AMD files antitrust case against Intel

[Sabrewulf165]

How about we all just ignore this guy and get back on-topic? He's obviously not here to debate the facts, but to argue about his fantasy-world where laissez-faire capitalism runs the show, and one giant corporation runs everything. Personally I'm getting tired of seeing this thread ruined by this guys gibberish and the consequent 3 pages of replies that he doesn't deserve.

This case will probably be a big deal to the parties involved, and I'm sure "geek" news sites will follow it, but does anyone think there will be much mainstream press coverage? If there is, it'd be free advertising for AMD.

 

[fuelvolts]

More if you are too lazy to read all 48 pages:

BTW - there is no statute of limitations - so dont go crying that this was soooo long ago

"14. In another underhanded effort to stifle AMD’s business, Intel decided in 1984 that,
the agreement between the parties notwithstanding, Intel would become the sole-source for the
promising 80386 chip. To fully realize its objective, Intel engaged in an elaborate and
insidious scheme to mislead AMD (and the public) into erroneously believing that AMD would
be a second source, thereby keeping AMD in the Intel “competitive camp ” for years. This
duplicitous strategy served a broader purpose than simply preventing AMD from competing
with Intel. Customers’ perception that AMD would continue to serve as Intel’s authorized
second source was essential to Int el’s aim of entrenching the x86 family of microprocessors as
the industry standard (as it had been essential to IBM’s original introduction of the PC). Intel
was well aware that if computer manufacturers knew Intel intended to sole source its 32-bit
product, they would be motivated to select alternative products produced by companies
offering second sources. Intel could not preserve the appearance that AMD would second
source the 386 if it terminated the contract or otherwise disclosed its actual intent. Thus, Intel
stalled negotiations over product exchanges, while at the same time allowing AMD to believe
that it could ultimately obtain the 386. This injured competition by deterring and impeding
serious competitive challenges to Intel and directly injured AMD by depriving it of the
revenues and profits it would have earned from such a challenge."

 

[fuelvolts]

This is what AMD is asking for:
(the big one is C and possibly F)


PRAYER FOR RELIEF
WHEREFORE, AMD PRAYS THIS COURT:
A. Find that Intel is wrongfully maintaining its monopoly in the x86 Microprocessor
Market in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act and award AMD treble damages in an
amount to be proven at trial, pursuant to Section 4 of the Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. § 15(a).
B. Find that Intel has made secret payments and allowance of rebates and discounts,
and secretly and discriminatorily extended to certain purchasers special services or privileges, all
in violation of California Business & Professions Code § 17045, and pursuant thereto award
AMD treble damages for its resulting lost profits in an amount to be proven at trial.
C. Find that Intel has intentionally interfered with valuable business relationships of
AMD to its economic detriment and award AMD damages in an amount to be proven at trial for
its resulting losses, as well as punitive damages, as permitted by law.
D. Grant injunctive relief prohibiting Intel and all persons, firms and corporations
acting on its behalf or under its direction or control from engaging in any further conduct
unlawful under Section 2 of the Sherman Act or Section 17045 of the California Business and
Professions Code.
E. Award AMD such other, further and different relief as may be necessary or
appropriate to restore and maintain competitive conditions in the x86 Microprocessor Market.
F. Award AMD attorney’s fees and costs of the action.

 

[pxc]

Da, comrades. Government equalizes all businesses.

 

[incomudro]

Intel needs to get knocked off there high horse anyways

 

[eno-on]

Da, comrades. Government equalizes all businesses.

LMAO.
Best post so far in this thread

 

[wtiger]

I wouldn't say equalizes. It can simply help to ensure a fair market; because a huge budget can easily trump another companies superior product and lets face it Intel has been seriously lacking ever since they introduced the netburst architecture.

 

[fuelvolts]

Da, comrades. Government equalizes all businesses.

EDIT: Take back the troll item

Without government intervention, monopolies would be everywhere - the consumer wins. AMD is allowed to grasp itself without intel being a bully. In the end you (the intel guy - from your sig) and me (an AMD guy and anti-trust law student) benefit bc both companies are forced to pour more money into research and development -

end result = better technology at lower proces

All I have to cite is the Standard Oil Anti-Trust Case of the 19th and 20th centuries. The end result was more competition in the Oil market and in the end, lower kerosene rates (huuge deal back then) and lower railroad fees (for both passenger and commercial rail usage).

This is a great day, only to be replaced when justice is served.

Btw, yes, I have read the whole thing with my Trust Prof and Micro Economic Theory prof - they concur that if this can be proven in a court of law, that Intel could be split into multiple corporations (see Standard Oil, Microsoft Hard/Software, Palm/PalmOne, etc.)

 

[rush24t3]

Yeah, well, great. Gamers will still buy AMD. The long-winded, "informed" threads here only seem to be a forum for certain posters to make sure everyone knows they're in college and/or law school. Congrats, now get back to fragging.

 

[Elios]

Another troll: without government intervention, monopolies would be everywhere - the consumer wins. AMD is allowed to grasp itself without intel being a bully. In the end you (the intel guy - from your sig) and me (an AMD guy and anti-trust law student) benefit bc both companies are forced to pour more money into research and development -

end result = better technology at lower proces

All I have to cite is the Standard Oil Anti-Trust Case of the 19th and 20th centuries. The end result was more competition in the Oil market and in the end, lower kerosene rates (huuge deal back then) and lower railroad fees (for both passenger and commercial rail usage).

This is a great day, only to be replaced when justice is served.

Btw, yes, I have read the whole thing with my Trust Prof and Micro Economic Theory prof - they concur that if this can be proven in a court of law, that Intel could be split into multiple corporations (see Standard Oil, Microsoft Hard/Software, Palm/PalmOne, etc.)

troll i thought it was funny you seem to have missed the <scarc> tags lol

but still a good post ^^

 

[fuelvolts]

Yeah, well, great. Gamers will still buy AMD. The long-winded, "informed" threads here only seem to be a forum for certain posters to make sure everyone knows they're in college and/or law school. Congrats, now get back to fragging.

I will bother:

It is nice when an uninformed poster makes a stab at a post (notice how I didnt insult your intelligence, so dont troll saying that I did)

Your generality is flawed, seeing is how I dont game (waste of time, too much reading for school), I just choose the best processor for the money.

Congrats,
now get back to a book and learn something (again, not a stab at your intelligence, just a statement, that everyone needs to be more informed - including me)

 

[fuelvolts]

troll i thought it was funny you seem to have missed the <scarc> tags lol

what are <scarc> tags?
sarcasm?

I'm a law student, I take everything for face value, how am I supposed to see the sarcasm? (bah! cant stand smilies)

 

[TekieB]

I'm still reading the 48 page doc, but wow, AMD sure has a case. They are really right in saying that it is "the linux of microprocessors" and I think its really funny that AMD finally called intel out on all the shady stuff thats been going on.

This just makes me happy i'm on an athlon 64 right now (/fan-boyism)

 

[SuddenDemise]

true, but there is a line you shouldn't cross. say you're being bullied on a playground. do you fight back, and possibly get in trouble too, or go to a teacher and try to get some administrative intervention? to me, the latter sounds like a better plan, especially if you're a scrawny kid (amd's low market share) who doesn't have much of a chance to win a fight.

I say beat the fuck out of the kid and take everything he gots, but hey thats just me.....

 

[fuelvolts]

I'm still reading the 48 page doc, but wow, AMD sure has a case. They are really right in saying that it is "the linux of microprocessors" and I think its really funny that AMD finally called intel out on all the shady stuff thats been going on.

This just makes me happy i'm on an athlon 64 right now (/fan-boyism)

I'm glad your reading, but fan-boyism is what is pissing me off (intel or AMD) - I am seeing this from alegality standpoint and the point of 2 independent profs

And I think that AMD isnt the Linux, it is the OS/2 back in the Win 3.1 days - it was a better OS than Windows, and it had more of a market share percentage than Linux has now - but I see your point

 

[pxc]

Another troll: without government intervention, monopolies would be everywhere - the consumer wins. AMD is allowed to grasp itself without intel being a bully. In the end you (the intel guy - from your sig) and me (an AMD guy and anti-trust law student) benefit bc both companies are forced to pour more money into research and development -

end result = better technology at lower proces

Smilies give an emotion/intention to the post.

I'll have a A64 3200+ tomorrow, so i'm not exactly an "Intel guy" (something that always makes me laugh since i've purchased more AMD CPUs than probably 99% of "AMD guys"). Strangely, I currently have 2 Intel systems in my sig exactly because each were cheaper ($1155 for the laptop w/ Go 6800 and $520 for the desktop) than equivalent AMD systems. I wish AMD had lower "proces". I'm cheap.

 

[FlatLine84]

Honestly, I don't care what happens, as long as I can get a good proc out of it. Intel has just been very good at buisness, and it's only been recently that AMD's product could truely out-preform. It almost always could when price was a factor though....

 

[fuelvolts]

Smilies give an emotion/intention to the post.

I'll have a A64 3200+ tomorrow, so i'm not exactly an "Intel guy" (something that always makes me laugh since i've purchased more AMD CPUs than probably 99% of "AMD guys"). Strangely, I currently have 2 Intel systems in my sig exactly because each were cheaper ($1155 for the laptop w/ Go 6800 and $520 for the desktop) than equivalent AMD systems. I wish AMD had lower "proces". I'm cheap.

See, I didnt know that - that is why debating on the internet is very hard bc emotions are limited to these stupid things: and so on.

BTW, I didnt start the argument, I am just making posts about the legality of it - AMD has a strong case and only the courts decide. Is it right to try to reach perfect fair market Equilibrium, we dont know. We have laws to protect the minority and the citizens/consumers affected. I like how not very many people complained about Microsoft getting sued in 1999, it is the same thing here.

 

[fuelvolts]

Honestly, I don't care what happens, as long as I can get a good proc out of it. Intel has just been very good at buisness, and it's only been recently that AMD's product could truely out-preform. It almost always could when price was a factor though....

But if these items in the case can be proven they have performed sneaky business that makes people hate the US style of economy and makes people in China/N Korea smile

 

[TekieB]

I'm glad your reading, but fan-boyism is what is pissing me off (intel or AMD) - I am seeing this from alegality standpoint and the point of 2 independent profs

And I think that AMD isnt the Linux, it is the OS/2 back in the Win 3.1 days - it was a better OS than Windows, and it had more of a market share percentage than Linux has now - but I see your point

I woudn't call it true fan-boyish, but I just like AMD's chips, and have been very impressed with what they have done over the past like 4-5 years i've been into computers. And the fact that they (for the most part, buying parts induvidually) are/were cheaper than the intel counterpart. And mostly have better performance.

I guess the guys that build there own systems don't have the pressure the tier 1 guys have from intel to use their chips.

(and BTW I have purchased 9 amd cpus, and aquired 3 more)

 

[Elios]

that reminds me if your read the end of the PDF it seems AMD is just looking for Intel stop then unfare tactics and the legelfees thats seems very small to what AMD coudl be asking for any just some thing i thought about

 

[fuelvolts]

I guess the guys that build there own systems don't have the pressure the tier 1 guys have from intel to use their chips.

I couldnt have said it better myself

 

[TekieB]

Toshiba thereupon dropped AMD. Its executives agreed that Intel’s financial
inducements amounted to “cocaine,” but said they were hooked because reengaging with AMD
would jeopardize Intel market development funds estimated to be worth $25-30 million per
quarter.

that just made me laugh

 

[Elios]

I couldnt have said it better myself

heh im going to opening my own PC shope in the next year or 2 and plan on carrying only AMD CPUs ^^ wonder if ill get a call from Intel

 

[Wrench00]

This has nothing to do with morality. Its all about ethics, there is no such thing as morality and economics its ethics and economics.

Any way I am a bit off topic but I think AMD is in more trouble. This sounds like a desperation attempt. I love AMD but I think AMD is in deep financial trouble. Lets face it their Memory production sucks they have been loosing money for how many quarters, you can only loose so much money before there is no more to loose. I honestly think this is an atempt to save the company and if FTC doesn't see it, they sure will have a monopoly on their hands when AMD retreats from the market.

 

[TekieB]

heh im going to opening my own PC shope in the next year or 2 and plan on carrying only AMD CPUs ^^ wonder if ill get a call from Intel

you WILL no doubt in my mind about it, I know a guy that runs a local PC store, that does mostly buisness systems, and intel gives him the same "bennifits" that they give the OEMS to stay intel only. He has privately told me that AMD is better for most things. Yet (at carrer day, lol) when somone asked him amd vs intel he fed them a bunch of BS like "AMDs run hotter (this was right after prescott came out) and they aren't compatible with windows"

 

[Elios]

you WILL no doubt in my mind about it, I know a guy that runs a local PC store, that does mostly buisness systems, and intel gives him the same "bennifits" that they give the OEMS to stay intel only. He has privately told me that AMD is better for most things. Yet (at carrer day, lol) when somone asked him amd vs intel he fed them a bunch of BS like "AMDs run hotter (this was right after prescott came out) and they aren't compatible with windows"

hehe good i can tell them to shove it my self then

and oh if was there too and didnt know the guy i would of called him on it lol

 

[jon_k]

Ah, communism at its finest.

I want to know exactly what Intel did that was 'illegal'. Remember folks, just because it's illegal doesn't make it wrong. This isn't about equal rights or anything along those lines. It's about AMD getting their panties in a wad and trying to disguise forced equality as equal rights. I believe that AMD currently has the better product. However, they have always had a hard time demonstrating this to the public. It is within their power. The ball is in their court. They've simply chosen to ignore it.

You don't think large under the table cash payments to computer manufacturers (DELL, HP, etc) is illegial? AMD has a clearly superior product, but they are getting strong armed out of the market because Intel has the funds to pull a stunt like that. Opinions like yours are against democracy, and against the idea of a fair and free economy. I hope intel gets drilled for this.

 

[fuelvolts]

This has nothing to do with morality. Its all about ethics, there is no such thing as morality and economics its ethics and economics.

Any way I am a bit off topic but I think AMD is in more trouble. This sounds like a desperation attempt. I love AMD but I think AMD is in deep financial trouble. Lets face it their Memory production sucks they have been loosing money for how many quarters, you can only loose so much money before there is no more to loose. I honestly think this is an atempt to save the company and if FTC doesn't see it, they sure will have a monopoly on their hands when AMD retreats from the market.

you may have a point, usually lawsuits do come from desperate companies - for competition, sakes, I hope AMD doesnt drop out. Something tells me that they will go down till nothing is left. But, my prediction is that AMD will win on most counts except the fact that they want economic losses

"award AMD damages in an amount to be proven at trial for
its resulting losses," C from Prayer (read the second to last page)

That could be billions of dollars - unlikely that it will be awarded. Although, courts usually side with the smaller person in cases like this.

Buy why have billions when you could have....millions.

 

[FlatLine84]

But if these items in the case can be proven they have performed sneaky business that makes people hate the US style of economy and makes people in China/N Korea smile

Welcome to the world of capitalism. We are only now seeing the downfalls of it, huge corporate entities, with class distances widening. Personally I happen to like it, because it is still based more on how successful the individual wants to become, and how they are willing to work for it. No free rides for anyone. At the same time, those that truthfully get shafted in life, disappear.

 

[pxc]

Hector Ruiz will be discussing the anti-trust complaint in about an hour (9:15am PDT): http://www.amd.com/breakfreewebcast

In completely unrelated news, following the loss this past quarter (-$0.06/share), the next 2 quarters forecasts are looking pretty bleak ($0.03/share and $0.06/share) for what typically has much higher unit sales (cough, rising cost of sales, cough).

 

[CodeWaste]

You guys need to realize that the 48 page PDF is a list of complaints, and has not been substantiated through corroboration from testimony.

As it stands right now, they are just allegations. Intel has nothing to worry about......yet.

However, through the course of the trial, (if it makes it to trial that is) if these allegations, especially the more serious ones are proven, then Intel will probably have to pay fines. All the naysayers that "OMG INTEL is in teh trouble D1E H4xors" really need to settle down. Intel will pay a fine, and it will have a negligeable impact on even their quarterly profits.

Also, This is different from an FTC complaint as this will take place in a court of law, and AMD has a chance to prove their case, instead of the FTC just poking around.

I was going to respond to a few of the other "choice" comments here, but ill wait until there are some more recent one's to play wtih.

 

[jbean7457]

that reminds me if your read the end of the PDF it seems AMD is just looking for Intel stop then unfare tactics and the legelfees thats seems very small to what AMD coudl be asking for any just some thing i thought about

I think it's a great way AMD is going about this. All they want is the ability to COMPETE with Intel in the OEM market. At this point, nobody is willing to upset and rock the boat with Intel as they can make their profits dwindle.. or cause expensive "late" shipments of processors and Mobos.

I usually don't get into these debates... but logo... man, you need to wake up and read up on all this "captialism" and "socialism" stuff, cause you got no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Elios]

Hector Ruiz will be discussing the anti-trust complaint in about an hour (9:15am PDT): http://www.amd.com/breakfreewebcast

In completely unrelated news, following the loss this past quarter (-$0.06/share), the next 2 quarters forecasts are looking pretty bleak ($0.03/share and $0.06/share) for what typically has much higher unit sales (cough, rising cost of sales, cough).

woot ill be watching
and i can start an IRC channel if any one want to talk about the stuff in it at the time
#AMD-Intel-Antitrust
on irc.rizon.net

 

[JL_Audio_User]

This has nothing to do with morality. Its all about ethics, there is no such thing as morality and economics its ethics and economics.

The field of ethics, also called moral philosophy, involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong behavior. They are intertwined

Any way I am a bit off topic but I think AMD is in more trouble. This sounds like a desperation attempt. I love AMD but I think AMD is in deep financial trouble. Lets face it their Memory production sucks they have been loosing money for how many quarters, you can only loose so much money before there is no more to loose. I honestly think this is an atempt to save the company and if FTC doesn't see it, they sure will have a monopoly on their hands when AMD retreats from the market.

Man read the freakin complaint before you post and learn WHY AMD is in the predicament they are in. It is atleast partly because of Intels unfair business practices.

 

[Joker76]

I think the main point here is that consumers are already losing out because AMD does offer superior products in the gaming and budget sectors. However, the consumers are almost forced into building their own if they choose to use AMD because major retailers are strongarmed into using Intel only.

The average person buying an XPS gaming system from Dell isn't given a choice. They are focred into buying an Intel based system when AMD can provide a superior gaming experience. This also hurts Dell because the informed consumers choose to go elsewhere because they do their research and see that AMD offers a better gaming CPU.

Alienware is the only major retailer that I know of which offers an equal amount of both Intel and AMD systems. I would be interested to see the breakdown of Intel vs. AMD systems sold by Alienware. That would speak volumes to people's decisions when they are actually given a choice.

 

[Elios]

I think the main point here is that consumers are already losing out because AMD does offer superior products in the gaming and budget sectors. However, the consumers are almost forced into building their own if they choose to use AMD because major retailers are strongarmed into using Intel only.

The average person buying an XPS gaming system from Dell isn't given a choice. They are focred into buying an Intel based system when AMD can provide a superior gaming experience. This also hurts Dell because the informed consumers choose to go elsewhere because they do their research and see that AMD offers a better gaming CPU.

Alienware is the only major retailer that I know of which offers an equal amount of both Intel and AMD systems. I would be interested to see the breakdown of Intel vs. AMD systems sold by Alienware. That would speak volumes to people's decisions when they are actually given a choice.

Falcon North West does to btw why does every one leave them out any way back to the topic lol

 

[ColinR]

Alienware is the only major retailer that I know of which offers an equal amount of both Intel and AMD systems. I would be interested to see the breakdown of Intel vs. AMD systems sold by Alienware. That would speak volumes to people's decisions when they are actually given a choice.

Further to this, I'd like to see whether Alienware or Falcon NW have been leant on by Intel.

On the other hand though, it's unlikely that either of these two shift enough units for Intel to be bothered. My workplace buys A LOT of Dells (standard PCs) and HPs (high powered workstations) and I doubt AW or FNW would be able to supply enough boxes to us and companies like us.

 

[Payne]

People will sell their souls to the devil after they see the $ sign with a lot of 0s in it...
Good luck AMD, I hope you get something out of this.

To those who think Intel has done nothing wrong, how about you get out of the hole in the ground you were sharing with Saddam Hussein.

 

[pxc]

To those who think Intel has done nothing wrong, how about you get out of the hole in the ground you were sharing with Saddam Hussein.

The relationship makes little sense, but the FTC cleared intel for many of the same retread complaints less than 2 years ago.

Ruiz's conference call @ http://www.amd.com/breakfreewebcast is starting now.