AMD Confirms Zen 3's Performance Is Monstrous and Speculation Thread

SPARTAN VI

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
7,717
Probably turn up empty. It seems like tech launches are getting worse with each release. Im also dreading the 6900xt launch as I must have one for my self.

Not directed at you, but on the topic of 'tech releases' being ruined by botters/scalpers/script-kiddies, I'd be a bit surprised if Zen 3 CPUs follow the same fate. Scalping processors just isn't as turn key as flipping video cards; we're talking about changing core components to accommodate Zen 3 whereas a RTX 30x0 can drop into virtually any platform. I'm sure some people will try to scalp it and artificially exacerbate scarcity, I just hope that since it's a little more niche than GPU flipping, that their efforts are in vain.
 

Mylex

Gawd
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
708
I wouldn't count on them dropping much for a year. Intel is going to have zero answer. AMD is officially in thunderbird territory again. AMD looks like they are going to win every single bench this time... including contrived useless to just about anyone low resolution high FPS gaming. Intel marketing switching to "lifestyle" branding in 3... 2... 1. lol

AMD is going to have no reason to drop pricing. We complained Intel had no real competition for years... and they coasted. Well now we have to live with the pendulum swing, AMD is not a price competitor anymore they are now in the dominant leader position. Unless Intel has some miracle part they can deliver in volume before xmas next year, it looks like its going to stay that way for awhile.
While I don't see many flaws in your thought process on the surface, I think you have to look at mainstream perception. Most not-Hards tie quality and premium cpu's with Intel. AMD's mindshare with them is going to be hard to change and I'm sure Intel is using any means to keep retail and large oem's to push their wares. We will know if the benches show them wiping that AMD is the better product and most with that knowledge will make their choice with that, but talking to mr blue shirt thats been trained to sell Intel because profit and or low returns is going to be a new bridge to cross.
 

nilepez

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
11,700
I wouldn't count on them dropping much for a year. Intel is going to have zero answer. AMD is officially in thunderbird territory again. AMD looks like they are going to win every single bench this time... including contrived useless to just about anyone low resolution high FPS gaming. Intel marketing switching to "lifestyle" branding in 3... 2... 1. lol

AMD is going to have no reason to drop pricing. We complained Intel had no real competition for years... and they coasted. Well now we have to live with the pendulum swing, AMD is not a price competitor anymore they are now in the dominant leader position. Unless Intel has some miracle part they can deliver in volume before xmas next year, it looks like its going to stay that way for awhile.
But will businesses jump on them? I recall the A64s being better than Intel, yet businesses continued to use Intel...and eventually Core 2 came out (which is when I switched back to Intel). Nevertheless, if I decide to build a new machine, I suspect I'll be switching to AMD. I have no brand loyalty.
 

chameleoneel

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
3,445
But will businesses jump on them? I recall the A64s being better than Intel, yet businesses continued to use Intel...and eventually Core 2 came out (which is when I switched back to Intel). Nevertheless, if I decide to build a new machine, I suspect I'll be switching to AMD. I have no brand loyalty.
pre-built brands continued to use Intel, because Intel was doing illegal stuff behind the scenes, to keep businesses buying Intel.
They were caught and AMD won in court.
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
But will businesses jump on them? I recall the A64s being better than Intel, yet businesses continued to use Intel...and eventually Core 2 came out (which is when I switched back to Intel). Nevertheless, if I decide to build a new machine, I suspect I'll be switching to AMD. I have no brand loyalty.
It will be a very slow rise, but it's a different world today and Intel has neither the grip nor mindshare to the extent it had before.
 

schmide

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
300
I would comfortably wait for the DDR5 gen with those components.

I've heard this for the past 2 years. The same way I heard it years before ddr4, 3, 2... None of those transitions were large bumps in performance. Comfortably? It could be almost year till any marginal introduction. If you can get 10-20 % today, why wait a year for another 10-20% ?

Edit: Additionally the move to larger unified L3 caches (AMD / intel), low latency L2s (ARM), and the preported mega caches of big navi, memory improvements may have diminishing returns.
 
Last edited:

NKD

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
8,183
I've heard this for the past 2 years. The same way I heard it years before ddr4, 3, 2... None of those transitions were large bumps in performance. Comfortably? It could be almost year till any marginal introduction. If you can get 10-20 % today, why wait a year for another 10-20% ?

Edit: Additionally the move to larger unified L3 caches (AMD / intel), low latency L2s (ARM), and the preported mega caches of big navi, memory improvements may have diminishing returns.

THIS! YOLO! I hate the wait game. Give me 20% uplift in IPC and take my money, heck even if that is ever year. That is how it works and how it should but I understand if some people don't have the budget, but even then its easy to sell the old CPU here and put the money towards new one. So you always recoup 50+% of your original purchase price anyways.
 

schmide

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
300
THIS! YOLO! I hate the wait game. Give me 20% uplift in IPC and take my money, heck even if that is ever year. That is how it works and how it should but I understand if some people don't have the budget, but even then its easy to sell the old CPU here and put the money towards new one. So you always recoup 50+% of your original purchase price anyways.

It's the value of the game. A new CPU drop in replacement is sofaking cheap compared to a CPUMBRAMPOS upgrade.
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
I've heard this for the past 2 years. The same way I heard it years before ddr4, 3, 2... None of those transitions were large bumps in performance. Comfortably? It could be almost year till any marginal introduction. If you can get 10-20 % today, why wait a year for another 10-20% ?

Edit: Additionally the move to larger unified L3 caches (AMD / intel), low latency L2s (ARM), and the preported mega caches of big navi, memory improvements may have diminishing returns.
Dropping $800 to go from ultra fast to a bit more ultra fast at 1080p, and gain probably nothing at higher resolutions, is just waisting money. Sure, go for it if you want, but at that point I don't see why he wouldn't get a 3090 as well.

It's not about DDR5 bringing a performance bump, it's about waiting for next gen to see meaningful improvements.
 

NKD

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
8,183
Dropping $800 to go from ultra fast to a bit more ultra fast at 1080p, and gain probably nothing at higher resolutions, is just waisting money. Sure, go for it if you want, but at that point I don't see why he wouldn't get a 3090 as well.

It's not about DDR5 bringing a performance bump, it's about waiting for next gen to see meaningful improvements.

You are assuming everyone uses computer for gaming. That is not the case.
 

schmide

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
300
Dropping $800 to go from ultra fast to a bit more ultra fast at 1080p, and gain probably nothing at higher resolutions, is just waisting money. Sure, go for it if you want, but at that point I don't see why he wouldn't get a 3090 as well.

It's not about DDR5 bringing a performance bump, it's about waiting for next gen to see meaningful improvements.

How is selling/gifting, dropping in, booting up. Not a meaningful improvement?

Are you really dropping 800? Throwing the old decent CPU in the trash!!!

Sure you pay a premium to stay at the top of the bubble but waiting and paying a premium for the next big ram is probably the worst value I can think of. (historically speaking)

In the end you're arguing for a marginal improvement a year later vs a marginal improvement now.

As for the 3090, I pretty sure any video card you get at any time will be a drop in replacement thus invalidating any wait and see complete new system. So moot. Can't get 3090 so mooter..
 

Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
1,317
I've heard this for the past 2 years. The same way I heard it years before ddr4, 3, 2... None of those transitions were large bumps in performance. Comfortably? It could be almost year till any marginal introduction. If you can get 10-20 % today, why wait a year for another 10-20% ?

Edit: Additionally the move to larger unified L3 caches (AMD / intel), low latency L2s (ARM), and the preported mega caches of big navi, memory improvements may have diminishing returns.
New generations of memory can offer some performance improvements but usually the biggest bumps occur after the standard has had some time to mature so it often doesn't really pay to be an early adopter on that. Early memory controllers tend to have issues and memory gets faster, cheaper, more stable, and in the case of DDR3 lowered the max voltage to meet new requirements making older DDR3 kits mostly useless on newer systems.

It's always tempting to jump on a newer standard for a build when possible but after dealing with early teething issues on DDR3 and to a lesser extent DDR4 I think I'd actually be tempted to wait until the new memory standard has matured a bit.
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
How is selling/gifting, dropping in, booting up. Not a meaningful improvement?

Are you really dropping 800? Throwing the old decent CPU in the trash!!!

Sure you pay a premium to stay at the top of the bubble but waiting and paying a premium for the next big ram is probably the worst value I can think of. (historically speaking)

In the end you're arguing for a marginal improvement a year later vs a marginal improvement now.

As for the 3090, I pretty sure any video card you get at any time will be a drop in replacement thus invalidating any wait and see complete new system. So moot. Can't get 3090 so mooter..
It's as if you haven't read my post before replying.
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
You are assuming everyone uses computer for gaming. That is not the case.
His post indicated gaming as the main focus. Other uses, of course, bear different considerations.
 

os2wiz

Gawd
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Messages
599
s anyone heard whether there is an increase in the FCLK for the news 5000 series chips so we could use DDR4 4000 memory at 1:1 ration. If it was not increased from 1800 to at least 2000 there would be a memory performance penalty for ram running above 3800 mhz. Any word on this from AMD???
 

Ready4Dis

2[H]4U
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
2,369
s anyone heard whether there is an increase in the FCLK for the news 5000 series chips so we could use DDR4 4000 memory at 1:1 ration. If it was not increased from 1800 to at least 2000 there would be a memory performance penalty for ram running above 3800 mhz. Any word on this from AMD???
I haven't heard anything official, but their 4000 series APU were hitting 4000+ memory with 1:1 (I thjnk. Hopefully this is the norm for 5xx0 series as well. I haven't heard anything official yet, but I'm hoping 2000 is about normal with some able to get higher. May just be my wishful thinking though, so in now way is this a real answer. That said, they were seeing 4400mhz with from 1:1 on 4700g, so I think 4000 should hopefully be a conservative bet. Obviously (as can be seen by wildly different results), ymmv.

Ps. The larger cache + ccx layout hopefully make it so the CPU isn't as sensitive to memory speeds, they will still obviously help but probably not as big a % difference as before. This will be load specific as well. Hopefully reviews do us some justice and test things like memory speeds/timing and performance.
 

Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
1,317
I just read that Asus isn't going to have a new BIOS for the 400 series boards to support these until January. :cry:

I was hoping to get something before then but I guess at least availability should be less of an issue by then.
 

schmide

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
300
It's as if you haven't read my post before replying.

I read your post.

Diminished returns, the value of video card vs CPU in the system, piece wise upgrades vs whole system upgrades. $800 and a unicorn 3090.

Long and short of all of this. DDR5 at this time and for the next year is off the table. I would even put it into 2022. 2023 if your attempting to chase the best metric upgrade.

If you want to argue for DDR5, make the case.
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
I read your post.

Diminished returns, the value of video card vs CPU in the system, piece wise upgrades vs whole system upgrades. $800 and a unicorn 3090.

Long and short of all of this. DDR5 at this time and for the next year is off the table. I would even put it into 2022. 2023 if your attempting to chase the best metric upgrade.

If you want to argue for DDR5, make the case.
You haven't understood it. I'm arguing for Zen4 if gaming is the main focus as upgrading from Zen2 now won't bring tangible improvements (other than low res high fps gaming).
 
Last edited:

sirmonkey1985

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
Joined
Sep 13, 2008
Messages
22,228
I just read that Asus isn't going to have a new BIOS for the 400 series boards to support these until January. :cry:

I was hoping to get something before then but I guess at least availability should be less of an issue by then.

all of them won't have it until January for 400 series.
I haven't heard anything official, but their 4000 series APU were hitting 4000+ memory with 1:1 (I thjnk. Hopefully this is the norm for 5xx0 series as well. I haven't heard anything official yet, but I'm hoping 2000 is about normal with some able to get higher. May just be my wishful thinking though, so in now way is this a real answer. That said, they were seeing 4400mhz with from 1:1 on 4700g, so I think 4000 should hopefully be a conservative bet. Obviously (as can be seen by wildly different results), ymmv.

Ps. The larger cache + ccx layout hopefully make it so the CPU isn't as sensitive to memory speeds, they will still obviously help but probably not as big a % difference as before. This will be load specific as well. Hopefully reviews do us some justice and test things like memory speeds/timing and performance.

wishful thinking because the APU's are custom monolithic dies while zen 3 am4 is using the same IO die and memory controller that zen 2 used. other than the cores, there's really nothing in the 4700g that's similar to zen 2 am4.
 

schmide

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
300
You haven't understood it. I'm arguing for Zen4 if gaming is the main focus as upgrading from Zen2 now won't bring tangible improvements (other than low res high fps gaming).

I understand it and have addressed it in multiple points. Even if you're arguing for Zen4, you said DDR5, both of which are years away.

I'll put the logic in stark terms. If any user was to consider getting Zen4 at launch, they are an early adopter and thusly qualify to make cusp upgrades like moving from a 3900 to a 5950 or a 2080ti to a unicorn.

Moreover, just to show how stupid this memory argument can be. Harken back to an extreme example from last year and read it this year.

3rd gen Threadripper, big fail and missed opportunity for AMD.

(snip)
AMD is missing a big opportunity here, no enthusiast will spend that much for a dying platform like TRX40, a platform that must die soon due to the USB4 and DDR5 arrival.
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
I understand it and have addressed it in multiple points. Even if you're arguing for Zen4, you said DDR5, both of which are years away.

I'll put the logic in stark terms. If any user was to consider getting Zen4 at launch, they are an early adopter and thusly qualify to make cusp upgrades like moving from a 3900 to a 5950 or a 2080ti to a unicorn.

Moreover, just to show how stupid this memory argument can be. Harken back to an extreme example from last year and read it this year.

3rd gen Threadripper, big fail and missed opportunity for AMD.
"DDR5 gen" is Zen4. I don't understand what you're arguing? That people should upgrade for no reason other than to upgrade to whatever is the latest just so they can have the latest even though it won't benefit them in a tangible way?
 

Axman

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
6,082
If you want to argue for DDR5, make the case.
5-10 percent or more performance gains guaranteed, new sockets, slightly better power efficiency.

If things are on schedule than DDR5 is 8 to 14 months out. I suspect it will be available right when AMD or Intel releases their flavor hardware for it, no sooner, no later.
 

schmide

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
300
"DDR5 gen" is Zen4. I don't understand what you're arguing? That people should upgrade for no reason other than to upgrade to whatever is the latest just so they can have the latest even though it won't benefit them in a tangible way?

0-20% is a reason. The only logic you should consider is, is it worth the cost of moving 3900 to 5950. You entertain the 2080ti to unicorn, but discount the earlier. Both are valid drop in upgrades that should be part of the conversation of a Zen3 launch thread.

Discuss what's on the table, not hypothetical unknowns years away. Only the engineers know what distant platforms will bring. I'm certain some would argue wait for ARM
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,159
0-20% is a reason. The only logic you should consider is, is it worth the cost of moving 3900 to 5950. You entertain the 2080ti to unicorn, but discount the earlier. Both are valid drop in upgrades that should be part of the conversation of a Zen3 launch thread.

Discuss what's on the table, not hypothetical unknowns years away. Only the engineers know what distant platforms will bring. I'm certain some would argue wait for ARM
0-20% is a reason, just not a very reasonable one for most, and even less so for gamers.
 

sblantipodi

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
3,566
I understand it and have addressed it in multiple points. Even if you're arguing for Zen4, you said DDR5, both of which are years away.

I'll put the logic in stark terms. If any user was to consider getting Zen4 at launch, they are an early adopter and thusly qualify to make cusp upgrades like moving from a 3900 to a 5950 or a 2080ti to a unicorn.

Moreover, just to show how stupid this memory argument can be. Harken back to an extreme example from last year and read it this year.

3rd gen Threadripper, big fail and missed opportunity for AMD.

zen 4 will arrive next year with DDR5 not years, a year away.
 

Axman

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
6,082
zen 4 will arrive next year with DDR5 not years, a year away.
I would be genuinely surprised if AMD releases Zen 4 in 2021. I think a Zen 3 refresh with higher clocks and DDR5 support with a Zen 4-compatible socket is more likely, if they do a DDR5 release in 2021.
 

sblantipodi

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
3,566
Usb 4 on motherboards, just around the corner. I guess all the deal breakers will end winter of 2021.
this is why I feel that zen3 is so damn good but so damn old in features.

Next step will be DDR5, USB4 and PCIe5.
I would like to have DDR5 and USB4 at least to make my PC live longer with longer upgrade path
 

Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
1,317
Intel still doesn't even offer PCIe 4.0, it's way too early to be worried about PCIe 5. Beyond that there's always something new around the corner so while it's worth taking into consideration when you're tight on the cusp of new tech it's easy to end up continually waiting for the next great thing if you get hung up on that.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
10,683
this is why I feel that zen3 is so damn good but so damn old in features.

Next step will be DDR5, USB4 and PCIe5.
I would like to have DDR5 and USB4 at least to make my PC live longer with longer upgrade path
Only high-end enterprise and mainframes are currently using PCI-E 5.0 at this point.
I don't believe any x86-64 equipment is running PCI-E 5.0 at this time, let alone any consumer non-enterprise equipment.
 

idiomatic

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Messages
167
Motherboard and RAM cost as much as the CPU, if I just flip the CPU I max out the motherboard for this generation, sell the solid CPU, get 4 extra cores, all of them a lot faster. Then sit tight for 3 or 4 years :p
 

SmokeRngs

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2008
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
16,687
zen 4 will arrive next year with DDR5 not years, a year away.
AMD has been working on an approximately 18 month cycle with Zen. Unless they massively rush Zen 4, there's no way it's going to show up before 2022. It wouldn't even make any sense to try to rush it since it would cut down the profitability of Zen 3 by putting out something new too soon.

The only possible reason to attempt to get a new architecture out before being ready would be massive competition from Intel and there are no indications that's going to happen anytime soon.

If AMD's preview is on the money and not just a few cherry picked benchmarks, AMD has little or nothing to worry about from Intel for the foreseeable future. There's only so much Intel can squeeze out of 14nm+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ and I'm pretty sure we've already seen it. Intel 10nm is dead in the water and Intel 7nm has already seen delays.

An almost 20% performance uplift by AMD is huge. Single core/latency performance for AMD should be at worst on par with Intel and likely a decent bit higher which was the only bastion Intel still had a lead. Take that performance uplift and apply it to anything multithreaded which AMD already had supremacy and you're going to see performance through the roof compared to Intel. If I can manage to get the needed cash, I'll upgrade to Zen 3 in a heartbeat to replace my 2600x. The multithreaded performance boost with much of what I do will be huge. My only hope is AMD reduces the $50 price increase on the 5600x as I think the increase is a bit too high for that SKU.
 
Top