AMD ATI Radeon HD 4870 X2 Preview

phas3d said:
I think the burden of proof falls squarely on your team's shoulders since the review makes references to final drivers potentially being better.
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If you took a baby who measured 2 feet and said someday the baby will be taller as it matures, would you demand proof? The [H] comments are based upon freaking common sense and years of reality. Right now there are NO released drivers at all for the 4000 series....only beta. I have a hard time recalling when any driver release update which hasn't helped games (as an average) improve performance. Therefore, it is pretty obvious that any formally released driver for the 4000 series (especially the 4870 x2) is bound to show improvements compared to previous numbers.

So, really the proof of burden falls to you to shows how your exception should be treated as the rule...no?
 
FYI, AOC is not the best to use for AA test, its very very buggy, also SLI is still kinda wacky as well.
I have been asking around for some time about seeing white dotted lines around the edges of stuff with AA on for some time, and no ones seamed to know what i was talking about, but in a few of the shots on this review you can see them, if you turn AA off they are gone.

Also alt+tab to change dirver settings resets the shader chash and will cause your FPS to go up, so if you take a SS, alt tab change a setting then come back in you might think you got better fps with the 2nd setting, but if you had alt tabed and not change the setting you would have got the higher fps any way.
 
Silent.Sin said:
Looks like your PSU would need a 6-pin to 8-pin adapter for one of those 6-pin PCIe outputs, but everything else should be kosher for 1 X2.
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Yup, I'm aware of that. I'm assuming some manufacturers will be including 8-pin/6-pin PCI-E adapters since there are a lot of us out here using capable power supplies with only 6-pin cables.

I'm also seriously considering a Corsair CMPSU-750TX as my power supply, the Enermax Liberty 620W is on the endangered list at JonnyGuru's site now. :p His initial review along with everyone else's on the internet was that this power supply was of very good quality and value. Then they started exploding not long after that. :p So JonnyGuru has demoted it to a tier 4 PSU :eek: Anyway, mine has been going strong for over two years without a puff of smoke, then again It would probably be better not to push my luck ...
 
honestjohn said:
JonnyGuru has demoted it to a tier 4 PSU :eek:
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I too have heard of the declining reputation of Enermax over the past few years. I had an Enermax 500W that was capable of running my old Koolance watercooled system with a Barton 2500+ @ 2.3, 9800Pro, and 1GB of RAM and that thing ran like a champ. The +12V was a tad low at 11.85 but it was stable. It eventually was too outdated to use in any upgrades because of lack of connectors so I retired it. What happened to that company? They used to be considered the top of the line. I even think they were just about the only "certified" PSU supplier for old Athlon systems for awhile there.

I'm using a Startech 430W Silent PSU now, those were on the level of the top notch PSUs about 2 years ago when I bought it, just not well known. That thing suffers from the same problem my old Enermax did though, it just wouldn't be able to handle a whole system upgrade without a plethora of adapters at this point, plus I'll be looking for a system that will need more juice :D. I'm on an aging S939 platform, upgrading is still probably a year down the road or so...however long my 3850 can carry me at 1440x900 really and so far no game has shown the need for more at that res (besides..well, you know).
 
Silent.Sin said:
I too have heard of the declining reputation of Enermax over the past few years. I had an Enermax 500W
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SS, Enermax is still making great PSU's, it was just my particular model which belongs in a 4th of July Celebration. :p The Enermax Liberty 500w, the next model down in the line was a completely diiferent story, no real issues at all and no fireworks either. You should see the Newegg feedback on mine. :eek:

Now to bring it back on topic before we get slammed for thread jacking, Just ordered the Corsair 750TX (+12V @ 60a) at Buy.com this afternoon so I can feed the HD4870X2 properly. I always recommend people buy Corsairs for their quality and price, now it's time to take my own advice.
 
Good read. Thank you!
I hope official WHQL drivers are released soon. I'm running my HD4870 on the 8.7b's with no problems. I'm eagerly waiting to see how AMD tweaked the AA performance so much.
 
So it probably wouldn't be very smart for me to run a 4870x2 on my HX620 I guess... Too bad I want one of these cards but I can't go through all of that upgrading for a card.

Not to mention i'm sure there are drawbacks to having PCIe1.1, this bad boy looks like 2.0 would be appreciated.
 
Decko87 said:
So it probably wouldn't be very smart for me to run a 4870x2 on my HX620 I guess... Too bad I want one of these cards but I can't go through all of that upgrading for a card.

Not to mention i'm sure there are drawbacks to having PCIe1.1, this bad boy looks like 2.0 would be appreciated.
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it should be fine on a PCIe 1.1 board. the bandwidth difference just doesn't mean much after a point. you might lose a little but we are only talking about a couple of frames, there is another thread on this here

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1326282
 
Decko87 said:
So it probably wouldn't be very smart for me to run a 4870x2 on my HX620 I guess... Too bad I want one of these cards but I can't go through all of that upgrading for a card.

Not to mention i'm sure there are drawbacks to having PCIe1.1, this bad boy looks like 2.0 would be appreciated.
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From everything I have read in the previews, this thread and others the HX620 would run a single card without issue. In addition Pcie 1.1 will run the card just about as well as Pcie 2.0. The difference is marginal at best. Again thats from reading around here and other places. Its when you add a second card and are confronted with something like 16x and 4x for the 2nd slot where you run into problems.
 
Lets bring my results from stuff.


I got 2 systems, the below, had a 5600 + b4 ;)

this was what i tested it all with ;)

PC1:
1x5600+ (stock 2.8 ghz 90 NM windsor 2mb cache)
1x 3870x2
1x Gigabyte MA790FX-DQ6
pair of Mushkin PC9200 5-4-4-12
ppc 750 watts(dual 1500watts total)
All running about 2170 mhz.

PC2:
1x 4400+(STock 2.2 ghz 2mb Toledo core)
1xDFI lanparty-ut NF4-sli Venus.
Pair of ocz pc4000 3-2-2-5(ran it at that)
1x 3870X2.

I tested 3dmark and World in conflict.

3dmark score PC1 9600
3dmark score pc2 8999
Cpu score was alike, couldnt be more alike.

World in conflict:
AVG fps 26 on PC1
19 on PC2.

I also noticed better gameplay on pc1, I cannot confirm its the PCi-e 2.0 that does this, or if it is the chipset that is far better, my memory speeds was almost alike, 6.7 gb/sec vs 7.2 was what i could do with not too much work.

Anyways, my experience with 3870X2 on the old system was acceptable, but still way more stable on new system.

Since almost everything was matched in terms of performance, both amd x2 both 90 nm both 2mb cache, almost same memory speed, same vga, same psu's.
diffrence is 939 vs am2 and Nf4 vs 790FX!.

Chipset+Pci-E 2.0 does this ? cannot confirm, but just thought it would be nice to see how my tests and experience with this is.
 
AtkinS said:
Lets bring my results from stuff.


I got 2 systems, the below, had a 5600 + b4 ;)

.
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Those are some big system differences. From everything I have read and just a quick glance at those 2 systems all your speed differences are certainly not due to pcie 2.0 vs 1.1. Maybe 2-3 FPS would be though and that would be consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

Those are not similar system specs imo. Those CPU's are different by a good deal, the memory is also. I would bet the old system has a slower hard drive as well no? The only tests that are really valid for me is a system in exactly the same configuration with the only difference being a 1.0 or 1.1 motherboard vs a motherboard with 2.0 pcie. CPU and memory certainly need to be in the same family and clocked the same. Also for me personally I would want a fresh OS installed to do the testing with the exact same background stuff running for the tests. This is just how I view results like that. Maybe 2-3 of those FPS loss could be due to Pcie 2.0 vs 1.1? I guess so but not 7fps
 
not even close, as posted above the systems are very different. PC 1 had a much better processor, (that is why its labeled +5600 vs 4400) and your running DDR2 vs DDR1 and its on a 790FX chipset.
 
I realize that this was just announced on monday... but as a general rule, for "later in the summer" releases... are we talking august-ish here? or are we looking more at a september/october release?

Also, just a ballpark -- when looking at the comprable Nvidia card, I saw that it was about $550. So does anyone have any estimates on how much this mother will cost? I'd think in the $500ish range, since ATI has a tendency to run a little lower than Nvidia. But I'm askin here, since some of you probably have a more intimate knowledge of this type of stuff than I do :) (I'm a bit out of the loop)
 
Denamian said:
I realize that this was just announced on monday... but as a general rule, for "later in the summer" releases... are we talking august-ish here? or are we looking more at a september/october release?

Also, just a ballpark -- when looking at the comprable Nvidia card, I saw that it was about $550. So does anyone have any estimates on how much this mother will cost? I'd think in the $500ish range, since ATI has a tendency to run a little lower than Nvidia. But I'm askin here, since some of you probably have a more intimate knowledge of this type of stuff than I do :) (I'm a bit out of the loop)
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Think it's been pretty much confirmed for a mid-August release. Final pricing has not been confirmed. It was rumored to be released at the $550 pricepoint, that was before the 280 was reduced to $500. Considering the performance is generally above that of a 280 they could stick to the $550 plan and the price would be justified.
 
Silent.Sin said:
Think it's been pretty much confirmed for a mid-August release. Final pricing has not been confirmed. It was rumored to be released at the $550 pricepoint, that was before the 280 was reduced to $500. Considering the performance is generally above that of a 280 they could stick to the $550 plan and the price would be justified.
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Excelent! Thanks for the info on the date.

I would love to see them put it competatively priced (who wouldn't? lol) -- but I guess either way is not a huge deal.

Ty again!
 
ZerazaX said:
4870x2 on a HX620 should be no problem
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yeah i was wondering the same thing. looking at what Kyle posted tho we HX620 users should be fine. roughly 500w at system load. 75-80% load. putting the psu to good use.
 
How about 2-4870x2's in my sig system with three fewer hard drives and an ABS BZ-series 900W?
 
Dethred said:
How about 2-4870x2's in my sig system with three fewer hard drives and an ABS BZ-series 900W?
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If you need 2 4870x2's, go for it.
I cant see much need for 2 though except for Crysis maybe.
Every other game will run admirably at 2560 res, high AA with a single 4870x2.
 
My goodness! Apples-to-apples comparisons... certainly makes for a more well-rounded review, but I don't see why only two games where tested -- not even good ol' 3dmark.
 
noc_81 said:
My goodness! Apples-to-apples comparisons... certainly makes for a more well-rounded review, but I don't see why only two games where tested -- not even good ol' 3dmark.
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All the sites were limited to four games max for this preview I believe, and the [H] philosophy is not to bother with games that do matter, like HL2, in that the game is easily crushed buy any of these next gen games at maximum in game settings at 2560x1600. Frame rates over 60 per second become marginal.

I can hit 300 FPS in Source games and the only reason I know is because FRAPS told me so. High average frame rates are great, but after a while they don't mean a whole lot.
 
Thanks for the great preview and the good read. I'm excited as all heck for ATI right now. Nice to see them come back and KICK BUTT.
 
Silent.Sin said:
Think it's been pretty much confirmed for a mid-August release. Final pricing has not been confirmed. It was rumored to be released at the $550 pricepoint, that was before the 280 was reduced to $500. Considering the performance is generally above that of a 280 they could stick to the $550 plan and the price would be justified.
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Considering you can pick up a GTX 280 for under $450 now, I'm wondering if this will drop the 4870 X2's price a bit. If the GTX drops anymore before the release (and it probably will), and the 4870 X2 stays at $550, nV will be tempting.

Also, the GTX 280/260 55nm, rumored to be ready early September, should lower prices even further on the nV cards ($400/$300?)

In any circumstance, it's win-win for the consumer.
 
harmattan said:
In any circumstance, it's win-win for the consumer.
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Absolutely. With the prices changing daily, price/preformance ratios are hard enough to keep track of. Comparing unreleased card's rumored prices to market prices today gives you a number that is worthless. :)
 
harmattan said:
Also, the GTX 280/260 55nm, rumored to be ready early September, should lower prices even further on the nV cards ($400/$300?)

In any circumstance, it's win-win for the consumer.
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I sure as hell hope they don't take the same path with their product naming scheme that they did with the 8800 series with die shrinks and just leave it to the market to sort things out. If it's a different core, call them something else for cryin out loud. You've also got to think that AMD knew a die-shrink from NVidia was on the way for the GT200 and probably has a card or two left to show beyond the 4870X2 if necessary. What will AMD's answer to the GT200b be?

I'm sure investors aren't liking the pricing game NVidia is playing ($11.41 on google right now) but I sure do.
 
:rolleyes:
Silent.Sin said:
I sure as hell hope they don't take the same path with their product naming scheme that they did with the 8800 series with die shrinks and just leave it to the market to sort things out. If it's a different core, call them something else for cryin out loud. You've also got to think that AMD knew a die-shrink from NVidia was on the way for the GT200 and probably has a card or two left to show beyond the 4870X2 if necessary. What will AMD's answer to the GT200b be?

I'm sure investors aren't liking the pricing game NVidia is playing ($11.41 on google right now) but I sure do.
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I believe that the current GPU line up had zero to do with the stock dropping. :rolleyes: It had to do with laptop malfunctions. http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=116466&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1171738&highlight=

Nice review [H].
 
snoops said:
:rolleyes:

I believe that the current GPU line up had zero to do with the stock dropping. :rolleyes: It had to do with laptop malfunctions. http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=116466&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1171738&highlight=

Nice review [H].
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You honestly think investors don't care about lower profit margins on their current product line vs. the margins they were at before the price drop? I'm well aware of the loss due to defects, but the unplanned price slashing didn't exactly raise investor confidence either.
 
Silent.Sin said:
You honestly think investors don't care about lower profit margins on their current product line vs. the margins they were at before the price drop? I'm well aware of the loss due to defects, but the unplanned price slashing didn't exactly raise investor confidence either.
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you might be wrong about that. nvidia igp's are standard issue components in both lenovo and apple laptops. these two manufacturers comprise pretty much the bulk of deployed end user machines in silicon valley among the large corporations, so a lot of sys ops managers are running around trying to figure out much of their inventory is effected by this problem.
 
Silent.Sin said:
You honestly think investors don't care about lower profit margins on their current product line vs. the margins they were at before the price drop? I'm well aware of the loss due to defects, but the unplanned price slashing didn't exactly raise investor confidence either.
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Sure they do. Maybe not as much as AMD eating a $1 billion this quarter though.
 
Hey Brent, no reply?

Well, I'll back it with a statement about CSAA:

"Right now, CSAA seems to have all of the advantages: no blurring, little to no performance penalty, and CSAA modes are accessible as an option in many newer games." -Techreport.com http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14934/8

As with most other hardware review sites, it is widely acknowledged that 16x (not 16xQ) CSAA offers a nice visual improvement at "little to no performance penalty."

Are you sure that you were talking about 16x and not 16xQ?
 
cannondale06 said:
overclocked at 1280x960 I can get an average of about 35-45 with occasional drops of course. 1024x768 is a little better though.

heres a stock 8600gt getting 36fps at 1280x1024. http://www.gamespot.com/features/6183967/p-4.html

also according to that you should be getting much better fps with your card. maybe the agp slot is holding the 3850 back?
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Is more of a system bottleneck than AGP, currently there's no card available in AGP that can saturate the BUS, in reviews around the web using a simulated AGP (PCI-E @ 8x) only very few games lost between 2 and 5fps due to bandwidth starvation and was the 8800GTX which is more powerful and more dependant to texture power.

It could be a driver issue, DirectX issue, sound issue, also the RAM timings are too lose for DDR1. Heck, I was able to play COD 4 with my old X1950XT at 1024x768 with 4xFSAA and never dipped below 30fps, it stayed most of the time at 50's. And I did that when my Pentium M was running at 2.46GHz
 
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