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AMD and Nvidia Must Do More To Stop Shortages and Gouging

So if production was to be ramped up, how much more production would be needed to satisfy demand? I would only see it being a linear path, more cards made, more cards sold, more money being made in bitcoin altcoins. And if they spin up manf, I am sure it's going to make it that much more difficult to switch to the next process when a new architecture comes along as everything will need to be retooled. I am quite sure there is a balancing act in there of market demand to current manf yield to cost to adapt to a new process. If we bulk up in one area, it will impact the other two.
 
davethehedgehog said:
All the FUD articles and half-thought through forum rants posted on HardOCP won't change that.
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Right back at you.

Meanwhile, I'm going to stick with basing my expectations on what has happened with literally every other bubble, every other time throughout the history of the entire world...right down to people insisting that "this time is different."
 
bugleyman said:
I meant the PC market as a whole. If you can't buy a graphics card, then maybe you just don't build a computer at all, which hurts everyone. Over time, that damage could add up.

I'm not saying I agree, just that I believe that is the argument.
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Microcenter by me is only selling GPUs to customers doing complete builds for anywhere near msrp. Single card? 1400 for a 1080ti today. 900 for a 1080 etc. Guy there says they were losing 40% of sales since people walk out instead of building 2k machines due to no gpu to buy. The retail impact of related pc hardware is real IMO. Also in store only on everything better than a 1030. No reserving beforehand and open box cards are 2xmsrp.
 
cybrnook said:
So if production was to be ramped up, how much more production would be needed to satisfy demand? I would only see it being a linear path, more cards made, more cards sold, more money being made in bitcoin altcoins. And if they spin up manf, I am sure it's going to make it that much more difficult to switch to the next process when a new architecture comes along as everything will need to be retooled. I am quite sure there is a balancing act in there of market demand to current manf yield to cost to adapt to a new process. If we bulk up in one area, it will impact the other two.
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Oh I agree. I think the issue for them is that if they do ramp up production, there's a danger it goes too high and they need to drop prices to sell inventory. I'm quite sure they love the fact they can charge $3000 or whatever it was for the most recent Titan.

It's like when I get way too much business for my work. I've always been told it's a "nice problem to have", and for me it is. It's less nice for the customers I need to tell I'm not available for. Yes, there's the risk they go elsewhere and I lose business, but why would I care when I've got a pipeline of 6 months of business and a buffer of 6 months of income on top of that. I could recruit someone to pick up the slack, but why bother when I'm making a killing, it's risk I don't need to take.
 
Hagrid said:
I am sure they are thinking of ways to stop miners from making their cards fly off the shelf......
Why make lots of money when you can make only a little bit.......
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I'm sure they are trying to separate the 2. No, I don't want nvidia or miners to suffer. Let's them make all the money they want just leave gamers out of it. Where is the common sense? People are just suddenly ignorant for the sake of just trying to piss others off or something. No, miners can mine, Nvidia can make all the money they want ... no problem. Just separate gamers away from all of that. It can be done
 
davethehedgehog said:
Oh I agree. I think the issue for them is that if they do ramp up production, there's a danger it goes too high and they need to drop prices to sell inventory. I'm quite sure they love the fact they can charge $3000 or whatever it was for the most recent Titan.

It's like when I get way too much business for my work. I've always been told it's a "nice problem to have", and for me it is. It's less nice for the customers I need to tell I'm not available for. Yes, there's the risk they go elsewhere and I lose business, but why would I care when I've got a pipeline of 6 months of business and a buffer of 6 months of income on top of that. I could recruit someone to pick up the slack, but why bother when I'm making a killing, it's risk I don't need to take.
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Bu the argument in this thread is what do you do when the business you are living in right now, and the forecasted business for the next 6 months is met. Then the business you "would have" then had afterwards has now moved on...... :) Oh, and the Titan V's are perpetually sold out as well at 3k :) bananas.
 
TheHig said:
Microcenter by me is only selling GPUs to customers doing complete builds for anywhere near msrp. Single card? 1400 for a 1080ti today. 900 for a 1080 etc. Guy there says they were losing 40% of sales since people walk out instead of building 2k machines due to no gpu to buy. The retail impact of related pc hardware is real IMO. Also in store only on everything better than a 1030. No reserving beforehand and open box cards are 2xmsrp.
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I do happen to personally believe it is real...I just thought the point stood either way.
 
TheHig said:
Microcenter by me is only selling GPUs to customers doing complete builds for anywhere near msrp. Single card? 1400 for a 1080ti today. 900 for a 1080 etc. Guy there says they were losing 40% of sales since people walk out instead of building 2k machines due to no gpu to buy. The retail impact of related pc hardware is real IMO. Also in store only on everything better than a 1030. No reserving beforehand and open box cards are 2xmsrp.
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Metro Detroit? :) I see the EVGA 1080ti's up there for $1499 too :)
 
SixFootDuo said:
I'm sure they are trying to separate the 2. No, I don't want nvidia or miners to suffer. Let's them make all the money they want just leave gamers out of it. Where is the common sense? People are just suddenly ignorant for the sake of just trying to piss others off or something. No, miners can mine, Nvidia can make all the money they want ... no problem. Just separate gamers away from all of that. It can be done
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If they can make miner cards that out perform gaming cards, then yes.
 
cybrnook said:
Bu the argument in this thread is what do you do when the business you are living in right now, and the forcasted business for the next 6 months is met. Then the business you "would have" had has now moved on...... :) Oh, and the Titan V's are perpetually sold out as well at 3k :) bananas.
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12 months is a long buffer to have in that case for me. I suspect the same is true for AMD/NVidia, but they will have a hell of a lot more than 12 months! Also, they've got so much other business than gamers. They've got compute, AI, AV AND the consoles that everyone will escape to if they don't buy PC GPU's. When console gaming inevitably goes 100% cloud driven, who's going to be selling the GPU's driving that?

It's sad, I've been PC gaming for 25 years now. I don't think it's disappearing by any means, but I suspect it will eventually go the way of everything in this industry. Cloud.
 
bugleyman said:
Now that surprises me, since it implies the constraint isn't the GPUs themselves (and by extension the underlying FAB capacity). Is it really the case that board vendors can't slap cards together fast enough?
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What it says is even less GPUs are being used to make consumer cards
 
rgMekanic said:
What it says is even less GPUs are being used to make consumer cards
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That as well, buy why? Maybe just to cut out the middle-man and improve ROI? Again, it seems unlikely that the supply constraint is anything other than GPU fabrication...
 
BSmith said:
I can, personally, tell you there are 13 new computer systems NOT being built until RAM and video card prices come down. That number will grow.

Sorry ASUS, Seasonic, GSkill, Corsair, Seagate,...and others.
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This.
 
bugleyman said:
Now that surprises me, since it implies the constraint isn't the GPUs themselves (and by extension the underlying FAB capacity). Is it really the case that board vendors can't slap cards together fast enough?
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No. Is more cost effective to sell GPUs direct in bulk. The mining companies are building stripped down cards specific to their needs, and writing drivers that are sometimes producing up to double the hash rates we see on WHQL drivers. The cost to the miner is lower in terms of hardware.
 
bugleyman said:
That as well, buy why? May just to cut out the middle-man and improve ROI? Again, it seems unlikely that the constraint is anything other than GPU fabrication...
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Off the top of my head, a company might build their CPU's, GPU's, memory and PCI bus onto a single boardand remove the whole cpu/motherboard/psu setup that normies like me have to deal with.
 
davethehedgehog said:
Off the top of my head, a company might build their CPU's, GPU's, memory and PCI bus onto a single boardand remove the whole cpu/motherboard/psu setup that normies like me have to deal with.
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Makes sense, thanks. I clearly underestimated how sophisticated mining operations have become!
 
Well, it seems we're well and truly screwed, at least for the time being. Here's hoping the hobby can survive crypto... :(
 
Retailers like newegg are never going to sell cards at msrp if they can get triple for it the day the stock comes in. Newegg would have to start cancelling contracts to keep prices artifically low, or create so much supply that it can handle the current demand, which will never happen either. It's a shit situation for gamers, and unless something dramatic happens with mining, it's not going to change anytime soon.
 
I was going to build a new system this year but with all the Intel CPUs being borked and this, I doubt it.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
A large portion of this is countries under trade sanctions using cryptocurrencies to bypass those sanctions. They have resources, even poor countries can get engineering done. It would be interesting to see where those farms are.
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So...gamers are competing for GPUs against rogue nation states? :eek:

At this rate, by the year 2025 the global GDP will consist of (1) GPUs for mining, and (2) Netflix original series. :p
 
scojer said:
Why don't they make a card JUST for mining?
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These exist. People generally don't want them due to lack of features, and really small warranties for not enough of a real discount. I also heard you have to order them by the hundred or so. "Gaming" GPUs also have resale value.
 
lol

no, no they don't

all the market will bear motherfuckers, what part of supply and demand do you not understand?
 
I wish I could find the article again, but the argument was being made that AMD/Nvidia indeed are not too happy with the current situation. Yes, they are selling their cards. However, they are being sold to people with zero loyalty to their company and once the bubble pops, will offload metric fuck-tons of cards into the used market for as cheap as they can. This creates a two-fold problem for the companies:

1) Immediate loss of income as they will need to lower prices on new cards in order to compete with the glut of used cards that will hit the market (look at what happened to AMD the last time BTC crashed)
2) This affects long-term projections as both companies realize their gamer consumers are generally pretty loyal customers (I admit I am - I haven't bought AMD in almost 15 years and have been Nvidia-only since the original GeForce was released). This shortage may cost them some of that loyalty and thus purchases of their products at the current premiums, forcing potential long-term drop in pricing in order to get gamers to start buying again.

So yes they are making bank right now, but both companies are worrying about the mid to long-term affects of this current purchase craze.
 
image.png
Until this is affected Nvidia isn't doing squat
 
davethehedgehog said:
I think everyone's looking at this the wrong way round. What they need to do is release a version of their product that's better for mining than graphics cards. Tweak the memory and CPU to give better hash rates. Perhaps research into models that can help streamline the process of buffering blockchains. Sell them with specific coolers and fans that last longer. Charge a modest premium and at the same time decrease the ROI time sufficiently so that the cards are more efficient. Make interesting features, like "profiles" for specific algos. There's a million ideas that could be used
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cybrnook said:
But then they would have to invest in a new arch for mining, then still wait in queue in the same manf facilities to get the chips made, and then send to the same AIB's to assemble.
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They have been doing that for nearly a year now. "Mining Edition" cards with Samsung DRAM memory chips, no bling-bling, and no display ports. Seems to me manufacturers switching over portion of production to mining dedicated units is big reason we are seeing a shortage of gaming cards right now.

58213_01_sapphire-announces-mining-edition-radeon-rx-cards.jpg
 
dj_spanmaster said:
It does feel completely disingenuous for them to send out samples for review at this and other sites, then have nothing available on hand for the enthusiasts to purchase. Like, using site reviews to prop up the price and demand even further, completely unnecessarily. Manipulative.
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Sites have zero influence on MSRP when the core demand comes from mining.
 
magoo said:
LoL........the gaming market is a priority.......right behind cash money and our bonus checks.......what crap.....

Neither company gives a total shit about PCs, gaming or anything else..........their GPUs are flying off the shelves in tractor-trailor loads.....

Demand>supply. Simple economics.

Since there is no competition and no alternative, neither company should worry.
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While they are selling out of every chip, the price of their chips is the same as day 1. It could be the AIB card makers, distribution centers, or resellers that are @#$%@#% you on price, NOT AMD or NVIDIA.
 
Doesn't AMD want to sell Ryzen chips? Not sure how many gamers are starting completely new Ryzen rigs now.
If they flood the market with gpus now and watch the crypto crash tank their gpus, then it would still be a great time for a flood of new Ryzen rigs to go with the used video cards. Hit Intel hard for market share while they are down.
 
Gigus Fire said:
on what grounds can someone call out a corporation for purposely not creating enough supply and driving up demand?
Isn't that what practically tons of other companies do? When's the last time i saw an article lambasting nintendo from doing this for it's previous 3 generation of consoles?
Does nvidia/amd have any obligation to meet the demands of the consumers?
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If they collude to control manufacturing with all the other players available to raise average selling price, that is called "Collusion" Collusion is a no-no under RICO and Hobbs Act
 
So if Nvidia (and possibly AMD) are now secretly on the side selling bulk GPUs to the big mining firms, that may mean before long the mining companies do to all the other cryptocurrencies what they did to Bitcoin and the difficulty rates get shot up so high that once again the big (mostly Chinese) mining companies control the market by virtue of controlling the biggest share of processing / transaction settling capability.

While some would think that would make the gamers happy, most likely there will still be fewer GPU chips available on the market as the big mining concerns would have standing orders / demands for the best of the chips.
 
The only things really holding me back from selling off my 6700k system to build a new one is the price of ram and video cards :(
 
James21 said:
While Nvidia and AMD may not be making any More money per card from this shortage, they are most definitely not making Less money.

Without the crypto mining craze, AMD would have to be discounting their highest end video cards at this point in the product cycle to keep people buying them.
Nvidia would also probably have to be offering lower prices / rebates / bundled stuff as well to keep sales going.
The mining craze is making sure that AMD & Nvidia don't have to cut prices to compete with each other nearly as much as both sell all they can.

Right now they can sell as many as they have in stock and as many more as come through production at their full asking price & if anybody wants a discount they can say no and move to the next board making partner.
They can then have the option of running the stock down to near 0 at full price before the next generation ships
That in itself is a huge plus.

You can be sure Nvidia hugely cares about selling enough cards to miners as when they pulled their BS stunt about not letting the GeForce cards be used in Datacenters due to "software licencing" changes, they specifically said it's allowed to use them as much as you want in a Datacenter as long as it's for crypto currency mining.
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While I personally LOATHE Nvidia's tactics, the reason this might be is because standard GeForce cards are not built for data center operating environments leading to an excess of premature failure. By making the customer buy a special version they can offset their price loss due to excess number of failures.
 
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