AMD 6850 and 6870 released, October 18

Dizon248 said:
Ahh, yeah I'd have to agree with you on that in this particular case, because they are actually behind on the usual update for a smaller process. That should make for an exciting next generation of cards to come if both companies are currently being bottlenecked by their current process (40nm).
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I don't know that they're necessarily being bottle-necked. ATI's theoretical numbers here show that you can make moderate gains on the same process. I just imagine that the industry is realizing there's a balancing act where at some point it becomes worth the investment in a new process instead of pursuing the tail end of an asymptotic curve on improving a particular process. Intel and both AMD and nVidia seem to be hitting that tick-tock methodology.
 
Dizon248 said:
Speaking of the process shift, I've heard that architecture matters more than just process shift. Speaking from nVidia's history, we see shifting processes matter much less than architecture changes. We saw substantial gains in performance when nVidia did architectural changes vs process shift.
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Sort of. There are three things happening.

Process shift: Transistors shrink. If this is all you do, you just get a smaller cheaper chip. This is usually what happens first.

Massive Transistor increase: This is enabled by the process shrink, this is where the big performance jumps of ~100% happen. Once this step happens at a given process, easy gains dry up.

Architecture changes: These happen periodically and are tune ups, new Dx features, rebalance of unit counts. These are usually very small performance changes. This is what 6 series and it sounds like AMD might be gaining 20%-30% from unit rebalance. Which is very large for this type of change but dwarfed by the ~100% jumps from transistor counts doubling in full process steps.

Look back at any of the really big performance jumps and they all came from massive increase in transistor counts that you get from the process shrink.

As noted above: 40nm - 28nm Jump is a full node, which should be another massive jump in performance once it is accomplished.
 
Snowdog said:
Sort of. There are three things happening.

Process shift: Transistors shrink. If this is all you do, you just get a smaller cheaper chip. This is usually what happens first.

Massive Transistor increase: This is enabled by the process shrink, this is where the big performance jumps of ~100% happen. Once this step happens at a given process, easy gains dry up.

Architecture changes: These happen periodically and are tune ups, new Dx features, rebalance of unit counts. These are usually very small performance changes. This is what 6 series and it sounds like AMD might be gaining 20%-30% from unit rebalance. Which is very large for this type of change but dwarfed by the ~100% jumps from transistor counts doubling in full process steps.

Look back at any of the really big performance jumps and they all came from massive increase in transistor counts that you get from the process shrink.

As noted above: 40nm - 28nm Jump is a full node, which should be another massive jump in performance once it is accomplished.
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Hmmm, looking back at the table I linked, you're right. There is a huge correlation between transistor count and performance, much less the process shift. Didn't notice that process shift =/ increased transistor count immediately and thought that what accounted for the performance increase was actually architectural changes.
 
Snowdog said:
Architecture changes: These happen periodically and are tune ups, new Dx features, rebalance of unit counts. These are usually very small performance changes. This is what 6 series and it sounds like AMD might be gaining 20%-30% from unit rebalance. Which is very large for this type of change but dwarfed by the ~100% jumps from transistor counts doubling in full process steps.
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This is the interesting point because it seems the shift from 5D (4+1) to 4D didn't happen, leaving me wondering where the gains are coming from.
 
Snowdog said:
What indicates it didn't?
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People have pointed out on the die picture from the leaked slides that the ALUs seem to have a distinct 4+1 appearance (4 slim units and 1 fatter one). I believe the slides are somewhere in this thread.
 
I doubt they changed the shader too, but their front end was tweaked apparently. For one, the dispatcher is split into two, so its scheduling may be much improved.

Of course, what remains to be seen is if Cayman went to 4D

AFAIK though, with 32nm cancelled, its likely this incarnation of NI is a hybrid of Evergreen family + the original NI family, and the full architecture change wont occur until 28nm's cards are ready
 
anexanhume said:
This is the interesting point because it seems the shift from 5D (4+1) to 4D didn't happen, leaving me wondering where the gains are coming from.
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Now that I think more about it.

What gains??

6870 > 5850. but the 5850 is the cut down chip and the 6870 runs at 25% faster clock speed (725MHz vs 900MHz). It should be faster even without an architecture tweak. Now I am thinking it is still 5D with minimal tweaks giving maybe 5%.

It looks like most of the "gains" in this case are from the big jump in clock speed. You would likely be better off with a close-out deal on an overclock-able 5850.
 
Less SPUs, less TMUs in a smaller die that consumes the same max board power while bringing more performance. I think you may be putting too much emphasis on clocks when accounting for performance increases. I'm sure there will be someone testing a 6870 versus a 5850 at identical clock speeds.
 
Clocks dont scale linearly, so you can't make a 1:1 comparison (for that matter, functional units don't scale either, otherwise a 5870 should be 2x 5770s performance)
 
ZerazaX said:
Clocks dont scale linearly, so you can't make a 1:1 comparison (for that matter, functional units don't scale either, otherwise a 5870 should be 2x 5770s performance)
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Given zero CPU/Memory bottlenecks, both extra functional units and clock speed scale linearly, but obviously in many games you will be CPU limited or Memory limited etc...

But you can get very close:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2947/6
1920x1200 scores:
5870: 54.7
5770: 28.7
 
Apparently someone in Germany got their hands on some 6870s and is selling them. Benchmarks posted.

http://translate.google.com/transla...241537-41-verkaufe-radeon-6870#t17807&act=url

gb4p-8.jpg
 
Cipherr said:
Then that sounds like your personal expectation being out of whack, Im pretty sure noone expected the sole purpose of these cards to be to drop the price on a 460. That may have been what you wanted, but dont project onto others if it looks like it wont happen, its not AMD's job to lower the price of a competitors card you want. Its their job to release an attractive product, and they are succeeding here.


They ARE releasing cards with good bang for the buck. Right now I can buy a Asus 5850CU for $264 on newegg, Or I can wait until friday and buy a 6870 which performs closer to a 5870 than it does a 5850 for around $264 or so.

Ummm....yeah, thats nothing but great for me. Nothing but great.
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despite your tone it looks like I, as well as others, were right about expecting price cuts. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1555556


Word on the street is that NVIDIA is changing UMAP pricing on the GTX 460 1GB and the GTX 470 for the better, from the consumers perspective anyway. Expect to see some fairly big price drops in the next couple of days that will bring both the cards down to previously unheard of prices. The drops on the GTX 470 will turn it into what will likely be a very well received enthusiast "sweetspot" card. The 460 looks like it will likely not fare so well on the "value meter" after Friday morning though and just how far it will fall from greatness will certainly be balanced out with how low its price goes. Bottom Line: The GTX 460 1GB and 470 are going to be getting cheap this week.
 
Are these cards going to be able to do triple monitor without resorting to the Display Port bullshit? That would actually make up for this release apparently not being anything more than the ATI equivalent of the G92.
 
Matrices said:
Are these cards going to be able to do triple monitor without resorting to the Display Port bullshit? That would actually make up for this release apparently not being anything more than the ATI equivalent of the G92.
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There are still only two active output ports, so the third display will have to use DisplayPort.

As for this being like G92, it isn't. Nvidia with the G92 did nothing more than put the exact same GPU on a slightly redesigned PCB and slapped a new sticker on it. Barts is a new piece of silicone, that while still sharing the basic design of Juniper and Cypress, shows actual improvement in performance and efficiency.

The actual price of these cards is going to be very important when it comes to influencing public opinion. If the keep the 6870 price in the $240-250 range, it's going to offer great performance per dollar. The whole numbering fiasco is making people want to believe that Barts is replacing Cypress, when that's being left to Cayman.
 
Thanks for the information.

The absence of a third RAMDAC is disappointing, but to be honest I can't complain about the performance increase being an incremental one. Who the hell needs the performance leap anyway?

The only reason I went from 260 SLI to 470 SLI was to run a triple monitor setup. There is simply almost nothing out there that requires more than even a single ATI 5870 for 95% of the resolutions gamers use.

At some point - that is to say, now - the reality of PC graphics hardware development had to run straight into the wall of the reality of PC software development. And the reality of the latter has run straight into the wall of console-first game development for five years now.

Improvements in efficiency and price are more important to the market at this point than improvement in speed. Will probably stay that way until the Xbox 720/PS4.
 
New name structure = brilliant movie for AMD especially if Barts 6870 has that killer price/performance ratio.

Now we know why alot of Nvidia fans have been on their recent moral crusades for all those poor poor uninformed average Joes in the depths of Best Buy.
 
needmorecarnitine said:
posted in the main video forum by Kyle but not mentioned here yet, the GTX 460 1GB and GTX 470 have price drops coming:

http://hardocp.com/news/2010/10/20/big_price_drops_on_nvidia_cards_coming


Maybe they won't announce them till Friday but I'm sure AMD can at least guess somewhat close. And hopefully every review will have the new price in the comparison/conclusion.
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I mentioned it earlier on the previous page in a reply to someone. ;)

cannondale06 said:
despite your tone it looks like I, as well as others, were right about expecting price cuts. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1555556


"Word on the street is that NVIDIA is changing UMAP pricing on the GTX 460 1GB and the GTX 470 for the better, from the consumers perspective anyway. Expect to see some fairly big price drops in the next couple of days that will bring both the cards down to previously unheard of prices. The drops on the GTX 470 will turn it into what will likely be a very well received enthusiast "sweetspot" card. The 460 looks like it will likely not fare so well on the "value meter" after Friday morning though and just how far it will fall from greatness will certainly be balanced out with how low its price goes. Bottom Line: The GTX 460 1GB and 470 are going to be getting cheap this week."
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didn't notice that.


Looking at this:

"The 460 looks like it will likely not fare so well on the "value meter" after Friday morning though and just how far it will fall from greatness will certainly be balanced out with how low its price goes."


and assuming that is exactly what Kyle meant, suggests that those $270 postings are either fairly far off from the msrp or that the performance is a lot higher than what most people are expecting. And when he says that the 470 will fall into the enthusiast "sweetspot", $200 is what comes to my mind. I don't think it will drop to $200

I'm thinking that he is exaggerating a bit with the use of "big" in the title. I was assuming that the 1GB version would drop from the current $219 to $199 and I don't consider 10% to be big. I consider 25%+ to be big. But maybe he is right and I'm wrong...
 
Forceman said:
Hmmm. So the 6870 is running neck and neck with the 460 1GB. Wonder if the 460 was overclocked? In any case, pricing is going to be key.
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Not exactly neck and neck...the 6870 (or 6850?) was run with a Phenom II x4 940 @~3 GHz.

The one from Anandtech was run with an i5 750@ ~4GHz.
 
AMD is going to lower launch prices by about $20 across the board for 6850 and 6870.

http://www.techpowerup.com/133109/N...60-and-GTX-470-to-Counter-HD-6800-Threat.html
sources close to AMD told us that in response to this development, the red-team will fine-tune the final pricing of the Radeon HD 6800 series, to step up pressure on the competition. We expect as much as $20 to be cut on the currently expected prices of the Radeon HD 6800 series pair.
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It's almost as if AMD planned to do this all along and was waiting for Nvidia to take the bait to drop their prices. Oh, and expect prices of the 6870 to come down quickly even after this initial pre-release price drop. Initial batches of cards will be made with 8 layer PCB boards, but later models will be made with the much cheaper 6 layer PCB boards.
 
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Matrices said:
The absence of a third RAMDAC is disappointing, but to be honest I can't complain about the performance increase being an incremental one. Who the hell needs the performance leap anyway?
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The new Eyefinity SL DP->DVI adapters did wonders. :)

You'll be pleased to know that its a big performance leap. The 6800 series doesn't replace the 5800 series, but the 5700 series. Cayman/6900 series will be the new single GPU highend cards. This video explains the 6000 numberings:

AMD 6 Series Cards Explained (6850 6870 6950 6970)
 
cannondale06 said:
funny how a lot of the things I was flamed for saying are now being accepted.
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You were not flamed. People didn't react upon you expecting a lower GTX 460 price when the 6000 series were launched, but when you complained about AMD not pricing the 6000 series low enough so that people could get cheap gtx 460's :p
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036316881&postcount=661

Those who complained also expected a price drop, but others don't hold AMD responsible for Nvidia pricing GTX 460's high.
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036316959&postcount=672
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
The 6800 series doesn't replace the 5800 series, but the 5700 series. Cayman/6900 series will be the new single GPU highend cards. This video explains the 6000 numberings:

AMD 6 Series Cards Explained (6850 6870 6950 6970)
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It looks like it will not replace the 5700 series but exist along side it (until a new midrange gpu comes out). And a video showing someone giving their interpretation of the reasons behind the names is just a fancier version than reading someone's opinion here. I'm sure AMD will explain it and its position tomorrow.
 
needmorecarnitine said:
It looks like it will not replace the 5700 series but exist along side it (until a new midrange gpu comes out). And a video showing someone giving their interpretation of the reasons behind the names is just a fancier version than reading someone's opinion here. I'm sure AMD will explain it and its position tomorrow.
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Thats true. It doesn't seem that the 5700 will be replaced this year. :)
But, for all intents and purposes, the 6800 series have replaced the 5700's market segment.
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
You were not flamed. People didn't react upon you expecting a lower GTX 460 price when the 6000 series were launched, but when you complained about AMD not pricing the 6000 series low enough so that people could get cheap gtx 460's :p
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036316881&postcount=661

Those who complained also expected a price drop, but others don't hold AMD responsible for Nvidia pricing GTX 460's high.
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036316959&postcount=672
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look through some of the other posts that are still left. I made a point of saying that the 6870 was really basically a replacement for the 5770 and took crap for that. I said that the 6870 needed to be below $270 to really match the gtx460 in price performance and took crap for that. I said that many were expecting price reductions on the gtx460 and took some crap for that too.

in the end pretty much everything I said was accurate. the cards are not going to be $270 and ATI is wanting the price performance sweet spot enough to adjust pricing in response to Nvidia now lowering prices.
 
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