AG Coating Paranoia - The Official Thread

XoR said:
isn't this one of three wide-gamut monitors with A-TW and the only one without nasty dithering? :confused:

probably U think NEC 2490WUXi is the best but it's just sRGB and have worse contrast ratio so can't really be "the best" :rolleyes:


it's worse:
- it have much worse contrast ratio = washedout image at night
- panel without A-TW = IPS glow attacking from every side
- also have annoying green-flickering
- even sRGB mode is worse (more deltaE on colors)
- have "slight operating noise" even when there is usb key in usb port...

LG had only "good" rating because bundled calibrator that is useless for that screen. But what's the problem to buy good calibrator for price difference? :confused:

This EIZO is feature-wise on level of NEC PA241W but much more expensive...
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Pardon my offtopic in this thread but... you have to take prad "rating" with a grain of salt. You'd better try to take something rational from their reviews than to quote their "ratings" blindly.
Than you need to understand that LG does not produce good monitors.
I wouldn't compare it with the NEC 2490WUXi - different leagues.

If these quite obvious things are not obvious for you - go ahead and buy it.
It will be funny.
 
All of the high end models use aggressive AG coating, also remember most of them are older which further reinforces my "educated," guess.

Only a few of the 2011 models from LG like the AOC/Eizo FS2332 IPS models allegedly use less AG according to the linked reviews.
 
I can't, for the life of me, understand why people who edit photos professionally do not complain about agressive AG coating. It makes pictures look grainy.

@albovin
Forgive me my ignorance, but why do other manufacturers manage do make good monitors with LG panels and LG itself doesn't? I know there is more to a monitor than just the panel itself, but even though...
 
If you can notice anti-glare coating your monitor is too close to your eyes.

60cm distance is my bare minimum recommendation for people with good eyesight. Any closer and not only will you see AG coating but you will also start to see the thin lines between individual pixels which is a great way to ruin image quality.
 
I sit 60-70cm away and I can see it....

Also it is not a matter of good eyesight. Gaming 3ft (90cm) away from a 23" kills the immersion.
 
@albovin
this NEC is very good monitor but worse @:
- homogeneity
- contrast ratio (especially after calibration and with ColorComp)
- sRGB coverage (95% WTF?)
- out of box deltaE
- after calibration deltaE (blue still not corrected so need for CMS aware programs to show proper sRGB content)
- input lag (33vs 23ms)
- lacks AdobeRGB

these quite obvious things are obvious for me :rolleyes:
LG sticker is fine with me. Thanks for concern ;)

@NCX
I searched for specification of panel used and found Surface: matte, Hard coating (3H) :(
though I can live with that :eek:

@katabatik & 10e
as soon as I get it I'll try to evaluate it's coating and colors compared to popular u2410 :)

ps. @NCX
bad black levels and smearing already killed immersion compared to CRTs ;)
 
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katabatik said:
I can't, for the life of me, understand why people who edit photos professionally do not complain about agressive AG coating. It makes pictures look grainy.
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Simply because it does not and never did make pictures grainy.

@albovin
Forgive me my ignorance, but why do other manufacturers manage do make good monitors with LG panels and LG itself doesn't? I know there is more to a monitor than just the panel itself, but even though...
Click to expand...

Same thing with Samsung PVA panels.
There are high end, low end and no name brands (in monitors).
 
XoR said:
@albovin
this NEC is very good monitor but worse @:
- homogeneity nonsense
- contrast ratio (especially after calibration and with ColorComp) same as other IPS
- sRGB coverage (95% WTF?) nonsense - has never been a problem
- out of box deltaE nonsense - has never been a problem
- after calibration deltaE (blue still not corrected so need for CMS aware programs to show proper sRGB content) nonsense - has never been a problem
- input lag (33vs 23ms) yes - about 30-33, 23 - no reliable tests
- lacks AdobeRGB this is a PLUS for 99% users

LG sticker is fine with me. Thanks for concern ;)
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WG monitors are out of scope (except a few NEC models and probably a couple of Eizos).

Nevertheless happy shopping.
There is a certain drive in buying cheap products for crazy money.
 
albovin said:
Simply because it does not and never did make pictures grainy.
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I beg to differ. For me, the grain of the AG coating in uniform, white areas, is quite visible.

XoR said:
I searched for specification of panel used and found Surface: matte, Hard coating (3H) :( though I can live with that :eek:
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That is the same coating has U2412M and U3011, so it will be grainy, at least to me. :(
 
katabatik said:
I beg to differ. For me, the grain of the AG coating in uniform, white areas, is quite visible.
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Yes, for me too. Because it is visible on massive static uniform white background.
Not on colored pictures, not on motion pictures.
That's why AG coating is not and never was an issue for anything but text work where massive static uniform white backgrounds) are involved.
 
AG coating is visible on anything with light colors, especially games and movies. It's not logical for AG coating to only affect whites since you are putting grainy plastic over top of your display. It is logical for some one not to notice, but since they don't they really shouldn't be going around spreading misinformation especially when they consistently pretend to know-it-all.

http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Atacama_Desert

Playing the above level on a monitor with aggressive AG coating was very realistic, it was if I too was in the desert during a sandstorm and my glasses were being blasted with sand.

GOW3comparison006.jpg


GOW3 on the PA238Q: It seemed like the game had in-game film grain enabled similar to what Left 4 Dead and Mass Effect offers. Gears of War 3 does not have a film grain option.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i432/240hzTeslaStorm/Asus PA238Q/Untitled.png

From the movie The Shrine. Again it was as if a film grain feature was enabled, especially in the above picture. Looked like they used 3200 ISO setting to film the above scene.

Infamous: Festival of Blood
ifob014.jpg


Can't notice it in most dark scenes except in this above picture. Details on the moon were lost to the solid grain effect.
 
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@albovin
NEC: (there are also vertical bars indicating backlight flicker)
nec-2490-schwarzwert2.jpg


LG:
lg-w2420r-schwarz2.jpg


NEC@600:1 (backlight uniformity correction enabled)
nec-2490-ausleuchtung1-thumbnail.jpg


LG@900:1
lg-w2420r-ausleuchtung-thumbnail.jpg


LG A-TW @work
lg-w2420r-glow.jpg


nonsense - has never been a problem
problem or not LG have none of those issues with sRGB even if it's WCG = better

this is a PLUS for 99% users
good sRGB emulation make WCG good and desirable feature. More and more cameras support aRGB nowadays

WG monitors are out of scope (except a few NEC models and probably a couple of Eizos).
NEC and EIZO don't even have interesting 24" WCG monitors as there is no A-TW in their offerings. Best monitors from those companies have cheap old U2410 panel with medicore contrast ratio and there are issues with bleeding (RGB-LED in LG can't have them at all!) and green flickering...

So is there single proof to invalidate statement "it's superior to every other 24" LCD"? No? Then let's end this OT shall we? :)

@NCX
Details on the moon were lost to the solid grain effect.
aren't we little exaggerating? :confused:
if anything caused details to be lost is bad gamma in bright levels (too little change in brightness level) or you setting bad hdmi levels ;)
 
albovin said:
A good post in the right thread.
This is AG Coating Paranoia thread.
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To be honest no one really gives a shit about your personal opinion on ag coatings, and this thread is completely unnecessary. The general consensus is that harsh ag coatings are shit and next to no one likes them. They're a problem and it's always, always valid to ask whether a display has a harsh AG coating or not in that display's respective thread. This one shouldn't even be here and should have been removed the moment it was created.

Your constant insults in this thread towards those who don't appreciate your beloved grainy coatings are nothing short of trolling at best.
 
For me its like sugar or fine crystaline frost.. and very noticeable on any solid planes of color, as well as text and edges of text. I have acute eyesight for detail. If it doesn't bother you it doesn't mean its not there.

This thread is just going in circles now. Just go back to page one and start over because we keep saying the same things over and over , and then 2 - 8 days later someone new shows up , most likely not reading the whole thread let alone any of the other threads discussing this issue and drops a stereotypical flat comment supporting one side or the other - and everyone starts repeating themselves again more or less. Most of the prior information seems washed out almost like a short term memory condition, probably because people don't care to read it. Its getting old repeating same theme over and over just to ride the current page crest and re-refute whats already been counter-pointed many time in the same thread. :rolleyes:

And of course I will always bring it up when anyone asks in any other thread just like any myriad of other display tradeoffs, which for me on this issue o-a-AG is a con. That whole presumption of censoring a topic from all other threads is insolence.
 
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I have a U3011 and while I would prefer less/no AG coating, the upsides of the monitor far exceed the minor AG annoyance. I also have a Toshiba 63" DLP television from ~2006 which has AG coating on it. Again, I can see it but it does not "ruin" the image for me and at least on the TV I am thankful it is there since the lighting conditions vary drastically in my living room.

Conversely, I purchased an iPhone 4S and a friend gave me one of his extra screen protectors. It had REALLY strong AG on it. I took it off after about 2 days as it was completely destroying the image.

So there is a point where AG becomes too much even for people who are normally quite tolerant of it.
 
XoR said:
So is there single proof to invalidate statement "it's superior to every other 24" LCD"? No? Then let's end this OT shall we? :)
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:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

No you didn't girlfriend! How dare you insult the reference monitor!

XoR said:
@NCX
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Gamma was actually to low @2.00 so if anything there would be more detail. CT was 6500k brightness 120cdm/2. I know the AG hides detail because I have a CRT, light AG and glossy display which I can compare images with. All calibrated.

elvn said:
.
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You are right, this thread should be locked.
 
XoR said:
NEC, LG, etc
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Three things.
1. I am not going to discuss WG anymore.
sRGB emulation cannot be good.
sRGB emulation must be 100% only.
Otherwise sRGB emulation is unacceptable.
RGB LED monitors (and any other WG monitor with exception mentioned above) have never been confirmed to have 100% sRGB emulation.

2. Prad.de review of the NEC 2490WUXi happened to be their major failure to the point of disqualification.

3. I am not going to discuss the NEC 2490WUXi. This is the best LCD monitor ever produced by this industry. This is not a monitor to discuss, it's a monitor to grab whenever possible.

4. Best of luck with your LG.
 
steal said:
The general consensus is that harsh ag coatings are shit and next to no one likes them. They're a problem and it's always, always valid to ask whether a display has a harsh AG coating or not in that display's respective thread.
Click to expand...

This is actually the problem with this thread. The general consensus is not that "harsh ag coatings are shit and next to no one likes them." It's a firmly held position, but probably a minority position. It's not easy to find reliable evidence one way or the other, but there have been polls here at Hardform and on other sites, all of which indicate a preference for antiglare coating. I've articulated many times that I prefer monitors with antiglare coating -- I like the AG on my 27" 2560x1440 more than the milder coating on my Samsung f2380 monitors, though I like the f2380s as well.

The anti-AG crowd simply doesn't seem to understand that their poreferences aren't universal, and that what they see as a defect, others see as a liability. Coming into a useful discussion on a new monitor, like the zr2740, and crapping on the thread by denouncing the monitor as "shit" is really irritating.

The problem here is so much inexplicable uncertainty surrounding the issue. The types of antiglare need to be named (or the names need to be publicized), and manufacturers or owners need to state the type of AG early in the discussion.

If the anti-AG crowd wants more monitors introduced without AG coating, you guys should pursue options to make that happen. Petition a manufacturer, talk to some of their reps here on the forum, call customer service and articulate your position. Demonstrate that there's demand for the product. I've offered to help with this in the past, but no one has taken me up on the offer.

I'm going to be getting a glossy screen here shortly, as I need a touch-screen, and they almost all have protective glass covering the panel.
 
they do if their friend wants a glossy nvidia 3D monitor, which there is only 1 of
 
Size doesn't=immersion. I gamed on a 46" before discovering input lag. My 1440p Samsung 850 has been shipped.

Filling your field of view+display height are the most important things along with picture quality. Distracting display flaws like ghosting/phosphor trailing, banding, flickering and aggressive AG coating kill immersion.
 
I'm in the camp of, I can notice it only when I remember to notice it, but doesn't bother me. I'm on a ZR30w, which seems to have slightly less than the U3011.
 
sRGB emulation cannot be good.
Click to expand...
We should go a bit in detail regarding this point. Color transformations themselves are initially unproblematic. The whole ICC worklflow, including high accuracy softproofing tasks (which can be carried out with todays LC-screens and their large color gamut), would be fundamentally flawed as well as any signal processing (regardless which native gamut the displays has)... fortunately we don't have to worry - there are no inherent flaws (although the devil is in the details). As long as matrix profiles are involved and the target gamut is larger than the source gamut we even need only simple matrix calculations (with gamut mapping it gets more complicated but there's no magic). The output will be very precise if the display is charcterized correctly and behaves linear enough.

Todays flexible color space emulations offered for example by NEC or Eizo achieve a high accuracy as well. The current implementation of NEC even allows a "valid" simulation (that means without an error "pass through" because of under-coverages) of color spaces larger than the native display gamut. In this case there will be some clipping of course - just like in an accordant ICC workflow. Other display manufacturers in the high-end sector also offer comparable simulation possibilities for color accuracy in an unmanaged environment (e.g. Quato). A 3D-LUT helps but is no requirement. All these simulations are based on a fixed basis condition. That means there will be some drifts over time but we must keep in mind that all displays underlie those drifts. Eizo allows a gamut update on some newer CG models but one could also adapt the simulation target self in other cases.

All these simulation functions, as well as fixed presets, must be implented with care to avoid problematic nonlinearities.In the SOHO sector a well implemented (!) fixed sRGB mode (instead of a flexible emulation) can be a satisfactory feature to avoid "candy-colors" - preferably the gradation-characteristic also reaches sRGB to enable a valid representation of the mid-tones (unfortunately this is very rare).

More and more cameras support aRGB nowadays
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We can go a step further. With RAW developing you are completely "free" respectively only dependent on the RAW converter. Apart from AdobeRGB, ECI-RGB 2.0 is an interesting aim, especially because of its visual perceptive gradation.

Best regards

Denis
 
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hpppp2.jpg

this is shot of HP LP2480zx and judging from reflections strength it's AG have to be much weaker than on hard AG U2410. So probably all A-TW screens have medium AG :rolleyes:

@albovin
1. whatever...

2. What's wrong with their review? :confused:
This NEC obviously isn't perfect and showing flaws of tested products isn't "failure" but proof that their reviews are trustworthy.

3. whatever...

4. Thanks :)
 
AG versus AG, two same technology panels, different vendors.

One Samsung, one LG, which one is which?

agversusagshowdown20111.jpg
 
Is a non-glossy monitor the same as a glossy one + AG?
Is a glossy monitor comparable to a CRT monitor?
Is the AG 'issue' limited to IPS panels?
 
NCX said:
All of the 30" 1600p displays have low contrast (greyish blacks) and aggressive matte AG coating which makes whites+light colors look grainy/dull.

When you watch a movie it can look like they used the 3200 ISO setting to film it and in games that don't have a film grain option it will seem as if they do and you won't be able to change it. If you are after image quality avoid IPS panels except for the Apple Cinema Display.
Click to expand...

...
 
cvgd said:
This is actually the problem with this thread. The general consensus is not that "harsh ag coatings are shit and next to no one likes them." It's a firmly held position, but probably a minority position. It's not easy to find reliable evidence one way or the other, but there have been polls here at Hardform and on other sites, all of which indicate a preference for antiglare coating. I've articulated many times that I prefer monitors with antiglare coating -- I like the AG on my 27" 2560x1440 more than the milder coating on my Samsung f2380 monitors, though I like the f2380s as well.

The anti-AG crowd simply doesn't seem to understand that their poreferences aren't universal, and that what they see as a defect, others see as a liability. Coming into a useful discussion on a new monitor, like the zr2740, and crapping on the thread by denouncing the monitor as "shit" is really irritating.

The problem here is so much inexplicable uncertainty surrounding the issue. The types of antiglare need to be named (or the names need to be publicized), and manufacturers or owners need to state the type of AG early in the discussion.

If the anti-AG crowd wants more monitors introduced without AG coating, you guys should pursue options to make that happen. Petition a manufacturer, talk to some of their reps here on the forum, call customer service and articulate your position. Demonstrate that there's demand for the product. I've offered to help with this in the past, but no one has taken me up on the offer.

I'm going to be getting a glossy screen here shortly, as I need a touch-screen, and they almost all have protective glass covering the panel.
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Very good post, and I'm in total agreement.

I would actually like to contact LG Displays and see if we can enact change, or some sort of influence on their choice of crappy anti-glare.

After seeing Samsung's first (noble) but less-than-stellar IPS/PLS panels, I'd like to see if we can get LG to change the one characteristic that people don't like on their panels.

quantum112 said:
Having never owned either, I'll guess that the Samsung is the first one.
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The first one is the Samsung S27A850 and the second a Dell U2412M. I wasn't trying to create a "trick question" here I was simply trying to photograph the effect to some level to give an idea.

In terms of 24" and their dot pitch the anti-glare coating does little to change things, but with the higher PPI 27" the anti-glare coating of the Samsung being smoother/lighter does make a legibility difference IMHO.
 
I am only going to reply to the first (OP) post:

I have an NEC 20WMGX2 on an Ergotron LX arm, with a Dell U2211H monitor underneath it.

I have total light control in my room - no sunlight can get in!

All I can say is that I love the NEC's glossy coating. Text is so clear and easy to read, that I put it on my Ergotron so I can use it in Portrait orientation for long reading sessions.

The Dell is a pain to read text on, but works well for gaming (low input lag, inexpensive).

That is all.
 
Dell U2312HM (AG) + Asus VG236 120hz (glossy) owner here. While the color reproduction & viewing angles are superior on the Dell, the difference in clarity that the glossy screen on the Asus provides is enough to make me loathe reading text on the Dell. The U2312HM is being used strictly for movies/photoshop at this point as I just can't stand the grain for anything else. I am looking into removing the coating on the Dell, a friend showed me some pictures of his and they look on par with Apple Cinema displays in the after shots.
 
Why can't dell make glossy versions of UXXXX ? The AG coating is too strong, I dont like it AT ALL, I had to return my monitor because Its fucking everywhere. Bless those with bad eyesight that can't see it, enjoy your monitors, looks like It's going to be a while before I can, not that keen on removing the coating for 700 euro monitor and no warranty after that.
 
I agree with the general consensus that 2010 and onward Dells have too strong AG coatings.

Most, if not all, LG AG coatings are too thick for me. I returned the NEC EA23 and the Dell U2311. My best friend returned his U2410. The AG looks like dirt to me.

I like the AG coatings used on most cheap TN panels and I LOVE the Semi-AG used on the Benq VA panels. The EW2420 and EW2430 have perfect AG. I bet the Benq EW2730 is terrific but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. The Benq TNs AG is also very good, I really like the XL2410T I'm using now.

I hate reflective displays with a passion.
 
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