A return to AMD after 13 years

Discussion in 'Motherboards' started by M76, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    WARNING: This will be long, and windy, if you don't like a lot of reading, then ignore this thread.

    Part 1: The Buildup

    I didn't know whether to post this here on in the build log thread, but I think it has more to do with the platform and the MB than being about the actual build process. Besides I already posted a build log with my current case, and this time I'm not getting a new case because I like what I have for the first time. Not that it is perfect, but it's a compromise I can live with. Small footprint but terrible to work on, tight spaces everywhere.

    Now I'm already going off on a tangent when I said this isn't about the case. So back on topic. After 13 years of building my primary rig exclusively on INTEL, with Ryzen 3000 i've decided to go back. My last AMD build was an Athlon 64 3000+ that I retired in 2006. I was actually on the fence many times about getting a Threadripper 1920x, but never actually pulled the trigger. I hope I've made the right decision.

    And while we are at decisions, this is not the PC I wanted! I decided even before the launch of the 3000 series that my CPU will be the 3900x, but after almost a month of looking at listings, pre-ordering, then cancelling, and pushing around of delivery dates I said fuck it, and got a 3700x instead.

    Why not the 3800x? Two reasons: For an 8core the 3800x is overpriced, and it seems to me that if you're going to OC it is all about silicon lottery between these two. And hell yes I'm going to OC. Not that I had much luck on the lottery recently. My 6800k which was only rock solid at 4125 is an abysmal testament to this.

    So, first thing first. The board. I wanted the x570 platform, because if I'm spending on a new build I don't want an old platform, I want the best. Is the 570 overpriced? Well if you look at it as a consumer platform, it is. Very much. But to me this is replacing a HEDT system, and IMO Ryzen 3000 can and is competing with INTEL's HEDT lineup. And then it's not the board that is overpriced, it is the CPU that is cheap.

    I needed SLI, becuase I have dual GTX1080s, so that automatically excluded everything bellow $300. My final choice was made for me, not by me. I ended up with an ASUS ROG STRIX X570-F Gaming. I wanted a new NVME system SSD for my new build, and this one came with an 512GB SSD for free. That was a deal I could not refuse.

    As for RAM I didn't need new memories as I could've used the modules from my X99. 4x8GB G.Skill Ripjaws V. They are decent mid range modules at CL15 / 3000. But with RAM prices excepted to go up I decided to buy while they're down for the count. So I got a HYPERX Predator 2x16GB CL13 / 2666 kit. I hope I can get some OC out of it.

    Part 2: The Build

    This is the frustrating part. Since not using a new case first I had to evacuate my old system. That bit already took close to 2 hours. And that's far from being the end of my frustrations. I installed the ram, the cpu and the cooler out of case as usual. This turned out to be a grave mistake. As it was impossible to connect the CPU power connector with the NH-D15 in place. So I took off the cooler, which ripped the CPU out of the socket. It was stuck on so hard that it took quite an effort to peel off from the cold plate. The AM4 retaining bracket is flimsy as hell, it barely holds the cpu, which might be a good thing, otherwise it might have ripped out pins.

    It took me about 6 hours to fit everything in the case, and connect everything how I wanted, I won't go into details on that but by the time I finished my patience was wearing thin. But the worst was yet to come.

    First attempt at powering on: Nothing happens. Pressing the power button again, nothing. I was thinking the CPU might have been damaged after all when it was pulled out from the socket. But it wasn't that. Thanks to the crammed space and the fact that I didn't really see what I was doing, it turned out that I connected the power switch to the wrong pins.

    That's a relief. After connecting it the right way, the fans spun up, RGB lighting flashing, but on the display: No signal.
    Might I have forgotten something? I've spent hours troubleshooting, still no signal. Tried with both GPUs, and with each installed by itself, to no avail. At this point I was so confused that I had to look up on the net if the Ryzen 3000 might have an integrated GPU that overrides the dedicated ones, but of course no.

    Then I turned to the onboard diagnostic leds. Not much help, but it shows which component is stopping the post. And according to the QLED display the Post is completed successfully, and the system is already in the boot state. But then why is there nothing on the screen?

    In my utter frustration I've tried the system with the Ripjaws, no change. Then I look at the recommended DIMM population order in the manual, and it turns out, ASUS recommends using slots A2 and B2 if you're using two DIMMs, who the fuck does that? Why aren't A1 and B1 the primary slots?

    And it turned out to be terrible advice anyway since when I installed the memory into A2 and B2, the system didn't even get past the RAM test according to the LEDs. Good job ASUS.

    So what was the solution? Because there was a solution. Well actually more like workaround. Connect the display using HDMI, instead of DP. WTF? Why? How? If I connect using DP, the monitor turns off and goes into sleep. If I use the HDMI, the post screen actually shows.

    I'm still at that point after installing windows and setting up everything. If the display is connected trough the DP cable, I don't get anything on the screen, until the system boots into Windows, then everything works fine. Anyone can figure this one out?

    Part 3: Initial usage experience.


    It's hard to say anything after using the system for maybe 4 hours, it's not like a night and day difference, I only went from 6 to 8 cores. But this is the "turing test" for AMD. How stable it is, how many compatibility issues I encounter. If it's bad I'm packing it in and selling everything. If it's good I'm upgrading to a 3950x later.

    I need more time to draw any meaningful conclusions, but the first game I ran, actually ran like shit. Half the FPS I was getting with the 6800k. I don't know why was that happening, and why on one specific map for that matter. Apart from that the only thing I ran was Cinebench 20. I didn't write down the score unfortunately.

    Does it ever end? The frustration? Not yet. As I decided to update the BIOS. This was the longest and most nerve wrecking bios update I ever did. It didn't just take ages. The system was stuck in a boot loop for ten minutes after. I was already fearing the worst:"That's it I, have to RMA this shit, and due to waiting weeks for a 3900x the replacement warranty on the MB has already expired before I even started this build"

    But then after turning itself on and off a lot it finally booted up like nothing happened. ?! And no, the new BIOS didn't change the DP issue, the post screen is still only visible when using HDMI.

    Part 4: Overclocking made easy

    First thing I did was to set the memory speed to the timing it is rated at from factory. I know this is not technically OCing, but it is to me, because in the past 13 years with Intel I had more than one build where I never even could get close to the factory memory speed. If I could run it at the rated speed that was the exception to the rule. And with AMD's reputation of being picky with RAM, I didn't expect for it to just work. But it does. Didn't try OCing ram yet, might try later, but I'm not a believer in the art. It yields negligible returns after a lot of frustrating trials.

    Then I downloaded the Ryzen Master utility. First it seemed confusing, but it only took 2 minutes to figure out how it works, and I have to say this is the easiest overclocking has been for me. And this is the first time I can actually do it on the fly. Previous attempts at that always failed so I always had to resort to the old fashioned set the desired clock from bios then see if it boots method. Not anymore. The utility sets the clock and voltage on the fly, and even has some basic stability test (not very reliable but for a quick test it is OK)

    I don't want to jinx it, but it seems finally I had better luck on the silicon lottery. I went to 4400 all core, in like 5 minutes. And currently sitting there, I don't want to spoil it yet with a failure. It might go further it might not, but 4400 is already good for a 3700x from what I saw in reviews. Especially on air.

    So that's all for now. If you read to the end, then I salute you, I hope it was less frustrating to read than it was to experience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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  2. Azrak

    Azrak Gawd

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  3. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have SLI gtx 660's and if I leave my HDMI cable plugged into that goes to my TV, my Display port main monitor (ASUS) wont show any post screen. Screen stays black until it gets to the Win login screen.

    If I unplug the HDMI cable then it displays proper on my monitor during POST/Bootup.

    I tried plugging the HDMI in the second card and that works but then GeForce control panel tells you that SLI is disabled and you have to remove the HDMI or put in back on the 1st card.

    I have found no workaround except leave the HDMI unplugged until I want to watch some movies.
     
  4. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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  5. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well that's understandable if both are connected one takes priority. But I didn't get the post screen on DP even if HDMI was disconnected.
     
  6. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Meanwhile I tried OC-ing the ram somewhat.

    From 13-15-15@ 2666
    I was able to go to 14-15-15 @ 3000

    And it lost me exactly 50 points in Cinebench 20. That's what I was talking about when I said negligible results. Well, this is so negligible that it's a loss. And it's not a fluke I ran the test multiple times, and I can't beat my previous score at "stock" ram speed.

    I know, I know Cinebench is not a good way to test ram speed gains. But what is?
     
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  7. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    I guess I missed the point.

    I would of course try a diff DP cable and then maybe turn off fast boot in the BIOS to give the DP connected device time to initialize.
     
  8. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It was solved two up. Or three up now.
     
  9. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Yes, higher timing can make things go slower. If you could go up a bit higher frequency or maintain the same timing you would probably have seen a neglidgeable gain. Not really worth it in my opinion.
     
  10. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Tried another game, so far it's AMD 1 - Intel 1
    Because XCOM2 ran terribly on the 6800K, FPS dropping literally bellow 1 at times. And now it's butter smooth, like it's a different game, snappy and responsive.

    Oh, and I remembered one more issue I didn't mention in my original post. But this might be INTEL's fault :pAs the MB has an Intel NIC.

    Sometimes when windows boots the network is not detected it says network cable is unplugged. 9 out of 10 times disabling the adapter then re-enabling it solved it, but once I had to reboot for it to actually recognize the network.
     
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  11. hititnquitit

    hititnquitit Limp Gawd

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    Aida64 is what ive been using. Use thaiphoon burner to find out what ics you have one your memory. Im almost certain they are samsung b die. If it is try 3200 14 14 14 34 1.35v that should give you a little better speed/scores.
     
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  12. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    See if you can't excise whatever driver is currently installed and get one from Intel's site.

    This shouldn't ever be an issue- Windows typically ships and / or updates with good Intel drivers- but if it is, well, time for the flamethrower.
     
  13. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Prime 95 for stress testing across the board, that will tell you if the system is stable or not.
     
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  14. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    With respect to RAM speed vs. performance... need to watch your absolute latency as measured in nanoseconds. If that goes up, especially in a workload that's not going to fit into Zen 2's caches, you're likely to see a performance regression.

    And note that very few workloads should behave this way. Up until the bus speed gets cut in half (RAM at 3600 - 3733), more RAM speed with similar absolute latency should push performance up across the board.
     
  15. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's a good quick test, but there are plenty more for fine tuning. Though I would agree that it's rare to pass Prime 95 and then fail something else.
     
  16. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No, you need to run it at least on hour in blended mode to see if it is stable. A good quick test is the Intel Burn Test AVX version.
     
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  17. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I've checked that too, and experienced a slight loss in memory read at 14 3000 compared to the 2666 13.
    For some reason memory write is almost half of memory read, is it supposed to be that bad? The built in results show 43000 for 2700x, I get 23000.
     
  18. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Different strokes, but I don't disagree.
     
  19. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Cinebench 20 makes about 10C°more temp in the CPU than prime95, and it crashes long before prime if the system is unstable.
     
  20. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    OK, so actually AMD nerfed the 3700x in terms of memory write speed according to this thread. So it's not an issue on my end.
     
  21. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Actually it says Hynix.Already tried 3200 with much worse timings than that and still got a no post.
     
  22. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The memory-intensive test too?
     
  23. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It seems the higher I push the memory the worse results I get in tests. I'm now at 14-14-14-35-60 @ 2933 and the test results are all poorer or the same as before in aida.

    I had the pull back the cpu to 4300, temps were out of control. It barely keeps up here under full load 86C°
     
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  24. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Here is a quick test with Cinebench 20:
    Stock: 4820
    4300: 5069
    4400: 5155

    Unfortunately I'd need extreme cooling to keep it running at 4400.
     
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  25. Shikami

    Shikami Gawd

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    This means that you have a legacy ROM; CSM is for this very problem. Another setting is the the display ouput which usually is auto, or set already proper to PEG from first x16 PCIe, and port. Sometimes, auto should be set to the output desired, and can be finicky with certain boards that will cause "out of bounds" with high refresh rate monitors when you boot. Turning the monitor off and back on will fix that with also keeping the setting at auto instead of selected output by the user.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  26. mnewxcv

    mnewxcv [H]ardness Supreme

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    Have you sold movie rights to this thread yet? If not, I may be interested. :D
     
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  27. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Especially the memory intensive test. That can run happily while cinebench crashes on the first run. Even the blend test. I need to use small ffts for prime to reveal the issues.
     
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  28. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Here is the 48 hour roundup.

    So far the system feels much more responsive. I didn't think there would be a noticeable difference in the day to day experience, but there is.
    Plus I wasn't this excited about OCing in a very long time. Granted most of the tweaking will be the RAM, but at least I see room to improve. This system just loves ram tuning, I lower timings and it just takes it without an issue. Of course I'm taking babysteps, but I so got used to not even being able to get the factory rated timings that this feels like a whole new world of possibilities.

    So far the only issue I noticed is that for some reason even if I set CAS 13 in bios the timing still stays at 14.
     
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  29. Rvenger

    Rvenger [H]ard|Gawd

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    RAM likely did a memory train and determined CAS 13 was not stable for boot.
     
  30. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    When that happens it simply boots at default JEDEC timings.
     
  31. os2wiz

    os2wiz Gawd

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    That is because you have "gear down" enabled in the ram timings. It will only allow an even integer for the first timing (CL). If you disable it or keep it on auto you should be able to use an odd integer for your first memory timing.
     
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  32. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Never heard about that, thanks.
     
  33. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Instead of OCing I've been just using the system, and it is much better than expected, everything feels faster and smoother, going from the 6800k to the 3700x is such an upgrade that I don't even feel the need to get a 3950x, at least not immediately. I think I'll be using this at least until the end of the year, maybe beyond.
     
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  34. JRZoid

    JRZoid [H]Lite

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    The MSI is fine hadn't flashed it yet and or dropped in one...why?...I can dog out the EVGA on that delid at 5ghz...They think it's gonna keep up and outrun the Asus...I wouldn't doubt it.
     
  35. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    That's standard. It has to do with memory traces and signal quality being better in the end RAM slots. I would try to get that working first as it could provide better mem OC.
     
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  36. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    again shameless plug

    if you are gamming on ar yzne systme correct thread distrubtion is important for maximum performance
    I will advise to use my free tool "project mercury" and enable " No ccx swithing" and/or " NO SMT conflicts"

    Certain games has shown north of 20% FPS boost after these adjustments


    Download:
    https://techcenterdk.wordpress.com/

    Tests:
     
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  37. mvmiller12

    mvmiller12 Gawd

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    3 Questions:

    1) What was that first game you were having horrible performance with? Someone might be able to point you to a fix, or at least an explanation.

    2) Have you installed the AMD latest chipset drivers? They are actually fairly important for a stable system. A lot of Intel folks tend to overlook chipset drivers, even though Intel still provides them, because the Windows defaults are "good enough." This does not necessarily hold true with Ryzen, especially with the 3000 chips.

    3) Are you on Windows 10 1903? This version of Windows (and only this one as of now) is the one with all the tunings for Ryzen 3000 series chips. You can * get * it to work with earlier revisions, but not optimally. If you are on Linux, I don't have any advice for you on best practices for this - not my area of expertise.

    Free advice from a long-time AMD platform user:

    1) Be prepared for an onslaught of BIOS upgrades as AMD struggles to stabilize the platform on their end. Sad, but true. If your system is stable right now, I'd give it a month or two and then upgrade your BIOS and chipset drivers to the latest versions available. All the egregious sins should be absolved by then :) When you go and look, you will probably see there have been at least a half-dozen updates for each between now and then. It is widely expected that there will be improvements over time with Ryzen 3000 series CPU boost clocks and PBO (auto overclocking), so definitely worth that later look.

    2) AMD tends to be responsive to their customers in a way that (in my experience) Intel and nVidia are not. If you can positively track something down as a compatibility issue with your AMD hardware and/or software, post about it on the official AMD forums and the AMD Reddit. "Bump" it regularly. They will eventually take notice and check it out. This is how a bunch of us got the Radeon drivers fixed for NieR: Automata a couple of years ago.

    3) Welcome to the family. There will be some transition pains, but don't feel afraid to ask for help. There are a lot of us here who are more than happy to shine some light in the dark spaces.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  38. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Hey, I remember you presenting this previously, it's a neat idea- do you have updated tests for Zen 2?
     
  39. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That would be interesting, I don't want to be 'the' guinea pig.
     
  40. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    BeamNG, but interestingly only on one specific map, and only on certain locations of the map. I drive around and sometimes it's fine, then suddenly it goes from 60fps to 20, and then after driving a few hundred meters it goes back to 55-60 and runs fine until the next drop.
    Unfortunately this is my favorite map in the game so I can't really ignore it but as of yet have no idea why is it doing it. With the intel I was getting consistent FPS everywhere. (Around 40-45). I've tried one more map and it didn't happen there.

    Yes, first thing I did was install chipset drivers, It is first thing for me, on intel as well. I don't think any of the windows built in drivers are good enough. The only case where I use them when there aren't even any alternatives.
    Yes, I'm on a completely fresh install of 1903.

    I've already updated bios once, and chipset drivers too. I'm using manual overclocking, PBO, might be neat for casuals, but it seems that manual all core OC gives much more performance, even if it doesn't boost individual cores that high. I'm mostly using highly multi threaded software.
    I know as much about reddit as I know about twitter: Zero. Both seems like confusing messes to me, that I don't want to be involved with.
    There is no family to me, I buy the best bang for the buck and currently this was it, for 13 years before it was intel.
     
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