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2900XT Ain't That Bad...

CHAoS_NiNJA said:
What are you, 13? This is a message board for mature discussion...
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[ T ] A C O;1031175506 said:
Obviously you have not read much here, have ya? :p
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Well [ T ]aco, while in practice it doesn't often happen, it does appear to have been the intention to be that way...

"The [H]ard|Forum Rules:

(1) Absolutely NO FLAMING, NAME CALLING OR PERSONAL ATTACKS. Mutual respect and civilized conversation is the required norm...

(4) ...No THREAD Crapping...

...By posting to the [H]ard|Forum, you agree to abide by the above rules and terms."

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=760666
 
JMackay, you make that graph yourself? Fancy.

Everyone knows that the GTS is cheaper than the XT, but with new drivers (as far as I've seen), it's at least fixed some of the games that were horribly broken. I think Oblivion is working now?

I really want to see the [H] review of overclocking/dual cards... see what happens with that and new drivers. Maybe they won't declare it a complete flop again ;)
 
jmackay said:
I think this sums it up the best, and remember they are comparing the GTS @ $379 and the 2900 @ $399

Looking @ newegg right now, cheapest 2900 is $419 ($409 but OOS), cheapest 8800gts 640mb is $379 ($349 after $30 MIR from Evga, very fast rebate btw), or $329AR (OOS).

valuebigbq5.png


So that means that the graph is actually more in favor of the GTS since its cheaper than their #s, while the 2900 is more expensive.
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Yeah, well Hexus did that as well, only they followed through to 2560x1600, where the 2900XT is the better value. So it again depends on one's set up, whether they game at high resolutions or plan to. Draw.

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=8687&page=10 (2nd graph down) jmackay's is lifted from Bjorn3D
 
Citizen86 said:
JMackay, you make that graph yourself? Fancy.

Everyone knows that the GTS is cheaper than the XT, but with new drivers (as far as I've seen), it's at least fixed some of the games that were horribly broken. I think Oblivion is working now?

I really want to see the [H] review of overclocking/dual cards... see what happens with that and new drivers. Maybe they won't declare it a complete flop again ;)
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No I took it from one of the reviews that Pepsiennis posted
 
Pepsiennis said:
Yeah, well Hexus did that as well, only they followed through to 2560x1600, where the 2900XT is the better value. So it again depends on one's set up, whether they game at high resolutions or plan to. Draw.

[IMG*]http://img.hexus.net/v2/graphics_cards/amd/HD2900XT/B4B25.png[/IMG]

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=8687&page=10 (2nd graph down) jmackay's is lifted from Bjorn3D
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Oh, you mean the one that shows the 320mb and 640mb as a better bang for buck @ 1920/1200 and the GTX as better bang for buck @ 2560x1600.

Their prices (UK) are also only £7 difference between the 640mb and 2900, while its £249 vs £350 for the 2900 vs GTX. Here in the US the price difference is much greater between the 2900 and 8800gts. This would, again, skew the graph in better favor of the 8800gts for bang for buck.

BTW don't hotlink images, host them somewhere else.
 
jmackay said:
Oh, you mean the one that shows the 320mb and 640mb as a better bang for buck @ 1920/1200 and the GTX as better bang for buck @ 2560x1600.

Their prices (UK) are also only £7 difference between the 640mb and 2900, while its £249 vs £350 for the 2900 vs GTX. Here in the US the price difference is much greater between the 2900 and 8800gts. This would, again, skew the graph in better favor of the 8800gts for bang for buck.

BTW don't hotlink images, host them somewhere else.
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Well, to begin with sorry for the 'hotlink', it was unintentional. Next, that price differential is a point I made early in the thread: to you in the US, price is a more tangible factor in favor of the GTS, but in many other markets the difference is negligible or even in favor of the 2900XT, like it is here in China. If a website like PCPOP (a leading Chinese hardware site) were to draw up a similar graph, it would be even more in favor of the 2900XT, as in many cases the difference is around US$80. Now, as for the GTX... (would everybody join me in the old refrain? 1, 2, 3...) the 2900XT in price and performance is a competitor for the GTS, not the GTX. From the outset it has been so, as evidenced by the cancellation/non-issuance of an XTX.
 
Pepsiennis said:
Well, to begin with sorry for the 'hotlink', it was unintentional. Next, that price differential is a point I made early in the thread: to you in the US, price is a more tangible factor in favor of the GTS, but in many other markets the difference is negligible or even in favor of the 2900XT, like it is here in China. If a website like PCPOP (a leading Chinese hardware site) were to draw up a similar graph, it would be even more in favor of the 2900XT, as in many cases the difference is around US$80. Now, as for the GTX... (would everybody join me in the old refrain? 1, 2, 3...) the 2900XT in price and performance is a competitor for the GTS, not the GTX. From the outset it has been so, as evidenced by the cancellation/non-issuance of an XTX.
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You don't get it though... people gaming @ 2560x1600 would be BETTER OFF with a GTX than a 2900. Those gaming @ 1920x1200 would be BETTER OFF with a GTS than a 2900.

Who cares that the card is supposed to compete with if there are other options that would perform better bang for buck.

If you spend $1500ish on your monitor, you can probably afford the extra $100 for a GTX.
 
jmackay said:
You don't get it though... people gaming @ 2560x1600 would be BETTER OFF with a GTX than a 2900. Those gaming @ 1920x1200 would be BETTER OFF with a GTS than a 2900...
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What you say is true, in your context. But people in many other countries can't afford the monitor that does 2560x1600, so they won't be buying in the GTX's category of card anyway. And in many of those countries, in their context, the 2900XT is the best bang for the buck (Yuan, Peso, Ruble, etc.) at 1920x1200. Got it?
 
What should someone buy if they game at 1024x768? :D

Just kidding.

I think the biggest problem that people have in the States is that the GTS is much cheaper than the 2900XT, yet people still insist that the 2900XT alright because it's performing the same. At least it was. I haven't been keeping up with driver updates.

If the XT and GTS were the same price, I think people would be giving the 2900XT a serious look. But as of right now, there is about an $80 difference, and to many, it's not worth it.
 
Citizen86 said:
What should someone buy if they game at 1024x768? :D

Just kidding.

I think the biggest problem that people have in the States is that the GTS is much cheaper than the 2900XT, yet people still insist that the 2900XT alright because it's performing the same. At least it was. I haven't been keeping up with driver updates.

If the XT and GTS were the same price, I think people would be giving the 2900XT a serious look. But as of right now, there is about an $80 difference, and to many, it's not worth it.
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Yeah, and that difference has always bugged me: As jMackay himself noted, there is only a minor difference in price at the time the hexus article was written. I know that here in China the GTS is significantly more (by US$80 on average) expensive in favor of the 2900XT (which sells at 3200RMB, or US$400... on the nose, while the GTS sells for around 3800-3900RMB, or almost US$500. Is that very far from its original price?). Taking into account trade tarrifs (both ATI and Nvidia are American companies), shouldn't the differential we see in the States still show up elsewhere? Is it? And if not, why? It might be good to hear from [H]forum members who are outside the United States as to costs where they are.

Edit: A few examples...

http://detail.zol.com.cn/vga/index93797.shtml
http://detail.zol.com.cn/vga/index93786.shtml
http://detail.zol.com.cn/vga/index98595.shtml
 
Pepsiennis said:
What you say is true, in your context. But people in many other countries can't afford the monitor that does 2560x1600, so they won't be buying in the GTX's category of card anyway. And in many of those countries, in their context, the 2900XT is the best bang for the buck (Yuan, Peso, Ruble, etc.) at 1920x1200. Got it?
Click to expand...

In both of the bang for buck graphs, the GTS was better @ "lower" resolutions (1920x1200 and down). YOU are the one that brought up 2560x1600, and when I brought up the cost of that monitor and the the fact that the GTX is a better buy, its now no longer part of the equation?

Pepsiennis said:
Yeah, well Hexus did that as well, only they followed through to 2560x1600, where the 2900XT is the better value. So it again depends on one's set up, whether they game at high resolutions or plan to. Draw.
Click to expand...
 
This from Paguito.com, biggest mexican e-tailer.

Sapphire 2900XT $5,761.49 pesos w/tax. Roughly $530 US. Only 2900 they have.

EVGA 8800 GTS 640mb KO ACS3 for $5,577.49 pesos w/tax. Close, but this is also the AC3 version, which is much more expensive. They don't have any other 640mb versions, but the 320mb versions are going for ~$4,000 pesos, or about $370 US.

Not many other e-tailers are going to have high-end video cards because their isn't a whole lot of demand for them... people are just starting to get computers into their homes here, nevermind high-end gaming machines ;)

I would say that if Paguito.com had a regular 640mb version, that it would be retailing cheaper than the 2900XT
 
jmackay said:
In both of the bang for buck graphs, the GTS was better @ "lower" resolutions (1920x1200 and down). YOU are the one that brought up 2560x1600, and when I brought up the cost of that monitor and the the fact that the GTX is a better buy, its now no longer part of the equation?
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jMackay, I did indeed bring up that resolution, because the graph you showed wasn't telling all the cards could do. In fact, it was you who began posting graphics. Then your explanation was one limited in thinking: to the US, while the products in question are internationally available, so I was again, trying to include the relevant information. People in the US do indeed buy larger monitors.

[ T ] A C O;1031176146 said:
I didn't flame. Go police elsewhere; you'll never be a Mod.
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[ T ] aco, please don't take offense! I wasn't trying to imply you were flaming me, not at all. I quoted the rules because there has been a lot of flaming in this thread and a recent reference of the rules we have all agreed to was appropriate to what someone else said (and our reaction to that person's post was what you commented on. Your comment was witty and reasonable). Again, no offense meant!
 
[ T ] A C O;1031176146 said:
I didn't flame. Go police elsewhere; you'll never be a Mod.
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lol. There has been a lot of name-calling over the 2900XT... oh well.

I bet that the 2950Pro will be a killer card. Maybe my next build will be able to sport one of those. If it's anything like the 1950Pro that is....
 
Citizen86 said:
lol. There has been a lot of name-calling over the 2900XT... oh well.

I bet that the 2950Pro will be a killer card. Maybe my next build will be able to sport one of those. If it's anything like the 1950Pro that is....
Click to expand...

I hoping the refresh does help. It would be nice if they can adress the AA/fill issues as well. Right now it feels like a "brute force" design like "net burst".
 
Citizen86 said:
This from Paguito.com, biggest mexican e-tailer.

Sapphire 2900XT $5,761.49 pesos w/tax. Roughly $530 US. Only 2900 they have.

EVGA 8800 GTS 640mb KO ACS3 for $5,577.49 pesos w/tax. Close, but this is also the AC3 version, which is much more expensive. They don't have any other 640mb versions, but the 320mb versions are going for ~$4,000 pesos, or about $370 US.

Not many other e-tailers are going to have high-end video cards because their isn't a whole lot of demand for them... people are just starting to get computers into their homes here, nevermind high-end gaming machines ;)

I would say that if Paguito.com had a regular 640mb version, that it would be retailing cheaper than the 2900XT
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Thanks Citizen86! Well, if it's the only 2900XT they have, would that put it at a premium in Mexico? Supply and demand, a 'luxury' item? You'd think it would here in China, but the costs are usually exactly the same, except if something must be directly sent from the States (like Corsair, Patriot, etc.). I guess there is no way to know what the price differential between the two cards, in their normal varieties and in good supply, would be.
 
[ T ] A C O;1031176217 said:
Whoops my bad. I have been stressed lately. :)
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Forget it, usually there are so many unreasonable insults flying around that your reaction is very understandable! I'm just glad you understand I wasn't yelling at you. ;)
 
Pepsiennis said:
Thanks Citizen86! Well, if it's the only 2900XT they have, would that put it at a premium in Mexico? Supply and demand, a 'luxury' item? You'd think it would here in China, but the costs are usually exactly the same, except if something must be directly sent from the States (like Corsair, Patriot, etc.). I guess there no way to know what the price differential to between the two cards in their normal varieties and in good supply would be.
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It might put a premium on it, but not necessarily...I think the only other manufacturer that we might get is ASUS, and usually their cards sell at a premium... but then again, just like most foreign countries, EVERYTHING is sold at a premium.

Mexican prices aren't the best to gauge by, because unlike most other countries that import, computer parts for Mexico aren't in huge demand. They're ridiculously expensive and only the richest of the rich. I personally never want to buy a computer or computer part in Mexico, I'd rather have a friend bring it down in his luggage for me to save me the $50-$300!
 
Pepsiennis said:
Hi Eagle!
Well, here you go. I'm sure there are more, but these are sites I often view. I trust not all of them are disreputable in your sight. Each one benched using AA & AF, and I hope you might notice how the 2900XT scales as resolution increases, and I'd also like to cast attention on the competition between the 2900XT and the 8800GTS 640. In more games than not, the 2900XT scores higher.

1. http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/05/16/r600_ati_radeon_hd_2900_xt/1
2. http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1099&pageID=3433
3. http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=2260&cid=3&pg=1
4. http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=8687&page=1
5. http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=650
6. http://www.legitreviews.com/article/503/1/ * (OK, not the best review, but it is a head to head with the GTS 640)
7. http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=406&type=expert&pid=2
8. http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2007q2/radeon-hd-2900xt/index.x?pg=1
9. http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/1115/msi_radeon_hd_2900_xt_512mb_graphics_card/index.html
10. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd-2900-games.html
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I looked at 3 of those reviews and all of them showed the 640mb GTS being faster in most games except Quake4, high res or not. It's interesting how some review sites have very contradicting results though. It would be nice if [H] did a re review with newer drivers. The one game that I've never seen benchmarks for is ArmA, and it's probably the most stressful games out there.
 
Pepsiennis said:
I'm reminded of a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail (and you'd best stop at this parenthetical if you don't care for MP. It's stupid, yes, but also entirely germaine to the issue because of that fact), when brave Brave Sir Robin says to... Tim, in reference to the evil beast that awaited them:

"You stupid sod! You got us all worked up for nothing. I soiled my armor, I was so scared!"
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I thought you were going to say "We are the knights who say …. NEE!"

 
Pepsiennis said:
I'm not here in these forums to be anyone's goddamned target. People talk about 'flamebait' as if flaming were allowed in [H]Forums rules! Well, read them again, it isn't. And so one is left to their own civilized manners to control themselves. Forums: a place where topics are discussed, not shouted down. I'd love to discuss this card with people who know what they are talking about: owners of the card in question, not a bunch of guys with Nvidia cards in their sigs, cards that are so good that instead of discussing them, ya'll have to hang out in the ATI section of the bleachers.
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HAHAH he has a point, you nvidia trolls should go elsewhere. Nice choice of words and its great to hear about this card from AN ACTUAL OWNER. :)
 
chaikovski2002 said:
Since when does having a different product other than ATI make someone a troll? :confused:
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Haha, I guess so. ATI owners need to de-rage-ify.


Pepsiennis said:
I'm not here in these forums to be anyone's darn target. People talk about 'flamebait' as if flaming were allowed in [H]Forums rules! Well, read them again, it isn't. And so one is left to their own civilized manners to control themselves. Forums: a place where topics are discussed, not shouted down. I'd love to discuss this card with people who know what they are talking about: owners of the card in question, not a bunch of guys with Nvidia cards in their sigs, cards that are so good that instead of discussing them, ya'll have to hang out in the ATI section of the bleachers.
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We are discussing. We are just discussing how bad the XT sucks, while at the same time supporting our own cards that we cherish and love.

Define discussing and you will see my point. We are only sharing our opinions, even if in some cases a rude comment is placed. Don't freak out...you shouldn't care what people think about anyways.

:)
 
The 2900XT sucks bad enough to turn anyone into a troll. I had the thing for about a week and I couldn't wait to get rid of the damn thing.

The fact of the matter is that the 2900XT is inferior to other cards available in the same price range. It has been tested by [H] and there is simply nothing in the total mix of information available online that suggests that this card doesn't perform poorly with high levels of antialiasing.

Trust me, there isn't even anything to debate--you are talking about a card that can't do 8xaa in Battlefield2. That means if you are running 4xaa in battlefield now upgrading to a 2900XT will not result in better image quality. Think about that. When is that last time you bought a next gen card that struggled with a 3 year old game? Struggled--it is pathetic.
 
Woah! We've awakened ten days in the past! Cool, new beginnings: I love you guys, no matter what video card you or I use. Now, let's get along until the next mid to high range video card is released! :p
 
Pepsiennis said:
Woah! We've awakened ten days in the past! Cool, new beginnings: I love you guys, no matter what video card you or I use. Now, let's get along until the next mid to high range video card is released! :p
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Everytime they start talking bad about the HD2900XT the forum crashes...LOL You better be nice to the HD2900XT or else...:D
 
29o0xT iS teh sUxX0r, p0body should usar eso, es teh HOT nd wAtS-sucker!!! omgwtfsauce

hope I don't bring down the forums for the 4th time :D

By the way, j\k
 
nicepun said:
you forgot to add "eh" at the of that...LOL
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Eh? Oh, yeah! "It's on a mission from God, eh!"

In that Tweaktown article on Page 16, they measure temperatures from two places; back of the card behind the core, and the card's exhaust. It's interesting, as I hadn't seen it measured that way before. I'll leave it to each to draw their own conclusion from what they see there.
 
Pepsiennis said:
Eh? Oh, yeah! "It's on a mission from God, eh!"

In that Tweaktown article on Page 16, they measure temperatures from two places; back of the card behind the core, and the card's exhaust. It's interesting, as I hadn't seen it measured that way before. I'll leave it to each to draw their own conclusion from what they see there.
Click to expand...

what i like is that the HD2900XT is branded as a card for STALKER, even though it performs the worst on it.
 
Blacklash said:
If you are an overclocker the HD 2900XT is probably the better buy, particularly if you use water cooling.
Click to expand...
And why is that?

I want to remind you that 8800GTS cards are excellent overclockers, even with stock cooling.

For example my 8800GTS 640MB goes to core621MHz/shader1458MHz/mem900MHz without any problems with stock cooling. Core and especially memory would most likely quite a bit faster but those are just nice values thrown in RivaTuner. Considering these cards are no memory bandwidth limited it's kinda pointless to OC the memory any more. In my case I got 24,2% increase in core clock and 21,5% increase in shader clock.

22% increase on HD2900XTs clocks (default 743MHz?) would mean 906MHz which is by all means totally impossible to achieve with stock cooling.
 
It's not bad by any means. It's just that you could have spent a lot less money for the same performance with a 320MB 8800GTS. :p :D
 
Pepsiennis said:
Yeah, it's ironical. Fate is not without a sense of humor. :D
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Don't you mean God? God sent this card on a mission, to be ironic:D

TweakTown reviews are always interesting.... not sure what to make of them. If they are willing to put "Monthly driver updates" in their list of pros instead of "need new drivers" in cons... well they obviously like the card, lol. They've done 3 reviews of the 2900XT now, and they seem to think it's getting better and better.

Meh.
 
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