2408WFP Input Lag?

noobman

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I'm looking to get a widescreen LCD (22 or 24 inches) monitor for use with my xbox360, a new PC that I'll be building, and my work laptop.

Currently, I use a 19inch CRT monitor for PC gaming/360 gaming, and LCDs on my laptop and at work.

My question is about input lag, as it pertains to the Dell 2408WFP. I've heard that it has some input lag issues, which could be a problem considering that I'm "upgrading" from a 19inch CRT (which posses no input lag).

Do you think the difference would be that noticeable? I do use LCDs for work, so I figure my eyes are at least somewhat adjusted to slow response times and input lag. If not, could you recommend a monitor in one of those sizes that has relatively low input lag? I'd prefer something that supports 1:1 pixel mapping, and an HDMI input. If that is not supported, I'll have to wait for the 360 dashboard update that supports 1680*1050 and 1920*1200, and cable swap the VGA between my laptop and my 360.
 
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I purchased one of these thinking I would be able to put up with it, I couldn't...

The input lag is so bad, even the mouse pointer is difficult to move accurately. It makes everything you do on your PC feel sluggish and unresponsive.

I'll let more knowledgable forum members reccommend alternative products.

Joe
 

Synomenon

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Mouse pointer difficult to move accurately? Hah, you must have received a really bad one then.
 

Lord Magus

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I'm wondering how can products like this get to be sold. If it's so bad that's noticeable in desktop then it is REALLY bad.

I have a Samsung 245T that has horrible ghosting on dark gray colors.. I can see the mouse ghosting in this forum's background, or when I play Tomb Raider, but that's about it...

It just sucks to think that these monitors are so expensive and are so crappy.
 

Lentil

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Mouse pointer difficult to move accurately? Hah, you must have received a really bad one then.

Or you have less sensitivity to this issue?

I also returned mine because the cursor was hard to control due to input lag.
 

Synomenon

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I don't know. My brother notices all this stuff and he says mine is fine. I don't know if it makes any difference, but my 2408 is right next to my PC so it's connected via a 1.5ft. DVI cable. I'm also using a Logitech G9 mouse.

I did have to exchange three times to get one that looked right to me though.
 

Snowdog

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No it isn't firmware, some people are just generally insensitive. That is why you should look at measurements and not personal anecdotes.

The 2408 has the worse input lag ever measured for a monitor. If you have any concern about lag at all, this is not the monitor for you.
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=48&mo1=304&p1=2943&ma2=88&mo2=342&p2=3161&ph=12
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/dell_2408wfp.htm


I had the grand-daddy of this monitor. The 2405, it too sucked all the snap out of my PC and made mouse movements sluggish and annoying.

OTOH, if you want to see once and for all if lag is an issue for you. Buy the 2408. If the lag on the 2408, doesn't bother you, you never need think about lag again.
 

Biges

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I was naive to think that Dell actually corrected their lame firmware/hardware and newer batches of 2408 had lower input lag :)
 

Snowdog

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Wow they really didnt fix this yet :S

Fix it how. S-PVA panels have always demonstrated about two frames of lag minmum, before there is any processing. All the processing on this panel adds about two more frames of lag.

A simply firmware update is not going to fix it. You need faster hardware. Maybe a 2409 will be faster, but there is no hope for the 2408.
 

noobman

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No it isn't firmware, some people are just generally insensitive. That is why you should look at measurements and not personal anecdotes.

The 2408 has the worse input lag ever measured for a monitor. If you have any concern about lag at all, this is not the monitor for you.
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=48&mo1=304&p1=2943&ma2=88&mo2=342&p2=3161&ph=12
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/dell_2408wfp.htm


I had the grand-daddy of this monitor. The 2405, it too sucked all the snap out of my PC and made mouse movements sluggish and annoying.

OTOH, if you want to see once and for all if lag is an issue for you. Buy the 2408. If the lag on the 2408, doesn't bother you, you never need think about lag again.

Hmm... well I'd really hate to go and buy a monitor for $700 dollars only to find out that it sucks. I've tried a Samsung 22inch monitor in the past (TN panel) and I noticed all sorts of colour-banding and other ugly stuff that in inherit to a 6bit panel. That, in addition to the fact that the screen real-estate was too small for my development needs resulted in me returning the monitor. That screen was about $250 though. In fact,it was the Samsung 226BW, a screen that is surrounded by controversy.

For anybody against the 2408... could you recommend a better monitor? Keep in mind that I need 1:1 pixel mapping (for the xbox) with relatively low input lag and a quick response time, the ability to rotate the monitor vertically, and preferrably an HDMI input (composite/s-vid as well would be beautiful, allowing me to connect a digital cable receiver). Yes, I'm willing to give a TN panel another try if necessary.
 

Lord Magus

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S-PVA nowadays are full of problems.

The 2407 (non HC) wasn't that laggy and didn't have as much ghosting as the 2407-HC and 2408 do.
 

albovin

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This monitor has measured input lag about 50-55 ms.
What IL is, why it is subjective and why it's important for hardcore gamers only - all has been explaned 100 times.

This input lag can prevent a user from playing fast pace games.
Huge heavy dot after this.

There are tens of other ways a Homo sapiens can use the Dell 2408 to make his life better.

Universal monitors are rare and expensive.
Others may have shorter or longer list of limitations.

Do your home work, read "Recommendations" section.
 

Lord Magus

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No, that's not all.

A high enough input lag will make even desktop use uncomfortable, to the point of unusable.
 

Snowdog

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This monitor has measured input lag about 50-55 ms.
What IL is, why it is subjective and why it's important for hardcore gamers only - all has been explaned 100 times.

Then it was explained 100 times wrong. Because you can see that both myself and Dead Herring above indicated that it made normal desktop use unpleasant. We are far from the only ones who feel this way. I am not a hard core gamer BTW. Perhaps it only stops you from being effective at hardcore gaming, but it can make everything less enjoyable.

I am wired to feel the instant response to my inputs. When it lags it feels like garbage, not a modern high speed computer.

The question is not what you do, the question is whether lag bothers you. For me yes something that lags 50-60ms definitely bothers me all the time.
 

Nearsite

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With that type of lag on the Dell, it's actually worse than using an old skool non optical mouse. The one with the ball in it.
 

albovin

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Then it was explained 100 times wrong. Because you can see that both myself and Dead Herring above indicated that it made normal desktop use unpleasant. We are far from the only ones who feel this way. I am not a hard core gamer BTW. Perhaps it only stops you from being effective at hardcore gaming, but it can make everything less enjoyable.

I am wired to feel the instant response to my inputs. When it lags it feels like garbage, not a modern high speed computer.

The question is not what you do, the question is whether lag bothers you. For me yes something that lags 50-60ms definitely bothers me all the time.

When did you try the Dell 2408 last time?:)
 

Snowdog

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When did you try the Dell 2408 last time?:)

When is that last time you stuck your hand on hot stove burner? :D

I don't think there is a point in repeating unpleasant experiences. I bought a Dell 2405 which had a similar 50 ms lag. Since I have used another monitor with the same level of lag. I know what it feels like.

It is not like this monitor has a new kind of extra special lag that isn't annoying. Lag is lag. It can be measured and once you know that a certain amount will annoy you, other monitors with the same amount or more, will also annoy you.

I know CRT is great, I know about 0-1 frame of lag is also great (Current LCD) and I know ~50ms+ of lag sucks. The only question I am interested in now is how 30ms of lag will feel for me (as I consider panels like the NEC 2490).

But 50ms is a question already answered and there is no need repeat this unpleasant experience.
 

Dr_Ick

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I have a 2408WFP; just got it last week. I am not a hardcore gamer, but I do play TF2 once in a while. This monitor works fine for me. I don't notice any lag in game or when running my day to day desktop tasks. I am running a dual monitor setup with the 2005WFP and don't notice any lag difference between the two.

Others might notice a different, but I don't. I did buy a 22inch Samsung monitor last year that was really bad. I don't remember the model number, but I immediately returned it. I could literally see the delay as I moved the mouse across the screen. I do not get that with the 2408. It seems as fast as my 2005wfp.
 

albovin

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When is that last time you stuck your hand on hot stove burner? :D

Have you ever been to a steel factory?
I have.
It's hot there.
Too hot for me.
Not for the factory people.

If you say you had unpleasant experience with a different monitor (actually an ancient one with up to 30ms response time) plus a particular (who measured it?) input lag on unknown PC with unknown videocard and unknown mouse settings) - it means you had it. No doubts at all. But you are saying about extremely subjective things.

I have spent about two weeks with this monitor.
I am not blind so far.
This monitor has input lag. I measured it and demonstrated on video.
But I did not experience even a hint of mouse pointer problem related to input lag.

What can I say...
I keep an eye on the Dell 2408 Russian forum too. People report playing UT3 online, World of Warcraft, Half Life2, Doom3, Prey, Need For Speed, editing video, etc.
Same for hardforum.
Thousands buy and enjoy.
A few complain.
Thousands read it.
 

Snowdog

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Have you ever been to a steel factory?

This monitor has input lag. I measured it and demonstrated on video.
But I did not experience even a hint of mouse pointer problem related to input lag.

Thousands buy and enjoy.
A few complain.
Thousands read it.

Do you have a point? Because you are not making it. You could say the exact same thing about the Dell 2405. Thousands bought and enjoyed it and few complained about the lag. That didn't make it any more tolerable for me then and it wouldn't make a 2408 any more tolerable today.

The part you seem to be clueless about is that some people are sensitive to lag and some aren't.

Some simple facts.

The 2408 has one of the highest input lag numbers ever recorded for a PC monitor. Not just one one site but multiple sites, multiple people etc... There is no dispute.

Some people are not sensitive to lag and it won't bother them.

Some people are sensitive to lag and it will.

So what the heck are you arguing about. You don't believe those of us who say we are sensitive to lag? I guess in your universe we are all identical with identical abilities and senses?
 
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Owning a 2408wfp for a few weeks was the most unpleasant experience, due to input lag. I don't game, it was delayed mouse pointer that drove me mad. Interestingly enough, some of my friends couldn't even notice it. Others noticed right away, even without getting any prior explanation. Some of them, like by brother felt it so badly that they thought it must be a malfunctioned unit. Unfortunately it wasn't. Each of those monitors has the same input lag, you are just happy ones if you can't notice it, that's all.
 

Synomenon

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I have a Rev.A04 2407WFP (Non-HC) next to my 2408WFP and the mouse cursors moves the same on both. I don't notice a lag and neither does my gamer brother. Maybe some are better than others?
 

Snowdog

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I have a Rev.A04 2407WFP (Non-HC) next to my 2408WFP and the mouse cursors moves the same on both. I don't notice a lag and neither does my gamer brother. Maybe some are better than others?

Really? You think that the monitors are all different, and all the people are the same. So when people react differently it is because all the monitors coming out of the factory are different? Yeah that makes sense. And I guess the monitor fairies kept changing the monitor as different people dropped by at silvergliders place. :rolleyes:
 

albovin

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Do you have a point? Because you are not making it. You could say the exact same thing about the Dell 2405. Thousands bought and enjoyed it and few complained about the lag. That didn't make it any more tolerable for me then and it wouldn't make a 2408 any more tolerable today.

The part you seem to be clueless about is that some people are sensitive to lag and some aren't.

Some simple facts.

The 2408 has one of the highest input lag numbers ever recorded for a PC monitor. Not just one one site but multiple sites, multiple people etc... There is no dispute.

Some people are not sensitive to lag and it won't bother them.

Some people are sensitive to lag and it will.

So what the heck are you arguing about. You don't believe those of us who say we are sensitive to lag? I guess in your universe we are all identical with identical abilities and senses?

??
I am not arguing at all.
Please see my post.
Literally: "you had it. No doubts at all. But you are saying about extremely subjective things."
What's up?:)

I try to stay closer to the subject - 2408.

I just repeat - all has been said on that.
Instead of chewing this old chewing gum over and over, I directed this thread starter immediately to the monitor review which covers the topic completely and to the source where recommendations are ready for him.
 

albovin

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My request and recommendation to all of us.
Don't chew BS which has been already digested.
There is an excellent comprehensive source on monitors that should have been "sticky" here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y
When a noobie asks a question that is asked on every page - don't spread old trash, give a link.
All popular monitors have their own threads - send them there.

Look at this very thread.
Is input lag on 2408 noticeable?
How many times on earth is it possible to discuss that!?
Forgive me noobman.
Go, go, go to 2408 thread - tons of inputs, tens of owners.
Why start another garbage thread?
In other forums a thread like this would be closed immediately by a moderator with verdict: "Search". Plus a couple of links.

Members who come here often and are able to put two words about monitors together, let us keep this forum clean when possible.
 

Snowdog

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??
I am not arguing at all.

You are doing a startling good impression of arguing then:

This monitor has measured input lag about 50-55 ms.[/URL]
What IL is, why it is subjective and why it's important for hardcore gamers only

The point you miss is that this is not a valid statement. As nearly half of us are indicating to you in this thread we have problems with high input lag that go beyond hard core gaming. Instead of allowing for the different levels of perception that different people have you do continue to argue that it only matters to hard core gamers, that we haven't tried this specific panel etc. Anything but acknowledging that there are a significant number of individual who will be affected by input lag beyond hard core gamers.

Now in your latest post you are saying we are spreading garbage. You have taken arguing to the point of insult.

Bottom line you do a great job on the objective parts of your review. You fail completely at recognizing the subjective nature of people, their perceptual differences, and that your reaction is not the only valid one.
 

10e

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To answer your question, yes you will likely notice the input lag if you are accustomed to CRT. The Dell is a nice monitor. This is it's only very glaring weakness.

It also depends on the LCDs you use at work. But to be honest, the 2408WFP is up there at the highest of measured input lag, so your work monitors are unlikely to have such high lag. My TV has lag like this. I noticed it right away going to it from a Dell 2005FPW. Trying to aim with the turret in Crysis is like pulling out nose hairs with a pitchfork.

My suggestions would be to possibly look at the following:

BenQ FP241W/FP241VW. These monitors with June 2007 or later build date are excellent multi input screens. They will do Xbox 360 at all HD resolutions over VGA, HDMI or component perfectly. The 1920x1080 VGA resolution works, as does 1080p over component. It has DVI, HDMI, VGA, component, composite, s-video connectors. I've tested the FP241VW for input lag, and it is less than 20ms on average over DVI, and less than 3 frames over HDMI average. This may be due to design changes since tested at Digitalversus.com

Samsung 245T - Has some input lag, but compared to the Dell it's speedy, and the price has been slowly dropping on it. Has a number of inputs and handles them as well as the Dell.

Samsung T240HD - Might be worth a look. It's new and it has multiple HDMI connectors and is supposed to perform proper pixel mapping It is a TN model, but has a number of "TV like" features. It looks a bit pricey, but it seems to offer a lot for the money, and I am fairly sure it will do 16:9 properly with 360 over component and it has speakers built in (though marketed more as a TV it seems). This also applies to the big brother T260HD, and little brother T220HD, though the T220HD is only 1680x1050 so it downscales 1080p to something like 1680x945 (16:9).

Regards,

10e


I'm looking to get a widescreen LCD (22 or 24 inches) monitor for use with my xbox360, a new PC that I'll be building, and my work laptop.

Currently, I use a 19inch CRT monitor for PC gaming/360 gaming, and LCDs on my laptop and at work.

My question is about input lag, as it pertains to the Dell 2408WFP. I've heard that it has some input lag issues, which could be a problem considering that I'm "upgrading" from a 19inch CRT (which posses no input lag).

Do you think the difference would be that noticeable? I do use LCDs for work, so I figure my eyes are at least somewhat adjusted to slow response times and input lag. If not, could you recommend a monitor in one of those sizes that has relatively low input lag? I'd prefer something that supports 1:1 pixel mapping, and an HDMI input. If that is not supported, I'll have to wait for the 360 dashboard update that supports 1680*1050 and 1920*1200, and cable swap the VGA between my laptop and my 360.
 
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I'm in the same boat looking for a 24" to replace my 20" VX2235wm. I like the S-MVA panel and plan on sticking with it unless I find a screaming deal on a IPS panel. TN panels are popular due to their price, but downgrading makes no sense to me. I watch movies, cable, and plan on getting a PS3 to use it for. I looked at VX2435wm and Dell 2408WFP. With all the input lag talk I really want to try them out before I buy them.
 

Biges

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What a discussion.
Why would anyone want to buy Dell 2408? I mean the inpu-lag is a subjective thing, but why to risk when moving from CRT (zero monitor-related input lag) to 2408, a model, with one of the highest input-lags?
What is so great about Dells anyway?
What I know is that they are pretty expensive, at least in Czechia. Of course, they give excellent prices to large corporate customers, but not to us, single-to-three monitor users :)
There are other monitors in the same group as Dell which don't have so high-input lag.
 

albovin

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Bottom line you do a great job on the objective parts of your review. You fail completely at recognizing the subjective nature of people, their perceptual differences, and that your reaction is not the only valid one.

A quote from the Dell 2408 review:

"Input Lag
The input lag was tested in comparison with a CRT monitor and then in comparison with the reference monitor. A large number of photos were taken.
Regarding input lag, the Dell 2408 is about one frame behind the NEC 2490 and about three frames behind a CRT.
In the visual side by side comparison with CRT in the game (unfortunately this piece of video is missing) the difference is noticeable. It’s really noticeable when moving the picture back and forth. The Dell 2408 reacts after a visible delay. It’s definitely short but definitely visible.
This delay has no effect on the mouse movement in everyday use.
It’s means nothing at all for movie playback.
How bad is it for gaming?
Let experts say.
So, now and again. Individual perception…
There is no doubt, zero input lag is always welcome."

Can you see this? Is it clear?
"The Dell 2408 reacts after a visible delay. It’s definitely short but definitely visible" - is it clear?
"So, now and again. Individual perception…" - is it clear?

What better "recognizing the subjective nature of people" do you want?
 
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i returned this dell (too laggy for me) for a samsung lcd which is working out great (other than my other post that I want to get a tv/computer combo monitor going hehe)
 

Snowdog

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This delay has no effect on the mouse movement in everyday use.

What better "recognizing the subjective nature of people" do you want?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :D

You say subjective nature, but you continue to issue absolute proclamations like the above that illustrate your complete failure to grasp the concept.

Several people, including myself, have told that for us it does absolutely have an effect on the mouse movement in everyday usage. Are you calling us liars?

Maybe you are have communications problem and you need to run this through a bablefish translation into your native language, or find someone who understands English better to translate.

You continue to ignore everyone who feels this lag like we are somehow wrong or lying. This is not the case, we are just more sensitive to the effect.

How can you possibly know what other people experience so well that you can claim that their experience is invalid.

The bottom line is that this is the current lag master of panels. For people bothered by lag, this is among the worse panels they could buy today. It can (and does for me) affect games, and just plain old mouse movement on screen. Heck it may even effect movies for the very sensitive where something just looks a little wrong with the lip syncing.

I make no claims how it will work out for any individual because we are all different. It has a lot of lag and if you are sensitive, it won't be pleasant, otherwise it may be fine. (if you don't mind other issues like the inability to produce accurate sRGB, or the strong angular gamma shift). If none of those things bother you, I am sure it is a fine panel.
 

albovin

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :D

You say subjective nature, but you continue to issue absolute proclamations like the above that illustrate your complete failure to grasp the concept.

Several people, including myself, have told that for us it does absolutely have an effect on the mouse movement in everyday usage. Are you calling us liars?

Maybe you are have communications problem and you need to run this through a bablefish translation into your native language, or find someone who understands English better to translate.

You continue to ignore everyone who feels this lag like we are somehow wrong or lying. This is not the case, we are just more sensitive to the effect.

How can you possibly know what other people experience so well that you can claim that their experience is invalid.

The bottom line is that this is the current lag master of panels. For people bothered by lag, this is among the worse panels they could buy today. It can (and does for me) affect games, and just plain old mouse movement on screen. Heck it may even effect movies for the very sensitive where something just looks a little wrong with the lip syncing.

I make no claims how it will work out for any individual because we are all different. It has a lot of lag and if you are sensitive, it won't be pleasant, otherwise it may be fine. (if you don't mind other issues like the inability to produce accurate sRGB, or the strong angular gamma shift). If none of those things bother you, I am sure it is a fine panel.



Maybe you are have communications problem and you need to run this through a bablefish translation into your native language, or find someone who understands English better to translate.


Please, concentrate on monitors instead of personal insulting. OK? :)

Several people, including myself, have told that for us it does absolutely have an effect on the mouse movement in everyday usage. Are you calling us liars?

Hey, wake up!!!
Do YOU understand what has been told you 10 times?
Yes, yes, yes you see this effect. Several people see. Several don't. Several people know where mouse pointer settings are. Several don't. That's normal.

Please read carefully what OWNERS write - from this useless thread and just 3 last pages of the Dell 2408 thread.

IsLNdbOi I have a Rev.A04 2407WFP (Non-HC) next to my 2408WFP and the mouse cursors moves the same on both. I don't notice a lag and neither does my gamer brother. Maybe some are better than others?

Dr_Ick
I have a 2408WFP; just got it last week. I am not a hardcore gamer, but I do play TF2 once in a while. This monitor works fine for me. I don't notice any lag in game or when running my day to day desktop tasks. I am running a dual monitor setup with the 2005WFP and don't notice any lag difference between the two.
Others might notice a different, but I don't. I did buy a 22inch Samsung monitor last year that was really bad. I don't remember the model number, but I immediately returned it. I could literally see the delay as I moved the mouse across the screen. I do not get that with the 2408. It seems as fast as my 2005wfp.


ruhltodd
I've got a new revision of the monitor. Personally, I'm really happy with the image quality, colors (after hardware calibration) and build of this monitor. I feel it's great for general use. This monitor is perfect for my needs (coding, surfing, movies, WoW here and there). I plan on purchasing a second for a multi-display setup.

piku
Just got mine today. Got it up and calibrated via my friend's i1. Seems that the sharpness is in increments of 25 so its the 1st batch (unfortunately). I didn't notice any lag while playing COD4 and GRID (coming from my Samsung TN 2ms). No dead pixels fortunately. I have to do a test for backlight still; nothing noticeable at first sight.

zig
I got mine Saturday, very happy with it. Mine is apparently the first revision, sharpness increments by 25. The input lag does exist, but I wouldn't know that if I hadn't used the lagom response time test. I just don't notice it with my naked eye.

Giolon There is a measurable input lag on this (or any) monitor, and the 2408's is indeed higher than just about any other monitor on the market. However, he didn't say there was no input lag, he said there was no noticeable input lag. On that I'd agree with him. I don't notice it at all. Everyone has a different sensitivity to it. He doesn't notice it, I don't notice it, many others don't notice it. You, Lobski, and many others do notice it.I game on this monitor every day, and love it (great picture, great colors after calibration, no ghosting, no noticeable input lag). Your own mileage may differ, but it's not like either he or myself are sitting here lying to you. (Highlighted for you, Snowdog)

benZo I received mine the other day and I haven't seen any of the reported problems. No backlight bleed, no noticeable input lag, and no dead pixels.

Have you read this, Snowdog? "Maybe you are have communications problem and you need to run this through a bablefish translation into your native language, or find someone who understands English better to translate."?

Professional comment on input lag

Try to understand what you are doing here and what I am telling you.
You are keeping this useless thread alive.
You accumulate indirect abstract observations in this useless distracting thread instead of sending people and going yourself to the appropriate place - the Dell 2408 thread where people discuss the subject.

Hopefully it's clear to you.:)

If you want to argue, please go to the Dell 2408 and talk to the owners.
I have nothing to add and I don't want to keep this shameful thread on top of this forum.
 
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