22" Panels with 75Hz

[Tosan]

Does anyone know if there are any 2ms 22" panels that have been confirmed to support a 75Hz refresh rate without dropping frames or any other problems? I've been considering the Samsung 226BW or LG W2252TQ, but I'm not sure whether either of them have support for it -- though I've seen several reports claiming that the Samsung at least is capable of it.

The 226BW has limited availability now and a panel lottery however, and very little seems to be known about the LG's overall performance still other than the fact that it has the now very common blue dominance issue.

If anyone knows whether these two panels can support higher refresh rates or has any other suggestions, that'd be extremely helpful. The only things I'm really looking for are a 2ms response time, 75Hz support (obviously), matte coating, and the least amount of input lag possible. It would only be used on a PC, so I'm not concerned about scaling or a wide variety of inputs. Thanks!

 

[Uberbob102000]

ALL LCDs at 75Hz drop frames because they can only do 60 ATM. Even 120FPS TVs are 60FPS + 60 black.

 

[ToastyX]

ALL LCDs at 75Hz drop frames because they can only do 60 ATM.

That's not true. There are some LCD monitors that can do 75 Hz without dropping frames, but they all seem to have TN panels. I used a Samsung 226BW (AUO panel) that could definitely do 75 Hz without dropping frames, but that might not apply to all the panels in the lottery. Since I mostly avoid TN panels, I don't know of any others. I wish more people would test for this, but nobody seems to think it matters.

Even 120FPS TVs are 60FPS + 60 black.

That's not true either. 120 Hz LCD HDTVs have a processor that creates intermediate frames. It's not black frame insertion.

 

[10e]

Maybe the 226BW, but like ToastyX says, it may not be all panels.

I guess if you can find the AUO panel, it might work well. But they are getting more and more scarce, and the panel pick might be more difficult nowadays.

The LG is a very fast monitor in regards to input lag, and does not suffer from the crazy colors of its brother the L227WTG, so it might be a good pick. It also has overdrive that you can turn off, and a dedicated 4:3 mode in the OSD.

For PC only gaming it should not be behind the 226BW I would think.

To put 75hz into perspective, keep in mind that a 75hz refresh rate will bring you a frame every 13.333 milliseconds, while a 60hz refresh rate will bring you a frame every 16.666 milliseconds. I think that the difference is small enough that it shouldn't really affect your gaming. Additionally, it's not like CRT where 60hz will give you eyestrain, so there will be no flicker at 60.

Just trying to make your search easier.

Regards,

10e

Does anyone know if there are any 2ms 22" panels that have been confirmed to support a 75Hz refresh rate without dropping frames or any other problems? I've been considering the Samsung 226BW or LG W2252TQ, but I'm not sure whether either of them have support for it -- though I've seen several reports claiming that the Samsung at least is capable of it.

The 226BW has limited availability now and a panel lottery however, and very little seems to be known about the LG's overall performance still other than the fact that it has the now very common blue dominance issue.

If anyone knows whether these two panels can support higher refresh rates or has any other suggestions, that'd be extremely helpful. The only things I'm really looking for are a 2ms response time, 75Hz support (obviously), matte coating, and the least amount of input lag possible. It would only be used on a PC, so I'm not concerned about scaling or a wide variety of inputs. Thanks!

 

[Tosan]

That's not true. There are some LCD monitors that can do 75 Hz without dropping frames, but they all seem to have TN panels. I used a Samsung 226BW (AUO panel) that could definitely do 75 Hz without dropping frames, but that might not apply to all the panels in the lottery. Since I mostly avoid TN panels, I don't know of any others. I wish more people would test for this, but nobody seems to think it matters.

Thanks, that's very helpful. Do you happen to remember if 75Hz was selectable in Windows, or did you need to force it through a third party app like Powerstrip?

I'm not exactly a huge fan of TN panels either, but they do seem to be the only ones that support higher refresh rates. I too am frustrated by the lack of attention that's paid to refresh rates on LCDs, and by how many people believe that it's meaningless.

The LG is a very fast monitor in regards to input lag, and does not suffer from the crazy colors of its brother the L227WTG, so it might be a good pick. It also has overdrive that you can turn off, and a dedicated 4:3 mode in the OSD.

That sounds good. The input lag numbers on digitalversus.com are a bit higher for the LG than the Samsung, but I have no idea how accurate those tests are. It definitely sounds like a much nicer display to me than the L227WTG due to the matte finish and standard gamut.

I noticed you said that you were ordering a W2252TQ a while ago in the thread here about it, did you end up keeping it?

To put 75hz into perspective, keep in mind that a 75hz refresh rate will bring you a frame every 13.333 milliseconds, while a 60hz refresh rate will bring you a frame every 16.666 milliseconds. I think that the difference is small enough that it shouldn't really affect your gaming. Additionally, it's not like CRT where 60hz will give you eyestrain, so there will be no flicker at 60.
10e

Yeah, I know the refresh rate has no effect on flickering on an LCD. I'm more concerned about how choppy 60Hz makes motion look in games (or pretty much anything for that matter).

I've been using a CRT at 100Hz or more for the past six years, and it's just been too difficult to give up incredibly smooth gaming at 100 FPS so far to transition to an LCD. That's a 10ms delay between each frame, but the difference between that and 60Hz at 16.67 ms is basically night and day. 75Hz would still be a major compromise, but at least it's a middle ground between the two.

 

[ToastyX]

Do you happen to remember if 75Hz was selectable in Windows, or did you need to force it through a third party app like Powerstrip?

You have to add a custom resolution.

 

[10e]

I never ended up picking it up.

I run through monitors like beers lately looking for "THE" screen. I never got it because I was occupied at work, but I have gone to the store looking for it to see the quality, just haven't found it yet.

Many prefer it over the L227WTG from LG due to better factory colors and matte screen. It also has overdrive that you can turn on and off which is a handy feature. It looks very customizable.

I think many people care about high refresh, it's just that they either counteract it by turning off Vsync and watching tearing, or adjust to 60hz after using LCDs for long enough with Vsync on. Also with some of the higher resolutions (1920x1080/1200) most single card solutions don't hit 100 fps most of the time with AA and high AF, so I guess it got lost in the mix.

There is also the issue of limited digital bandwidth for higher refresh rates at the higher resolutions which can mean having to step it down to lower resolutions for higher FPS.

Regards,

10e

 

[Tosan]

Thanks for the feedback. I may end up trying both monitors.

I think many people care about high refresh, it's just that they either counteract it by turning off Vsync and watching tearing, or adjust to 60hz after using LCDs for long enough with Vsync on. Also with some of the higher resolutions (1920x1080/1200) most single card solutions don't hit 100 fps most of the time with AA and high AF, so I guess it got lost in the mix.

Disabling vertical sync doesn't make motion any smoother on a 60 Hz LCD -- you're still limited to 60 images per second. The only reason to do it would be to reduce input lag and video memory usage.

edit: ToastyX, I saw a post you made in a different thread about the 226BW where you said it was actually capable of running 85 Hz (albeit for a few seconds). Did you happen to try anything between those two refresh rates that worked? I'm somewhat surprised that worked at all since it's outside of the monitor's quoted vertical frequency in the specifications -- maybe those specs aren't entirely accurate for all of the different panels.

 

[10e]

Frame rates improve too because the card is not "waiting" to display a frame before rendering the next. Of course frame rate swings are bigger.

I can do 75hz on my BenQ G2400W too, but only at 1280x1024.

If you can live with this lower resolution, by all means, find a monitor you may be interested in and download the manual to see what resolutions support 75hz, so you can be sure.

Remember, unlike analog, digital displays have bandwidth limitations for higher resolutions that are dependent on single link limits, whereas with analog it was always more dependent on display bandwidth or video card bandwidth, and cabling just had to be good and short.

Regards,

10e

 

[ToastyX]

ToastyX, I saw a post you made in a different thread about the 226BW where you said it was actually capable of running 85 Hz (albeit for a few seconds). Did you happen to try anything between those two refresh rates that worked?

I was able to get it up to 77 Hz before it gave the "not optimum mode" message.

 

[young boy]

Yeah, I know the refresh rate has no effect on flickering on an LCD. I'm more concerned about how choppy 60Hz makes motion look in games (or pretty much anything for that matter).

I've been using a CRT at 100Hz or more for the past six years, and it's just been too difficult to give up incredibly smooth gaming at 100 FPS so far to transition to an LCD. That's a 10ms delay between each frame, but the difference between that and 60Hz at 16.67 ms is basically night and day. 75Hz would still be a major compromise, but at least it's a middle ground between the two.

Slow movement on the 226bw looks pretty good but once you make your normal surffing mouse speed, it gets blurry. That's my opinon.

I was able to get it up to 77 Hz before it gave the "not optimum mode" message.

How do you do that?

 

[ToastyX]

You have to add a custom resolution either through your video card driver or a utility like PowerStrip.

 

[Tosan]

I just picked up a W2252TQ at my local Best Buy and it was simply awful. I returned it after about an hour of messing with it, since it was clearly hopeless. The only good thing I can think of to say about it is that it did support 75 Hz at 1680x1050 without dropping frames.

The only store left around here that seems to have any 226BWs is Circuit City, and I'm not sure how many they have either. I may try and pick one up next week, though I'm a bit put off by the panel lottery.

 

[Uberbob102000]

Now I'm interested in this... I have a W2207 with the LG.Phillips panel and does anyone know if it does 75Hz w/o dropping frames.

 

[Tosan]

If you have an Nvidia card, add 1680x1050 at 75 Hz as a custom resolution in the control panel. Be sure to set the timing standard to reduced blanking (I believe it's called "CVT reduced blank") in the advanced menu. Once you've done that, 75 Hz should be selectable in the control panel or normally through Windows. PowerStrip is also an option, though it's mostly incompatible with the 8 and 9 series of Nvidia cards.

The frame skipping effect is very easy to see when moving the mouse or playing a game, and you should be able to spot it fairly easily if your LCD does it.

 

[young boy]

You have to add a custom resolution either through your video card driver or a utility like PowerStrip.

If you have an Nvidia card, add 1680x1050 at 75 Hz as a custom resolution in the control panel. Be sure to set the timing standard to reduced blanking (I believe it's called "CVT reduced blank") in the advanced menu. Once you've done that, 75 Hz should be selectable in the control panel or normally through Windows. PowerStrip is also an option, though it's mostly incompatible with the 8 and 9 series of Nvidia cards.

The frame skipping effect is very easy to see when moving the mouse or playing a game, and you should be able to spot it fairly easily if your LCD does it.

I'm using the 8 series so powerstrip is out. Thanks for that tip on the driver! What's blanking?

Btw, the 169.25 driver does not allow me to have a custom resolution. What's next?

 

[TranzAddict]

Tosan...you dont happened to be the rogue Tosan that plays WOW right?

 

[HuKuTo]

If you have an Nvidia card, add 1680x1050 at 75 Hz as a custom resolution in the control panel. Be sure to set the timing standard to reduced blanking (I believe it's called "CVT reduced blank") in the advanced menu. Once you've done that, 75 Hz should be selectable in the control panel or normally through Windows. PowerStrip is also an option, though it's mostly incompatible with the 8 and 9 series of Nvidia cards.

The frame skipping effect is very easy to see when moving the mouse or playing a game, and you should be able to spot it fairly easily if your LCD does it.

Are you sure, that you managed to set it at 1680x1050 @75hz ? I was thinking of buying l227wt, but owners reported that it can`t support 75hz at 16:10 through DVI, which is huge disadvantage for me. And condisering that the difference between w2252 and l227wt is only the wide color gamut i`m very surpriced, that it`s capable of 75hz.
btw you can try l226wtq, it can support all resolutions, but the native, @75hz

 

[Uberbob102000]

I think that you have to be on VGA because using DVI my w2207 freaks out. Not even going to try this on my 305T

 

[Tosan]

Btw, the 169.25 driver does not allow me to have a custom resolution. What's next?

The 174.xx beta drivers added support for custom resolutions in Vista.

Are you sure, that you managed to set it at 1680x1050 @75hz ? I was thinking of buying l227wt, but owners reported that it can`t support 75hz at 16:10 through DVI, which is huge disadvantage for me. And condisering that the difference between w2252 and l227wt is only the wide color gamut i`m very surpriced, that it`s capable of 75hz.
btw you can try l226wtq, it can support all resolutions, but the native, @75hz

Yes, I'm sure. It was on DVI. There wasn't any frame skipping, and the OSD displayed 1680x1050 at 75 Hz as the current resolution. If my experience with it is anything to go by, I would wait for some reviews before rushing out to buy it.

Tosan...you dont happened to be the rogue Tosan that plays WOW right?

I doubt it. Haven't touched the game in nearly two years, and I only played for a few months when I did.

 

[HuKuTo]

Yes, I'm sure. It was on DVI. There wasn't any frame skipping, and the OSD displayed 1680x1050 at 75 Hz as the current resolution. If my experience with it is anything to go by, I would wait for some reviews before rushing out to buy it.

That`s great ! This looks like the perfekt monitor for me then But why have you returned yours ? You said, it was awful. Share us your thoughts on it. Something like a little review will be very appreciated!

 

[Nicksterr]

Be sure to set the timing standard to reduced blanking (I believe it's called "CVT reduced blank") in the advanced menu.

Why "CVT reduced blank" versus "auto"?

edit: I tried creating a res for 1280x1024 75hz on my 19" fullscreen, but the cpanel wouldn't show it created after i tested and clicked "ok".

1280x1024 75hz is a default option though if I don't install the monitor inf file.

 

[Tosan]

I'm almost not sure whether my results were typical of the W2252TQ or not, because there actually seem to be a few people here who liked theirs. It's the first 22" TN I've used, but I've used smaller TNs before and none of them looked like this.

The brightness was dialed up to crazily high settings out of the box as some others have already mentioned, but even after reducing it to 0 the screen was way too bright. This was probably my biggest issue with it, because it resulted in a very washed out and indistinct picture that I could seemingly do nothing to correct.

From what little I could tell, there definitely seemed to be a blue dominance, or at least something was wrong with the colors. At the default 6500K color temperature it wasn't too obvious on the desktop, but every game I tried on it looked wrong. At 9300K, it was excessively blue. My W2252TQ also made a very annoying high pitched buzzing sound when the power was connected to it but the PC was off (or if the DVI cable wasn't connected).

Maybe there are some quality control issues with these, because honestly, the image quality was so bad on mine that I can't imagine anyone being happy with this monitor. I've seen some pretty cheap LCDs that looked worlds better than this, and were also TN panels.

Why "CVT reduced blank" versus "auto"?

edit: I tried creating a res for 1280x1024 75hz on my 19" fullscreen, but the cpanel wouldn't show it created after i tested and clicked "ok".

1280x1024 75hz is a default option though if I don't install the monitor inf file.

Reduced blanking lowers the bandwidth requirements by eliminating some things from the DVI signal that were designed for CRTs and should in theory be more likely to work. I think most modern LCDs should support it.

Getting custom resolutions to work can be a pain sometimes. I don't really know what to suggest other than not installing the .inf file if it doesn't work, or trying a different driver version.

 

[HuKuTo]

Well, i`ve managed to set my l226wtq at native resolution 1680x1050 @76hz and i`m perfectly happy with it ! Now when playing cs and cs:s with fps_max 76 and vsych off ( because it adds little input lag) i don`t see any frames skipping, there`s just very slight tearing, but it`s no problem for me. I can tell you that the difference between 60hz and 75hz in cs is huge and very easy to see. I think that other LG models will be able to run @75 herz. I`ve used Powerstrip to set custom pixel refresh rate and clock. If there are other owners, that wanna try i`ll explain it in detail.