FlowGaming, looks good man! I read through this thread and I'm dissapointed in a lot of the negative responses. Some advice is fine, but 8 pages of it gets a little old. All the haters can go to hell. This is the [H]ard|Forum after all. Also, RAID-10 is not overkill.
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20x Computer Build Help
- Thread starter FlowGaming
- Start date
FlowGaming
Limp Gawd
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Thank you man 
like I said. I will have the full work load up very soon =D
like I said. I will have the full work load up very soon =D
I'm interested in the after-effects of the builds (server included), and the problems you run in to. After reading 8 pages of constructive criticism (yes, some flaming, but mostly people were just saying go with a vendor) and finally seeing you post a pic of the system, I'm very curious to see what happens now. Also, your thoughts on the whole matter would be nice as well (ie: Would it have been better to go with Dell or IBM? Are there any changes you would have done? What has this taught you?) Anyway, seems to be that you're just working along, getting everything sorted out. Best of luck. As many have said, building is just the first step, support is the rest of the ladder. Hope you and your two friends can do the job.
As far as folding on these things, that's iffy, very, very iffy. My advice, if you're going to fold, it better be on office downtime, when the place is closed and all medical related programs have been shut down. Fold during business hours and it gets real sticky. For instance, I'm sure your dad has some sort of malpractice insurance that covers mistakes that he makes. But what happens to things he can't control, like comps that are folding during business hours? Sure, the medical programs don't need all that cpu power, so you fold. Take this example, your dad runs into some technical difficulties, some patient's data is lost. No biggie, you have backups. Now what if the data isn't lots, it's somehow corrupted? If that patient finds out that you're folding, it's hello lawsuit. Non-business related activity done on a comp during business hours causing data corruption. Sure, very unlikely, almost impossible, but you're going to need a lawyer and a computer expert to tell that to a jury. It's the same reason that the comps in my dad's office aren't connected to the internet, only the practice's intranet. So that nurses don't check email, go online shopping, etc and pretty much get paid to do jack. Sure, what's it to my dad if we pay nurses to shop online when there's no patient coming in. But for that one patient that find out that his daughter had a complication because a nurse couldn't rush to the exam room in time because she was online shopping... now that's a problem. We get rid of that issue all together by not having internet on computers in the front desk and exam rooms.
Bottom line: just don't fold while your dad is working. When the office is open, it's business, and business is your priority when it comes down to something like this.
As far as folding on these things, that's iffy, very, very iffy. My advice, if you're going to fold, it better be on office downtime, when the place is closed and all medical related programs have been shut down. Fold during business hours and it gets real sticky. For instance, I'm sure your dad has some sort of malpractice insurance that covers mistakes that he makes. But what happens to things he can't control, like comps that are folding during business hours? Sure, the medical programs don't need all that cpu power, so you fold. Take this example, your dad runs into some technical difficulties, some patient's data is lost. No biggie, you have backups. Now what if the data isn't lots, it's somehow corrupted? If that patient finds out that you're folding, it's hello lawsuit. Non-business related activity done on a comp during business hours causing data corruption. Sure, very unlikely, almost impossible, but you're going to need a lawyer and a computer expert to tell that to a jury. It's the same reason that the comps in my dad's office aren't connected to the internet, only the practice's intranet. So that nurses don't check email, go online shopping, etc and pretty much get paid to do jack. Sure, what's it to my dad if we pay nurses to shop online when there's no patient coming in. But for that one patient that find out that his daughter had a complication because a nurse couldn't rush to the exam room in time because she was online shopping... now that's a problem. We get rid of that issue all together by not having internet on computers in the front desk and exam rooms.
Bottom line: just don't fold while your dad is working. When the office is open, it's business, and business is your priority when it comes down to something like this.
zero_vertical
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teck
lol
lol
zero_vertical
Gawd
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Nah. Too easy.
Night Black
Gawd
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Apart from the folding, I am amazed that you pulled it off. Good for you.
TheRapture
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He asked for opinions, he got them. And the REAL work is ALWAYS in the stuff afterwards, and that is what we were trying to get across, but oh well.
He didn't pull anything off. Assembling twenty computers requires little more than patience, a screwdriver and time. Actually getting the whole network, medical software, backup solution, etc. to work in a reliable fashion and providing tech support is the tough part.
FlowGaming
Limp Gawd
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I am going to post pictures when I have almost everything done. That way I can make one
good post and not have a week go by without an update.
Folding- I orignally thought that this would be no prob an etc. I am going to leave them off
the pc.
The build was easy as can be. I only had a mb, ram, psu, and cpu go bad. I have stress
test all the systems without a prob at all. I also went back and changed all the cd keys
and have everything changed over the way that they need to be. (this was extreamly easy
and only took about 8 hours)
Yesterday I ran wires all over the place and even had to redue what patterson did before.
There was one point of Patterson's wireing where there where 3x switches in a line. The
best part about that was.... that it went to the server ;/
more to come
at school ;P
good post and not have a week go by without an update.
Folding- I orignally thought that this would be no prob an etc. I am going to leave them off
the pc.
The build was easy as can be. I only had a mb, ram, psu, and cpu go bad. I have stress
test all the systems without a prob at all. I also went back and changed all the cd keys
and have everything changed over the way that they need to be. (this was extreamly easy
and only took about 8 hours)
Yesterday I ran wires all over the place and even had to redue what patterson did before.
There was one point of Patterson's wireing where there where 3x switches in a line. The
best part about that was.... that it went to the server ;/
more to come
at school ;P
I'm glad you decided to can the folding.
I'm late to the game, so I won't offer any criticism over not using an OEM for the PC's. If you haven't picked out a firewall yet, do give the sonicwalls a good look. Ours has been solid. We use Symantec corporate. Look into volume licensing for it and you can save a good bit of money. If you don't know where to start with the volume stuff, a vendor like CDW will be right up your alley.
Don't go cheap on backup. It'll save your tail. Tape is the ideal way to go.
I'm late to the game, so I won't offer any criticism over not using an OEM for the PC's. If you haven't picked out a firewall yet, do give the sonicwalls a good look. Ours has been solid. We use Symantec corporate. Look into volume licensing for it and you can save a good bit of money. If you don't know where to start with the volume stuff, a vendor like CDW will be right up your alley.
Don't go cheap on backup. It'll save your tail. Tape is the ideal way to go.
Trepidati0n
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While the [H] may have some very bright people, just following what they say does absolutely nothing for us. The advice is meant to be just that. Just because he didn't follow your advice doesn't mean he didn't read it and see whether or not he wanted to follow it. Advice is related to "could" or "should", not "must".
The OP is trying to flex his own muscles...who knows, we all may learn something from this. But all this attitude of "will fail", makes me quite sad. Off all the people that keep saying OEM is better, I really haven't seen any numbers to back up those claims. If you really wanna claim that Dell is better, pony up some numbers and some data instead of saying just "trust me".
There is many ways through the forest. Some people may choose to follow the path, some make their own...and some just take a chain saw and go straight to the end. I'm just afraid that too many people here jump on the bandwagon that works and never get off that wagon to try another.
The comments of "will fail" need to stop now and we should be focusing on "how'd it go" and "what did you learn". We may get some validation and maybe some new ideas.
The OP is trying to flex his own muscles...who knows, we all may learn something from this. But all this attitude of "will fail", makes me quite sad. Off all the people that keep saying OEM is better, I really haven't seen any numbers to back up those claims. If you really wanna claim that Dell is better, pony up some numbers and some data instead of saying just "trust me".
There is many ways through the forest. Some people may choose to follow the path, some make their own...and some just take a chain saw and go straight to the end. I'm just afraid that too many people here jump on the bandwagon that works and never get off that wagon to try another.
The comments of "will fail" need to stop now and we should be focusing on "how'd it go" and "what did you learn". We may get some validation and maybe some new ideas.
The main use of an OEM system is efficiency and support. A short call to CDW and the FedEx truck drops 40 boxes on your doorstep two days later, complete with three-year warranties and 24/7 technical support. Any DOAs are replaced by advance exchanges. The two file servers with their integrated tape drives arrive on the same truck. Two days after that, the network is up and the money is in my pocket (and it stays there, since the OEM eats warranty repairs).
On low- and mid-range systems, the OEMs beat you to death with pricing and bundled software. I've ordered dual-core systems with LCDs, Windows XP, Office 2003 and the full version of Acrobat for less than $800. I can't buy the software for that price, much less buy the parts and provide warranty support. I make more money per unit buying and deploying an OEM box than providing my own hardware because of the price difference.
(The real money isn't in the hardware. It's in the support and administration contracts that come later. For a medical imaging system, the installation charge alone is going to be worth more than the hardware markup was, not to mention the monthly service charges.)
Trepidati0n
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Since you have this knowledge, apply that versus what the OP posted. He pretty much listed what he bought and what he paid for it. This would be a true comparison to trade the differences. This is what I and others would like to see.
So far you gave an example...but it was an orange compared to his apple.
Just a quick build using his specs, without applying my Premier discount or any web specials:
Dell Dimension 520
Core 2 Duo 6300
1 GB RAM
7300 Video
250GB hard drive drive
DVD RW
Vista installed (we'll reimage to XP anyway)
$719
$868 with Office 2007
Trade the Core 2 in for a 915 or 4300 and knock $150 off the price (which the OP admitted was overkill and was included for Folding).
Real world, since these are imaging stations, I'd kick in my corporate discount and switch the 520s with Precision 390 workstations (e6300, 2GB RAM, 250GB HD, Quadro 285 video, 3-year Gold support contract) for $768 each. OEMs own the low end.
Hours spent building and testing systems: zero.
Trepidati0n
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Now those are numbers I don't think were ever presented previously. Nice information there sir. Question, how does the average person go about getting the corporate discount? Is there just a minimum buy...some up front fee? This is the truely curious information. Sorry for derail.
I ask a lot of questions to stimulate some thoughts in OP and others who might be contemplating similar projects. If the questions seem paranoid it is because I was captured by a cult for 3 years.
I'm trying to figure what my 'short answer' would be if a business owner came to me and said, 'Would it be all right if we did farming on our business machines?'
Best of luck to OP, Dad, and patients!
PinataUT
I've put the questions in yellow so they are easy to skip if you're not interested!
Anyhow some questions:
Does the Dad know that the son plans on using the servers for folding? Is the Dad the sole owner of the business? Is the business a sole proprietorship or some other business entity? Are there any terms in the licensing or documentation of the medical software regarding additional uses of the equipment? Are there any requirements for privacy, data retention, and/or back-ups by insurance, medical board, other regulatory agencies that might be impacted by the folding?
God forbid, if something were to happen to Dad, would a new business owner standing in the shoes of Dad think of a) server farm used for folding, or b) unsupported server installation?
If Dad were to try to sell the business, attract addtional $ for expansion, add an office, add partner(s) would using the servers as a folding farm be something that could kill or reduce the value of a deal?
Is folding a charity? Deductible?
What any of us think are the answers is not particularly important - Dad's thoughts on these and similar questions should be important to OP.
If you're trying to prove an unprofessional environment (e.g. in a malpractice case), this type of usage of the servers seems to be something a med mal attorney would like to find. That and this thread through google.
Also, would using the servers for this type of personal project be evidence that any corporate structure is really just for show? (e.g. part of a larger pattern of using corporate assets as personal assets so claims against the corporate structure poke through creating personal liability)
I'm not proposing any particular course of action just that it would be nice if Dad had a chance to decide what info was relevant. As I stated above, OP may have done that kind of thing already.
I think that althrough OP may have caught some 'hate,' he's caught some good advice.
I'm trying to figure what my 'short answer' would be if a business owner came to me and said, 'Would it be all right if we did farming on our business machines?'
Best of luck to OP, Dad, and patients!
PinataUT
I've put the questions in yellow so they are easy to skip if you're not interested!
Anyhow some questions:
Does the Dad know that the son plans on using the servers for folding? Is the Dad the sole owner of the business? Is the business a sole proprietorship or some other business entity? Are there any terms in the licensing or documentation of the medical software regarding additional uses of the equipment? Are there any requirements for privacy, data retention, and/or back-ups by insurance, medical board, other regulatory agencies that might be impacted by the folding?
God forbid, if something were to happen to Dad, would a new business owner standing in the shoes of Dad think of a) server farm used for folding, or b) unsupported server installation?
If Dad were to try to sell the business, attract addtional $ for expansion, add an office, add partner(s) would using the servers as a folding farm be something that could kill or reduce the value of a deal?
Is folding a charity? Deductible?
What any of us think are the answers is not particularly important - Dad's thoughts on these and similar questions should be important to OP.
If you're trying to prove an unprofessional environment (e.g. in a malpractice case), this type of usage of the servers seems to be something a med mal attorney would like to find. That and this thread through google.
Also, would using the servers for this type of personal project be evidence that any corporate structure is really just for show? (e.g. part of a larger pattern of using corporate assets as personal assets so claims against the corporate structure poke through creating personal liability)
I'm not proposing any particular course of action just that it would be nice if Dad had a chance to decide what info was relevant. As I stated above, OP may have done that kind of thing already.
I think that althrough OP may have caught some 'hate,' he's caught some good advice.
I've never seen a fee for setting up an account, usually just a $20 business license and federal tax ID number to make it look official. Discounts vary depending on how much you buy, but large individual orders can usually be negotiated down regardless of your purchasing history. The best deals involve calling an account rep at the end of a month - ordering 20 systems with monitors and support contracts is a lot of leverage on someone trying to make his monthly quota. If the guy is convinced you're going to be buying two dozen workstations and a few file servers every few weeks, he'll be very helpful.
(Places like CDW can be used to negotiate prices on other brands like HP. A lot of HP gear is pre-built and sitting in warehouses, so it ships faster than using Dell's build-to-order system. Make them pricematch each other.)
to get corporate pricing you gota sign up for there reseller account. you gotta be moving computers not just doing it to get the discounts.
we get it at my work too, its great when u pick up multiple computers, i remember getting optiplex gx520 for 500 with lcd a while back, but we had 10 of em.
we get it at my work too, its great when u pick up multiple computers, i remember getting optiplex gx520 for 500 with lcd a while back, but we had 10 of em.
If you're buying enough systems, they don't care if it's for resale or for internal use. The last few places I worked at all had corporate accounts and none were resellers. (It's amazing the amount of arm-twisting you can put on an account rep when you have 2000 machines coming up for lease renewal.)
Of course, Dell also puts the squeeze on their corporate accounts every so often, so you have to double-check their prices. Some of our quotes have come back higher than if we had purchased the same systems straight off the website. Call two reps on two different days and you'll get four different prices (and at least one claim that web price was an error).
I am not sure that the ``hard'' part of his job is over yet. thanks for the pic, it looks nice.
I was actually talking to my dad about this project not that long ago, and it seems that a couple years ago Blue Cross made some massive deal with medical groups (my dad's included) for computers, all of which were Dell (P4 2.4Ghz, 1GB ram, 80GB hdd, 128mb video). Price? JUST PAY THE TAX FOR EACH COMP. So, like give or take around $60-$90. Not quite sure how Blue Cross pulled it off, maybe it was a promotion for medical groups, but I must say, now I know why we have a couple of these at home. I guess "group buys" can seriously bring the price down. Anyway, OP, WE NEED MORE PICS!!
mista ting
Gawd
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you mean 1,700? or am i seeing thinges
If you're buying enough systems, they don't care if it's for resale or for internal use. The last few places I worked at all had corporate accounts and none were resellers. (It's amazing the amount of arm-twisting you can put on an account rep when you have 2000 machines coming up for lease renewal.)
Of course, Dell also puts the squeeze on their corporate accounts every so often, so you have to double-check their prices. Some of our quotes have come back higher than if we had purchased the same systems straight off the website. Call two reps on two different days and you'll get four different prices (and at least one claim that web price was an error).
You have 2 reps? We only had 1 guy we sent the carts from. But yeah sometime is bs, get the same price as if u can get as a first time buyer. But usually they do something, free shipping, better wararnty.
But yeah its always good when you order a bunch of computers that come with freebies(monitors), which the client doesn't want, and u profit a free monitor heh.
But yeah man, Dell seems to way to go for buisness, i haven't had to build a custom machine in such a long time. After about a year or so, computers always had problem, harddrive crashes, motheboard shot, cheap video card fan died. Always was such a problem, and then having to hear from clients about how your home built machines are shit, we swapped over to the OEM solution.
Get the machines in, remove the crap software, install new stuff, and 1 hour later client has a machine.
zero_vertical
Gawd
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SEVENTEEN MILLION DOLLARS!!!
I have two identities as myself, plus one I share with someone, plus I call as the customer. If I don't get the answer I want from one rep, I switch hats and call another. It's can be an annoyance sometimes, but even small adjustments add up on large orders.
Then I call CDW and ask, "I'm looking at two dozen Dell 520's for $719 each - what do you have from HP that compares?"
(Another loophole: Most of the Dell systems offer significant discounts on the price of the monitor upgrade. On systems that support dual monitors, the discount often applies to both monitors. On a 20-box order, you can order 40 discounted monitors and resell the spares. Catch them during one of their "free printer" specials and you almost have enough stock for your own eBay store.)
dbwillis
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I havent seen much on the server build...
so your also going to have to setup Active Directory, DNS and DHCP, file & print, all the user accounts as well?
(please dont tell me this is going to be 1 big workgroup)
so your also going to have to setup Active Directory, DNS and DHCP, file & print, all the user accounts as well?
(please dont tell me this is going to be 1 big workgroup)
TheRapture
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Hehe...maybe the workgroup name will get changed from "workgroup" to "dentist office"
dbwillis
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right there any profit is gone with the amount of time youll spend configuring each user account, on each PC
If they all have the exact same specs. Ghost one hard drive and clone it to all 20. It'll save you a lot of time. But yeah, look into Dell too. It's going to take a long time to build 20 machines, and supporting them all yourself will be a pain in the but.
swatbat
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right there any profit is gone with the amount of time youll spend configuring each user account, on each PC
This kid is doing this as a learning experience for his dads office. Profit is in the learning.
OP has already built the machines. Sounded like he already ghosted them too. From what he said it sounds like he ghosted the image without presealing it. I get that from a comment the op made about going back and changing the cd keys. While it would have been easer to preseal the image and just enter the name for each machine and cdkey the way he did it works and it doesn't sound like he wasted but so much time for a first timer.
Yes the OP should have prob listened to the people here more but it is done. No point on people still telling him to order a bunch of dells or go to cdw and get hps or something if the machines are built and imaged.
Yep, no point is crying over spilled milk. Since he's already built the systems, we just want pics, results, and overall comments on how everything went.
To OP: I've asked before, but what were your thoughts on the project? Anything you would have changed or done differently? What problems did you face, how did you tackle them, and what did you learn?
dbwillis
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Any update?
Flow:
The reason people are concerned is that requiring 20 computers for technical work, particularly medical work, implies a somewhat sophisticated organization, with HIGH requirements for redundancy. It appears that Patterson Dental is just trying to skim off the side - if all they're doing is selling you the systems at that price, then yes, this is a ripoff. But not for the reasons you think. The hardware, as mentioned before, is pretty much nothing. Dell would have been a bit easier at about the same price, and importantly would have had much, much more support, but even that's not quite the point. That's not the big deal.
Supporting an actual requirement for 20 medical imaging machines(and I'm assuming several non-imaging machines) is usually a FULL TIME job for a highly accredited person who's familiar with numerous legal, security, and upper-level networking requirements. Perhaps more than one. I could see if your dad ran the show solo, and needed one or two computers. But a need for 20 rooms of X-ray machines? That's a serious fucking operation. It's not just him, it's his coworkers and partners that are utterly dependant on having a network up and running the entire day.
I think you understand this after this many posts... but does your dad? The fact that he would allow you to do this on your own suggests he's not very knowledgeable on the topic. I don't think he realizes that he needs these things, he's just aware that you're good with building computers and you're able to hook up the home network... and he thinks this is all he needs.
If someone drops that backup hard drive, and someone else presses delete... you are in deep, deep shit. Cancel every surgical appointment with every dentist for the next week, and call everyone back in to get their scans redone. While dentistry is somewhat less of a minefield than non-elective medical fields, it's entirely possible for someone to sue for malpractice and bankrupt your father for pulling the wrong tooth, or in the case of general anesthetics and their contraindications, for someone to die.
Get an IT professional... at the very least part-time, a few hours a day, or every other day. I understand that you think you can swap in a part if needed, or write contingency plans incase a keyboard fails, or design a simple backup system. But the actual requirements to ensure reliable operation are high, and reliable operation is so critical that they shouldn't have to rely on a college student to fulfill them. For one thing, they need someone they can fire as a political maneuver, much less a performance oriented one.
Building the computers... okay, you done good. You know what there is to know to do that. But don't make a large dental practice a sandbox so that you can learn networking and proper data hygiene. Physical X-ray slides and fluorescent lights are much, much harder to destroy than a network.
The reason people are concerned is that requiring 20 computers for technical work, particularly medical work, implies a somewhat sophisticated organization, with HIGH requirements for redundancy. It appears that Patterson Dental is just trying to skim off the side - if all they're doing is selling you the systems at that price, then yes, this is a ripoff. But not for the reasons you think. The hardware, as mentioned before, is pretty much nothing. Dell would have been a bit easier at about the same price, and importantly would have had much, much more support, but even that's not quite the point. That's not the big deal.
Supporting an actual requirement for 20 medical imaging machines(and I'm assuming several non-imaging machines) is usually a FULL TIME job for a highly accredited person who's familiar with numerous legal, security, and upper-level networking requirements. Perhaps more than one. I could see if your dad ran the show solo, and needed one or two computers. But a need for 20 rooms of X-ray machines? That's a serious fucking operation. It's not just him, it's his coworkers and partners that are utterly dependant on having a network up and running the entire day.
I think you understand this after this many posts... but does your dad? The fact that he would allow you to do this on your own suggests he's not very knowledgeable on the topic. I don't think he realizes that he needs these things, he's just aware that you're good with building computers and you're able to hook up the home network... and he thinks this is all he needs.
If someone drops that backup hard drive, and someone else presses delete... you are in deep, deep shit. Cancel every surgical appointment with every dentist for the next week, and call everyone back in to get their scans redone. While dentistry is somewhat less of a minefield than non-elective medical fields, it's entirely possible for someone to sue for malpractice and bankrupt your father for pulling the wrong tooth, or in the case of general anesthetics and their contraindications, for someone to die.
Get an IT professional... at the very least part-time, a few hours a day, or every other day. I understand that you think you can swap in a part if needed, or write contingency plans incase a keyboard fails, or design a simple backup system. But the actual requirements to ensure reliable operation are high, and reliable operation is so critical that they shouldn't have to rely on a college student to fulfill them. For one thing, they need someone they can fire as a political maneuver, much less a performance oriented one.
Building the computers... okay, you done good. You know what there is to know to do that. But don't make a large dental practice a sandbox so that you can learn networking and proper data hygiene. Physical X-ray slides and fluorescent lights are much, much harder to destroy than a network.
TheRapture
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Squalish....best_post_yet !!!
LGZdarkside
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Squalish,
Well said, Excellent advice for the young man.
Well said, Excellent advice for the young man.