2013: The Year You Switch To Linux?

[SkribbelKat]

I was listening to Anand's podcast and it's apparently an issue with Office and not Clover Trail, or any SoC itself. For some reason typing in MS Office is equivalent to running Crysis on 2007 hardware.

Shh! I'm having a lot of fun with this one and your acknowledgement of reality is adversely impacting my distortion fields!

 

[jwcalla]

Most of the Windows vs. Linux discussions usually come down to Photoshop. But I think it's an overplayed argument. Professionals who need Photoshop is probably 1% of the user base. It's a decent point to make, but nothing convincing.

Look at how many rely on Final Cut Pro, which is only available on OS X. Nobody would dismiss Windows as a viable platform just because it doesn't have Final Cut Pro.

Or look at all the animation firms that use Linux.

So professionals use the tools they need, but for average users it's not much of a play. As a software developer who is completely lost without a terminal, I recognize that I need Linux (or OS X) for my work, but not everybody that uses a computer needs terminal access.

 

[pelo]

Shh! I'm having a lot of fun with this one and your acknowledgement of reality is adversely impacting my distortion fields!

I'm just giving you more ammunition. Instead of only (rightfully) claiming the Clover Trail SoC sucks in x86 legacy landscape, you now also have the option of asserting that MS can't develop a piece of software that doesn't make systems crawl to a halt, which would again be spot on.

Is it a shocker that the same MS that created Office which takes a massive amount of resources just to type text also created tablet OS takes about 50% of a 32GB partition?

Okay, there you go. Now run with it.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm just giving you more ammunition. Instead of only (rightfully) claiming the Clover Trail SoC sucks in x86 legacy landscape, you now also have the option of asserting that MS can't develop a piece of software that doesn't make systems crawl to a halt, which would again be spot on.

LOL! I have no idea why you keep talking about a platform that you've never touched. Outside of the confines of a comfy forum like this you would be asked to actually demonstrate the things that you claim to know.

 

[pelo]

I've never completely dismissed GNU/Linux, to use you words. I think I've said many times that Linux is viable, even on a desktop for some people, can do many things, isn't hard to get a basic install setup, etc. It obviously is a great server OS. That said, it's nothing like Windows on a desktop and requires a good deal of effort sometimes to do things that are trivial on Windows.

Desktop Linux simply isn't a consumer friendly packaged product. That's not at all to say that it is crap.

You shouldn't talk about a product which you don't own and don't use.

Which, I guess if we were to apply that same logic everywhere, would imply that everyone should shut the fuck up, not bother listening to reviews or using benchmarks to assess a product's performance. And if you do, well... you shouldn't listen to it because you yourself don't own that product and therefore shouldn't pass any judgment.

Let me know when you're planning on leaving [H], heatless. I'm pretty fucking sure that you have no place here if you don't believe, read, nor follow product reviews.

 

[pelo]

Or are you just being pissy because you bought a shitty tablet and when hit with benchmarks and professional reviews you automatically go on the defensive?

Must feel nice, I'm sure.

 

[DeathPrincess]

Photoshop phones home to Adobe. The activation, in and of itself, is also spyware because that too, phones home to Adobe or forces you to contact them.

Thats not spyware. According to the FTC:

"Spyware: software that aids in gathering information about a person or organization without their knowledge and which may send such information to another entity without the consumer’s consent, or asserts control over a computer without the consumer’s knowledge."

As you are told about it during install that it is checking CD keys and thats you know, the information it sends...with your consent. Nor does it assert control over anything or read your emails. So there must be something more sinister going on here! What makes it spyware?

Professional use is a broad term. There are many different professional applications of image editors and it is impossible for a single application to be the best in all potential applications.

For example, CinePaint, a GIMP fork, is heavily used in the motion picture and animation industry.

If Heatlesssun gave that answer his ass would be raked over coals. You just completely didn't answer the question then started talking about something else. I said list the reasons how Gimp/other software was better than Photoshop or how it was more suitable for professional usage. I left that broad so you could have some scope. But, your reply contains 0 reasons. Thus it safe to assume there is no reason to consider Gimp.

CinePaint's site was made by a 12 year old in 1998, and only apparently got used up to 2003 (let last film it was used on thats listed... nor is the list of great enough numbers that it's "heavily used"). It's whole apparent reason for existing "it does 8/16/32 bit" is kind of weird, as thats done by everything else, and pretty much everything else is nicer to use than Gimp and it's awful brushes.

I have a background in computers and computer programming in particular. I have been programming since the DOS days; I first learned programming in Turbo Pascal. I was writing full-fledged Windows 3.1 applications when I was 8. I have enough experience in software to know when a piece of software is crap. One does not need to be a "professional digital artist" to see that Photoshop is bloated, slow, and inefficient. It takes forever to install, takes up a huge amount of disk-space and installs a bunch of stuff you may not want like Bridge and yet another auto-updated (my understanding is that Microsoft allows third-parties to use the Windows updater for their own software. A separate updater is superfluous.)

The program takes up 421mb... Any swapdisks for huge images depends on how little ram you have and how deep you set your history (aka it's up to you how much disk it uses).
The Master suite install (all 21 programs) took 20 minutes, so lets call that a whole minute.
Inefficient is hard to quantify but a 650mp image loads fine and works fine. Most other programs wont even open that, or save that (e.g. Painter). At 50 layers the save file is under a gb. It also works a pile than Gimp, and is much much more stable...
and takes 5 seconds to open.
During install you can deselect optional features.
The updater is only used for MS software like Windows itself and MS's programs like Live/MSE etc. But also it would make updates like updates on their console. It would take a while to get validated, so the only direct link would be what they have done. Unless you suggest going through another corperation is more efficient? You can also turn off auto update...

So unless it takes up 100mb of disk space, installs instantly, and uses a proprietary updater, you wont be happy?

We are comparing Apple and Apples. Blender is a "free" application, yet many "professionals" utilize it.

But still, when you look for employment in 3d modelling, Blender skills aren't something that will be looked for. 3dmax or Maya are more certain. The reason Blender gets used is probably because it has more obscure file format plugins, for whaetever reason.

 

[heatlesssun]

You shouldn't talk about a product which you don't own and don't use.

Which, I guess if we were to apply that same logic everywhere, would imply that everyone should shut the fuck up, not bother listening to reviews or using benchmarks to assess a product's performance. And if you do, well... you shouldn't listen to it because you yourself don't own that product and therefore shouldn't pass any judgment.

Let me know when you're planning on leaving [H], heatless. I'm pretty fucking sure that you have no place here if you don't believe, read, nor follow product reviews.

I actually have tried various distros of Linux over the years and have actually installed Ubuntu on x86 tablet hardware.

As for the benchmarks and reviews, while they can provide guidance they don't necessarily answer specific questions. If a review is in direct contradiction with what is right in font of me, what should I believe? Case in point, a number of reviews of the Samsung Ativ 500T talked of issues of not being able to download a file and do anything else simultaneously. I've noted multiple times that I could download a multi-gigabyte ISO file and do other things like web browsing, heck I just tried another thing that no review you ever read thought of, running Netflix while downloading Windows 8 from MSDN. Some slowdowns here and there but it actually worked well.

So one can look at reviews and benchmarks and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't take reviews and benchmarks and substitute them from real long terms experience. Most of the reviews and benchmarks that you've read for the 500T don't even account for probably half of the updates that have been sent out. Not saying that's good, however if you're looking at something from the past, well, that's from the past.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Most of the Windows vs. Linux discussions usually come down to Photoshop. But I think it's an overplayed argument. Professionals who need Photoshop is probably 1% of the user base. It's a decent point to make, but nothing convincing.

Look at how many rely on Final Cut Pro, which is only available on OS X. Nobody would dismiss Windows as a viable platform just because it doesn't have Final Cut Pro.

Or look at all the animation firms that use Linux.

So professionals use the tools they need, but for average users it's not much of a play. As a software developer who is completely lost without a terminal, I recognize that I need Linux (or OS X) for my work, but not everybody that uses a computer needs terminal access.

Photoshop is more of an every day tool though. Even non pros use it for things as simple as photoshopping a picture online and posting it in a funny thread, or making layout images for their website, or adding a caption on a picture. Heck, let's take adding a caption on a picture as an example. Say you want black text with a white outline so the text appears better on the image. In photoshop this is a 2 second thing, in Gimp you actually have to draw the outline by hand! Most say "screw it" and wont bother.

 

[SkribbelKat]

Or are you just being pissy because you bought a shitty tablet and when hit with benchmarks and professional reviews you automatically go on the defensive?

Must feel nice, I'm sure.

I'm taking option number two, thanks!

 

[pelo]

So one can look at reviews and benchmarks and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't take reviews and benchmarks and substitute them from real long terms experience. Most of the reviews and benchmarks that you've read for the 500T don't even account for probably half of the updates that have been sent out. Not saying that's good, however if you're looking at something from the past, well, that's from the past.

Which would make sense if not for the fact that you've been claiming otherwise since it was introduced. Your past and present tense haven't changed at all other than admit it's not as great as you thought it was. It wasn't too long ago that you were claiming the CPU performance was substantially better than the old netbook Atoms. That quickly gave way to 'it's still a bit faster' to 'it feels faster'. It feels faster because Intel did a lot to make sure Clover Trail performed at least halfway decently under Win8 with various optimizations and kernel support. As soon as you stray outside of Metro, though, it behaves just like you'd expect - which is to say it sucks.

People are still having WiFi issues even after the driver update and the eMMC storage is still slow (driver updates can't fix hardware bottlenecks). The GPU drivers are a lost cause because Intel relies on a 3rd party for the GPU and hasn't done any better here than they have in years past. You'll still be waiting months for a driver to fix a problem and then hoping that it actually works. CPU performance hasn't budged but at least the battery times are now roughly equivalent with the Acer/Intel built tablet.

Finally, there’s the state of Desktop performance. In Metro, the 500T shines. Application load times and overall performance are measurably faster than Surface. This is particularly true in twitch games, like Jetpack Joyride. Surface has a noticeable stutter; the Samsung keeps things smooth.

In Desktop mode, responsiveness and performance are great until you actually try to do something. Even small tasks, like simultaneously playing a video file while moving the mouse, lag noticeably. We couldn’t, for example, keep the Task Manager open while playing either of our high end Star Trek encodes. Attempting to manage both windows at once, even with one of them minimized, was too much for the 500T.

Desktop gaming is also out. While the 500T may be theoretically compatible with x86 games, the SGX545 can’t handle anything recent. Even Torchlight, in 640×480 netbook mode, with all details at their lowest values, was barely able to manage a mid-teens frame rate.

The nearly constant lag turns x86 software compatibility into more of a bullet point technicality than it really ought to be. It’s the sort of situation that might be fixable via driver updates, or might be a symptom of an underlying hardware bottleneck.

Unfortunately the driver updates haven't moved much along as far as performance goes. It performs like it does due to hardware and not the accompanying firmware/software. The disk space gobbled up by the bloated OS is still there and MS Office still thinks it's Crysis.

You like Microsoft. A lot. We get it. But that also makes us very wary when you offer up an opinion about anything related to MS, because you can pretty much bet on that opinion not being an impartial and unbiased one. That's where professional reviewers come in, and with their years of experience and this unbiased approach, we make our purchasing decisions and get advice for others looking to spend money. Nobody on the planet has either the time or money to buy every device on the market so they can do pass judgment. That's why reviewers and review sites are there. So how about you quit bringing up the stupidest argument I've ever seen because you're trying your best to defend a corporation, who only cares about you for your money, by tip-toeing, dancing and mental gymnastics to justify your own love for that corporation and all of its products.

Honestly, you deserve to be ridiculed along with every other fanboy and their respective beloved corporations, whether that's nVidia, Intel, AMD or Ikea or Ford. It's all fucking retarded. They only care about your wallet, so how about you start treating them the same way?

 

[heatlesssun]

Which would make sense if not for the fact that you've been claiming otherwise since it was introduced. Your past and present tense haven't changed at all other than admit it's not as great as you thought it was. It wasn't too long ago that you were claiming the CPU performance was substantially better than the old netbook Atoms. That quickly gave way to 'it's still a bit faster' to 'it feels faster'. It feels faster because Intel did a lot to make sure Clover Trail performed at least halfway decently under Win8 with various optimizations and kernel support. As soon as you stray outside of Metro, though, it behaves just like you'd expect - which is to say it sucks.

Wut? Look, you can make whatever judgments you want about Clover Trail devices never having used one. You've never used one and I use one daily. Your credibility on this subject goes no where beyond the comfy confines of Windows 8 opponents on this forum. Everything I've said about the device I can demonstrate in the real world.

 

[pelo]

Wut? Look, you can make whatever judgments you want about Clover Trail devices never having used one. You've never used one and I use one daily. Your credibility on this subject goes no where beyond the comfy confines of Windows 8 opponents on this forum. Everything I've said about the device I can demonstrate in the real world.

When your claims fly in the face of professional reviews and unbiased authors? Then what? Are the benchmarks doctored? Faked? Do they just really really hate MS? Should I take your opinion as fact or theirs?

I'm pretty sure Joel at ET and Anand have a just a bit more credibility than a random deluded MS fanboy.

 

[heatlesssun]

When your claims fly in the face of professional reviews and unbiased authors? Then what? Are the benchmarks doctored? Faked? Do they just really really hate MS? Should I take your opinion as fact or theirs?

I'm pretty sure Joel at ET and Anand have a just a bit more credibility than a random deluded MS fanboy.

I can demonstrate all of my claims in the real world, you can't.

 

[nOrVow]

Uh oh

Tough guy here gettin' personal.

 

[pelo]

Got it. Trust heatlesssun that he's got your back and will tell you the whole troof and nothin' but the troof (so help him Steve Ballmer) but ignore Joel Hruska, Anand, and many other reviews.

When you connect to the keyboard dock, the Smart PC behaves well as a very light duty laptop. The performance, as a laptop, is similar to netbooks, although the display resolution and keyboard makes for a much better experience than most netbooks. However, performance in any demanding application (photo editing, for example), is abysmal.

Performance: The Atom CPU's Disadvantage
That said, the tablet feels slow compared to Intel Core i5 Windows 8 convertibles and tablets when running in desktop mode. Desktop mode is that alternate universe available on all Windows 8 machines that largely mimics Windows 7. When in the new modern UI with Live Tiles, Atom machines like the ATIV 500T feel much more spritely. As with Windows 7 netbooks that largely ship with Intel Atom CPUs, this isn't something I'd recommend as a main machine, unlike Core i5 and i7 ULV products. It's better used to compliment an existing computer, much as one would use the MS Surface RT or Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1. That said, the 500T offers more functionality than those two since it can run Windows x86 apps, albeit more slowly than Intel Core i counterparts.

The Windows 8 Modern UI (formerly called Metro) is responsive enough because Microsoft has done a superb job of optimizing it for low end hardware. But for art students and professionals, the ATIV 500T can be frustrating: I found myself waiting for menu listings and palettes to appear after launching Corel Painter 12 (from the internal eMMC SSD, which should make for instantaneous launches) and Photoshop CS6 filters were sluggish. I've been using Painter 12 for years and have never seen this kind of launch sluggishness, and I noticed several other apps taking a long time to load. That said, most apps run decently after the slow-mo blast off. Multi-tasking is best done with restraint because the 32 bit CPU with 2 gigs of RAM can handle only so much. This is not a gaming machine by any means, though casual games and games from the Microsoft Store will play fine. Playback of 720p video is solid with full frame rates, but some 1080p videos dropped frame rates down to the lower to mid-20's from 30 fps (we didn't see this problem with the Atom-based competing Acer Iconia W510).

I'm sure you'll get right to replicating these tests and proving them wrong You'll have to excuse the rest of us when we question every single post you make, given that it's seemingly always positive and denies reality in favor of glorifying MS. Unsurprisingly, nearly every post you make is regarding MS, so that certainly makes it a lot easier to discard the lot of it.

 

[heatlesssun]

Uh oh

Tough guy here gettin' personal.

Nothing personal about it. He simply doesn't have the hardware to test anything that he has said about Clover Trail devices. I do. I see nothing personal in stating simple facts.

 

[heatlesssun]

Got it. Trust heatlesssun that he's got your back and will tell you the whole troof and nothin' but the troof (so help him Steve Ballmer) but ignore Joel Hruska, Anand, and many other reviews.

I've pointed out many times that something like a Samsung 500T doesn't offer anything in the way of top line performance and that it's not for PC gaming and intensive tasks. But it might very well offer enough performance for a lot of people looking to use some x86 applications.

 

[pelo]

Like playing a high quality video? Or using Office while doing something else? Gaming? Professional applications? I'm sure nobody does any of these things on x86

If you have to avoid all of these, what exactly are you getting from x86 legacy anyway? The performance is just like the old netbooks, and I'm sure you remember all of the raving reviews about how wonderfully the x86 legacy applications fared on those.

Really, which PC needs more than 2GB anyway? Decent GPU drivers? Really? Why bother? I'm sure it would just take up precious limited storage space without any tangible benefits anyway. The persistent WiFi issues? Don't worry about that. A fix will come sometime in the future. Nobody gets it right on their first or second or third attempt, right?

 

[odditory]

I'm really hoping this as well. I'm hoping Microsoft just jumps ship for personal computing for the most part and Linux just becomes the option to have for steam. It seems to be most of the reason people on this forum or anywhere don't convert, which is just gaming.

I'm really hoping for a lucky pot at the end of every rainbow. Linux and by extension Linux zealots would have to get out of their own way first before any kind of mass exodus to Steam on Linux.

 

[SkribbelKat]

Nothing personal about it. He simply doesn't have the hardware to test anything that he has said about Clover Trail devices. I do. I see nothing personal in stating simple facts.

And you don't professionally edit photos, yet comment on GIMP and PhotoShop. Double standards..you either have them or have a problem with short term memory loss. I'm going with the first one since you remember calling people cowards pretty well and still haven't replied to the fact that a Compaq Presario from Wal-Mart is more powerful and more productive than a Surface RT while being less expensive.

 

[heatlesssun]

Like playing a high quality video? Or using Office while doing something else? Gaming? Professional applications? I'm sure nobody does any of these things on x86

Give me specific examples of what you're talking about and I will test then.

If you have to avoid all of these, what exactly are you getting from x86 legacy anyway?

Avoid? Is testing and using something like Visual Studio 2012 avoiding x86 legacy? Ever read a review a 500T that even began to test applications like this? Ever a review that ever tested handwriting recognition speed and accuracy compare to an i5 Windows 8 device with the input panel or OneNote 2013.

The performance is just like the old netbooks, and I'm sure you remember all of the raving reviews about how wonderfully the x86 legacy applications fared on those.

I've got a couple of old netbook type devices and a Clover Trail and can easily demonstrate just how wrong your statement is.

Really, which PC needs more than 2GB anyway? Decent GPU drivers? Really? Why bother? I'm sure it would just take up precious limited storage space without any tangible benefits anyway. The persistent WiFi issues? Don't worry about that. A fix will come sometime in the future. Nobody gets it right on their first or second or third attempt, right?

You don't like or use Windows 8. Why do you want to keep debating things that you don't like or use? You're debating me constantly over a specific piece of hardware that you've never even seen in the real world. That's bizarre.

 

[cdr_74_premium]

Really, which PC needs more than 2GB anyway? Decent GPU drivers? Really? Why bother? I'm sure it would just take up precious limited storage space without any tangible benefits anyway. The persistent WiFi issues? Don't worry about that. A fix will come sometime in the future. Nobody gets it right on their first or second or third attempt, right?

This sounds a lot like... Linux!

 

[heatlesssun]

And you don't professionally edit photos, yet comment on GIMP and PhotoShop. Double standards..you either have them or have a problem with short term memory loss. I'm going with the first one since you remember calling people cowards pretty well and still haven't replied to the fact that a Compaq Presario from Wal-Mart is more powerful and more productive than a Surface RT while being less expensive.

I've never once commented about the differences between GIMP and Photoshop from a point of personal perspective. Not once. Have you ever tried GIMP or Photoshop even once on a Windows 8 device of any kind. I have.

 

[SkribbelKat]

Give me specific examples of what you're talking about and I will test then.

Go read a review...or is that giving site hits or YouTube views to people you envision as competition?

Avoid? Is testing and using something like Visual Studio 2012 avoiding x86 legacy? Ever read a review a 500T that even began to test applications like this? Ever a review that ever tested handwriting recognition speed and accuracy compare to an i5 Windows 8 device with the input panel or OneNote 2013.

Under a full moon, while standing on your head, in a building turned upside down. Nice dancing on the criteria there. Can you get any more pointlessly particular? (Don't answer that, we already know.)

I've got a couple of old netbook type devices and a Clover Trail and can easily demonstrate just how wrong your statement is.

I doubt pelo would believe in the claim that your demonstration will be unbiased. Plus, you probably don't own a modern Atom netbook.

You don't like or use Windows 8. Why do you want to keep debating things that you don't like or use? You're debating me constantly over a specific piece of hardware that you've never even seen in the real world. That's bizarre.

Dancing around addressing the specifics by changing the subject to a personal attack since you know things like the WiFi drivers or maybe the hardware itself is trash after having seen the problems personally.

 

[SkribbelKat]

I've never once commented about the differences between GIMP and Photoshop from a point of personal perspective. Not once. Have you ever tried GIMP or Photoshop even once on a Windows 8 device of any kind. I have.

Yes, I have. Then again, I'm not offering an opinion on either, just pointing out that you were commenting on some else's unqualified opinion while previously commenting without any professional experience either. It about hypocrisy and not about the software in specific. Don't be so dodgy; it doesn't dupe anyone but you into believing that what you do to people here is okay.

 

[pelo]

He did see the problems personally and even admitted to them being problems but never actually came out and said anything about the issues until I linked reviews which uncovered the issues. For heatless, it's all gravy until someone finds out that something's broken, at which point he'll confess that it's true. In fact, the CPU performance, the GPU performance, the WiFi and the eMMC all *still* have issues. The GPU performance might get a little better but the CPU won't. The eMMC won't get any faster with any software update. The WiFi has been an issue for a while now and stretches across manufacturers because it's tied to Intel. It was supposed to be fixed yet people and reviewers report that it's still acting up.

These are all things heatless never mentioned at all while having the product in hand. He knew the WiFi was a big problem but hadn't uttered a word about it until the reviews started coming in and mentioning it. He actually went so far as to claim ET's review was off and that it wasn't as bad as they made it seem, yet they actually went straight to Intel to confirm the issue.

I mean, for his sake you really hope he's being paid by MS, because if he isn't getting any $$$ out of this then he should find a new hobby.

 

[PornoSatan]

Linux is trying to be like old Windows
Linux is also getting some decent games

New Windows is trying to be a piece of trash

Linux's chances are better than ever at this moment

 

[cdr_74_premium]

Linux is trying to be like old Windows
Linux is also getting some decent games

New Windows is trying to be a piece of trash

Linux's chances are better than ever at this moment

Yes!!!! It has been like this since... 1999 I think. But hey, we can dream, right?

 

[PornoSatan]

Yes!!!! It has been like this since... 1999 I think. But hey, we can dream, right?

Yeah I'm sure you were having a blast gaming on your 1999 Linux desktop with its early GUI abomination. LOL

 

[heatlesssun]

He did see the problems personally and even admitted to them being problems but never actually came out and said anything about the issues until I linked reviews which uncovered the issues. For heatless, it's all gravy until someone finds out that something's broken, at which point he'll confess that it's true.

Nope. I think I said long before you did with you not having a single second logged on a the 500T a number of issues and pointed out that using a Bluetooth dongle resolved the issues with WiFi which was never mentioned in any review you ever read.

And this particular issue was resolved two weeks ago, at least for me an many other 500T owners which again is something that you never read in a review.

 

[c3141hf]

Thats not spyware. According to the FTC:

"Spyware: software that aids in gathering information about a person or organization without their knowledge and which may send such information to another entity without the consumer’s consent, or asserts control over a computer without the consumer’s knowledge."

As you are told about it during install that it is checking CD keys and thats you know, the information it sends...with your consent. Nor does it assert control over anything or read your emails. So there must be something more sinister going on here! What makes it spyware?

There is no consent. It is either send the information or you can't use the software you paid for. That is a Hobson's Choice.

I do not rely on the US government for defining spyware, especially given the fact that they create spyware themselves.

If Heatlesssun gave that answer his ass would be raked over coals. You just completely didn't answer the question then started talking about something else. I said list the reasons how Gimp/other software was better than Photoshop or how it was more suitable for professional usage. I left that broad so you could have some scope. But, your reply contains 0 reasons. Thus it safe to assume there is no reason to consider Gimp.

CinePaint's site was made by a 12 year old in 1998, and only apparently got used up to 2003 (let last film it was used on thats listed... nor is the list of great enough numbers that it's "heavily used"). It's whole apparent reason for existing "it does 8/16/32 bit" is kind of weird, as thats done by everything else, and pretty much everything else is nicer to use than Gimp and it's awful brushes.

CinePaint is still used. That list was taken from their old website, several years ago. CinePaint is very relevant because it is a GIMP fork. The quality of their website is irrelevant to the program at hand and is mere ignoratio elenchi.

The program takes up 421mb... Any swapdisks for huge images depends on how little ram you have and how deep you set your history (aka it's up to you how much disk it uses).

And GIMP takes up only 70mb.

The Master suite install (all 21 programs) took 20 minutes, so lets call that a whole minute.

Please upload a video of you installing Photoshop in only one minute.

Inefficient is hard to quantify but a 650mp image loads fine and works fine. Most other programs wont even open that, or save that (e.g. Painter). At 50 layers the save file is under a gb. It also works a pile than Gimp, and is much much more stable...
and takes 5 seconds to open.

Are you using GIMP on its native platform? GIMP does not officially support Windows and they do not have full time Windows developers.

During install you can deselect optional features.

It is the non-optional features that concern me.

The updater is only used for MS software like Windows itself and MS's programs like Live/MSE etc. But also it would make updates like updates on their console. It would take a while to get validated, so the only direct link would be what they have done. Unless you suggest going through another corperation is more efficient? You can also turn off auto update...

Then that is a failing of Microsoft. I, for one, like being able to update all my programs from a central location using one tool like I do in Arch.

 

[c3141hf]

Looks like Blizzard is getting on the GNU/Linux train :
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI2ODE

 

[DeathPrincess]

There is no consent. It is either send the information or you can't use the software you paid for. That is a Hobson's Choice.

I do not rely on the US government for defining spyware, especially given the fact that they create spyware themselves.

All they want is the serial number... If you paid for the software what's the problem with sending the serial, that they provided anyway?

Which definition of "Spyware" includes sending serial numbers and product registration?

CinePaint is still used. That list was taken from their old website, several years ago. CinePaint is very relevant because it is a GIMP fork. The quality of their website is irrelevant to the program at hand and is mere ignoratio elenchi.

You can only go from information availible. Their new "website" also lists nothing to suggest it's rampant usage.

Also I don't think you understand what "ignoratio elenchi" actually means, and how it should be used.

And GIMP takes up only 70mb.

So? You said it takes "masses of HDD space". 421mb isn't masses of HDD space, most games take 10-20x that amount. What did you mean exactly by "masses of HDD space?" (btw if you check your calender the year is 2013). Gimp is a 73mb installer... But anyway, if it took up 20gb I could see your point. But your answer IS ignoratio elenchi.

Please upload a video of you installing Photoshop in only one minute.

You want me to uninstall the software, redownload the install packages and reinstall then while filming it just to prove you wrong? How about you download it and try it in a VM. If you have more than 500mb HDD space that is.

Are you using GIMP on its native platform? GIMP does not officially support Windows and they do not have full time Windows developers.

So they decided not to support the largest userbase?

It is the non-optional features that concern me.

Such as?

Then that is a failing of Microsoft. I, for one, like being able to update all my programs from a central location using one tool like I do in Arch.

I prefer a more open platform for updating rather than a wallled garden where a central authority dictate how and when I can give out my product updates.

Anyway, you still haven't provided any reason why/how GIMP is better software than Photoshop, so it's safe to assume there isn't any, thus by admition, Gimp/Cinepaint are to you ligically "crap software".

 

[bboynitrous]

I'm really hoping for a lucky pot at the end of every rainbow. Linux and by extension Linux zealots would have to get out of their own way first before any kind of mass exodus to Steam on Linux.

Well think about it. If android is linux based, you can have games compatible for both linux and steam. Steam could be a common component on all system and we can all watch microsoft fade in the dark. Fuck them for alienating PC's with Windows 8.

 

[SkribbelKat]

So? You said it takes "masses of HDD space". 421mb isn't masses of HDD space, most games take 10-20x that amount. What did you mean exactly by "masses of HDD space?" (btw if you check your calender the year is 2013). Gimp is a 73mb installer... But anyway, if it took up 20gb I could see your point. But your answer IS ignoratio elenchi.

You want me to uninstall the software, redownload the install packages and reinstall then while filming it just to prove you wrong? How about you download it and try it in a VM. If you have more than 500mb HDD space that is.

Not to be a dork-head, but if you own a Windows 8 tablet and you only have 32 GB of storage, of which there's only 16 GB left after the OS and Office 2013, then 412 MB is a lot to worry about. Aside from that, I do think PhotoShop is easier to use thatn GIMP...by a LOT, but you pay some monies for it. For some people, totally worth it. For other people, maybe learning to use GIMP and dealing with some quirks is a better choice.

 

[heatlesssun]

Go read a review...or is that giving site hits or YouTube views to people you envision as competition?

I don't need to read a review since I use Clover Trail hardware

Under a full moon, while standing on your head, in a building turned upside down. Nice dancing on the criteria there. Can you get any more pointlessly particular? (Don't answer that, we already know.)

But people that have never even seen Clover Trail hardware keep talking about these kinds of scenarios.

I doubt pelo would believe in the claim that your demonstration will be unbiased. Plus, you probably don't own a modern Atom netbook.

Nether you of he use Windows 8 daily. Why do you attack constantly those who do?

Even if I'm paid buy Microsoft, or Staples or whomever I this this stuff constantly and you and pelo don't. Outside the comfy confines of this forum what you say about Windows 8 means not much compared to someone that can actually answer a question about Windows 8.

Dancing around addressing the specifics by changing the subject to a personal attack since you know things like the WiFi drivers or maybe the hardware itself is trash after having seen the problems personally.

If anything I've said here is a personal attack then flag it as a personal attack to the moderators.

 

[Ghettobox]

As a full time Linux user I don't think this is the "year" of Linux. It'll happen or it won't, but Valve and now Blizzard pushing will help I guess. Maybe I have softened as I have gotten older but there was a time I was a real Linux advocate, now I just could give a shit what people use. I know what works for me (as a part time developer Linux REALLY works for me) and how to hack my OS if need be to get what I need done. Getting Netflix running on my Ubuntu Box was 3 sudo apt-gets. I have Wine setup for the lone game I play these days (eve online) and have suitable replacements for all the other software I need. If Linux or Windows or OSX works for you just use it already. Linux will be fine either way.

 

[DeathPrincess]

Not to be a dork-head, but if you own a Windows 8 tablet and you only have 32 GB of storage, of which there's only 16 GB left after the OS and Office 2013, then 412 MB is a lot to worry about. Aside from that, I do think PhotoShop is easier to use thatn GIMP...by a LOT, but you pay some monies for it. For some people, totally worth it. For other people, maybe learning to use GIMP and dealing with some quirks is a better choice.

But the touch verion (i've not used it...maybe Mr. HLS has...) seems much lighter as tablets are all weakassed and can't do anything (and have no GPUs...), much like the Photoshop.com site, which is pretty tiny. Pluus if you take away the preset libraries and other additional things (brushes/textures/etc.) from Photoshops install you can get it down to less than 150mb.

I supose you get what you pay for... Like with OpenOffice.

 

[nilepez]

We don't care about boot time as much because we aren't constantly rebooting our computers (we don't have to reboot for minor software updates like Windows does). I maybe reboot my computer a few times a year, at most.

Irrelevant. The article says windows is treadmill where h/w upgrades don't result in increased performance, because the OS is slower. H/W upgrades are necessitated by apps, not the OS. If it was the OS, then you'd be set with a 2002 PC running XP on 512KB (or less) of ram.

Not having to reboot to patch is nice, but again, on any modern machine that's no longer an issue.