5090 Production Halted

Dan_D said:
Pre-built's are always cheaper due to the corners they cut. Do we really need to go there? Case is cheap shit, PSU is probably really cheap shit, RAM is going to be cheaper, slower and lower quality stuff. The motherboard is most certainly not of a premium variety. All of the money on that POS is spent on the GPU and CPU to make the specs look good on paper.
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herp derp, ok.. haha. I fully concede, you can't game today and need to pay $eleventy bajillion dollars because ultra-tier components are being scalped.
 
w1retap said:
herp derp, ok.. haha. I fully concede, you can't game today and need to pay $eleventy bajillion dollars because ultra-tier components are being scalped.
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I literally never said anything of the sort. I game sometimes on my laptop which has a 5070 Ti in it and cost around $2,300 all said and done. For a mobile experience, its great. I'm simply arguing against the point you made suggesting we are merely paying mid-1990's pricing for hardware when adjusted for inflation. That's simply NOT true. Even if it was (as it was about two years ago), that argument doesn't really hold water because hardware has done nothing but drop in price over the last three decades. Somethings like video cards have gone up, but CPU's, RAM and storage are generally much cheaper.
 
A capex mania that started in a low interest rate environment brought this about, but that is rapidly changing. At some point the mania will subside and natural economic forces will stabilize the situation. If it doesn't, or even worse if it crashes into an outright depression, we'll have more to worry about than the cost of PC components! Let us not lose our heads over it in the meantime.
 
Dan_D said:
Let's debunk this one more time. $3,000 would get you a pretty top end rig in 1997. Fast forward to today, and that's about $6,200. For reference, I built the rig in my signature just shy of two years ago for about $6,500 give or take. However, at current prices that same machine would cost around $13,000.

My fucking ass we are in mid-1990's pricing.

All 5090's are listed for $6,800+. That's for a fucking refurbished 5090.
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=rtx+5090

Just for reference, the machine in my signature via PC Part Picker. Of course, you can easily shave that price down in a lot of areas with cheaper motherboards, case, less RAM, cheaper RAM, etc. But the point still stands. The same hardware available two years ago is more expensive than it was originally with few exceptions. Your looking at over $10,000 for a 5090 based PC with decent specs. It's not just the 5090's. 4TB SSD's are fucking retardedly expensive as is RAM. Even being generous and conceding that a top end rig in the 1990's could be as much as $5,000, you are looking at $10,500 roughly in 2026 when adjusted for inflation. Going with a slightly more balls out system configuration still gets me close to $14,000. The biggest differences are going larger and faster on storage, choosing the 9950X3D2, going for a nicer 5090, and then of course, more premium PSU and 64GB of RAM.

Disclaimer: I chose only products in stock at the time of this writing.

That's pretty similar conceptually to the differences between a $3,000 PC and a $5,000 PC in the mid-1990's too. Mostly storage, RAM, and CPU. VGA cards, etc. would have had more memory and been more expensive than the cheap ones back then too, but the difference was that isn't where the money went in the overall build.

To recap, adjusted for inflation a top end PC should cost around $6,500 to $10,500 using the $3,000 to $5,000 metric that's been the gold standard for what high end PC's have cost for decades. But I'll come back to that bit. Yet, those systems built for those prices are literally $12,000 to $14,000 for the same hardware that was available two fucking years ago for the most part. There are two other facets of this people aren't getting. That $3,000 to $5,000 number has stayed static despite inflation. Meaning, the price stayed the same without being adjusted for inflation. That's because for much of the last three decades, hardware has gotten cheaper. Not more expensive. It wasn't until around 2020 that this changed and the prices started going back up. The second thing is that product cycles for a given piece of hardware were typically shorter than they generally are now. That's not universally true, but generally holds true. For awhile we got a new CPU generation every other year with minor frequency and stepping improvements annually. We got new GPU's every six months (minor) and yearly for massive architectural leaps forward.

Even when we didn't have major hardware improvements, the hardware we bought got cheaper two years later. It didn't get more expensive. If you spent $600 on a GPU a decade ago, it wasn't more expensive than that two years later. The idea that we are paying 1990's pricing for hardware when adjusted for inflation is total bullshit. That metric is a fucking cop out anyway. Hardware (until recently) has generally gotten cheaper for most of the last 30 years with that $3,000-$5,000 price tag staying static and NOT increasing with inflation.

One More Thing:

Let's also add to the fact that housing and vehicle prices have been going up at a rate similar (if not worse), than what we saw between 1977 and 1980. The price increases for PC hardware hit harder because people have less discretionary spending money than they did a few years ago. Rapid and record setting inflation rates will do that. In essence, we are getting squeezed in every aspect of our finances so these price increases hit harder than they otherwise would.

To put that into perspective, the average truck cost around $4,100 in 1977. Adjusted for inflation that should be $22,000 or so in 2026. Now, go check your local stealership pricing on a basic half ton pickup. A base F-150 XL work truck trim, regular cab, 2WD truck starts at $37,000 new. For that you don't get a V8, you don't get 4WD. The only thing you really get you didn't get in 1977 is power windows and a bunch of other crap that artificially inflates the cost of the truck. Meanwhile, the average vehicle price in America is now over $50,000. This way outpaces inflation.

Want more? The mean home price in 1977 was $48,000. Today, it's $450,000. Adjusted for inflation, it should be $265,000.
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I remember paying $24k for a Mac iifx with LaserWriter back in 1991. I don’t even want to run inflation numbers on that. It was a business expense for my Mom’s graphic design business, so it made sense. I remember thinking I was a god with a 40mhz 68k CPU back then along with a decent VGA card.

So yes, people don’t remember how expensive home hardware used to be.
 
Mchart said:
I remember paying $24k for a Mac iifx with LaserWriter back in 1991. I don’t even want to run inflation numbers on that. It was a business expense for my Mom’s graphic design business, so it made sense.

So yes, people don’t remember how expensive home hardware used to be.
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I remember the Color Laserjet 5 costing over $7,500 on its own. It came one to a pallet. I was one of the few technicians certified to repair those back in the day. A color Laserjet Pro today is $300. To be fair, I think that kind of thing is where people get the idea that we are paying 1990's pricing for hardware, not realizing that over the past three decades, most things have gotten so much cheaper. RAM, storage and to some extent CPU's have gotten cheaper. In 2017 or 2018 a top end consumer market motherboard was around $450. That had a lot of fluff. Today your looking at well over $1,000 for a board like that.
 
Epyon said:
Both of my Falcon Northwest systems say no.
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Fair enough. I wasn't thinking about boutique builders when I said that. Some of the boutique builders do build excellent quality systems. However, the price difference between something built by Falcon Northwest and whatever that bullshit was on Amazon is pretty significant. (And rightly so.)
 
Dan_D said:
The massive price hikes also go way beyond inflation. It's a pretty shitty time to be a hardware enthusiast right now. Not only has technological progress slowed, but availability and pricing is out of control compared to what we are used to. Not to mention, overclocking is pretty much dead as well. I've been enjoying this hobby since about 1995 and in all that time, this has been the absolute worst I've seen things.
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The prices on everything these days (except CPUs and those are apparently going up to) are just completely retarded and sadly we are just going to have to ride out the AI bubble for any hope of it fixing itself. So long as Sam Altman is buying memory that doesn't exist yet with money he doesn't have yet, prices will be insane.

The reduction in overclocking is actually something that doesn't bother me as from my perspective what is happening is chips are just getting better at pushing their own limits with dynamic frequency and voltage controls. I think in the past chips had to leave too much on the table to be able to operate at the fixed limits they had.

I don't hate that the CPU/GPU makers are trying to push their dies to be faster without manual input from users.

tunatime said:
I don't know you but form that repose right there I kinda don't think you belong at [H] with that attitude. We as a whole enjoy messing with computers as much as gaming as we wouldn't be here if we where normal people that didn't geek out on computer parts.
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Look I'm not loving the high prices, but the slowing down in improvements was something that was going to happen AI or no. Even if prices were normal, the pace of improvements has slowed, and will continue to slow. That's just life, you can't have exponential growth forever. I can enjoy a hobby, even if there isn't something new all the time.

For example I like firearms but you want to talk something with a glacial pace of development. There is basically never anything revolutionary, and rarely even anything evolutionary. New guns are just different takes on old technology. Once John Browning invented the recoil operated pistol, well that was basically it for semi-auto pistols. Basically all of them still use a Browning design for their action to this day. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy firearms, it just means I don't have to buy a new model every year to get new technology.

I can continue to enjoy gaming, even when hardware improvements slow.
 
I think Nvidia will release the 6080 as the 6090 given that they have done something similar in the past when they had the opportunity to. The flagship single GPU Kepler card which was GTX 680 was pretty much a mid range Kepler die branded as the flagship 80 class (the 90 class was a dual GPU card back then) and we didn't get big Kepler until the GTX Titan/780. Everyone knew what Nvidia was doing but nobody really cared too much then since the GTX 680 was still a decent bit faster than the GTX 580 despite not being the biggest die available. Of course if the 6080 cannot actually beat the 5090 just like how the 5080 fails to beat the 4090 then Nvidia won't be able to do that, the 6080 has to be a decent bit faster than the 5090 for Nvidia to try and sell it off as a 6090.
 
Yeah, If i am only getting a 20% boost I will really have to think about just keeping what i have. I think we are going to see a good jump. They can go all the way down to 2nm if they want. Now i do think we would be looking at a $2700 starting price maybe
 
MistaSparkul said:
Of course if the 6080 cannot actually beat the 5090 just like how the 5080 fails to beat the 4090
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A good overclocking RTX 5080 gets pretty close the to RTX 4090 in performance. I think a RTX 5080 24GB or a RTX 5080 Super 24GB definitely would be able to. An overclocked RTX 5070 Ti 16GB outperforms an overclocked RTX 4080 Super 16GB, but at stock the RTX 4080 Super edges it out, depending on the RTX 5070 Ti model.
 
MistaSparkul said:
Of course if the 6080 cannot actually beat the 5090 just like how the 5080 fails to beat the 4090 then Nvidia won't be able to do that, the 6080 has to be a decent bit faster than the 5090 for Nvidia to try and sell it off as a 6090.
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Don't worry it will beat the 5090 by hundreds of FPS, all Nvidia has to do is alter the drivers or use new super AI frame hallucination creation to do it.
 
Dan_D said:
Somethings like video cards have gone up, but CPU's, RAM and storage are generally much cheaper.
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video card got much bigger versus those too, a Voodoo 2 was a much smaller chip than the big pentium and using much cheaper wafer.

A pentium 4 2.8ghz was a 146mm² monochip on 130nm, a 6800 ultra was around 287mm² on 130nm process, only the ~double.

Today a 9800x3d cpu has a 70.6mm TSMC 4N compute die with a 122m io die on a cheaper TSMC 6N process, while a 5090 is a 750mm monolithic monster (10 times the cpu compute tile die size) that come with 168mm of very fancy GDDR7 silicon, a small very sophisticated multi-layer motherboard that handle ridiculous bandwith&power with very sophistaced cooling while the cpu come fully bare in comparison, lot of the GPU price is hidden in the CPU into the motherboard-memory you buy externally to run them.

Per mm of compute or flops, GPU are still much much cheaper and less sophisticated than CPU. Even a "small" 9060rx would be a giant CPU, it does not use chiplet to cut price, has 2.5 time the amount of transistors + memory.
 
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LurkerLito said:
Don't worry it will beat the 5090 by hundreds of FPS, all Nvidia has to do is alter the drivers or use new super AI frame hallucination creation to do it.
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They have already tipped their hand. They will include some BS that makes DLSS5 run just a bit faster. With no DLSS5 the new gen will probably be minimally faster vs its = previous gen. Nvidia will only give samples to reviewers willing to review DLSS5 only. Seems to be the same almost every release now.
 
ChadD said:
new gen will probably be minimally faster vs its = previous gen.
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This will be a TSMC family node upgrade launch too, they could shrink die and memory bus even more, but those have been on the small size since Lovelace already.

I think they could go for a significant MSRP jump at launch instead of reducing the die size for the family->family and that will give a full TSMC family generation improvement amount this time around.

LurkerLito said:
Don't worry it will beat the 5090 by hundreds of FPS, all Nvidia has to do is alter the drivers or use new super AI frame hallucination creation to do it.
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Dynamic 8x (if not 12x) FrameGeneration this time around for the graphics will be there, that for sure.

Sycraft said:
Even if prices were normal, the pace of improvements has slowed, and will continue to slow. That's just life, you can't have exponential growth forever.
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10% improvement per decades instead of every 3 months is still exponential growth, if there is any growth in the space it will continue to be exponential, linear growth in nature virtually does not exist, we have exponential or log, will not surprise me if for at least a couple of century compute continue to be exponential, because improvement will compound over the previous and over dimensions (software-hardware-architectural, that part of why AI inference got so much cheaper so fast and those system better so fast, they have many dimension that multiply their improvement over each others ).
 
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6090 will be a card that remotes into a.i. datacenters for dlss processing and require a subscription, aka game streaming, and without it you get mainstream 6070 performance. So it's just a 6070 with forced crapware.

5090's my last stop if they don't release real gpu's anymore, I only play old games anyway, I just like hardware as a hobby but can do without.
 
ChadD said:
They have already tipped their hand. They will include some BS that makes DLSS5 run just a bit faster. With no DLSS5 the new gen will probably be minimally faster vs its = previous gen. Nvidia will only give samples to reviewers willing to review DLSS5 only. Seems to be the same almost every release now.
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Ironically Nvidia just announced today that DLSS5 will run twice as fast on the new model and this is without RTX 60 improvements or even switching to NVFP4.
 
Stryker7314 said:
6090 will be a card that remotes into a.i. datacenters for dlss processing and require a subscription, aka game streaming, and without it you get mainstream 6070 performance. So it's just a 6070 with forced crapware.

5090's my last stop if they don't release real gpu's anymore, I only play old games anyway, I just like hardware as a hobby but can do without.
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We aren't getting a 6090. If we do it will be probably be the 6080 die so not really a 6090 at that point unless they use the big die which is probably all going to AI this go around.
 
Stryker7314 said:
6090 will be a card that remotes into a.i. datacenters for dlss processing and require a subscription, aka game streaming, and without it you get mainstream 6070 performance. So it's just a 6070 with forced crapware.
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I imagine it is a joke, but even as such the latency to send image and others data to a server to get an dlss5 result back would be way too high, much simpler and better to have all the rendering done remotly.

tunatime said:
We aren't getting a 6090. If we do it will be probably be the 6080 die so not really a 6090 at that point unless they use the big die which is probably all going to AI this go around.
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Seem it would be worth it to still make it, use a part of the failed to be perfect die like they do now on them and just not make that many, memory and packaging tend to be so much more of a bottleneck than TSMC capacity for the die itself anyway, I doubt they lack any die in any way for their AI supply. If you are to spent memory on consumer product, may has well do it on the best margin one.

All the fully enabled cores die will go toward AI seem a fair prediction, like they did with the 4090-5090 situation.
 
my microcenter had one in stock... only $12k!
 

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Drive up prices? They've been driven up for months ffs. Could get a half decent used car for what these fucking things are going for now.
 
LOCO LAPTOP said:
Good lord, I checked 2 days ago and nothing was in stock at the Miami store.

Edit: The card is a ASUS NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5090 ROG Astral Edition 20 OC Quad-Fan Graphics Card

Price is not listed online.
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that was miami, couple days ago so who knows maybe someone bought it?
 
Well if Nvidia was in it for the money all along they really unleased the beast on PC Gamers which was never that profitable.
Compared to this Big Corp Ai garbage. Chinese Data Ceters need the same chips as the US data Centers. It's a no win win for anyone.
 
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