Begun the GPU pricing wars have? AMD to lower Navi prices

defaultluser said:
Paper launch: when you announce a product in MAY, with no availability until the middle of July.

RTX Super = hard launch. You can buy next week. Navi is soft launch. We don't actually know when you will be able to buy Navi, only when the reviews go live. But even if you can bu Monday, it's still a soft launch.

Stop pretending like AMD is faultless here. Their Navi coverage has been consistently second fiddle to Zen. The prices were suspect, the "low latency" gaming thing all but untouched during the announcement. They have made no effort to introduce insider experience to show the true benefits of h the low latency gaming, to v pave over the complete lack of RTX.

What exactly did I miss there? This doesn't even have the beefcake DP performance of vii, so what's the selling point?
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Paper launch = reviewed but not physically available

Announced does not equal a paper launch.

Super equal a hard launch? Please link to purchase, please.

Jesus christ it's like people are taking crazy pills.
 
defaultluser said:
Paper launch: when you announce a product in MAY, with no availability until the middle of July.

RTX Super = hard launch. You can buy next week. Navi is soft launch. We don't actually know when you will be able to buy Navi, only when the reviews go live. But even if you can bu Monday, it's still a soft launch.

Stop pretending like AMD is faultless here. Their Navi coverage has been consistently second fiddle to Zen. The prices were suspect, the "low latency" gaming thing all but untouched during the announcement. They have made no effort to introduce insider experience to show the true benefits of h the low latency gaming, to v pave over the complete lack of RTX.

What exactly did I miss there? This doesn't even have the beefcake DP performance of vii, so what's the selling point?
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Hard launch is availability and reviews the same day. Whether you agree or not it’s cool with me. But there is no such thing has reviews and hard launch when the product is not available 7 days from reviews. They both have one set launch date. Only difference is AMD allowing for reviews on launch day. By your definition neither are hard launch. It’s like your contradicting yourself. Lol!
 
sabrewolf732 said:
View attachment 172245

Paper launch = reviewed but not physically available

Announced does not equal a paper launch.

Super equal a hard launch? Please link to purchase, please.

Jesus christ it's like people are taking crazy pills.
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Lol I am saying the same thing. I have never thought no product available for purchase was hard launch. That is some crazy talk.
 
Chaos Machine said:
Since you are an obvious fanboy why don't you take this for the positive impact as it relates to you instead of getting worried and trying to run interference for a company that just loves to give it to you in the pooper. Whether or not you would ever consider an AMD card, at least they are forcing NVIDIA to to do some discounting, and this whole Super thing reaks more of Nvidia sweating if you ask me. You would never see those cards if nvidia was still only competing with itself.
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I think saying either of them are panicking is a bit too strong of a term. AMD and Nvidia are reacting to what the other is doing. Super cards were not produced in a panic. A panicked release would be rushed, it would feel like it was put out too early, drivers wouldn't be ready, etc. This was a carefully planned release. Nvidia probably sat on these chips, waiting for AMD to make their move. AMD announced pricing and a release date, then Nvidia reacted. AMD wouldn't have been blind-sided by this release. Nvidia teased it before Computex. So, AMD knew something was coming. They priced their cards at a point where they could afford to go lower if they needed to, then they waited for Nvidia to make their move. Nvidia announced Super, then AMD reacted. Nothing resembling panic from either company.
 
Derangel said:
I think saying either of them are panicking is a bit too strong of a term. AMD and Nvidia are reacting to what the other is doing. Super cards were not produced in a panic. A panicked release would be rushed, it would feel like it was put out too early, drivers wouldn't be ready, etc. This was a carefully planned release. Nvidia probably sat on these chips, waiting for AMD to make their move. AMD announced pricing and a release date, then Nvidia reacted. AMD wouldn't have been blind-sided by this release. Nvidia teased it before Computex. So, AMD knew something was coming. They priced their cards at a point where they could afford to go lower if they needed to, then they waited for Nvidia to make their move. Nvidia announced Super, then AMD reacted. Nothing resembling panic from either company.
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There is simply not enough Drama in this post. How can we determine a winner if we cant figure out who outplayed the other?

This is important for Forum cred.
 
As much as I want AMD to succeed, you can't take away the performance of the 2070 super. $500 for 1080ti performance is really damn good if you ask me. Sure IMO i think the name is stupid, but it is a damn good card for the price/performance.

BUT lets not beat around the bush, AMD had to lower the price regardless. They knew they couldnt keep it at $450-500 etc.....I look at it this way AMD is competitive now, and they knew they had to lower prices. Nothing wrong with consumers saving money and have a choice right?
 
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Chimpee said:
but if true, this is just AMD reacting to RTX Super reviews. Also, it is speculation on your part to see this price drop was planned all along, neither of us except AMD know what their real plan is.
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Hmmmm, seems to be a trend there somewhere.
 
Brackle said:
As much as I want AMD to succeed, you can't take away the performance of the 2070 super. $500 for 1080ti performance is really damn good if you ask me. Sure IMO i think the name is stupid, but it is a damn good card for the price/performance.

BUT lets not beat around the bush, AMD had to lower the price regardless. They knew they couldnt keep it at $450-500 etc.....I look at it this way AMD is stay competitive now, and they knew they had to lower prices. Nothing wrong with consumers saving money and have a choice right?
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I agree they have no choice. Now what I do wonder if they should aggressively as in 100+ dollar undercut Nvidia? I think they should... Then again doing so might not net them any good will , market re capture or anything.... I think its a crapshoot.
 
Uvaman2 said:
I agree they have no choice. Now what I do wonder if they should aggressively as in 100+ dollar undercut Nvidia? I think they should... Then again doing so might not net them any good will , market re capture or anything.... I think its a crapshoot.
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Yea I agree. But from a lot of the rumors going around is that Navi has really good yields, so undercutting Nvidia like they did won't hurt them. Either way we will find out tomorrow where the 5700 XT performance lands. Cause we can speculate all day long and realize that is isn't even worth $400? We will find out tomorrow
 
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Brackle said:
Cause we can speculate all day long and realize that is isn't even worth $400? We will find out tomorrow
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I don't think there will be any surprises tomorrow. We already have AMD's marketing slides and some review leaks. It's very unlikely things will change much, except that we get verification, and more games filled in.
 
Snowdog said:
I don't think there will be any surprises tomorrow. We already have AMD's marketing slides and some review leaks. It's very unlikely things will change much, except that we get verification, and more games filled in.
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But, those are AMD Slides. I believe them as much as Intel and Nvidia marketing slides....But you are right tomorrow everything will be revealed to the world.
 
Why on earth does any pc builder take either side and call the other one a fanboy?? Both companies only have one loyalty, that is to dollars. NVIDIA IS greedy and tried/is trying to gouge every last one of us regardless of the effects it has on the community. AMD, is NOT some altruistic entity that is here to fight for pc enthusiasts, nor are they geniuses that have super secret plans to beat Goliath. AMD made a launch, NVIDIA scrambled and responded, now AMD is responding to that response, it is that simple. This is good for us at the moment, but it should never have come to us praying for a price war. These companies should be applauded for the technology they produce but never worshiped or admired for supporting pc enthusiasts, because they dont.
 
Smoked Brisket said:
Why on earth does any pc builder take either side and call the other one a fanboy?? Both companies only have one loyalty, that is to dollars. NVIDIA IS greedy and tried/is trying to gouge every last one of us regardless of the effects it has on the community. AMD, is NOT some altruistic entity that is here to fight for pc enthusiasts, nor are they geniuses that have super secret plans to beat Goliath. AMD made a launch, NVIDIA scrambled and responded, now AMD is responding to that response, it is that simple. This is good for us at the moment, but it should never have come to us praying for a price war. These companies should be applauded for the technology they produce but never worshiped or admired for supporting pc enthusiasts, because they dont.
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And yet, AMD CEO Lisa knows who butters their bread.
 
trentchau said:
Right now it's Sony, who isn't really known for how friendly they are to their clients.
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They are much easier to work with than Mr Bridge Burner Nvidia. Despised by Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Sony and others that once worked with them and got burnt. ;p
 
5150Joker said:
You can't really say that about the Super cards because you don't create new SKUs overnight. These were already binned cards ready for a refresh 6 months after Turings release so NVIDIA is right on schedule. AMD however clearly didn't see this coming and had to adjust their prices to reflect the 5700XTs lower performance.

AMD would have gladly bent over its loyalists to charge them high prices for a card that is essentially a midrange refresh with no raytracing. The 5700XT is a 1080 Ti equivalent (or Titan X Pascal) but 3 years late, I don't really view it as exciting one bit. If anything, it shouldn't cost more than $350.

That said, if the 2080 Super is like 10-15% slower than 2080 Ti, I'll probably cave and pick one up as I've had an itch to get RT for Cyberpunk 2077 and other games and finally retire my Titan X Pascal.
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if you really think AMD didn't know nvidia super cards were coming you are kidding yourself. They both have that much info on one another. Its silly to think otherwise. Shit we knew about super well over a month before release publicly through numerous sites, AMD wasn't asleep during that time.
 
sabrewolf732 said:
Enterprise.
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Not unless we can expect the professional drivers to have a similar improvement ion performance-per-clock? The raw compute is SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER than Vega 64, and it lacks the FP64 you get with the Radeon VII.

This thing's acceptance is going to be dependent on AMD's drivers, not a pure compute overload.
 
defaultluser said:
Not unless we can expect the professional drivers to have a similar improvement ion performance-per-clock? The raw compute is SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER than Vega 64, and it lacks the FP64 you get with the Radeon VII.

This thing's acceptance is going to be dependent on AMD's drivers, not a pure compute overload.
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navi is intended for gaming, radeon vii absolutely destroys it in regards to compute.
 
So, anyone have any fucking clue when the embargo time is Sunday? Since AMD had the genius to release on a holiday Sunday, there won't be many sites covering this.

Fucking great, AMD.
 
defaultluser said:
So, anyone have any fucking clue when the embargo time is Sunday? Since AMD had the genius to release on a holiday Sunday, there won't be many sites covering this.

Fucking great, AMD.
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Do you seriously think US based sites are going to miss out on launch day coverage just because its a holiday?

Also, I'd guess whatever time they've had embargos go up in the past.
 
Derangel said:
Do you seriously think US based sites are going to miss out on launch day coverage just because its a holiday?

Also, I'd guess whatever time they've had embargos go up in the past.
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I believe it's usually 9a central but I could be off
 
Araxie said:
AMD pressed the insta panic button and showed the desperation too early even before launch..
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What ??? Nvidia just relaunched their entire mainstream stack with price adjustment for all. How the hell do you see that as as AMD desperation? AMD has done a simple price adjustment to a entirely restructured (what it should have been at launch) Nvidia core line-up.
OH and +1 to OP for thread title :)
 
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Derangel said:
Do you seriously think US based sites are going to miss out on launch day coverage just because its a holiday?

Also, I'd guess whatever time they've had embargos go up in the past.
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You're right, Tech Power Up has cover of Ryzen plus Navi. They're usually shut on Sundays.

Okay, I was wrong :D

Navi has caught up with Pascal in perf/watt, but is nowhere near Turing 1660 series (with no RT or tensor units like Navi,, so it's a fair comparison).

it was fairly decent performance dollar, before the launch of the 2060 Super spoiled things, that is. The 2060 Speer is within 5% of the 5700 XT, and thanks to the 256-bit bus, that doesn't change at higher resolutions.

relative-performance_3840-2160.png


Also, Techpowerup has memory scaling with the 3900x. Very important lunch day analysis.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-zen-2-memory-performance-scaling-benchmark/

It loos like you will need atleast DDR4 3200 on launch day, with 3600 being preferable.

And yes, I was right about most sits treating Navi as "second-banana." There are only a few major sites even covering Navi today (Toms and Tech Power Up), while all of the ones I checked coved Zen 2. In addition, they've all ignored checking ANY results the low latency gaming tech, which tells me it's not ready yet.

AMD fucked-up launch the two on the same day, and should have waited a few weeks for Navi (to fix the buggy drives TechpowerUp said they encountered). The only thing I can say for sure is that Navi XT makes the Radeon VII redundant.
 
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defaultluser said:
You're right, Tech Power Up has cover of Ryzen plus Navi. They're usually shut on Sundays.

Okay, I was wrong :D

Navi has caught up with Pascal in perf/watt, but is nowhere near Turing 1660 series (with no RT or tensor units like Navi,, so it's a fair comparison).

it was fairly decent performance dollar, before the launch of the 2060 Super spoiled things, that is. The 2060 Speer is within 5% of the 5700 XT, and thanks to the 256-bit bus, that doesn't change at higher resolutions.

View attachment 172470

Also, Techpowerup has memory scaling with the 3900x. Very important lunch day analysis.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-zen-2-memory-performance-scaling-benchmark/

It loos like you will need atleast DDR4 3200 on launch day, with 3600 being preferable.

And yes, I was right about most sits treating Navi as "second-banana." There are only a few major sites even covering Navi today (Toms and Tech Power Up), while all of the ones I checked coved Zen 2. In addition, they've all ignored checking ANY results the low latency gaming tech, which tells me it's not ready yet.

AMD fucked-up launch the two on the same day, and should have waited a few weeks for Navi (to fix the buggy drives TechpowerUp said they encountered). The only thing I can say for sure is that Navi XT makes the Radeon VII redundant.
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So 5700XT is DOA looking at perf/dollar while 2060 super cost is slightly less of a value (5%) than 5700 but beats it pretty much across the board AND has RT. I will check other reviews but if they're in line with TPU, Navi is DOA. No wonder AMD buried it under Zen 2 noise.
 
5150Joker said:
So 5700XT is DOA looking at perf/dollar while 2060 super cost is slightly less of a value (5%) than 5700 but beats it pretty much across the board AND has RT. I will check other reviews but if they're in line with TPU, Navi is DOA. No wonder AMD buried it under Zen 2 noise.
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Unless things drastically change on the performance front, RT is basically a no-go on anything below 2080 performance. So, maybe the 2070 Super can do some decent RT stuff but its not even worth talking about on the 2060 Super.
 
5150Joker said:
So 5700XT is DOA looking at perf/dollar while 2060 super cost is slightly less of a value (5%) than 5700 but beats it pretty much across the board AND has RT. I will check other reviews but if they're in line with TPU, Navi is DOA. No wonder AMD buried it under Zen 2 noise.
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No its not DOA at that price. But aftermarket cards are the way to go. I am sure they will be available from 420ish for decent ones compared to blower. Also Looks like RTG needs to fucking get their shit together with launch drivers.
 
I have been kicking this dog since its launch but the only dead cards from current models available are:2060,2060s,RX590 at normal price and Radeon VII. Still would like another $25 off both 5700 series cards but I can recommend them for people wanting to game at 1440.
 
It would seem from reviews so far that the 5700XT needed quite a bit of power to match the regular 2070. Even at 7nm.

Runs pretty warm too apparently. Wonder how much is left in the tank for board partners to improve performance?
 
Auer said:
It would seem from reviews so far that the 5700XT needed quite a bit of power to match the regular 2070. Even at 7nm.

Runs pretty warm too apparently. Wonder how much is left in the tank for board partners to improve performance?
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I'm waiting for the real reviews - the ones that compare the cards at near-or-max OC. That OC headroom is a significant factor, and I'm still remembering the Fury days where AMD had to max the cards out from the factory so benches wouldn't be as embarrassing.

If it turns out that AMD left 5700XT little OC headroom at stock, and are comparing it against stock Nvidia RTX 2070, well obviously an Nvidia GPU is going to have way more in the tank even with the stock HSF (to the tune of 25-35% more).
 
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Derangel said:
Unless things drastically change on the performance front, RT is basically a no-go on anything below 2080 performance. So, maybe the 2070 Super can do some decent RT stuff but its not even worth talking about on the 2060 Super.
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I disagree, the RT performance for both super cards is good enough: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...e-rtx-2060-super-rtx-2070-super-review?page=2

Keep in mind RT IMO is really meant for SP games and it does fine here. As long as you can maintain 30-60 fps in an SP environment with RT it is fully viable. We've yet to see how Wolfenstein and Control perform but I suspect it should be decent or else nVidia wouldn't bundle them. Then there's the Cyberpunk 2077 factor coming in April that can't be ignored--that title alone should give anyone pause when looking at Navi.

Edit: Dont forget Call of Duty: MW and Watchdog Legions are coming which should add to the RT portfolio.

I posted this in another thread but I want to mention it here too: Most reviews are substandard. They rush through testing irrelevant games that nobody plays while ignoring the most popular PC games because it requires work (eg fortnite, Apex legends, Siege, LOL etc). Hardware Canucks was a rare exception and it seems once again we have to wait on AMDs driver team to get their shit together:

19CF5734-1431-42A1-AE31-4624CFE82986.png 205F94C6-2F24-4A69-960B-692F43D72D40.png 8F84CDC1-25ED-4BA1-AA60-1800D2B1F614.png

Final point: Acoustics is terrible with Navi AMD cards vs Super FE. So you get bundled games, RT and better cooler with the Super cards. This is why I consider Navi DOA.
 
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5150Joker said:
I disagree, the RT performance for both super cards is good enough: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...e-rtx-2060-super-rtx-2070-super-review?page=2

Keep in mind RT IMO is really meant for SP games and it does fine here. As long as you can maintain 30-60 fps in an SP environment with RT it is fully viable. We've yet to see how Wolfenstein and Control perform but I suspect it should be decent or else nVidia wouldn't bundle them. Then there's the Cyberpunk 2077 factor coming in April that can't be ignored--that title alone should give anyone pause when looking at Navi.

Edit: Dont forget Call of Duty: MW and Watchdog Legions are coming which should add to the RT portfolio.

I posted this in another thread but I want to mention it here too: Most reviews are substandard. They rush through testing irrelevant games that nobody plays while ignoring the most popular PC games because it requires work (eg fortnite, Apex legends, Siege, LOL etc). Hardware Canucks was a rare exception and it seems once again we have to wait on AMDs driver team to get their shit together:

View attachment 172502 View attachment 172503 View attachment 172504

Final point: Acoustics is terrible with Navi AMD cards vs Super FE. So you get bundled games, RT and better cooler with the Super cards. This is why I consider Navi DOA.
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Outside of Battlefield, none of that looks great for the 2060 Super. Even then, I'm not sure how well it would go in the actual game itself. SP might be fine, there is a surprising lack of RT surfaces in what I've played of the single-player so far but MP will likely be a no-go. Actual real-world gameplay of Tomb Raider will likely push the 2060 Super under the 60 mark. As a slower paced game it might not be that big of a deal, but does make it not a great option.

We'll see about Wolf and Control, but I wouldn't pin hopes on Cyberpunk being easy to max out. CDPR's prior two engines have all learned more into effects that need future hardware to fully max out instead of being easy to max out on launch. Wouldn't be surprised to see Cyberpunk bring the 2080 ti its knees at higher resolutions. MW and WDL could be pretty interesting to keep an eye on.
 
Derangel said:
Outside of Battlefield, none of that looks great for the 2060 Super. Even then, I'm not sure how well it would go in the actual game itself. SP might be fine, there is a surprising lack of RT surfaces in what I've played of the single-player so far but MP will likely be a no-go. Actual real-world gameplay of Tomb Raider will likely push the 2060 Super under the 60 mark. As a slower paced game it might not be that big of a deal, but does make it not a great option.

We'll see about Wolf and Control, but I wouldn't pin hopes on Cyberpunk being easy to max out. CDPR's prior two engines have all learned more into effects that need future hardware to fully max out instead of being easy to max out on launch. Wouldn't be surprised to see Cyberpunk bring the 2080 ti its knees at higher resolutions. MW and WDL could be pretty interesting to keep an eye on.
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I can see 2060 Super doing RT at 30+ fps in Cyberpunk at 1080p at max or close to max settings. Since it is a midrange card, that would be acceptable IMO. Where NVIDIA really messed up was not telling people outright, "hey this is first gen RT, its best used in SP games and not MP" because that is the hard truth. RT will almost never be good enough for MP no matter what generation we're on because MP games are competitive and therefore people turn down all the eye candy to get more fps. Have you tried Metro Exodus with that 2080 Ti and RT? My buddy just got a new 2080 Ti and Metro and was floored by the global illumination RT. I initially had little interest in RT myself but with Wolfenstein, CoD: MW and other games on the horizon, I might grab a 2080 Super as a hold over card until 3080 Ti shows up.
 
defaultluser said:
Also, Techpowerup has memory scaling with the 3900x. Very important lunch day analysis.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-zen-2-memory-performance-scaling-benchmark/
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It's interesting that among all the games TP tested, Sekiro and Far Cry 5 had the greatest improvements (or scaling) with improved memory speed/timings. Something of a 11% delta between the slowest and fastest (a price/performance metric would provide more depth here). I would have guessed a game like Civ VI would be far more sensitive to memory. But overall, the results are mixed. It really depends on the app or game because some things just aren't that sensitive regardless of how much money you throw at it.
 
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