Samsung new PVA screens

Please, what panels have improved and how do you know that?
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Panels constantly improve - yoiu yourself have said that many times. Even the same technology from panel to panel varies in how well it was implemented. I had a look at some S-IPS TV's the other day and the contrast ratio really does make for a washed out image. Even in the pics above I see that of the stone building.

Anyway to answer your question - panels even within the same models improve, i.e. A01, A02, etc. So there is no need to ask how we know :)
 
Can you follow the discussion?
It was said: "some of the newest panels have improved" *VA colorshift.
So I ask: what panels?
I would like to look at them.
 
albovin said:
Can you follow the discussion?
It was said: "some of the newest panels have improved" *VA colorshift.
So I ask: what panels?
I would like to look at them.
Click to expand...

Uh Well some of us have actually looked at them and not just gone by charts and graphs:eek:
New concept you should try
 
albovin said:
Can you follow the discussion?
It was said: "some of the newest panels have improved" *VA colorshift.
So I ask: what panels?
I would like to look at them.
Click to expand...

For the best example, I would take a look at the new Samsung 40" LED HDTV, as far as VA shift is concerned, I was very impressed.

On a Dell 2709w, I though it had been reduced significantly over the 24" screens I have seen, still not enough for me to buy one though.
 
Thank you.
TVs are out of scope.
I will try to have a look at 2709 when possible.
 
vick1000 said:
It just has to be a image with dark detail that is horizantally uniform, such as a landscape at night with a treeline, the outer portions of the treeline will have more detail, the center will be darker (from normal viewing position head on). Some people just are not bothered by it, just as some prefer the glow of IPS because it does not change the gamma of the actual image.
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I am not now, its not bad enough for me to get annoyed by it on everyday use and on movies I am sitting back from the screen anyway so dont notice it at all then.

End of the day both my IPS and PVA screen are good enough for me and the IPS I actually prefer as its more responsive with clearer colours and sharper text.
 
how about staying on the subject? I don't want to make a new thread to talk about the F2380 and thus become a spammer but you are basically forcing me...

Anyway, it seems the F2380 has arrived in Germany. www.idealo.de which is a price comparison search engine shows it in many stores. None got stock yet but there is one that says 1-3 days availability.

I hope the rest of Europe will follow so I can buy it soon in Greece. It must be the first non-TV 16:9 1080p LCD without a TN panel!!!

The only lack I see is a Displayport....it also has no HDMI but a simple adapter will cover us from one of the DVI ports (thankfully it got 2!).
 
chrcoluk said:
I am not now, its not bad enough for me to get annoyed by it on everyday use and on movies I am sitting back from the screen anyway so dont notice it at all then.

End of the day both my IPS and PVA screen are good enough for me and the IPS I actually prefer as its more responsive with clearer colours and sharper text.
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Lets face it 95% percent of people are happy with TN. Walk into a big computer/electronics shop with 50 monitors on display: ALL TN!

Of the 5% that don't like TN 80% will be happy with either VA or IPS. It is probably one 1% or less that must have an IPS (and maybe the same for VA only). The bigger the group you belong to the luckier you are, you have more choices for less money.

Sadly. Only IPS truly satisfies me and they are costly and rare. Can we all stop arguing about what people prefer. It is a preference. It isn't the same for everyone.

Hurry up OLED! Pure blacks, perfect viewing angles, ultra fast response. Now this is a display that will be worth heaping praise on... when it gets here...
 
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Snowdog said:
Hurry up OLED! Pure blacks, perfect viewing angles, ultra fast response. Now this is a display that will be worth heaping praise on... when it gets here...
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For the whole 10" you can afford... Even if any big OLED screen shows up, it's going to be years until the price gets to anything manageable... ;-)

Regarding PVA/TN/IPS -> recently I've seen a Samsung 24" display and I thought it looked good, it was nice quality, etc; just my first impression; I wondered if it was something better than TN. So I looked it up and lo and behold, it was a TN. The bottom line is that I don't care that much ;-) F2380 gets me a PVA for a price of TN. It's win, win!
 
FWIW I actually prefer TN to VA. :D

Yeah. I know OLED is years away. I am happy enough with my NEC until it dies (3 years of warranty left).

So many are working on OLEDs and more are showing up in new devices like the new Zune HD, it is only a question of time.

Once they get this kind of injet process working, prices should start dropping like mad:
http://www.oled-display.net/seiko-epson-large-size-hd-oled-tv-with-new-inkjet-technology
 
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I use a Samsung 215tw S-PVA display for spreadsheets and writing, and an NEC LCD 2490WUXi for photos and some other stuff that requires a 24 inch screen. They both have one of my photos as a screensaver, so that's the first thing I see. Every time the Samsung fires up, I say to myself, what a great image. Punchy, lots of contrast, great colors. Then I take a second look and say, this is not quite real. I love it still.

I invested some time in experimenting with the black-crush problem. It's quite visible in landscape photos that include lots of foliage in shadow. Head-on, you get black crush. Move to the side 10 degrees, you see the details emerging from the shadows. All this would be a matter of pure preference except that it led me to dispose of an Olympus camera thinking that it was too contrasty and also misled me to think that I couldn't get an acceptable exposure compensation on a Nikon D40. When I got the NEC display, I realized that the D40 was all right after all and I should just go with it. Too bad about the Olympus, but my sister bought it from me and she loves it so all is not lost.

SD45
 
SD45 said:
I invested some time in experimenting with the black-crush problem. It's quite visible in landscape photos that include lots of foliage in shadow. Head-on, you get black crush. Move to the side 10 degrees, you see the details emerging from the shadows.
SD45
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Newer s-pvas do not have that issue. I've seen that model samsung before, and yes it does have that issue.
 
Omerta said:
Newer s-pvas do not have that issue. I've seen that model samsung before, and yes it does have that issue.
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There is a difference between you not noticing it and it not being there. The best of current VA screens seems to be the Dell 2709. It has less of this issue, but it still has it. Whether it bothers you is an individual reaction (or even if you notice it).

An interesting point is that the Samsung 215tw was another PVA screen that stood out as not having much shift for a PVA screen, they actually got worse after this panel for a while. I haven't seen one in person, but the viewing angle shot that I have seen from this screen are about as good as any PVA screen. If you notice the effect with this screen, you would probably notice it with any PVA screen.
 
My third display, which I use for the Internet, is an HP LP2465 (a more recent S-PVA). The black crush is maybe 30% less compared to the Samsung 215tw, but still there.

I wouldn't say that it bothers me on either display, but it's noticeable, and when it leads to bad decisions--camera settings, or photo editing, for example--then, yes, I'd say it's a problem.

SD45
 
I was never bothered that much by the black crush. I was more bothered by the changes, details popping in and out as I move is what drove me to get rid of my PVA screens. As always YMMV.
 
SD45 said:
My third display, which I use for the Internet, is an HP LP2465 (a more recent S-PVA). The black crush is maybe 30% less compared to the Samsung 215tw, but still there.

I wouldn't say that it bothers me on either display, but it's noticeable, and when it leads to bad decisions--camera settings, or photo editing, for example--then, yes, I'd say it's a problem.

SD45
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Ughh, the LTM210M2 (215tw) panel was one of the worst offenders. My FPD2185w was one of the reasons I started checking for gamma shift on every damn display I saw, TVs included.
 
Snowdog said:
Lets face it 95% percent of people are happy with TN. Walk into a big computer/electronics shop with 50 monitors on display: ALL TN!

Of the 5% that don't like TN 80% will be happy with either VA or IPS. It is probably one 1% or less that must have an IPS (and maybe the same for VA only). The bigger the group you belong to the luckier you are, you have more choices for less money.

Sadly. Only IPS truly satisfies me and they are costly and rare. Can we all stop arguing about what people prefer. It is a preference. It isn't the same for everyone.

Hurry up OLED! Pure blacks, perfect viewing angles, ultra fast response. Now this is a display that will be worth heaping praise on... when it gets here...
Click to expand...

Sad to say it is true, like most things on the market they not neccessarily all happy with it but wont complain as they think thats the only choice so assumed to be happy.
 
Snowdog said:
I was never bothered that much by the black crush. I was more bothered by the changes, details popping in and out as I move is what drove me to get rid of my PVA screens. As always YMMV.
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if you bothered about details changing as you move then why do you prefer TN's to VA? TN's are aweful when moving around even shifting my self one inch to the side the colours change and if I move slightly up or down the contrast ratio changes a lot.
 
chrcoluk said:
if you bothered about details changing as you move then why do you prefer TN's to VA? TN's are aweful when moving around even shifting my self one inch to the side the colours change and if I move slightly up or down the contrast ratio changes a lot.
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You are getting into small particulars of what annoys me, but if you insist:

I tend to sit in my chair and move side to side a lot more than I move up/down. I never notice my TN screen shifting when I move side to side like my PVA screens did.

TN is much worse up/down but that doesn't bother me both because I don't move up down that much and because part of the irritation is the shift between each eye and that difference happens on the horizontal.

If I flip my TN into portrait mode it become much worse than any VA screen because then the issues line up where they annoy me most (in the horizontal plane).

All of this only applies to monitors which I sit reasonably close to, if you move a couple of inches you have a big angular change and it brings out these irritating shifts.

I have a quite shifty MVA panel Samsung 37a530 LCD TV. I have none of these kind of "drive me nuts" irritating effects, because I sit far enough away that moving doesn't cause any shifting. I still don't like it going all pale when I get up and walk around, but there are zero issues when I just sit down and watch a movie. I would much rather have VA TV than a TN TV.

It is all highly situational and highly individual so again YMMV.
 
vick1000 said:
Ughh, the LTM210M2 (215tw) panel was one of the worst offenders. My FPD2185w was one of the reasons I started checking for gamma shift on every damn display I saw, TVs included.
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Ugh, so true. I'm still using my FPD2185w holding out for a reasonable priced sRGB display with two digital inputs that is 8bit, without black crush, any noticeable shifting and capable of displaying gradients without banding. The black crush is by far the worst aspect of this panel and every other PVA I've tried looking at for a replacement. I'm getting closer and closer to caving and buying the 2490wuxi even though its way out of the price range I'd like to stay in. Definitely would annihilate any dual monitor setup's budget. :(
 
Folks, what is this black crush you're talking about (or am I better not knowing so I won't realize it exists, so it won't bother me :p)?
 
One thing I don't understand: if you adjust contrast/brightness you should get all the details when facing head on. When viewing at an angle, more details (too much probably) should be visible, right? Why Is the picture so damn dark when viewing it head on?
 
This is PVA specific flaw.
Reading.

You can adjust gamma to somewhat improve dark details, but this adjustment will affect the whole image, not only that piece that needs correction = you'll spoil the rest of the image.

PVA users live with horizontal colorshift. Same way as TN users live with vertical colorshift.
 
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albovin said:
This is PVA specific flaw.
Reading.

You can adjust gamma to somewhat improve dark details, but this adjustment will affect the whole image, not only that piece that needs correction = you'll spoil the rest of the image.

PVA users live with horizontal colorshift. Same way as TN users live with vertical colorshift.
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Here is the part you should read again:

General Image Quality

A special note: there will be quite a bit of photo and video images of the Dell 2408 in this review.
All those images are not intended to represent the monitor picture quality in regard to brightness, contrast, color accuracy, sharpness or color tone.
Trying to get a perfect photo of something on a monitor screen IMO is useless, as it never comes close enough to what is actually seen unless the photographer is a good professional. For a monitor review it’s just wasting time.
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daveswantek said:
Here is the part you should read again:
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You read the whole remark:
"Pictures provided here are to show disproportions - things that are clearly seen in comparison and/or something obvious..."

Now you go back to your ass-wise posters leprosarium.
 
albovin said:
You read the whole remark:
"Pictures provided here are to show disproportions - things that are clearly seen in comparison and/or something obvious..."

Now you go back to your ass-wise posters leprosarium.
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It's "wise-ass" and a leprosarium is a hospital for leprosy patients.

Can't you get anything right

Dave

PS it is all in fun you know!!!
 
Want to really confuse Albovin?

Ask him what the top 10 weaknesses of IPS technology are, how they impact the user and what choices a user makes in accepting them.

Yeah, wise ass.
 
I see a lock in this threads future. How about we dispense with the on going debate, and start a seperate thread for it, so this one can get back on topic. (I know I contributed a little, and I apologize)
 
Black crush is when colors that are near-black (ie. related to black level) are shown as black.

It is not technology specific IMHO.
 
The perfect LCD does not exist. Maybe OLED will give us new wonderful monitors...but until then maybe LG new IPS or Samsung cPVA is good enough for a fair price...
 
Nice find kmetek.

Really exhaustive color and quality comparisons, I just can't make out 50% of the language. The only thing I couldn't find was a response time comparison which is a pretty big factor for me since I do game a decent amount.

Besides that, this monitor is looking more and more like a real winner. Check out the (lack of) blacklight bleed compared to the TN: http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0904/29/1634849_samsung_f2380_cpva_28.jpg http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0904/29/1634849_samsung_f2380_cpva_25.jpg . Very impressive black levels too. There was some signs of "black crush" but that seems to be pretty typical of *VA screens and I don't think I would mind that since this panel would bring so much more to the table than my existing TN.

Since this thing likely won't see the US shores for awhile it will probably have some competition from those new cheaper LG IPS panels whenever they finally arrive. I'm definitely waiting to see who comes out better in that battle before I hand over my cash.
 
Well to be honest wan,t sure what was black crush till now when i saw what is
now im sure its the most anoying thing if you are movie maniac like me.
The Samsung T240 i return had that anoying thing all over it was impossible
to watch movies on it no matter how you position the screen.

My biggest hope goes to avoid that at all cost with my Nec 2490-SV incoming ;)
 
The T240 was just a shit quality TN panel; no black crush as we know it. Black crush is actually a shift in gamma value as viewing angle changes. It's a VA characteristic. Poor color tracking or low gamma on TN panels can cause a similar loss of black level detail.
 
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