Quebec judge authorizes class-action lawsuit over 'addictive' Fortnite game

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lRaphl

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https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-...awsuit-over-addictive-fortnite-game-1.6186022

"A Quebec judge has authorized a class-action lawsuit against the maker of the popular online video game, Fortnite, after parents of three children who played it argued it was too "addictive." When the original application was filed in 2019 against Epic Games Inc. and its Canadian subsidiary, the lawyers representing the plaintiffs said they believed this case was a world first."

They should get some spare change out of that...if they win.
 
I'm only surprised that Quebec isn't instead sueing them claiming that loot boxes are an illegal lottery because the developer isn't paying legally required govt kickbacks. (The reason why you'll often see "anywhere in the US or Canada except Quebec" on giveaways and the like is that the latter has regulations that require anyone giving stuff away in the province to pay the govt a "because we can" fee equal to a substantial percentage of the value of everything that's given away.)
 
On the one hand this is ridiculous, but on the other we known for over a decade now that video game developers have been hiring psychologists to intentionally make their games as addictive as possible and then targeting kids with them.

It started with stupid basic flash-style games, but then moved on to bigger and more pervasive titles like free-to-play multiplayer titles with loot boxes and microtransactions.

Most people can probably resist, but there are ainority who will be completely unable to, and it can ruin lives.

Back when I was in college I saw so many of the kids on my Counter-Strike servers get so addicted to the game they failed and dropped out, and that was before this practice started. It's probably way way worse today. Kids outside of parental supervision for the first time in their lives, completely addicted to games, with no one to force them to take their worm seriously, etc.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
On the one hand this is ridiculous, but on the other we known for over a decade now that video game manufacturers have been hiring psychologists to intentionally make their games as addictive as possible and then targeting kids with them.

It started with stupid basic flash-style games, but then moved on to bigger and more pervasive titles like free-to-play multiplayer titles with loot boxes and microtransactions.

Most people can probably resist, but there are ainority who will be completely unable to, and it can ruin lives.

Back when I was in college I saw so many of the kids on my Counter-Strike servers get so addicted to the game they failed and dropped out, and that was before this practice started. It's probably way way worse today. Kids outside of parental supervision for the first time in their lives, completely addicted to games, with no one to force them to take their worm seriously, etc.
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Respectfully, No. :)

We could debate this for hours so let's not, but if you had friends...IN COLLEGE....who failed out because they could NOT stop playing Counter Strike, that makes them (and their parents) *fucking useless* and the world is better off without them in the post-collegiate work force. As a great man once said "Well, the world needs ditch-diggers, too...."
 
HeadRusch said:
Respectfully, No. :)

We could debate this for hours so let's not, but if you had friends...IN COLLEGE....who failed out because they could NOT stop playing Counter Strike, that makes them (and their parents) *fucking useless* and the world is better off without them in the post-collegiate work force. As a great man once said "Well, the world needs ditch-diggers, too...."
Click to expand...

I tend to agree.

I'm just illustrating that this is what can happen even without intentional design for addiction.

With it, things get worse.

If we as a society are starting to hold casinos responsible for gaming addiction, maybe, just maybe, there is a case to go after those who try intentionally try to use psychology in order to make their games as addictive as possible, especially when there are financial consequences and if kids are involved.
 
DanNeely said:
I'm only surprised that Quebec isn't instead sueing them claiming that loot boxes are an illegal lottery because the developer isn't paying legally required govt kickbacks. (The reason why you'll often see "anywhere in the US or Canada except Quebec" on giveaways and the like is that the latter has regulations that require anyone giving stuff away in the province to pay the govt a "because we can" fee equal to a substantial percentage of the value of everything that's given away.)
Click to expand...

There are no loot boxes in Fortnite. You can never purchase an item without knowing what it is.
 
HeadRusch said:
Respectfully, No. :)

We could debate this for hours so let's not, but if you had friends...IN COLLEGE....who failed out because they could NOT stop playing Counter Strike, that makes them (and their parents) *fucking useless* and the world is better off without them in the post-collegiate work force. As a great man once said "Well, the world needs ditch-diggers, too...."
Click to expand...

I'm kinda torn on this because people who have a high chance of being useless don't need help and nudging towards being useless but on the other hand you're kinda right.

I'm moving towards I hope Epic loses the lawsuit, because I'd like an MMO without a cash shop in the future and I don't see this as a thing as long as the goal is to get people addicted and milk money from them out of a cash shop.
 
lRaphl said:
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-...awsuit-over-addictive-fortnite-game-1.6186022

"A Quebec judge has authorized a class-action lawsuit against the maker of the popular online video game, Fortnite, after parents of three children who played it argued it was too "addictive." When the original application was filed in 2019 against Epic Games Inc. and its Canadian subsidiary, the lawyers representing the plaintiffs said they believed this case was a world first."

They should get some spare change out of that...if they win.
Click to expand...
I won't say it's MORE addictive than others, but when I started playing Fortnite I stopped playing everything else.

I never played a lot of games before, but I don't even load any games anymore. I don't even open the steam launcher.

That said, I also don't feel required to play daily or feel any pressures on days I don't play at all.

Just thoughts.
 
For the record this isn't a new case though, it was filed back in October of 2019 and the Canadian courts have been looking over the case for 3 years now ensuring there is enough merit here to warrant moving forward to an actual trial.
But it is worth noting that since 2017 or so the largest employer of behavioral scientists has been the gaming industry.
Here's an article from 2018 on the potential growth of that industry.
https://venturebeat.com/games/4-way...vior-analysis-are-changing-the-game-industry/
 
Lakados said:
Yeah but that's got wicked oversight and regulation.
And really they don't need to hire psychologists and behavioral therapists to make their products more addicting, they sort of sell themselves.
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Any industry that is allowed to put ATMs next to gambling machines isn't regulated enough.

If the requirement to be sueable is using behavioral therapists to make their products more addicting, let's through in TV, and movies, and the lottery. When does personal responsibility and good parenting kick in ?
 
rinaldo00 said:
Any industry that is allowed to put ATMs next to gambling machines isn't regulated enough.

If the requirement to be sueable is using behavioral therapists to make their products more addicting, let's through in TV, and movies. When does personal responsibility and good parenting kick in, after the lawyers get paid ?
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It's not that, alone though, they have a pretty good case backed up by established laws that prevent the marketing of tobacco, alcohol, and gambling services to minors. They argue that hiring professionals whose job it is to make something as addictive as possible, then actively advertising that product to minors violates those laws and if they are going to do that they should be regulated in the same way.
Should the parents have done more research and paid more attention, yes, but at the same time many parents don't have that luxury it's, not an excuse but shit happens if they aren't gamers, and aren't familiar with the technology, and are simply under the impression they are playing a bright fun game with their friends then it is something that is easy to overlook.
 
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Lakados said:
It's not that, alone though, they have a pretty good case backed up by established laws that prevent the marketing of tobacco, alcohol, and gambling services to minors. They argue that hiring professionals whose job it is to make something as addictive as possible, then actively advertising that product to minors violates those laws and if they are going to do that they should be regulated in the same way.
Should the parents have done more research and paid more attention, yes, but at the same time many parents don't have that luxury it's, not an excuse but shit happens if they aren't gamers, and aren't familiar with the technology, and are simply under the impression they are playing a bright fun game with their friends then it is something that is easy to overlook.
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If their credit card bills skyrocket, or their kids are on the computer so long that they are not doing homework, eating, or sleeping, it is easy to notice.
 
rinaldo00 said:
If their credit card bills skyrocket, or their kids are on the computer so long that they are not doing homework, eating, or sleeping, it is easy to notice.
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The credit card skyrocketing is usually the first sign, but once it's done it's done. Epic does not and will not offer refunds, so you have to go through MC or Visa to get the charges reversed, which then will result in the account being closed which is for the best for everybody but then you quite literally then go through the process of dealing with a kid dealing with withdrawal symptoms, it's not a fun process. I work in schools, I can assure you I see it, some parents care others don't, but we treat fortnight as "digital crack" on our side and block the ever-living shit out of it, but if you got your kid a cellphone and it has a data plan its officially not my problem. But kids trying to sneak off and play fortnight is a worse problem in most buildings than kids sneaking off for a smoke/vape/toke.

Note:
I work in a district that has literal crack-addicted babies, and the tantrums they have and the kids who have had their fortnight taken away are comparable.
 
HeadRusch said:
Respectfully, No. :)

We could debate this for hours so let's not, but if you had friends...IN COLLEGE....who failed out because they could NOT stop playing Counter Strike, that makes them (and their parents) *fucking useless* and the world is better off without them in the post-collegiate work force. As a great man once said "Well, the world needs ditch-diggers, too...."
Click to expand...
As a former ditch-digger, those types of people would not be hired for that job, either.
Even jobs with physical labor, which should be cherished more than it is in most cultures, has standards of work ethic and discipline.

You are talking about the unemployed-who-live-off-everyone-else types of gen Y and Z - they do not work, nor is the word 'work' in their vocabulary.
At best they will turn out to be failed vtubers, and then their parents will vote Left because it is everyone else's fault but their own.

Also, that "great man" you quoted sounds exactly like one of those entitled assholes you speak of.


Zarathustra[H] said:
Back when I was in college I saw so many of the kids on my Counter-Strike servers get so addicted to the game they failed and dropped out, and that was before this practice started. It's probably way way worse today. Kids outside of parental supervision for the first time in their lives, completely addicted to games, with no one to force them to take their worm seriously, etc.
Click to expand...
If they are in college, they are not kids, they are adults, and they should be held responsible for their actions.
The problem isn't Counter Strike or Fortnite, it's the complete lack of accountability.
 
HeadRusch said:
Respectfully, No. :)

We could debate this for hours so let's not, but if you had friends...IN COLLEGE....who failed out because they could NOT stop playing Counter Strike, that makes them (and their parents) *fucking useless* and the world is better off without them in the post-collegiate work force. As a great man once said "Well, the world needs ditch-diggers, too...."
Click to expand...

I played too much Counter-Strike and flunked out of college too. After 10 years of working hopeless jobs (ditch-digging included) my *fucking useless* parents wasted good money putting me through school a second time. Now I'm out here with a wife, kid, 30 year fixed-rate mortgage, and $180,000 job ruining the post-collegiate work force for everybody else. And to make it even worse: I still play computer games every day! Aren't I just the scum of the earth? :p
 
Yea lets sue Epic instead of being good attentive parents. It is easy to lock Fortnite. Just shut of the internet to the kids devices after a certain hour or time spent playing.
 
vegeta535 said:
Yea lets sue Epic instead of being good attentive parents. It is easy to lock Fortnite. Just shut of the internet to the kids devices after a certain hour or time spent playing.
Click to expand...
This is how you weaponize smart kids into being more adept at technology than you are.
 
Next to get sued for addictive products: Hollywood, nickelodeon, book publishers, inventor of the yoyo..
 
how did they win the case against tobacoo co. ? is it because those co. put additive chemical in the cigarette?

if so, it doesn't apply in this law suit. If Epic loses, we can all sue , and all game developers and Steam will go belly up.
 
i feel like they've tried lawsuits similar to this in the past....didn't go so well.

at the end of the day, it comes down to the parents. i have two young boys. one turns 6 soon the other turns 2 soon. obviously the younger isn't getting much screen time. older gets to play the odd few PC games with dad maybe once or twice a week.

turn off the digital babysitter.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I tend to agree.

I'm just illustrating that this is what can happen even without intentional design for addiction.

With it, things get worse.

If we as a society are starting to hold casinos responsible for gaming addiction, maybe, just maybe, there is a case to go after those who try intentionally try to use psychology in order to make their games as addictive as possible, especially when there are financial consequences and if kids are involved.
Click to expand...

I am with you on the concept of Marketing in general. Wanna solve half the worlds problems? Time to take Applebee's, Pizza Hut and every other chain restaurant to task for selling shit-tier drugs to the public...seriously I wonder if all of those companies are funded by the secret Diabetes Drug cabal. " Yes YEEESSS....SELL A HONEY MAPLE GLAZED SALAD! THEY'LL LOVE IT, AND WE CAN CALL IT OUR HEALTHY CHOICE MENU ITEMS! BUAHAHAHAHAHA" etc, etc.....<insert maniacal wringing of hands here>

I think Marketing in general is simply the applied emotional and psychological manipulation of people, but then again so is the delicate art of swaying someone over to your mindset.....so where do we draw the line?

Back in the 80's the best cartoons were Transformers and GI Joe (and Robotech but that was a totally different animal). They were literally 1/2 hour commercials for the upcoming toys, which I gleefully would want to buy because they were absolutely awesome. A bunch of parents groups complained at by the late 80's that had all been replaced by horrible shows like Saved By The Bell, live action soap operas for kids.........man the 80's ended with a crash. Now, I get the intention....but meanwhile the same horrible Sugar-Coated Honey Bomb cereals were marketed every 7 minutes, chased by the new hot toy in the latest Happy Meal.....we live in a commercialized society, this is part of the price we pay.
I think there is always an argument to be stated that Fortnight is one of the biggest games in the world who market cosmetic items to a certain age range that costs real-world money, even if the game itself is free to play.......and then we talk about how do we limit peoples obsessions with such games because, and I think we agree on this for sure, some people are just a lot more obsessed/compelled than others are. Some people gamble and walk away, some people drink and walk away....others "will not"...while others seem to have a genuine affliction and truly "Can Not".
Either way, I believe in that end-case there...its a shitty deal for those people (in our society)...but I don't honestly believe that when it comes to a video game, we essentially blame the game....for kids, the first line of defense always has to be the Parents.

I'm a Parent, and I approve this message.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
On the one hand this is ridiculous, but on the other we known for over a decade now that video game developers have been hiring psychologists to intentionally make their games as addictive as possible and then targeting kids with them.

It started with stupid basic flash-style games, but then moved on to bigger and more pervasive titles like free-to-play multiplayer titles with loot boxes and microtransactions.

Most people can probably resist, but there are ainority who will be completely unable to, and it can ruin lives.

Back when I was in college I saw so many of the kids on my Counter-Strike servers get so addicted to the game they failed and dropped out, and that was before this practice started. It's probably way way worse today. Kids outside of parental supervision for the first time in their lives, completely addicted to games, with no one to force them to take their worm seriously, etc.
Click to expand...

Quite true, that there will always be a good number of college kids who don't know how to be responsible in the face of all of that newfound freedom. There's nothing wrong with a game before class or a game after class. It's when it becomes a game during class and especially a game instead of class where they take a hard fall.

Still, it's really not much different from my time as a college student in the late 80's / early 90's, where many college kids could simply dial the phone to Domino's Pizza during the "time you call after 4 PM is the time you pay for a 1 topping large pizza" era.
Many of them put on their freshman 15 pounds, their sophomore 16 pounds, and became the junior jumbos as a result of not being responsible for their own actions. Sadly to say, a fair number of them have already keeled over from heart attacks or other weight-related health issues.

It was even worse with alcohol, but that's a discussion for another thread.

In the end, it's still a matter of personal responsibility, and for parents to get their kids ready for college, being prepared to handle such freedom. If they can't handle being responsible adults in the face of a hot video game, then surely, they will most likely fall prey to something else similarly tantalizing.
 
THRESHIN said:
i feel like they've tried lawsuits similar to this in the past....didn't go so well.

at the end of the day, it comes down to the parents. i have two young boys. one turns 6 soon the other turns 2 soon. obviously the younger isn't getting much screen time. older gets to play the odd few PC games with dad maybe once or twice a week.

turn off the digital babysitter.
Click to expand...
My wife has a tablet setup for music and listening to Thomas the Train stories for kiddo, but installed an "educational" game for him to play as she cooked dinner. 15m went by and it was time to get ready for dinner so we had him shut it off. Nuclear. Meltdown. Full on screaming, talk back, and crying when we took it away. Got a spanking and went to bed without dinner. We've never seen him act like that before. Almost like it clicked a switch off in his brain and changed who he was. Last time that ever happened again.

He gets older, we'll probably do some gaming with Dad, but on his own time no way.
 
Smells like parents failing at parenting to me.
Back in my day, if I failed to keep my room clean and left the toys on the floor, my father would come with a 55 gallon trash can and throw eeeevvvverything out.
Dropped and left dog food on the garage floor, mmm, mighty good, great nutrition for a growing body.
Not getting household chores done? No Intellivision, or TI99-4a for you.
 
The Mad Atheist said:
Smells like parents failing at parenting to me.
Back in my day, if I failed to keep my room clean and left the toys on the floor, my father would come with a 55 gallon trash can and throw eeeevvvverything out.
Dropped and left dog food on the garage floor, mmm, mighty good, great nutrition for a growing body.
Not getting household chores done? No Intellivision, or TI99-4a for you.
Click to expand...
You had enough toys to need a 55gallon trash can? f*** me i was poor
 
Westwood said:
My wife has a tablet setup for music and listening to Thomas the Train stories for kiddo, but installed an "educational" game for him to play as she cooked dinner. 15m went by and it was time to get ready for dinner so we had him shut it off. Nuclear. Meltdown. Full on screaming, talk back, and crying when we took it away. Got a spanking and went to bed without dinner. We've never seen him act like that before. Almost like it clicked a switch off in his brain and changed who he was. Last time that ever happened again.

He gets older, we'll probably do some gaming with Dad, but on his own time no way.
Click to expand...
As I said previously, we have literal crack babies in some buildings where I work and their withdrawal meltdowns are tamer than the "we took away your fortnight" kids, it's insane.
 
Active noise canceling and wifi jamming gear are in your future.
 
Did someone say... FORTNITE? /trollface



I don't play it because the main audience is literally less than half my age, so yeah, I'm good. But the rhyme at the beginning is at least funny...
 
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