Steam Play Evolves as Valve Adds Tools for Windows to Linux Compatibility

So quick question...how is this going to work in this situation:

1) Developer releases win/only game
2) Works with proton but not officially supported by the developer as they don't support Linux
3) Developer releases updates/patches/new content for next year or two
4) At some point game breaks & no longer starts/has issues with Proton/Linux
5) Do I get a refund or am I just left with a non-working game I already paid for?
 
So quick question...how is this going to work in this situation:

1) Developer releases win/only game
2) Works with proton but not officially supported by the developer as they don't support Linux
3) Developer releases updates/patches/new content for next year or two
4) At some point game breaks & no longer starts/has issues with Proton/Linux
5) Do I get a refund or am I just left with a non-working game I already paid for?
Depends on the game, but I'd bet on no refund. If they cared, they'd fix the game or port it properly. If it's broken and they won't fix it, they wouldn't fix a broken native port either...
 
Depends on the game, but I'd bet on no refund. If they cared, they'd fix the game or port it properly. If it's broken and they won't fix it, they wouldn't fix a broken native port either...

If it's a WIN game & it's broken on WIN, you can at least contact the developer & point it out or file a ticket, especially if it's in it's first year or two of life. Is there a "support contact" for the proton translation layer? Is it handled by Proton, the studio, or valve?
 
I would be all over permanent linux if I could port just a few of my most played games over with decent performance.
 
If it's a WIN game & it's broken on WIN, you can at least contact the developer & point it out or file a ticket, especially if it's in it's first year or two of life. Is there a "support contact" for the proton translation layer? Is it handled by Proton, the studio, or valve?
The contact is the game developer. If they can't fix it, they either contact valve or tell you to. If they refuse to fix it, then they don't care about Linux and you shouldn't expect the game to work with any future updates either.
 
The contact is the game developer. If they can't fix it, they either contact valve or tell you to. If they refuse to fix it, then they don't care about Linux and you shouldn't expect the game to work with any future updates either.
I was under the impression that the developers wouldn't support this, and it was a valve thing. Is playing their (windows developed) game under proton something the developers support officially?
 
I was under the impression that the developers wouldn't support this, and it was a valve thing. Is this something the developers support officially?
If a game isn't working, you contact the game developers first regardless of what you play it on. If they say "works for me, contact valve" then you go to valve. The game devs know best how the game "should" work and can best fix it if it's not an external problem.
Edit: to answer your question, it depends on the game...
 
Do you k;now if it can do GPU offload like NVENC or other?

I'm really looking forward to this. There are so few reasons left to have Windows, and they are all games. As it turns out, it really was too much to ask developers to adapt to cross platform development (sarcasm), and having one central authority do it for them was the only solution.


I used Flowblade on some large projects over the years and enjoy it. The unique compositing order and editing modes creates a bit of a learning curve for the first few hours, but it becomes a joy to edit so quickly.
 
I would be all over permanent linux if I could port just a few of my most played games over with decent performance.
Could you list your top 10. There are a few places where people aregpi through list what works, poorly works or doesn't work.

So far for this beta and only like 10games with photon tweaks, alot are working well

The vulkan wrapper is what is vastly closing the performance gap as it is a parallel api
 
Could you list your top 10. There are a few places where people aregpi through list what works, poorly works or doesn't work.

So far for this beta and only like 10games with photon tweaks, alot are working well

The vulkan wrapper is what is vastly closing the performance gap as it is a parallel api


I don't even need 10, if I could get World of Tanks/Warships, Warframe, PUBG, and maybe the new Fallout game when it comes out I would be happy for a while. Oh and Mechwarrior 5. Gotta have my mechs.
 
I don't even need 10, if I could get World of Tanks/Warships, Warframe, PUBG, and maybe the new Fallout game when it comes out I would be happy for a while. Oh and Mechwarrior 5. Gotta have my mechs.


Keep an eye on this.


So pubg crashes but with such feedback things can be tweaked.
Howecer... DRM and anticheat are going to be an almost blocker due to how they jack into windows
 
So quick question...how is this going to work in this situation:

1) Developer releases win/only game
2) Works with proton but not officially supported by the developer as they don't support Linux
3) Developer releases updates/patches/new content for next year or two
4) At some point game breaks & no longer starts/has issues with Proton/Linux
5) Do I get a refund or am I just left with a non-working game I already paid for?
I could see games on Steam Play sell for cheaper with the lack of official developer support if they separate the games via Steam. With the lack of official support the devs won't have to put work into it, but they would still make a lot of money selling their games cheaper to Linux users as it's just another market that hasn't been tapped yet without any risks for developers. Valve could even extent the time you can try out the game and if it doesn't work you can ask for a refund(like on Windows)
 
Wonder if valve would consider dropping their cut in order to incentives native ports. Most game engines are fairly well equipped to port games to Linux and it seems like steamplay could help test consumer interest. Might be the lowering of the bar a company needs when factoring initial tight profit margins on a port.
 
The next move that Valve should do is make HL3 a linux exclusive then you would see how many are willing to try linux :)

sure make it available to windows say ... 3months later, they wouldn't lose out on sales just delay them
 
Wonder if valve would consider dropping their cut in order to incentives native ports. Most game engines are fairly well equipped to port games to Linux and it seems like steamplay could help test consumer interest. Might be the lowering of the bar a company needs when factoring initial tight profit margins on a port.
I could see Valve cut them to perhaps half, and then they would still make a shit load of money + have a growing market that really hasn't been tapped into yet.
 
If a game isn't working, you contact the game developers first regardless of what you play it on. If they say "works for me, contact valve" then you go to valve. The game devs know best how the game "should" work and can best fix it if it's not an external problem.
Edit: to answer your question, it depends on the game...
Back when I used wine & I had issues, I never reported to devs as I just figured they'd say "Install windows" (That is what motherboard manufacturers say at least...)
 
If there were ENOUGH developers creating native Linux games then I doubt almost six years into this we'd see Proton. For some time I've been pointing out the widening gap between Linux and Windows in game content. Obviously Proton is to help with that by making it dead simple to run as many Windows games as possible under Linux. I think at this point Valve didn't have much choice but to pursue this. But given that lack of content is the issue at hand here, yes, making it easier to run Windows games on Linux probably gives even some current Linux developers pause if they can save money on development costs and just deliver one binary for Windows and Linux. In fact I'm guessing some devs have already contacted Valve about this and asking them to include macOS under Proton as well, in theory it could work similarly, Valve even mentions it in their Proton blog post. All I am saying is that this would an initial reaction. Maybe Proton actually does significantly grow the Linux gamer base and make native Linux development more viable over time.
Okay, let's say for sake of argument, you're right, this will lead to reduced Linux development. You said it yourself, if there were ENOUGH developers creating Linux games, we wouldn't see Proton. Therefore, there's not enough Linux developers. So with your logic, this is the conclusion:

No proton = not enough Linux development
With proton = not enough Linux development, but Linux users can now play way more games.

So even in the event it shrinks Linux development (which I think the evidence shows only to the contrary), it's still a net positive.
 
While I think there is a danger of this hurting the LInux platform if devs get lazy and decide to not make a native Linux version and just let Proton take care of it I think it has the potential to be a positive thing if it increases the number of Linux gamers and those gamers start to buy more native games. It already has one positive already: more people are talking about Linux today than yesterday.
 
Okay, let's say for sake of argument, you're right, this will lead to reduced Linux development. You said it yourself, if there were ENOUGH developers creating Linux games, we wouldn't see Proton. Therefore, there's not enough Linux developers. So with your logic, this is the conclusion:

No proton = not enough Linux development
With proton = not enough Linux development, but Linux users can now play way more games.

So even in the event it shrinks Linux development (which I think the evidence shows only to the contrary), it's still a net positive.

I never said Proton was a bad thing, indeed I think it’s necessary. Year to date 2018 Steam was only getting about 3.6 new native Linux game titles per day versus about 26.9 for Windows so it’s not like there was ton of native Linux development anyway. And the cumulative effect of this gap overtime simply had to be addressed beyond waiting for more native content. Almost six years into it there needed to be a shakeup.

Yes, this a net positive without question for Linux gamers and those who may be interested in gaming on Linux. But clearly there is a risk here in Linux gaming becomes defined by how compatible it is with Windows games and if we’re being real Windows is going to win that comparison all day long.
 
I never said Proton was a bad thing, indeed I think it’s necessary. Year to date 2018 Steam was only getting about 3.6 new native Linux game titles per day versus about 26.9 for Windows so it’s not like there was ton of native Linux development anyway. And the cumulative effect of this gap overtime simply had to be addressed beyond waiting for more native content. Almost six years into it there needed to be a shakeup.

Yes, this a net positive without question for Linux gamers and those who may be interested in gaming on Linux. But clearly there is a risk here in Linux gaming becomes defined by how compatible it is with Windows games and if we’re being real Windows is going to win that comparison all day long.
I think you're still missing the point. Whether it's running natively on Linux or not isn't the factor that affects future developer adoption, marketshare is. In other words, pretend you have two extreme scenarios:

Scenario 1: Linux has 0.5% of the gaming marketshare and games have TOTAL native Linux support.
Scenario 2: Linux has 1% of the gaming market share and games have NO native Linux support

Scenario 2 is going to entice more developers to port their game to Linux every time. Marketshare is the only thing that matters for platform support. If Linux can increase it in any way, it will bring more native Linux support because that will more directly lead to sales. It doesn't matter how it gets there. More developers will port natively, because that will get a Linux supported icon, which will mean more of an edge for getting Linux customers over companies that just release straight to Windows and rely on Proton.

Now again, none of this currently matters with the marketshare as low as it is, but the point is ANY increase in marketshare will lead to an increased number of native Linux games.
 
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So quick question...how is this going to work in this situation:

1) Developer releases win/only game
2) Works with proton but not officially supported by the developer as they don't support Linux
3) Developer releases updates/patches/new content for next year or two
4) At some point game breaks & no longer starts/has issues with Proton/Linux
5) Do I get a refund or am I just left with a non-working game I already paid for?

Isn't that the issue with some GOG game purchases being drm free? My understanding is a lot of those drm free games do not get updates after initial release due to having to code drm free patches differently? That would suck....
 
I never said Proton was a bad thing, indeed I think it’s necessary. Year to date 2018 Steam was only getting about 3.6 new native Linux game titles per day versus about 26.9 for Windows so it’s not like there was ton of native Linux development anyway. And the cumulative effect of this gap overtime simply had to be addressed beyond waiting for more native content. Almost six years into it there needed to be a shakeup.

Yes, this a net positive without question for Linux gamers and those who may be interested in gaming on Linux. But clearly there is a risk here in Linux gaming becomes defined by how compatible it is with Windows games and if we’re being real Windows is going to win that comparison all day long.

The idea is to push developers to shift away from the monopoly of Direct X and to start adopting Vulkan as their API in order to promote better cross platform compatibility. Everyone knows Windows is the dominant platform under Steam, Valve's latest move gives those that are over the problems relating to Windows more options when considering a move to Linux - Judging by the positive chatter all over the internet, it seems to be working.
 
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Now again, none of this currently matters with the marketshare as low as it is, but the point is ANY increase in marketshare will lead to an increased number of native Linux games.

I’m not denying this out of hand. But growth driven from Valve provided Windows compatibility that requires little to no developer effort is not the same as organic growth. If a developer can rely on Valve to do the work of making their Windows games Linux compatible with little to no effort, that’s exactly what they’ll do unless the growth is very substantial. That’s what we don’t know and it’s going to take some time to figure that out.

The idea is to push developers to shift away from the monopoly of Direct X and to start adopting Vulkan as their API in order to promote better cross platform compatibility. Everyone knows Windows is the dominant platform under Steam, Valve's latest move gives those that are over the problems relating to Windows more options when considering a move to Linux - Judging by the positive chatter all over the internet, it seems to be working.

Not sure why the chatter would be anything but positive. I’ve long pointed of the problem of the lack of native Linux gaming content and that it needed to be addressed and adding Windows compatibility tech to Steam is far from a new idea to mitigate this problem. But there’s no way to avoid with this approach the danger in Linux gaming being defined by how well it runs native Windows games. That clearly was not the intent behind SteamOS and Steam Machines/Boxes when they launched six years ago. If people want gaming PCs that are highly Windows compatible, it’s hard to beat Windows in that situation, even Windows 10.
 
Not sure why the chatter would be anything but positive. I’ve long pointed of the problem of the lack of native Linux gaming content and that it needed to be addressed and adding Windows compatibility tech to Steam is far from a new idea to mitigate this problem. But there’s no way to avoid with this approach the danger in Linux gaming being defined by how well it runs native Windows games. That clearly was not the intent behind SteamOS and Steam Machines/Boxes when they launched six years ago. If people want gaming PCs that are highly Windows compatible, it’s hard to beat Windows in that situation, even Windows 10.

You're assuming everyone wants to run Windows 10. Fact is, Windows 10 and it's numerous issues is going to be one of the determining factors in a users decision to switch to Linux. Increased gaming support simply sweetens the deal and very few gamers are hardcore gamers.
 
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growth driven from Valve provided Windows compatibility that requires little to no developer effort is not the same as organic growth.

If I recall, you sing the praises of Windows 10 Store UWP fake apps that are just Win32 programs converted with Centennial. That's not "organic" growth, and yet there you understand perfectly MS's goal of trying to improve perception, and that it's a means to an end.

The only threat that Proton and the proliferation of Linux gaming represents to Windows as a gaming platform, is that Windows will have to compete on its merits instead of coasting on monopoly power. That's a win-win for both platforms.

But there’s no way to avoid with this approach the danger in Linux gaming being defined by how well it runs native Windows games.

You're overthinking it. The only thing that matters to 99.9% of gamers on any platform is that the game starts playing when they click Play. If a Linux gamer can install a Steam game, click Play and it works, then they don't care about the underlying platform politics. They don't care that what they're really doing is spawning a containerized windows game, rather than a "real linux game", since it's all happening transparently.
 
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If I recall, you sing the praises of Windows 10 Store UWP fake apps that are just Win32 programs converted with Centennial. That's not "organic" growth, and yet there you understand perfectly MS's goal of trying to improve perception, and that it's a means to an end.

This makes no sense. Win32 applications are Windows applications from the ground up. UWPs are still Windows applications from the ground up that use extensions to Win32 added to Windows 10. Win32 apps in a centralized location is something that Windows has long needed. Why the hell should someone who uses something as common as Spotify be able to download from a Store or repository, even in Linux you can do that, but somehow it’s “not organic” that the same can be done in Windows 10.

The only threat that Proton and the proliferation of Linux gaming represents to Windows as a gaming platform, is that Windows will have to compete on its merits instead of coasting on monopoly power. That's a win-win for both platforms.

It’s not exactly competition though if the bulk of games that ends up running on Linux are nothing but Windows apps.

You're overthinking it. The only thing that matters to 99.9% of gamers on any platform is that the game starts playing when they click Play. If a Linux gamer can install a Steam game, click Play and it works, then they don't care about the underlying platform politics. They don't care that what they're really doing is spawning a containerized windows game, rather than a "real linux game", since it's all happening transparently.

Well sure. Look I get it, the numbers for Linux weren’t there and this was really the only way to deliver a lot of games far more quickly than Linux had been getting for last six years. But Linux is never overall going to more compatible with Windows games than Windows and that’s the risk with this approach.
 
You're assuming everyone wants to run Windows 10. Fact is, Windows 10 and it's numerous issues is going to be one of the determining factors in a users decision to switch to Linux. Increased gaming support simply sweetens the deal and very few gamers are hardcore gamers.


I get all of the issues some have with Windows 10 and those looking for other platforms for PC gaming. I’ve never argued that. I’ve long said that Linux didn’t have enough game content and got blasted from Linux fans repeatedly for that. Looks like Valve saw the same thing. It was obvious that growth in Windows game content was becoming overwhelming to that of Linux. 3.6 titles per day versus 26.9 for Windows just this year. Over time the gap was just getting bigger and bigger. So this had to be done to stop the bleeding in this area. It was obvious.

The obvious flaw with Proton is getting into a compatibility contest with Windows over Windows apps. That’s not long term sustainable for Linux. So maybe we’ll see more native Linux apps, more Vulkan, etc. But this can’t just be about how well Linux runs Windows games. Linux won’t win that one.
 
Well sure. Look I get it, the numbers for Linux weren’t there and this was really the only way to deliver a lot of games far more quickly than Linux had been getting for last six years. But Linux is never overall going to more compatible with Windows games than Windows and that’s the risk with this approach.
So what's the risk, exactly? A lot of games won't run natively on Linux? Oh my god, that's so much worse than how it is right now! We can't take that risk! Better play it safe and stick with the strategy Linux has been using for the past 25 years! That's been working out so well, Linux surely can't RISK all its enormous gains!

Wake up. THERE IS NO RISK. The worst thing that will happen is Linux continues not to gain traction. The best is that it does and there is FINALLY some erosion on Windows marketshare after decades. I can't call it either way, but again, THERE IS NO RISK.
 
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I get all of the issues some have with Windows 10 and those looking for other platforms for PC gaming. I’ve never argued that. I’ve long said that Linux didn’t have enough game content and got blasted from Linux fans repeatedly for that. Looks like Valve saw the same thing. It was obvious that growth in Windows game content was becoming overwhelming to that of Linux. 3.6 titles per day versus 26.9 for Windows just this year. Over time the gap was just getting bigger and bigger. So this had to be done to stop the bleeding in this area. It was obvious.

The obvious flaw with Proton is getting into a compatibility contest with Windows over Windows apps. That’s not long term sustainable for Linux. So maybe we’ll see more native Linux apps, more Vulkan, etc. But this can’t just be about how well Linux runs Windows games. Linux won’t win that one.

You're stating obvious points that no one is arguing. However, if more developers shift their API to Vulkan than Proton or not Linux will run Windows games within a couple of percent of native Windows.

I've been playing Doom and it flies, I've just discovered CoD MW2 MP runs perfectly and there's still populated servers and I'm loving it. I've even had a crack at Red Alert 3 Uprising and Stalker and am really enjoying the seamless compatibility with Linux.
 
You're stating obvious points that no one is arguing. However, if more developers shift their API to Vulkan than Proton or not Linux will run Windows games within a couple of percent of native Windows.

I've been playing Doom and it flies, I've just discovered CoD MW2 MP runs perfectly and there's still populated servers and I'm loving it. I've even had a crack at Red Alert 3 Uprising and Stalker and am really enjoying the seamless compatibility with Linux.

You say a lot of what I’ve said is obvious now but whenever I mentioned the lack of native Linux content as a major problem you and others weren’t having any of it. No big deal, fortunately Valve got it thus Proton.

And hey I get it, being able to run whatever you game you want is sweet as hell.
 
You say a lot of what I’ve said is obvious now but whenever I mentioned the lack of native Linux content as a major problem you and others weren’t having any of it. No big deal, fortunately Valve got it thus Proton.

And hey I get it, being able to run whatever you game you want is sweet as hell.

It's safe to say that no matter what happens with Linux gaming - even if it gained a million new users in the next 24hrs - Windows gaming is going to be coasting on momentum for a long, long time. Valve's interest in Steam Play isn't about about converting Windows gamers to Linux, as it is pulling in new game sales from Linux-only users. The percentage of Windows gamers that Steam Play compels to jump to Linux-only gaming is going to be trivial for the foreseeable future.
 
So what's the risk, exactly? A lot of games won't run natively on Linux? Oh my god, that's so much worse than how it is right now! We can't take that risk! Better play it safe and stick with the strategy Linux has been using for the past 25 years! That's been working out so well, Linux surely can't RISK all its enormous gains!

Wake up. THERE IS NO RISK. The worst thing that will happen is Linux continues not to gain traction. The best is that it does and there is FINALLY some erosion on Windows marketshare after decades. I can't call it either way, but again, THERE IS NO RISK.

If the objective is the eroding of Windows market share, then they are wasting their time. People can actually have both Windows and Linux gaming computers. The only objective for Linux should be doing better for itself, nothing else matters.
 
The only objective for Linux should be doing better for itself, nothing else matters.

So much this. People have been complaining about Windows decades, it has its problems without question. But gaming? That’s probably the single greatest strength of Windows in the desktop space, even Windows 10. Trying to build a gaming platform using Windows apps against Windows, that’s only going to go so far and not that far beyond Linux fans.
 
This is highly optimistic.

In my experience the linux performance penalty FOR NATIVE TITLES can be as much as 50%. Add in a compatibility layer and that figure goes way up!

This hasn't been my experience at all. Generally I see 2-10% differences between windows and linux native with many titles performing better.
 
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If the objective is the eroding of Windows market share, then they are wasting their time. People can actually have both Windows and Linux gaming computers. The only objective for Linux should be doing better for itself, nothing else matters.

No one's interested in 'eroding' Windows monopolization. Valve is only interested in pushing developers to utilize a more open API such as Vulkan over a closed API such as Direct X in order for Valve to reduce their reliance on the Windows monopoly by placing more of their eggs in a basket other than the Windows basket. This benefits gamers as a whole as the hope is that by increasing interest in an open API such as Vulkan console developers will shift away from their closed API's for Vulkan making poor performing console ports a thing of the past.

A unified, open API is a good thing.
 
Minecraft for one...

Almost anything using the Source / Source 2 Engine.

Dota 2, Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last light Redux, and many others.

Thanks. This is where PC gaming can get complicated. When it comes to benchmarking PC gaming performance, no one uses these old titles on the new gaming hardware. And there there’s a lot of different classes of hardware. My lowly Surface Go, pretty much as low as it can go in the Windows world these days on new hardware, can run Minecraft, HL2 and Portal 2 with ease. My sig rig crushes the hell of these things, blowing well past 60 FPS at 4k max settings. In any case, these titles aren’t the ones used by professional gaming hardware review sites to benchmark these days, unless it’s something like a Surface Go.

Which leads to the issue of where are Linux devices for people to buy? Maybe Dota 2 would scream on a device like a Surface Go running Linux relative to Windows 10. My guess is that would probably do better. But there’s nothing out there for anyone to test other than to build their own.

So again, complicated. Older games on slower hardware, maybe there are solid gaming wins for Linux to show. But no reviewer is going to be testing say an RTX 2080 under Linux when the reviews come out using five plus year old games.
 
There's nothing complicated about it. Maintain 60fps or higher at decent settings and most people are happy. Generally speaking, most Linux PCs with a dedicated GPU would run rings around a Surface Go.

Most people are casual gamers, very few are hardcore gamers that play every single title in the Steam Catalog at 144Hz.

If Valve's plan works and Vulkan adoption overtakes DX12 than both Windows and Linux should achieve a performance parity whether Steam Play is used or not. For example, Doom under Linux runs as fast as it does under Windows using the Vulkan API.
 
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There's nothing complicated about it. Maintain 60fps or higher at decent settings and most people are happy. Generally speaking, most Linux PCs with a dedicated GPU would run rings around a Surface Go.
Most people are casual gamers, very few are hardcore gamers that play every single title in the Steam Catalog.

Missing the point. “Portal 2 runs faster on Linux!” No PC gaming review site uses something as old as Portal 2, something that runs well on something as anemic as a Surface Go, for benchmarking purposes. When you put those kinds of games on higher end hardware they get crushed anyway, well beyond the ability of any monitor to deal with the insane framerates.

Yes, most people are causal gamers. That’s why Linux fans have gone nuts over Proton. We’re well past this crap. Most PC gamers, sure casual. Proton isn’t about brining casual gaming to Linux, it’s about the latest and greatest. There were already plenty of more casual NATIVE Linux games on Linux. That simply wasn’t enough. Hell 3 of the games on the initial list are VR games. Which I find odd considering that Steam Linux VR is STILL in beta after 18 months. Or maybe not, I have no idea and even Linux gaming sites don't say jack shit about Linux VR these days. The release notes on Steams Linux VR GitHub still say that you can't update the Vive firmware under Linux. Wow.

If Valve's plan works and Vulkan adoption overtakes DX12 than both Windows and Linux should achieve a performance parity whether Steam Play is used or not.

Doom under Linux runs as fast as it does under Windows using the Vulkan API.

I’m not doubting the ability of Linux to perform as well or better in games compared to Windows. That’s not going to happen with wrappers around native Windows games though.
 
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