Best Linux distro.. "best"..

[ccman]

As to your first point, I can't recall the last time I've seen a corrupt OOXML format document, and I deal with a ton of them daily. The old binary format files were a much different story.

Yeah, same here. We used to have occasional problems with binary formats, but the only time we had any issues recently was a couple of years ago when a virus managed to get in and bork a few folders on the file server.

Here you go. See anything wrong with those styles on the last screen grab?

We don't get this all that frequently, but it does happen. I have a collection of before and afters. Also, that the XLCleanerDotNET4.0 exists and only works with XLSX is a testament that I am not alone and certain problems happen with the XLSX OOXML format frequently enough that a programmer created a tool to fix the issue.

 

[heatlesssun]

Never said stuff doesn't happen but for me it's so rare I don't recall the last time it happened. This looks like something to me that was programmatically created. I've done some apps that create Excel and Word OOXML and it's a pretty complex format and Office apps can be very finicky about programmatically generated content that doesn't do things the way Office wants. It's been a while but I developed an app that did this for a while during development until I figured it out and never occurred again.

 

[ccman]

Never said stuff doesn't happen but for me it's so rare I don't recall the last time it happened. This looks like something to me that was programmatically created. I've done some apps that create Excel and Word OOXML and it's a pretty complex format and Office apps can be very finicky about programmatically generated content that doesn't do things the way Office wants. It's been a while but I developed an app that did this for a while during development until I figured it out and never occurred again.

I didn't make any claim, explicitly or implicitly, about anything you did or didn't say in regards to whether or not this sort of thing does or does not happen. Nor do I claim, implicitly or explicitly that you are making a claim about the frequency, or lack thereof of the occurrence of this stuff and whether or not it occurs. "It may not be reproduced or retransmitted in any form, and the accounts and descriptions of this [post] may not be disseminated, without express written consent."

Now that the legal or defensive BS is out of the way, if you do an internet search (presumably with Cortana using Bing with ink, touch, or voice input methodologies), you'll see that it happens enough that there exists quite a market *gasp* of free and commercial products to repair (or attempt to repair) corrupt XLSX files.

The existence of corrupt XLSX files and repair tools does not imply that there is any problem with the OOXML XLSX format or the Microsoft program most widely used to create them. The author of this post realizes that any 3rd party program (malicious or otherwise), add-in, or copied over corrupt data can make a mess of an Excel OOXML file and is likely not Microsoft's fault.

 

[flu!d]

I never said a thing about sales. I talked about marketshare. Sales have nothing to do with Linux marketshare.

So over the counter numerical sales of an OS in both packaged and pre-installed form isn't a very reliable method of determining market share? The way I see it the two are undeniably linked.

And the point about the numerous versions of Office suffering compatibility issues are well worth pointing out when considering the formatting issues encountered when using Libre Office.

Another point about MS operating systems that annoys the hell out of me is the method of updating the OS, why the hell does the OS need to be rebooted in order to apply each and every update?! I can't stand booting a machine to see 'applying update 1 of 40'.

Nope. It's not a feature specific to the Surface, ink is a feature of Office be will supported on the iPad Pro by Office. Is there a version of Libre Office for the iPad or Android?

I certainly hope not if a stylus is to be used. I haven't used a stylus since the early days of Windows mobile and I never plan on using one again. If it reaches that point I'll buy another laptop. Libreoffice is available for Android, however it is still in beta. I use my Nexus 9 for a number of things, but I don't really plan on typing documents on it.

 

[kumquat]

So over the counter numerical sales of an OS in both packaged and pre-installed form isn't a very reliable method of determining market share? The way I see it the two are undeniably linked.

No, it's not, and the reason is that virtually no Linux installations are from sales, and it's impossible to tell how many sales of OSes (whether Windows, Linux, OS X, whatever) are still actually in use on a PC.

 

[heatlesssun]

I certainly hope not if a stylus is to be used. I haven't used a stylus since the early days of Windows mobile and I never plan on using one again. If it reaches that point I'll buy another laptop. Libreoffice is available for Android, however it is still in beta. I use my Nexus 9 for a number of things, but I don't really plan on typing documents on it.

A pen, pencil, stylus whatever one calls it, is just another option to interact with a device in ways not possible with a keyboard and mouse or touch. Most may never use such an option, others will use this option a great deal. There a more devices now than ever out there with the capability spanning many platforms and apps, so it's not specific to a Surface device or Windows.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

No, it's not, and the reason is that virtually no Linux installations are from sales, and it's impossible to tell how many sales of OSes (whether Windows, Linux, OS X, whatever) are still actually in use on a PC.

And that's part of their beauty. Less data tracking than the alternatives.

 

[CyberJunk]

office 360 works in linux since you just log in through a web browser

 

[Deleted member 245375]

This thread is still going?!?!?!

 

[flu!d]

A pen, pencil, stylus whatever one calls it, is just another option to interact with a device in ways not possible with a keyboard and mouse or touch. Most may never use such an option, others will use this option a great deal. There a more devices now than ever out there with the capability spanning many platforms and apps, so it's not specific to a Surface device or Windows.

Of course any device can use a stylus, but the Surface needs a stylus as navigating Windows with your finger is almost impossible in many circumstances.

Got my retail boxed version of Windows 10 here, looking forward to installing it like a hole in the head. That's another thing about Linux, installation is so easy, I can literally have my rig back up and running in 45mins.

 

[heatlesssun]

Of course any device can use a stylus, but the Surface needs a stylus as navigating Windows with your finger is almost impossible in many circumstances.

Not really sure what circumstances you're referring to. The desktop isn't touch optimized entirely but with Windows 8.x/10 there are many things in Windows proper that work pretty well only with touch. I copy and open files everyday via touch through File Explorer. Part of the reason for Settings was to make many of the harder things to do with touch easier.

The main difficulty with touch on the desktop are apps that aren't touch aware, like Libre Office. It doesn't even support touch scrolling which actually betting to be uncommon, all of the major web browsers for Windows today have at least basic touch support.

Got my retail boxed version of Windows 10 here, looking forward to installing it like a hole in the head. That's another thing about Linux, installation is so easy, I can literally have my rig back up and running in 45mins.

The thing that takes the time for Windows installs for me are apps. Getting just a few games setup from Steam can take quite a while, fortunately just got a nice speed bump from Time Warner up to 300 Mbps for what was 50 at the same price.

 

[CEpeep]

The main difficulty with touch on the desktop are apps that aren't touch aware, like Libre Office. It doesn't even support touch scrolling which actually betting to be uncommon, all of the major web browsers for Windows today have at least basic touch support.

Steam is the worst offender in my experience. It doesn't support touch scrolling or native DPI scaling on any OS.

 

[heatlesssun]

Steam is the worst offender in my experience. It doesn't support touch scrolling or native DPI scaling on any OS.

Steam is a perfect example of this though in the case Steam it's not as bad since virtually all of its games are keyboard and mouse or controller enabled.

 

[CEpeep]

Steam is a perfect example of this though in the case Steam it's not as bad since virtually all of its games are keyboard and mouse or controller enabled.

There's enough touch-enabled games that Steam not having at least decent touch support is bad. When I have to get out my stylus to launch a game and then put it away again when the game loads, something is wrong.

 

[heatlesssun]

There's enough touch-enabled games that Steam not having at least decent touch support is bad. When I have to get out my stylus to launch a game and then put it away again when the game loads, something is wrong.

I know of a few touch support games in Steam like Civ V and there's that touch overlay called Gesture Works that I bought and have barely used that adds touch support to about 200 games in Steam I think. So what are you playing that has native touch on Steam?

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

The main difficulty with touch on the desktop are apps that aren't touch aware, like Libre Office. It doesn't even support touch scrolling which actually betting to be uncommon, all of the major web browsers for Windows today have at least basic touch support.

IMHO touch is completely and totally irrelevant in a desktop OS.

Just because Microsoft did a cross-over tablet device doesn't mean that it is the future, or even desirable at all.

I certainly don't want anyone touching my screen on my desktop. I get annoyed enough as it is that I have to wipe fingerprints off of my phone.

I would actually prefer if none of the apps were touch aware, because it screws up the screen real estate to have to have apps designed for someones fat fingers, instead of a nice little mouse pointer.

Don't get me wrong. Touch has its place, just not on the desktop. You can pry my mouse and keyboard from my cold dead hands.

 

[ccman]

I have a lot of respect for the Windows NT line in general (from Windows NT 3.1 to Windows 10). My understanding is that the base Windows NT kernel, Cutler's NT, is very efficient and well written and has improved with each OS iteration. I would be interested to see what could be done with the NT kernel along the line of what has been done with the Linux kernel. I'm not an operating system expert, but I wonder what you would consider the core of Linux and what part of Windows would correlate with that. Eric Traut's MinWin talk quoted the Windows 7 MinWin taking 25 MB on disk and 40 MB of memory.

So I have used Windows Server (2003, 2008 R2) to set up a VPN server (also as a router). Windows Server 2012 requires a 1.4 GHz CPU, 512 MB of RAM, and 32 GB of free space. With Server Core, Windows utilizes 8.5 GB of drive space. The SonicWALL SSL VPN Virtual Appliance requires 1 vCPU, 2 GB of RAM, and 2 GB of disk space. I'm not sure I would be comfortable running Windows Server 2012 R2 on 512 MB of RAM and tend to give it 2 - 8 GB minimum. Those requirements are comparable though.

The cool thing is you can run Linux on a device with a 250 MHz CPU, 8 MB RAM, and as little as 4 MB of space as a router and for VPN (I'm referencing OpenWRT or DD-WRT). Looking at MinWin, a device should be able to do the same thing with lets say 64 MB of RAM and 32 MB of space. Microsoft announced that Azure Cloud Switch is running Linux. With Linux, Microsoft could easily use the built up expertise developed from the history of Linux being used in network devices and contribute back to the Open Compute Project. They wouldn't be so willing to give back parts of Windows.

Mark Russinovich, CTO of Windows Azure, said an open source Windows was definitely possible (http://www.wired.com/2015/04/microsoft-open-source-windows-definitely-possible/). At that point, it would be much easier to compare Linux and Windows from a technical standpoint. What would open sourcing Windows do to Windows? What would open sourcing Windows do to Linux? Apple open sourced XNU and Darwin and it doesn't seem to have affected either Mac OS X or iOS or Linux (at all).

 

[heatlesssun]

IMHO touch is completely and totally irrelevant in a desktop OS.

Just because Microsoft did a cross-over tablet device doesn't mean that it is the future, or even desirable at all.

Why can't an OS allow for different types interaction based on the method? The argument that Windows 8 raised is that a hybrid OS compromises both sides of the OS and the complaints about Windows 8’s UI seemed to many as proof. I think the issue there was the execution. Whatever issues there have been with Windows 10 only the most vocal anti-Microsoft camp has normally complained at its ease of use with a keyboard and mouse even though 10 still retains the most important aspects of the touch capabilities of 10.

I would actually prefer if none of the apps were touch aware, because it screws up the screen real estate to have to have apps designed for someones fat fingers, instead of a nice little mouse pointer.

Well designed modern should be able to scale to screen and input method. We’ve been talking a lot about Libre Office versus Microsoft Office. One thing MS Office does is recognize input method and behave accordingly. For instance, you get different context menus in many places in MS Office based on input method. More traditional context menus with a pointing device like a mouse or pen and more touch friendly menus with touch.

Don't get me wrong. Touch has its place, just not on the desktop. You can pry my mouse and keyboard from my cold dead hands.

And a good hybrid solution should allow one to use the input methods they want. Microsoft has created a viable solution that allows this. Use the kind of device you want with whatever applications will work with whatever input methods you want. While this kind of choice and flexibility may mean nothing to you it does have value to others. Most of the PCs used today are portable and gutty more so all of the time. Keyboards and mice are great but they do limit mobility.

 

[ccman]

I'm definitely on Team Zarathustra[H] on this issue.

Look, more power to Microsoft for supporting more input methods. They advanced touch and pen input in many ways with their work. I just don't appreciate having to compromise the keyboard and mouse experience and information density just because Microsoft also wants to support these other input methods. I don't feel touch, pen, or mobile (in the tablet or phone scenario) should have to sacrifice the ability to quickly interact with their device at a glance or quick tap just because my preferred input methods allows me to be more precise and see more dense information. Microsoft's Continuum is a great concept. I want to see them take it further. Windows isn't optimized for the 1366x768 resolution (or 1024x768 or 800x600), nor is it optimized for 7680 × 4320 (or 3840 × 2160). It can use scaling techniques to accommodate both with little compromise. I would like to see Microsoft do the same for input methods. So far, it seems to me they have failed with Windows 8/8.1 and 10 at this goal compared to the solution for resolutions.

Imagine what Windows would look like if the input method de jure currently was the Playstation controller (or the Valve controller) instead of touch and pen/stylus. Where would they have taken Windows 8 and then tried to fix mistakes with Windows 10? What if the hot thing was the WiiU controller or Nintendo 3DS and Windows was "re-imagined" for those?

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't feel touch, pen, or mobile (in the tablet or phone scenario) should have to sacrifice the ability to quickly interact with their device at a glance or quick tap just because my preferred input methods allows me to be more precise and see more dense information.

How specifically does Windows 10 in your words "sacrifice the ability to quickly interact with their device at a glance or quick tap"? using a keyboard and mouse.

Microsoft's Continuum is a great concept. I want to see them take it further. Windows isn't optimized for the 1366x768 resolution (or 1024x768 or 800x600), nor is it optimized for 7680 × 4320 (or 3840 × 2160). It can use scaling techniques to accommodate both with little compromise. I would like to see Microsoft do the same for input methods. So far, it seems to me they have failed with Windows 8/8.1 and 10 at this goal compared to the solution for resolutions.

The problem for Windows with desktop applications is that many of the applications simply don't consider DPI to this day. So far however I've not had any issues with my Surface Book with is pretty high DPI screen and it's done well with per monitor scaling. I've had no problems with running Libre Office or GIMP or Steam on MS Office or any number of things. But there still work to be done here by Microsoft. Moving an app with a mouse between the Surface Book screen at 200% scaling and normal typical 100% scaled 1080P monitor between screens is a little wonky.

Imagine what Windows would look like if the input method de jure currently was the Playstation controller (or the Valve controller) instead of touch and pen/stylus. Where would they have taken Windows 8 and then tried to fix mistakes with Windows 10? What if the hot thing was the WiiU controller or Nintendo 3DS and Windows was "re-imagined" for those?

The changes in the Windows UI though are about mobility. If the idea that Windows HAS to be used with a keyboard and mouse forever and always then it simply can't be as mobile if at least some of the time it doesn't need those input devices.

 

[kumquat]

IMHO touch is completely and totally irrelevant in a desktop OS.

Just because Microsoft did a cross-over tablet device doesn't mean that it is the future, or even desirable at all.

I certainly don't want anyone touching my screen on my desktop. I get annoyed enough as it is that I have to wipe fingerprints off of my phone.

I would actually prefer if none of the apps were touch aware, because it screws up the screen real estate to have to have apps designed for someones fat fingers, instead of a nice little mouse pointer.

Don't get me wrong. Touch has its place, just not on the desktop. You can pry my mouse and keyboard from my cold dead hands.

I literally use touch input every single day on my laptop. It's incredibly useful for me.

Just because you don't see any use for it for yourself doesn't make it irrelevant. Don't use it if you don't want to, but I would be extremely annoyed if I didn't have it anymore.

Anyway, why is there so much discussion over touch? The Surface works just fine with a keyboard/trackpad/mouse/whatever.

 

[ccman]

How specifically does Windows 10 in your words "sacrifice the ability to quickly interact with their device at a glance or quick tap"? using a keyboard and mouse.

Not Windows 10, past versions of Windows. Maybe Windows 2000 and Windows XP? From reading on the forum, it sounds like you're in a better position to tell me which version of Windows would be hardest on touch/pen.

My understanding was that in some ways Windows 8/8.1 was superior for touch/pen than Windows 10. Windows 7 was superior for keyboard and mouse. On a continuum between Windows 7 and Windows 8.x where Windows 10 is somewhere in the middle, why don't we use the idea of Continuum and give keyboard and mouse users a more Windows 7 experience and give touch and ink users a superior experience than Windows 8.x on the same operating system? Why doesn't Microsoft scale Windows to the input like it scales to resolution? Microsoft has already proven it can determine whether you're on a tablet, 2-in1/hybrid, or desktop. How about take that inch of progress and turn it into a mile? To borrow from Syfy (Sci Fi Channel), Microsoft should re-imagine greater.

 

[kumquat]

I don't see anything about Windows 10 that makes it inferior to 7 for keyboard and mouse. The interface is virtually identical.

And Windows does scale the OS to the input in some ways. On my Thinkpad Yoga, which is a convertible, folding it back into tablet mode automatically puts Windows into Tablet Mode. This turns the Start Menu into a Windows 8 style full screen mode, enlarges the taskbar buttons, and does a few other things to make interaction more finger-friendly.

 

[heatlesssun]

My understanding was that in some ways Windows 8/8.1 was superior for touch/pen than Windows 10. Windows 7 was superior for keyboard and mouse. On a continuum between Windows 7 and Windows 8.x where Windows 10 is somewhere in the middle, why don't we use the idea of Continuum and give keyboard and mouse users a more Windows 7 experience and give touch and ink users a superior experience than Windows 8.x on the same operating system? Why doesn't Microsoft scale Windows to the input like it scales to resolution? Microsoft has already proven it can determine whether you're on a tablet, 2-in1/hybrid, or desktop. How about take that inch of progress and turn it into a mile? To borrow from Syfy (Sci Fi Channel), Microsoft should re-imagine greater.

I don't think there's a huge difference between touch and pen between 10 and 8.x though they do some things quite differently and there are some things with touch on Windows 8 that did work better. For instance, the maligned Charms. In Windows 8.x it was easy with the right thumb to control brightness and volume. Windows 10 replaced the Charms with Action Center which is a notification and control center that could replicate the thumb control and volume with no problem but doesn't. That so far hasn't changed in any of the Insider Builds. One thing that did change that was in 8.1 but left out of Windows 10 10240 was the ability to open apps directly on a certain section of a split screen, though Windows 10 only supports to apps on a split rather than the four 8.1 did. However two desktop apps and be split this way per screen compared to only one and 1 to 3 modern apps in Windows 8.1.

As far as the "Windows 7" desktop experience it's a bit overplayed in terms of the UI. Aero glass, more window configuration options like boarder width and a different Start Menu are the key differences. Aero glass. Some like, some don't. Window configuration options, Few would ever change. The Start Menu is still probably the big sticking point though the Start Menu in 10 has the ability to store many more short cuts and jump lists for all of those short cuts is coming in Threshold 2. Only two things need to be added to the Start Menu to put the issue to bed and let the 7 Start Menu rest in peace. Folder options for the tiles and a tile size that mimics the look of a Classic Start Menu short cut. At that point the 10 Start Menu becomes much better because it becomes a much better shortcut system. Of course there's more that could and should be done.

On the other hand, when it comes to multiple monitors, window arrangement, 10 is a lot better on the desktop. Task bars on all monitors, snapping with a mouse even on interior edges of a multi-monitor setup (that's improved in the newest build) and the OS X like task view which it really great with multiple monitors.

 

[kumquat]

Oh yeah, 10 is far superior to 7 for multi-monitor.

 

[flu!d]

I personally do not in any way like the idea of touch enabled apps or operating systems designed for both desktop and tablet interaction.

I do not want applications taking up a vast majority of screen real estate on my desktop just so it can be operated by finger interaction, and I find the crossover of desktop vs tablet OS integration in Windows 8 and somewhat in Windows 10 downright tacky.

Windows 8 was shocking in this regard for obvious reasons, and when it comes to Windows 10 I don't understand why the OS when installed on a desktop PC even needs the touch interface? I mean why do we have a control panel as well as a settings panel?!

Even Apple seem capable, at the moment, of segregating both their desktop and touch devices.

And as someone mentioned, I don't want grubby fingerprints all over my beautiful 4k monitor.

And I concur with everyone else that Steam is shocking when it comes to high DPI - Get with it Valve! I should stick the 4k monitor on the Linux rig and see how Steam scales in HiDPI mode. But Steam isn't the only application that struggles with high DPI even in Windows 10.

 

[kumquat]

You're tilting at windmills. The "apps designed for touch taking up huge amounts of screen real estate" don't exist. Windows has mode that makes it more touch friendly but for the most part it's the same as Win7.

 

[B00nie]

"Rare" lol. Unless something has changed dramatically in the past year, the compatibility problems are much more extensive than that. I opened a simple lab report with a few charts and graphs, and every single one of the 17 pages, including the bibliography, had massive formatting problems. I tried opening some basic letterhead from my employer and text was spread all over the page.

LibreOffice or OpenOffice compatibility with MSO is mostly useless.

And since this is completely Microsofts fault, people should dump Office and use the free alternative.

 

[heatlesssun]

You're tilting at windmills. The "apps designed for touch taking up huge amounts of screen real estate" don't exist. Windows has mode that makes it more touch friendly but for the most part it's the same as Win7.

The argument against a hybrid OS got a lot weaker with Windows 10. Windows 7 isn't inherently more efficient with a keyboard and mouse than 10. The big difference is probably the Start Menu. Most of the arguments against it are mostly aesthetics related, "Tiles suck" that sort of thing. A folder system for tiles would be a great improvement.

 

[kumquat]

And since this is completely Microsofts fault, people should dump Office and use the free alternative.

The limitation there is that LibreOffice is simply not as capable as Office. Telling the budgeting department to use Calc or the legal department to use Writer would result in fits of laughter.

LibreOffice and other free alternatives are great for people who:
1) Don't need MSO compatibility
2) Don't need the advanced/superior functionality of Office
3) Don't need any of the programs offered by Office but not by any free alternatives

 

[ccman]

As far as the "Windows 7" desktop experience it's a bit overplayed in terms of the UI.

You would say that. Microsoft is playing to exactly what you want out of your operating system. I wouldn't say that the Windows 7 desktop experience is overplayed. Microsoft is compromising my experience to cater to you and another market who, at this point, couldn't give two shits about Microsoft. I have not seen evidence that the current captive mobile and tablet audience that Microsoft is salivating over is moving to Windows 10 from Android and iOS. In a sense, they're creating a new market for themselves. Undoubtedly, a few people, a not insignificant number, are moving over. It's funny though that the story went from: 1) the traditional PC market is in decline but mobile (iOS and Android) and tablet (iOS and Android) are hot; to 2) traditional PC in decline, tablet slowing , mobile hot to now 3) traditional PC in decline, tablet slowing, mobile slowing.

At work I use Windows 7, Windows Server 2012 R2 (tiles and start screen on Server?! why???), and VMware. At home lately, I've been mostly using Mac OS X on a Core 2 Duo for recreational internet browsing, Windows 7 for desktop/gaming (dual boot, but Windows 10 usually is not chosen), some Windows 7 laptop, and occasionally the Windows 10 laptop.

I'll address shortcomings in Windows 8.x and 10 to a traditional desktop and laptop keyboard and mouse user, namely me. It's hard for me to separate that I don't like the aesthetics first and foremost. Apart from that, despite the mess and jumble Control Panel was, I find it worlds away more efficient and quick to get to things than Settings. Settings, and everything in it, is an inferior mess compared to Windows 7. (Why not do Continuum on Settings - Microsoft knows I'm on devices with no touch or pen capability, when I click Settings, give me Control Panel). The Settings app feels like Outlook's side-by-side view compared to... well Control Panel. Personalization and Screen Resolution present much less immediate utility now (much more click-through). I find the same thing if I want to manage network settings. I'm getting bite sized pieces of information and have to follow links to get more bite sized pieces. It doesn't feel like a struggle to get used to a new interface, it feels like a dumbed down interface with bad information density.

Immediately Cortana gets turned off and online search gets turned off. I am a fan of online help, and Microsoft knows how to do it right. Online help is indispensable in Microsoft's other programs. Simply taking Bing results and presenting it with what seems like no curation as part of the operating system is a terrible idea, is insecure, and compromises the integrity of the operating system. Ubuntu does this and it is just as bad when Canonical does it. But hey, they make a lot less money with the alternative, right?

I could go on, but included applications ("apps") are another big shortcoming for me. In my traditional desktop experience, Photos is far inferior to Windows Photo Viewer. Calculator is terrible. It's great for touch I imagine, but it is too much wasted space for purely keyboard and mouse. I've grown to view Task Manager as a push. There are still places where old Task Manager was better, but new task manager clearly has improvements. That being said, why task manager when your can use process explorer. Can I have the option to run "desktop" calculator? Likewise, if the only thing I want to do is listen to music, Groove Music is far inferior to Windows Media Player. Fortunately, it's easy enough to revert that, and I realize that Groove Music should be compared to iTunes, not Windows Media Player, Media Player Classic, VLC, WinAmp, etc., and in that comparison adds utility. I respect the goal of Microsoft Edge along the lines of reducing complexity, cleaning up the code, increasing speed, etc. I'm on my Windows 10 laptop now, and I'm using Internet Explorer 11 with YouTube up. I had problems with YouTube on Edge on my older laptop when it was on Windows 10. Now that I have a newer laptop, I should probably give Edge another chance, as the issue was probably with the ThinkPad x120e and the video adapter. That being said, that ThinkPad's experience with Windows 8.x and 10 was bad. Ubuntu and Windows 7 run well on it. Most places where Microsoft replaced a Windows 7 included application with an "app", it has been to the detriment of the keyboard and mouse experience. Also, "apps" load slower that applications. Open Windows Media Player, it pops right up. Open Groove Music, there is a delay between when you see just its background and the actual content loads up. I can't wait (sarcasm) to see what they do with app-ifying mspaint, Windows Defender (only its settings are app-ified), Remote Desktop Connection, Snipping Tool, Steps Recorder, Sticky Notes, Notepad, Character Map, CompMgmt, Disk Cleanup, PowerShell, Command Prompt, etc., etc., etc. I can go on about the "app" experience and how applications are better, but I want to move on for this post.

And the Start Menu is not better or even functionally equivalent to Windows 7 Start Menu for keyboard and mouse. Click All apps and want to right-click a folder? Nope. Hierarchical view of All Programs was better than All apps. It's cool for touch that you can click a letter and see the alphabet but it is useless for me and takes up too much space. The bigger icons are useless for me and mean I can't see as much without scrolling. I still don't use tile world, so that part of the Start Menu is useless to me. This means there is less information presented to me when I click Start than there used to be.

Notifications (or is it Action Center? Has Microsoft decided?) would be better if Microsoft didn't advertise to me there. I got a notification saying something like "Virus and Spyware Protection." It was trying to recommend that I scan my machine, which I did. The notification that popped up did a terrible job of communicating this information. "Scan for threats" would have been a better way to convey that message.

Many of these things can be solved by going out and downloading replacements, but it still gives me the overall feeling that my goal with Windows 10 is to beat it into submission or into something that makes sense for me. Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, and Windows 7 were all ready for me out of the "box," whereas Windows 8.x and 10 make me sigh and wonder what I will do with the mess I've been presented.

And how ridiculous is it that a best Linux distro thread has devolved into a Windows 10 defense, advocacy, evangelism, pushing, etc thread. I think it is undeniable that Linux has improved, even if it still isn't close to ready for most people using Windows or OS X. Maybe in a decade it will still not be in the same league as Windows. Still, the answer to the question "which is the best linux distro for a user coming from Windows" (who wants to experiment with Linux while not leaving Windows) is not Windows 10.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

... Windows Server 2012 R2 (tiles and start screen on Server?! why???)

I would go even further, and say "GUI on a Server!? WHYYY????"

 

[ccman]

I would go even further, and say "GUI on a Server!? WHYYY????"

LOL. Good point. Touche.

I want to say "coworkers", but the true answer is my skills aren't up enough to go entirely Server Core (in the Windows world) and some of our server side applications still need it. There is no reason for many of the servers, particularly those hosting core network functionality. But hey: VMware and SonicWALL SSL VPN!

 

[ccman]

Another Windows 10 gripe. After writing that post and shutting down (I turned off Fast Boot because shutdown should mean actually shutting down), I noticed Windows was "getting ready for new updates..." I set the laptop aside and moved on.

When we push Windows Updates at my company, I send out an email a couple days before letting them know it will happen. It still annoys our users, but at least they get notification in top of the detail that Windows provides.

I have no clue what Windows 10 was updating. I could find out, but I don't want to boot back in to Windows just to find out what it was updating when all I wanted to do was switch back to my Windows 7 desktop anyway.

I see the point of automatic updates for security sake. Apparently heatlesssun also gets an agile software development orgasm every time Microsoft releases an update for Windows 10. I still would like some notification. It doesn't have to even be on the level of importance of a "Get Office 365" notification to Microsoft. How about a little Windows Update icon on the system tray that it's entirely up to me to notice?

Meh, I guess Microsoft has more important things to tell me about, like "Suggested Apps".

 

[CEpeep]

How about a little Windows Update icon on the system tray that it's entirely up to me to notice?

Meh, I guess Microsoft has more important things to tell me about, like "Suggested Apps".

The idea of updates in Windows 10 is to be something the user never thinks about. Most people don't even see that screen since their machine reboots overnight when they're not using it to install the updates.

Even presenting an icon about new updates being ready instills in the user the illusion of some kind of control over them. The update status of your OS is no longer your responsibility in Windows 10, it rests with Microsoft. As long as your computer is on sometimes and is idle sometimes, it's going to stay updated without any change in behavior from the user. It's a bit jarring for users used to old versions of Windows, but if your normal experience with technology is something like a Chromebook or a video game console, this is normal to you.

 

[ccman]

The idea of updates in Windows 10 is to be something the user never thinks about. Most people don't even see that screen since their machine reboots overnight when they're not using it to install the updates.

Even presenting an icon about new updates being ready instills in the user the illusion of some kind of control over them. The update status of your OS is no longer your responsibility in Windows 10, it rests with Microsoft. As long as your computer is on sometimes and is idle sometimes, it's going to stay updated without any change in behavior from the user. It's a bit jarring for users used to old versions of Windows, but if your normal experience with technology is something like a Chromebook or a video game console, this is normal to you.

That is not the experience I got. If it was truly something I didn't have to think about, I wouldn't have noticed it and wouldn't have had to think about it. My laptop wasn't idle either. It was doing something - shutting down, which took considerably longer than normal (i5 5200U with SSD). This experience would have annoyed our users as well, were they on Windows 10. This would have happened when they were trying to leave for the day and they would have been annoyed because they weren't told that it would happen.

I have a Chromebook, and, as you said, I couldn't tell you anything about updates. There is no "Getting Chrome OS ready for updates..." screen.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

The idea of updates in Windows 10 is to be something the user never thinks about. Most people don't even see that screen since their machine reboots overnight when they're not using it to install the updates.

In my case, windows is only ever booted for a gaming session, then I either shut it down, or immediately reboot to Linux.

If I left it on and walked away and it did a reboot in my absence, I'd come back to the Linux logon screen, not Windows

I installed Windows 10 on launch. My longest Windows 10 uptime to date? probably about 3 hours

I don't leave my main rig on when I am not using it. It boots fast. There is no reason to have it on when I am not around, wasting power. that's what my home server is for I do hard shutdowns and fresh boots every time I use it too, none of that hibernation or sleep crap.

 

[Ur_Mom]

I would go even further, and say "GUI on a Server!? WHYYY????"

Server Core. No GUI needed. Just use remote tools to administer your server after initial set up.

I find it hard with Windows to do that. Linux servers I have no issue with. I came from DOS to Windows and am fine with the command line. I learned Linux stuff when doing ISP work. Windows Server, I can do with a GUI, but I find it hard to use the CLI with it. Just not much experience with it.

I HATE the tile interface on Server 2012. HATE IT! I need to remote in to do some things (restart Plex, etc.). The RSAT tools do a lot to help, but sometimes I need to connect and see that horrible interface. Fine on Windows 8 (although, now after using Win10 for a while, I'm starting to dislike it again), but not on a server. No real reason other than personal preference and opinion. So, no bashing - I just don't like it.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I find it hard with Windows to do that. Linux servers I have no issue with. I came from DOS to Windows and am fine with the command line. I learned Linux stuff when doing ISP work. Windows Server, I can do with a GUI, but I find it hard to use the CLI with it. Just not much experience with it.

I agree, the Windows shell is pretty obnoxious to use.

Every config has to use a specific command with a specific switch.

I absolutely fucking LOVE having my configurations saved in editable text files, with uncommentable example lines though. I wish 100% of all software would do this. So much more convenient (and searchable!) than a GUI dialog box or a command and a switch.

 

[CEpeep]

That is not the experience I got. If it was truly something I didn't have to think about, I wouldn't have noticed it and wouldn't have had to think about it. My laptop wasn't idle either. It was doing something - shutting down, which took considerably longer than normal (i5 5200U with SSD). This experience would have annoyed our users as well, were they on Windows 10. This would have happened when they were trying to leave for the day and they would have been annoyed because they weren't told that it would happen.

I have a Chromebook, and, as you said, I couldn't tell you anything about updates. There is no "Getting Chrome OS ready for updates..." screen.

You only had to think about it because you were trying to reboot the computer to get into a different OS, which is something 99% of users don't do.

An update notification doesn't prevent you from leaving for the day unless you are a sysadmin. Any regular person just walks out of the office and leaves for the night if they go to shut it down and it says it's updating. The updates don't require user interaction.

ChromeOS only displays the verbose text to a user that it's updating if it's in developer mode. Otherwise it turns itself on in the middle of the night, updates, and then turns itself back off, which is what your Windows 10 computer would do too if you weren't dual-booting it.