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Fury won't beat 980Ti, much less Titan

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durquavian said:
You really need to take some business classes. Try looking at the converse of what you said. Without consoles, how much money would they lose each year?

Maybe you guys should refrain from talking business when you know little of how it really works.
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Right you do?

I know for a fact AMD's chips cost 100 for the ps4 and 110 for the xbox, the BOM for the xbox is 480 ish and the PS4 is around 380ish

Yes the loss will be greater w/o consoles, reading comprehension, when someone states that consoles are going to save them, I put it into perspective.

You may think you know something, but you are making mistakes when you don't read the full conversation.

Learn how to be respectful to your fellow forum members, instead of being an ass. This conversation was going fine till you posted

And for the business not so savvy BOM is bill of materials.
 
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cageymaru said:
I was always told that consoles cost more to make than what MS, Sony, Nintendo charge. They take a loss on the machine in exchange for a larger cut from each disc sold. I think your $100 example might be slightly off. :)

Maybe I shouldn't have been so blunt, but when you've been following the computer scene since 1983 or so, and AMD since 1996 or so, and every quarter of every year you hear...

AMD is going out of business!

It gets a little stale. It gets annoying. Not because I'm some super fan of AMD. I've owned plenty of Intel, Nvidia, Ati, 3DFX, Dell, HP, Compaq, Gateway, etc. But because it's freaking annoying to hear over and over every quarter of every year. Every quarter of every year since 1996 from the rooftops they shout, "AMD is going out of business!"

And every year they release something new if it's a processor, new standard like HDMI FreeSync, Mantle, video card, etc. But every quarter they shout again, "AMD is going out of business".

Wouldn't you be annoyed after 20 years of reading the same thing? Just slightly? A little itsy, bitsy bit perturbed?
Click to expand...

I hear ya, well I think realistically if they have 5 or 6 more bad quarters, they will be screwed. Zen has to be decent for them to survive, also I think the r3xx series and fury will keep them alive till the next gen, they need one of the two core groups to do well to maintain what they have, if both do well "yeah", but that doesnt' look like it will happen.

Getting 20ish % marketshare in both GPU and CPU will not suffice, they will need 40% in one of the two markets to survive if they keep going cutting prices to stay competitive.

It isn't like back in late nineties, AMD has a big debt they have to overcome, and that will get worse, this is what is hurting them more then anything else right now.
 
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its Bill of Materials i believe..

Im sure it was just a typo, no need to be a jerk.
 
razor1 said:
Right you do?

I know for a fact AMD's chips cost 100 for the ps4 and 110 for the xbox, the BOM for the xbox is 480 ish and the PS4 is around 380ish

Yes the loss will be greater w/o consoles, reading comprehension, when someone states that consoles are going to save them, I put it into perspective.

You may think you know something, but you are making mistakes when you don't read the full conversation.

Learn how to be respectful to your fellow forum members, instead of being an ass. This conversation was going fine till you posted

And for the business not so savvy BOM is bill of materials.
Click to expand...

Actually, in point of fact, you are over simplifying the case, hence why you need to take some business courses. It is no where near as black and white as you're painting it. Technically even by your rationale the consoles ARE saving AMD. But the you seem to miss that fundamental aspect of business in all of your posts thus far. Hence my recommendation.
 
The Mac said:
your concern for our ignorance is reassuring.

:rolleyes:
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It's been fun to watch AMD fans hopelessly defend their citadel ;). Even if it mean risking fire, meltdown and bending the truth over lol. Of course all that wouldn't be possible without the participation of guys like you and YeuEmMaiMai.
 
David-Duc said:
It's been fun to watch AMD fans hopelessly defend their citadel ;). Even if it mean risking fire, meltdown and bending the truth over lol. Of course all that wouldn't be possible without the participation of guys like you and YeuEmMaiMai.
Click to expand...

uh-huh..guys like me...

lol

Guys like me have a BSEE, and an MBA. I am well versed in both the engineering, and business aspects at a high level of what is transpiring.

We dont need your pedantry.
 
Build of materials is used in construction pretty much means the same thing as Bill of materials, so please stop arguing guys.
 
The Mac said:
uh-huh..guys like me...

lol

Guys like me have a BSEE, and an MBA. I am well versed in both the engineering, and business aspects at a high level of what is transpiring.

We dont need your pedantry.
Click to expand...

So that's the reason why the US is so f*cked up in so many fields. You're not the one who's responsible for GM's ignition fiasco, are you?
 
Think the title of the thread needs to change to
The Fury is coming to beat the Titan and 980ti:D
 
durquavian said:
Actually, in point of fact, you are over simplifying the case, hence why you need to take some business courses. It is no where near as black and white as you're painting it. Technically even by your rationale the consoles ARE saving AMD. But the you seem to miss that fundamental aspect of business in all of your posts thus far. Hence my recommendation.
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I am simplifying it yes, unless you want a 100 page explanation which I'm sure you can do if you want to, I don't have the time nor interest to do it.

More simplification for you

The fundamentals of AMD's demise is pure and simple they have debt which will increase this quarter and will probably stay relatively flat to increase slightly after this quarter till Zen because the GPU division will cover,

That's going to be a 2.5 billion dollar debt or a bit more with every quarter they have to pay interest on. This is why they will stay flat profit wise. If Zen comes out and is competitive with Intel's CPU's they will go into the plus very quickly, if not its going to be another 5 years of misery. Can they sustain 5 more years with this debt, no they won't, because without Zen doing well the debt will increase, and since AMD's credit rating was slashed that too will go down more. There is no where for AMD to go this time, unless they have outside investors, and it doesn't look like anyone will invest in AMD looking back at how bad their management has been and their current track record.

They sold profitable parts of their core business (mobile) which Qaulcomm has capitalized on in under a year of buying. They have reinvested in ARM again which won't take off for another couple of years, which will not be that big of an impact for a while.

In the late nineties they never had this much debt, this debt is specific to the ATi buy out. So 10 years so far of the same debt. To curtail this they have been cutting staff and R&D, and selling off parts of none core businesses, As mentioned above. The mobile division, and ARM are now a core businesses according to AMD, without capital they still won't be able to compete not to mention they will need quite a bit of lead time for make market penetration. The ARM server market is even more cut throat then the mobile market, they will have to go up against Intel and Qualcomm which as we can see doesn't bode well, both those companies are top of what their core markets are. We have seen this with IBM which stopped competing against Intel for the most part. Power PC server market took a nose dive in the past 10 years. The entire RISC vs CISC has been over in the server market. Qualcomm will have a head start in the ARM server market, and AMD will have to fight that too.

They sold off their foundry business which actually was a big part of why they were able to sustain themselves in the late nineties and early 2000's.

Added to this with the sub prime and housing market crash Banks and Investors have been much more reluctant to give out money without a proven track record, and at this time AMD doesn't have a good track record. As much as AMD can paint a rosy picture in the near future for their core businesses they have to show it now, not just talk about it.

The only reason AMD has survived this long with losing market share in GPU's and CPU's is because they have had cash on hand once that is done, they are screwed, it their cash reserves are getting low,

Hence my recommendation, if you don't want to add to the discussion and just think that others don't know what they are talking about, don't post.......
 
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With the debt increase and cash shortfall from last quarter, don't be surprised if their creditors initiate bankruptcy proceedings to try and force a fire sale.
 
If this latest news from Guru3D is to be believed, then imho, it's starting to look REALLY bad for Fiji.

Why?

If Fiji is definitely limited to 4GB, then there's no way they can release it above the two 8GB enthusiast parts listed. So the only place it can go is the top of the 'performance' line, heavily stacked to be incredibly good value.

This is where I think we'll see Fiji, if released this quarter. AMD never talked about absolute performance regarding HBM/Fiji; their focus seems to be on cost savings/power efficiency.

I think the writing's on the wall; AMD boys are about to be MASSIVELY disappointed.

Taking it all in, I reckon we're about to see nothing but respin, and Fiji won't launch till an 8GB part is ready, which could take some time.

Am I way off here or what? :cool:
 
spine said:
If this latest news from Guru3D is to be believed, then imho, it's starting to look REALLY bad for Fiji.

Why?

If Fiji is definitely limited to 4GB, then there's no way they can release it above the two 8GB enthusiast parts listed. So the only place it can go is the top of the 'performance' line, heavily stacked to be incredibly good value.

This is where I think we'll see Fiji, if released this quarter. AMD never talked about absolute performance regarding HBM/Fiji; their focus seems to be on cost savings/power efficiency.

I think the writing's on the wall; AMD boys are about to be MASSIVELY disappointed.

Taking it all in, I reckon we're about to see nothing but respin, and Fiji won't launch till an 8GB part is ready, which could take some time.

Am I way off here or what? :cool:
Click to expand...
Yes, you are way off.
 
spine said:
If this latest news from Guru3D is to be believed, then imho, it's starting to look REALLY bad for Fiji.

Why?

If Fiji is definitely limited to 4GB, then there's no way they can release it above the two 8GB enthusiast parts listed. So the only place it can go is the top of the 'performance' line, heavily stacked to be incredibly good value.

This is where I think we'll see Fiji, if released this quarter. AMD never talked about absolute performance regarding HBM/Fiji; their focus seems to be on cost savings/power efficiency.

I think the writing's on the wall; AMD boys are about to be MASSIVELY disappointed.

Taking it all in, I reckon we're about to see nothing but respin, and Fiji won't launch till an 8GB part is ready, which could take some time.

Am I way off here or what? :cool:
Click to expand...
AMD has spent enough time talking about (and justifying) 4 GB HBM after the HBM presentation a few weeks ago... The first cards w/ HBM will be 4 GB.
Unless they changed their mind since mid-May.
 
razor1 said:
The console market is billions of dollars with the games, not the consoles themselves.

Usually consoles are sold at a loss this generation Xbox one and PS4 they make a few dollars (~20) per console, AMD isn't selling their chips at a loss to MS or Sony or Nintendo, they are making money on them now and they are still making a loss over all.

Just to juxtapose your statement wow do you have any idea of how the console market works?

AMD's CPU market share is in the low 20's? Why? Because their top end CPU doesn't even compete with a 2 year old Intel. This is why they have to drop prices, even with the price drops they still can't make a profit because they aren't selling enough. If you drop margins you have to sell more to recoup, and its not happening.

So moral of the story when it came to consoles don't drop your pants and bend over, again, its a not the smartest choice from management perspective.

The current rebrands from AMD are not good because even if they get performance to match up with nV's offerings they still have to worry about their power envelope based on that performance.

I have nothing against the rebrands, but they aren't going to look good against Maxwell 2 doesn't matter how you cut it, unless they drop prices to offset that which means they will be targeting lower brackets, and this is also bad because lower end systems will need to get better power supplies and thermal solutions..... Its a rock and a hard place.
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It is easy if there is no hardware for the console market then the user base stays stagnant without growth in this sector software developers will shun it. That means MS & Sony will make less money but the industry as a whole will not make make money......

You still do not grasp a basic concept of sales. You got to have something to sell. That the console business is not the big money maker for AMD does not matter what is that they are delivering a product the market wants. Intel doesn't have that product nor does Nvidia. And that is what matters for AMD sales on markets they have little to no opposition. These are very important even regardless of margins.
It spills over without it we wouldn't have Mantle nor DX12 nor Vulkan ...

PRIME1 said:
You can look at AMD's financial report and see they are not making any money off the consoles. It will not save them, in fact diverting resources and taking on a project with such slim margins may in fact hasten their demise.

http://ir.amd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=74093&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2036073
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They are selling chips , that is what you got to do in the business if you are not selling anything there will be no money ... Have you seen the projections for PS4 sales which supposedly will still climb and over take the PS3.
 
DejaWiz said:
Best to keep low expectations and (hopefully) be pleasantly surprised than gobble down the hype and (most certainly) be massively disappointed.
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I'm not talking about expectations regarding Fiji's performance, but rather his position that Fiji isn't going to be the enthusiast part because it has less memory than the 8GB 390X. That's wrong. Fiji is the top of the stack.
 
odditory said:
Of course they're not. Which is why Nvidia passed, once the bidding got low enough and AMD got on their hands and knees and decided to sell at break-even, in hopes they could make something back in marketing propaganda value. Almost worked, since a lot of people assumed that AMD chips in consoles would somehow translate to PC gaming, and AMD's discrete GPU's would somehow see a performance boost on multiplatform games "cuz AMD is in the consolez brah". Didn't happen.

They really believed they could win hearts and minds and AMD logos on boxes but Microsoft and Sony were like "no that's okay just give us your cheap chips and STFU."
Click to expand...

I'm still finding this sad that people actually believe this nonsense ... It revolves around the idea that people at AMD for some reason suck at math and when Sony and MS say to AMD: hey AMD you want to sell us chips that will make you no money at all even cost you. and AMD replies:YES of course..

And that some person like yourself comes down on forums and just writes it down isn't that somewhat pretentious ?

So Sherlock can you explain why the Android market took of without Nvidia logo or Intel logo to sport the vast majority of devices.

What you missed is that on consoles the development platform is a little different and it doesn't involve high level API for performance DirectX is something completely different from how games work. Even if MS uses DirectX on Xbox1 it is not the same.
 
Why does anyone think that AMD would be losing money on the APUs for consoles? For some reason, because NV is not involved, there is obviously no profit.... Because you know, AMD who has been in the business of making CPUs and now GPUs for the last 40 years has no clue what they're doing when it comes to turning a profit :p
 
Pieter3dnow said:
It is easy if there is no hardware for the console market then the user base stays stagnant without growth in this sector software developers will shun it. That means MS & Sony will make less money but the industry as a whole will not make make money......

You still do not grasp a basic concept of sales. You got to have something to sell. That the console business is not the big money maker for AMD does not matter what is that they are delivering a product the market wants. Intel doesn't have that product nor does Nvidia. And that is what matters for AMD sales on markets they have little to no opposition. These are very important even regardless of margins.
It spills over without it we wouldn't have Mantle nor DX12 nor Vulkan ...



They are selling chips , that is what you got to do in the business if you are not selling anything there will be no money ... Have you seen the projections for PS4 sales which supposedly will still climb and over take the PS3.
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Oh man don't even go there, strawman arguement, you aren't telling me anything, PS4 sales are around 12 million a year , I already figured that into the 100 million a year for AMD ;).

reply to that first

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1041653295&postcount=295

I will tell you right now many analysts of stated that consoles are good but not enough to keep AMD afloat, a quick google search will tell you that. many of them stated consoles are a small market for AMD as well, which is true compared to the PC desktop /notebook GPU and CPU sales.

Your billion dollar console market is actually around 500 million profit for just the hardware. As I stated if you want a billion dollar console market you have to add the games in, and AMD isn't part of that.

The reason why AMD has cash in hand right now is because they have been selling pieces of their business, problem is there really is no more to sell, and they have huge debt, and cash in hand they they got is getting tight again.
 
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Digital Viper-X- said:
Why does anyone think that AMD would be losing money on the APUs for consoles? For some reason, because NV is not involved, there is obviously no profit.... Because you know, AMD who has been in the business of making CPUs and now GPUs for the last 40 years has no clue what they're doing when it comes to turning a profit :p
Click to expand...



I think you guys just skim over comments or something because no one stated that.
 
razor1 said:
I think you guys just skim over comments or something because no one stated that.
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Don't know if you have prime1 blocked or not... here is a quote form him

You can look at AMD's financial report and see they are not making any money off the consoles. It will not save them, in fact diverting resources and taking on a project with such slim margins may in fact hasten their demise.

http://ir.amd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=74093&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2036073
Click to expand...
 
filip said:
Don't know if you have prime1 blocked or not... here is a quote form him
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oh yeah, well diversifying, in essence they didn't diversify much they are making around 30% of total net profits now from other than CPU's and GPU's vs. 5% in the past, but that's cause CPU's and GPU's have dropped so much.

Now stating that, all that isn't good news actually its down right bad news, but AMD as a whole has to get things together, they have been slow on releasing new tech which is why they have lost marketshare on the GPU side, but on the CPU side where marketshare isn't a volatile on a per quarter basis, due to the large lead times for development, they just need better tech.
 
filip said:
Don't know if you have prime1 blocked or not... here is a quote form him
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I'm pretty much the only one posting actual facts. Also if you read the report they place part of the blame for their losses on consoles.

primarily due to lower game console royalties
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Operating loss of $137 million, compared to an operating loss of $330 million for the prior quarter,
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So the last 2 quarters they lost nearly half a billion.

So unless someone can show me how much AMD makes in profit on each console chip and how that will be enough to offset that kind of overall loss, I rest my case.
 
razor1 said:
I think you guys just skim over comments or something because no one stated that.
Click to expand...

filip said:
Don't know if you have prime1 blocked or not... here is a quote form him
Click to expand...

Prime1 just quotes random articles stating to prove his/her point, hoping people won't actually read them.

Nowhere in there, does it say that AMD is losing money or not making money from consoles.

All they mention in regards to consoles, is that they made more in Q4 2014 from Console royalties, than they did in Q1 2015.
 
Pieter3dnow said:
I'm still finding this sad that people actually believe this nonsense ... It revolves around the idea that people at AMD for some reason suck at math and when Sony and MS say to AMD: hey AMD you want to sell us chips that will make you no money at all even cost you. and AMD replies:YES of course..
Click to expand...

They're clearly not making tons of money off consoles, but due to retarded agreements they make wtih GloFo they might be losing money. Eg they get consoles, make a horrible take-or-pay agreement with GloFo expecting them build all the chips, fuck something up and end up having to pay TSMC to build the chips and then still pay GloFo.

Here was end of 2013, I believe in beginning of 2014 they ended up paying out a couple hundred million fo their fuck up:
http://blogs.barrons.com/techtrader...eal-may-spell-inventory-build-says-bernstein/

And BTW they didn't seem to learn their lession, 2015:
Merrill Lynch sees AMD’s new $1 billion wafer supply agreement (take or pay) with GlobalFoundries looking unlikely to be fulfilled, given only $161 million was used in the first quarter and that second quarter sales are likely to decline. AMD does plan to add $100 million of console inventory in the second quarter, but that just pulls forward expected second half inventory builds.
Click to expand...

How does this make sense? Maybe if they weren't throwing money away they wouldn't have had to cut R&D 25% in the past year. Engineers are not the problem at AMD.
 
bexamous said:
They're clearly not making tons of money off consoles, but due to retarded agreements they make wtih GloFo they might be losing money. Eg they get consoles, make a horrible take-or-pay agreement with GloFo expecting them build all the chips, fuck something up and end up having to pay TSMC to build the chips and then still pay GloFo.

Here was end of 2013, I believe in beginning of 2014 they ended up paying out a couple hundred million fo their fuck up:
http://blogs.barrons.com/techtrader...eal-may-spell-inventory-build-says-bernstein/

And BTW they didn't seem to learn their lession, 2015:


How does this make sense? Maybe if they weren't throwing money away they wouldn't have had to cut R&D 25% in the past year. Engineers are not the problem at AMD.
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So they did at least $100mil in consoles in Q2, are ramping production on "Godavari," ramping production on Carrizo and Carrizo-L, likely moving a majority of their GPU stack as well, with most ramping in Q2. I'm not seeing a problem...
If they used $161 on the pre-runs for new products they are ramping in Q2, then you would expect a ~$300mil minimum in Q2/Q3...
 
razor1 said:
Oh man don't even go there, strawman arguement, you aren't telling me anything, PS4 sales are around 12 million a year , I already figured that into the 100 million a year for AMD ;).
Click to expand...
You realize that there have been thousands on this webboard saying the same thing whenever AMD did something and pulled the same arguments as you did now ?
reply to that first

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1041653295&postcount=295
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NO!
I will tell you right now many analysts of stated that consoles are good but not enough to keep AMD afloat, a quick google search will tell you that. many of them stated consoles are a small market for AMD as well, which is true compared to the PC desktop /notebook GPU and CPU sales.

Your billion dollar console market is actually around 500 million profit for just the hardware. As I stated if you want a billion dollar console market you have to add the games in, and AMD isn't part of that.

The reason why AMD has cash in hand right now is because they have been selling pieces of their business, problem is there really is no more to sell, and they have huge debt, and cash in hand they they got is getting tight again.
Click to expand...
You base something on what "many" analyst has stated. Now figure this one out Microsoft and Sony both invest into AMD for their console what business will throw money at something that is going to go bankrupt.

Their business is selling consoles making money on selling games their industry is so big that if they have no new hardware and no more growth it will shut down.

AMD has a big part in it your argument is that AMD does not get all the profits from this market you repeatedly claim. What I am saying is that the console industry can not make money without AMD perioid (that is software and hardware)
You ever heard of killing the goose that lays the golden egg?

And you can get all the numbers you can quote all the analysts but most if not all know a bit from a byte. Most of their positions on their calls are related the the money in their firms and strategic partners or outright paid for reports.
 
Pieter3dnow said:
You realize that there have been thousands on this webboard saying the same thing whenever AMD did something and pulled the same arguments as you did now ?

NO!

You base something on what "many" analyst has stated. Now figure this one out Microsoft and Sony both invest into AMD for their console what business will throw money at something that is going to go bankrupt.

Their business is selling consoles making money on selling games their industry is so big that if they have no new hardware and no more growth it will shut down.

AMD has a big part in it your argument is that AMD does not get all the profits from this market you repeatedly claim. What I am saying is that the console industry can not make money without AMD perioid (that is software and hardware)
You ever heard of killing the goose that lays the golden egg?

And you can get all the numbers you can quote all the analysts but most if not all know a bit from a byte. Most of their positions on their calls are related the the money in their firms and strategic partners or outright paid for reports.
Click to expand...


Dude MS and Sony and Nintendo never invested in AMD, AMD gets royalties from the sale of the console MS and Sony haven't given AMD anything upfront, AMD has put up all the risk on their shoulders when it comes to the APU of these consoles, where actually MS, Sony and Nintendo should share some of that risk to or if not all of it, but AMD went a route of royalties which is very risky.

So you don't know what you are talking about, and yes you are now doing a starwman argument, because you have deflected the original statement you have stated and to cover that up you have added other arguments that we weren't talking about. Yes not everyone is as blind as you might think its easy to see what you have done. You would be a good politician. Fortunate for me your strawman argument is also a fallacy.

If AMD goes under I guarantee there are clauses in the MS and Sony and Nintendo contracts that give them rights to the chip in entirety if not they might actually already have the rights just that AMD is manufacturing it. They aren't stupid. I guess you might think they are.......

If AMD wasn't there MS, Sony and Nintendo would have went some where else, they don't need AMD, they can go Intel or custom make their own or nV. You have to keep in mind the CPU and GPU combo in these machines are pretty old tech anyways. what its comparable to a 7870 or so, not that great....

If you support AMD dropping their pants to get screwed by the consoles which they are as others have pointed out loosing 100's of millions because of their wafer contract, you should also acknowledge they should go down, or at the very least management should be shot.

And no I was basing everything off of AMD's financial statements and calls, I tend not to believe analysts unless numerous ones come up with the same conclusion, because all analysts have agendas for who they work for.

Edit:

And the reason why many analysts have said what they did about the console market was because in the previous quarter's financial conference call I think it was Q2 of 2014, AMD stated that one of the things that will bring them out of the hole they are in was the consoles, they used that to leverage the market. Pretty much out right lied to their shareholders.
 
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This card is an autobuy for me just because it pays homage to an ATi card. I don't even care that it's evenly matched with the Titan X, as long as it's not going to be priced at some exorbitant bullshit price like $1000.



RIP ATi :(
 
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