Star Citizen - media blowout, Chris Robert's new game

LOL @CR "This is Bullshit!"


Freelancer commercial...holy shit
 
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When do the NGS ships get pulled from our hangars (or anyone want to post shots)? I'm on travel this weekend and won't get a chance to see them until monday...

But they both look really good from the vids- pretty amazing stuff!
 
Oh- I must have misread the patch notes, I thought they had bumped up the lighting to make them visible... ;)
 
Loved the Freelancer commercial at the end! That was the first ship I bought, and will likely be my main ride in the game. :cool:
 
Flogger23m said:
To put it simply, if the game is realistic mouse controls will suck without artificial balancing. If the game can be played just as well on a mouse/keyboard then the game is simply not a simulator. Try playing a flight sim with a keyboard and mouse and see how far it gets you. Arcade style flight games actually handle better with a mouse/keyboard. And then games like BF where they don't even attempt to put effort into the flight are essentially impossible to use a HOTAS for.

If Star Citizen handles well with a mouse then it as much of a space sim as Ace Combat is a flight sim; in name only. Doesn't mean it can't be fun (big Ace Combat fan, like Strike Suit Zero ect.).
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That applies to flight sims and racing sims not so much to space sims. Flight sims and car sims the way you change your heading and orientation if very much speed sensitive, so for a mouse to work, it needs assists piled on, if you don't pile on the assists in a car racing simulator, a steering wheel is much easier to use. The same with a flight sim; roll rates, pitch rates, lift, etc are all speed dependant, so any direct mouse -> control surface input method will be very difficult to use unless there's a lot of assists (so it's mouse -> computer decides what you want -> control surface).

A space sim isn't the same, your roll/pitch/yaw rates are all independent of your speed. If you move the mouse at X speed it applies Y thrust to the manoeuvring thrusters and you roll/pitch/yaw at Z rate regardless of anything else.

That's why a good flight or racing simulator is easier to control with a wheel/joystick than a mouse unless you dumb down the kb/mouse controls to make them comparable (ie. adding a computer between the kb/mouse and the control surface to interpret what you want to do vs what you actually did).

A space flying sim, however, is the opposite. A mouse will provide finer control in pitch/yaw allowing for better aiming unless you actively gimp the mouse controls vs the joystick controls.

In a "realistic" space sim where you simply take joystick direction as thruster position, joystick displacement as thruster magnitude vs mouse movement direction as thruster position, mouse speed as thruster magnitude... I think most people would find that the kb/mouse set up is easier to fly in combat situations.
 
VulcaN said:
I fully support anyone that cant afford / hates the use of joysticks to use an alternative input method without completely sucking.

I'm arguing that joysticks are, for most people, a more immersing and fun way to control an air/space craft. I'm pointing fun at the penny pinchers that spend hundreds of dollars to be an internet spaceship baron but at the same time don't even have a basic logitech joystick; not because they don't want to pilot a ship with one but because they cant "justify the cost".

If you're not in that camp and just feel more at home using a mouse for every game, regardless of if a specific input control is developed for the genre, thats fine.

The reason most of us bought into this game to back it, was that it is being billed as a space simulator- I do not think its much to ask that the mouse controls take a backseat to getting the joystick as an input method working like butter first. I'd rather see them err on the side of a joystick being an easier and better way to control the spacecraft, THEN make sure mice work just as well (but never better than, like you said balanced) a joystick.

Right now we have a pre-alpha and I only have access to vanduul swarm, so I'm sure a lot will change. My opinion was based on right now, and right now I can beat more waves a lot faster in the swarm using a mouse than the joystick because its a lot easier to target enemies and with a large mousepad and high dpi mouse, I'm not really having much difficulty piloting the ship either.
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I prefer using keyboard, not because I can't afford a ridiculously expensive joystick, but because I have used keyboard controls for decades to play both space and flight sims. The issue with the accuracy of the mouse is entirely because of the gimbaled weapons, get rid of them for pilots or balance the weapons accordingly and mouse users cease to have an aiming advantage.
 
Glad I got to preview the deluxe hangar. Thought about ponying up the upgrade money and with the preview, I was able to see how freaking dark it is in there.
 
Blade-Runner said:
I prefer using keyboard, not because I can't afford a ridiculously expensive joystick, but because I have used keyboard controls for decades to play both space and flight sims. The issue with the accuracy of the mouse is entirely because of the gimbaled weapons, get rid of them for pilots or balance the weapons accordingly and mouse users cease to have an aiming advantage.
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1) Not all joystick setups are expensive. $35 can buy you a logitech complete with an analog throttler. I had it before and it is not bad at all.

2) The choice of control mechanism should not be what you are comfortable with, but what would make it a simulation. You are playing a space simulation game, which simulates how things would work out if you were in space in that ship you bought flying around.
Simulations try to lower the amount of arbitrary decisions when it comes to why and how a person or a device is moving/behaving, hence giving the player the option to play it with an input model that oversimplifies things is unacceptable IMO.
 
Andyk5 said:
1) Not all joystick setups are expensive. $35 can buy you a logitech complete with an analog throttler. I had it before and it is not bad at all.
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Every cheap joystick I've used has been horrible. I'd rather use a mouse than a hunk of junk with no feel to it, giant deadzones and wonky axis rates.

2) The choice of control mechanism should not be what you are comfortable with, but what would make it a simulation. You are playing a space simulation game, which simulates how things would work out if you were in space in that ship you bought flying around.
Simulations try to lower the amount of arbitrary decisions when it comes to why and how a person or a device is moving/behaving, hence giving the player the option to play it with an input model that oversimplifies things is unacceptable IMO.
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See my post above. The "flight simulation" thing doesn't really extend to space sims IMO as the reason joysticks are superior to kb/m in "realistic" flight sims is largely due to the way an aeroplane flies through the air and the way the stick connects to the control surfaces. With a space craft that takes inputs and feeds them to thrusters to pitch/roll/yaw (the rates of which are independent of the vehicle's speed) a mouse would actually be a good control method if it weren't impractical.
 
Andyk5 said:
1) Not all joystick setups are expensive. $35 can buy you a logitech complete with an analog throttler. I had it before and it is not bad at all.

2) The choice of control mechanism should not be what you are comfortable with, but what would make it a simulation. You are playing a space simulation game, which simulates how things would work out if you were in space in that ship you bought flying around.
Simulations try to lower the amount of arbitrary decisions when it comes to why and how a person or a device is moving/behaving, hence giving the player the option to play it with an input model that oversimplifies things is unacceptable IMO.
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There is a serious elitist vibe permeating across the community for this game, and I am absolutely baffled how people can come up with these arguments when most space sims, including those made by Chris Roberts, had keyboard controls which were perfectly acceptable. Next you will be telling me that those weren't real "space sims". :rolleyes:
 
fuck this game 100 bucks for a ship
what kind of pay to win bullshit is this
 
Elios said:
fuck this game 100 bucks for a ship
what kind of pay to win bullshit is this
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If you're going to call things bullshit...research first. Otherwise you just look foolish

And besides it isn't a game yet it is pre-alpha, there is no winning. And no the final game will not be $100USD, and right now to play the DFM you don't need to spend $100 anyway.
 
Andyk5 said:
2) The choice of control mechanism should not be what you are comfortable with, but what would make it a simulation. You are playing a space simulation game, which simulates how things would work out if you were in space in that ship you bought flying around.
Simulations try to lower the amount of arbitrary decisions when it comes to why and how a person or a device is moving/behaving, hence giving the player the option to play it with an input model that oversimplifies things is unacceptable IMO.
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This is quite possibly the most asinine thing I have read in this thread. This isn't Jane's Advanced Strike Fighter: Space Edition. While it has many sim elements for those who choose to use them CIG isn't going to gimp everything that isn't a Joystick when the vast majority won't be using it.
 
dR.Jester said:
Glad I got to preview the deluxe hangar. Thought about ponying up the upgrade money and with the preview, I was able to see how freaking dark it is in there.
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Agreed- I look forward to the asteroid hangar, but really miss the business class hangar. It was bright and curvy (so fresh and so clean clean). :D
 
DWolvin said:
Gah! Can't see that at work, is it just more of the Imgur pic? Great comparison btw.
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vMQtM8Z.jpg

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SithSolo1 said:
While it has many sim elements for those who choose to use them CIG isn't going to gimp everything that isn't a Joystick when the vast majority won't be using it.
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Actually they will, out of 37800+ people surveyed on the poll on RSI's website, only 21% indicated they do not plan to use a joystick at this time.

While I do not want a 30 button start-up sequence to my spaceship, some sim elements are great. I hope they don't gimp everything that isnt a joystick but I do hope they make the game so that multiple axis's + buttons offer the most control.
 
is there anyway to change joystick binds? I find the roll being set for your left and right movement awkward/backwards. Makes more sense to me to have the roll be on your joystick twist motion.
 
VulcaN said:
Actually they will, out of 37800+ people surveyed on the poll on RSI's website, only 21% indicated they do not plan to use a joystick at this time.

While I do not want a 30 button start-up sequence to my spaceship, some sim elements are great. I hope they don't gimp everything that isnt a joystick but I do hope they make the game so that multiple axis's + buttons offer the most control.
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The 37800+ people who are the most enthusiast types around to bother taking a poll of a game that isn't out for a long time. Out of the several million people who will probably play it, I'd suggest a far larger percentage won't be using a joystick.
 
Thats right, and I hope more game developers cater to the people who back games from the start and are the core enthusiasts instead of jimmy mc muffinpop who just bought the game on a steam sale.

Those kinds of people will play the game regardless. The last thing we need is more Call Of Duty's that cater to the average casual / impulse gamer.
 
VulcaN said:
Thats right, and I hope more game developers cater to the people who back games from the start and are the core enthusiasts instead of jimmy mc muffinpop who just bought the game on a steam sale.

Those kinds of people will play the game regardless. The last thing we need is more Call Of Duty's that cater to the average casual / impulse gamer.
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Any game that caters strictly to the minority subset of users isn't going to last long term irregardless of how much that subset pledged up front.
 
SithSolo1 said:
Any game that caters strictly to the minority subset of users isn't going to last long term irregardless of how much that subset pledged up front.
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And who is the "minority subset" of users?

Did DA2 cater to the minority subset of users? How about the new KOTOR game? How about the new SimCity? Then there's long-term playing and replaying....which most games these days have next to zero replayability and their servers are empty after a year.

How many people are still playing the War in the North Lord of the Rings game? How about that new "Microsoft Flight" game of Microsoft's?
 
Except that the games you mentioned don't require lots of people to keep paying to keep the games running.

It's all speculation at this point, but what is known is that once the Internet decides that something sucks it doesn't really matter whether it sucks, or whether it will stop sucking in the future because perception is reality.

For SC to be viable long term players need to pay up time and again, and for that to happen SC will need to have mass market appeal beyond those who currently financed CR's hobby.

DCS in Space won't bring that mass market appeal, arcade style combat will. Guess what SC will end up getting. Don't like it? Sell your LTI package now and walk away.
 
Semi agreed- I love teh fidelity that they are setting up in the overall world, but I don't want to need to flip switches in a checklist order to takeoff. They (RSI) will never satisfy everyone, but I hope to find the end result fun. A bit of a learning curve is expectable- since this is a unique control scheme with the actual thruster placement approximating physical movement, but let's face it- it will need some arcade like elements or it will be boring.

http://www.tested.com/science/weird/451609-what-will-space-battles-really-look/

There was a better article back in the day, but I can't find it now (I miss OMNI).
 
SithSolo1 said:
This is quite possibly the most asinine thing I have read in this thread. This isn't Jane's Advanced Strike Fighter: Space Edition. While it has many sim elements for those who choose to use them CIG isn't going to gimp everything that isn't a Joystick when the vast majority won't be using it.
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Whine all you want, I guarantee you they are never going to allow you to pin point sniper shots with your mouse while flying in perfect circles and strafing like a 20 year veteran space combat pilot, while people who are using the joystick are having trouble properly flying their ships on a straight line.

I am almost certain Christ Roberts will not allow mouse wielding 13 year old kids come troll and noob bash Joystick using immersion based players in this game. He has been adamant about sticking to simulation, immersion, and independent from corporate thought process aspects of this game.
 
Andyk5 said:
Whine all you want, I guarantee you they are never going to allow you to pin point sniper shots with your mouse while flying in perfect circles and strafing like a 20 year veteran space combat pilot, while people who are using the joystick are having trouble properly flying their ships on a straight line.

I am almost certain Christ Roberts will not allow mouse wielding 13 year old kids come troll and noob bash Joystick using immersion based players in this game. He has been adamant about sticking to simulation, immersion, and independent from corporate thought process aspects of this game.
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I agree with this. There is be control setups that will be better than others, but NOT that huge of a gap. This is alpha and there will be balance.
 
Andyk5 said:
Whine all you want, *snip*
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:rolleyes:

We currently have better control of the ship with the joystick but aiming is and will always be easier with the mouse simply because most of the guns are not fixed mounts. Gimping mouse aiming would alienate too many current and future backers so I don't see it happening.
 
SithSolo1 said:
:rolleyes:

We currently have better control of the ship with the joystick but aiming is and will always be easier with the mouse simply because most of the guns are not fixed mounts. Gimping mouse aiming would alienate too many current and future backers so I don't see it happening.
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You can snip all you want...

I am not saying mouse will be a horrible way of controlling your ship. You will be able to control and fire using mouse, but you will not be able to do everything you want to do with it. In order to maximize the potential of the ship, you are probably going to need a joystick and they are not going to simplfy a 20% right rudder, 15 degree left joystick, hat pushed forward, dynamically adjusting the throttle, to just by swiping the mouse right like other games do.
 
Andyk5 said:
You can snip all you want...

I am not saying mouse will be a horrible way of controlling your ship. You will be able to control and fire using mouse, but you will not be able to do everything you want to do with it. In order to maximize the potential of the ship, you are probably going to need a joystick and they are not going to simplfy a 20% right rudder, 15 degree left joystick, hat pushed forward, dynamically adjusting the throttle, to just by swiping the mouse right like other games do.
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Except they don't need to simplify it like that because it's a space flight sim not an atmospheric flight sim. That's kind of the annoying thing, to make a mouse worse in combat than a joystick, for a flight/race sim you do it by not simplifying the mouse controls thus making them hard, but for a space sim to make the mouse worse in combat, you have to actively gimp it.

A large part of the reason flight sims and racing sims need simplification of the kb/mouse (and if they don't then a joystick or wheel is vastly superior) has to do very much with the nature of atmospheric flight and how a car drives.

For an atmospheric aircraft, the roll/pitch/yaw rates and accelerations are dependent on the attitude and speed which are dynamically changing depending on your inputs and the yaw/pitch/roll rates will not all be the same for various reason. It's largely because of these complications that a joystick is the best control method. Compare that to a space sim where those accelerations are independent of speed and attitude and suddenly a mouse becomes a much more viable option.

Also to be "realistic", especially for aircraft that aren't overly computer controlled, the joystick is bound to the displacement of ailerons and elevators while the rudder pedals are bound to the rudder so that any reasonable mouse control system has to interpret a mouse move as some combination of joystick/rudder moves. This isn't really true of space sims though, either through a computer or simply through a tricky bunch of mechanisms the ship has to interpret joystick velocity as your desired roll/pitch/yaw acceleration and apply the appropriate thrusters and also interpret joystick displacement as roll/pitch/yaw rate and apply the appropriate thrusters. This is exactly the same as a mouse, except you interpret mouse acceleration as ship roll/pitch/yaw acceleration and mouse velocity and ship roll/pitch/yaw acceleration. So the control path: pilot input -> *stuff happens* -> ship moves is the same regardless of mouse/kb or joystick.

For a car, the optimum amount of steering for grip while turning varies with speed and you need some sort of feedback to tell you what the wheels are doing, thus a mouse is not a great input device unless it's simplified. Then the speed/feedback issue + the fact you won't always want to turn at the maximum allowable steering angle means that a KB isn't ideal either. Much the same applies to the throttle, brake and clutch. Again this doesn't really apply to a space ship, where movements are independent of speed and even if you want to use a mouse for yaw/pitch and a keyboard for roll (like most space sims I've played already do) you aren't at much of a disadvantage for the ship interpreting a button press on the keyboard as: reach max roll velocity as fast as thrusters will allow.

TL;DR... All the "realism" nuts should realise that while a flight/racing sim is better due to the inherent superiority of joystick and steering wheel respectively over a mouse, for a space sim to make the joystick better you have to actively gimp the mouse. I'm not necessarily saying they shouldn't gimp the mouse, but it's something to consider none the less for all the ultra-realism junkies.

Now that applies to combat, for general ship control like landing, manoeuvring around objects and just flying around for leisure, yeah, joysticks are going to be better because they have more axis that they have fine control over. I'm just talking about combat where to be awesome you really only need fine control over 2 axis, the 2 which allow you to get the enemy in your sights the same as any common FPS game, those are the 2 axis you control on your mouse... like most other space combat sims I've played, lol.
 
SWEEEET,, I figured out a way to enable "view yaw and pitch"

I've been screwing around with my xml controls/binds and I found v_view_pitch v_view_yaw, and bound them to my X and Y axis on my Warthog throttles mini stick axis for my finger. I had to modify the zoom-box and sensitivity in target but I can now move my view which also moves the target indicator/gimbaled guns while using the main joystick, It's not as precise as the mouse but it works.

Does anyone know if TrackIR uses x y axis? I may just go buy that and play around some more until they get the controls figured out/.
 
It looks like there is also a View Track Target, which I would assume is a just a target track view lock like in many flight sims. However it's disabled, probably since it would end up locking gimbaled guns to the target or it's just busted IDK.

The view yaw and pitch does work though, it makes hitting some of the Vanduul a bit easier like the mouse, however if you let the view set for more than a few seconds it auto centers it back, which isn't a real problem in combat since your moving it a lot.
 
If this game would support "realistic" space combat, it would have to be based on Independence War, not Wing Commander. No hard turns, changing direction of flight in a second, and just putting the aircraft flying model into space.

Independence War was lovely. Most of physics laws were introduced, and just turning the nose of the ship did nothing to alter direction of your flight, until you deccelerated properly. Give me that model of flight, and I'll be happy.
 
MorgothPl said:
If this game would support "realistic" space combat, it would have to be based on Independence War, not Wing Commander. No hard turns, changing direction of flight in a second, and just putting the aircraft flying model into space.

Independence War was lovely. Most of physics laws were introduced, and just turning the nose of the ship did nothing to alter direction of your flight, until you deccelerated properly. Give me that model of flight, and I'll be happy.
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Uh hoss...you can have that now. turn off G-SAFE and COMSTAB.
 
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