NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

[Phuncz]

The new Asus Z87-itx doesn't have an msata port

Are you sure because not so long ago it was still an unknown since we haven't seen the back. Also, the rumor is there is an mITX RoG motherboard in the pipeline, but it's still a rumor. I mention this because many RoG motherboards have mSATA/miniPCI-e at the I/O panel.

You can't say that 2 hd's (one of them being an msata) is enough for a system, and that is my opinion.

Although I respect your opinion, I think most people (not to point a finger at you !) still THINK they need hard drives inside a case, like they need an internal optical drive, sound card or power supply. The fact is, you don't need to. I'd prefer a bigger case if I need more than 2 drives in this case AND need a dedicated GPU.

With the new boards having only sata 6gbps ports, 2 drives in raid are amazing. 3 will be impressive.

I believe this is the same situation as AMD, which means all 4-6 ports will share one bus which will be the limiting factor. I believe AMD is stuck at ~1GB/s so more than 2 SSD's don't really have much speed advantage. So check this at launch before you waste money on 3-4 smaller SSD's instead of 2 bigger ones.

 

[grazina]

Are you sure because not so long ago it was still an unknown since we haven't seen the back. Also, the rumor is there is an mITX RoG motherboard in the pipeline, but it's still a rumor. I mention this because many RoG motherboards have mSATA/miniPCI-e at the I/O panel.

I've only seen mention of that rog m-itx in the other thread about the z87. Would kill for one tough. And I have no idea if the z87 will have an mpcie on the back, but I doubt since all of those "gold" series mobos from asus don't mention that.

Although I respect your opinion, I think most people (not to point a finger at you !) still THINK they need hard drives inside a case, like they need an internal optical drive, sound card or power supply. The fact is, you don't need to. I'd prefer a bigger case if I need more than 2 drives in this case AND need a dedicated GPU.

I think there were two major missteps in designing the M1(sorry Necere and wahaha360, you guys are amazing never the less)

1 - The optical drive in this day an age is pointless. If you want one you, buy one of those slim external ones and connect it when you need it or simply leave it connected. They are cheaper and easier to find that the internal ones. AND not only does he top cover look much cooler without that slot, but there is no eject button, cause it would be impossible to accommodate all the different models in the market.

2- The bracket for 3.5" hd's was another mistake in my opinion. Not only are people using more and more ssd's that come in 2.5" size, but there are great performing spacious 2.5" mechanical hd's.
This leaves me to comment one of my own posts from before because might as well go for it.

I can tell you I had an idea for adding more 2.5" drives without changing anything in the case itself, but that would require the design/creation of an additional component and for that I think it's to late. But for a few improvements this is the time.

Basically have a 2.5" bracket that would connect to that internal 2.5" mount where the psu is. It would have to be a small one, like 2cm thick, but that would give you two mounts instead of one. and this bracket would be optional in case you just wanted one hd on that spot.

On this pic you can see there is a 2.5" hd in that position and there is more than enough room for the bracket I suggested. That with the two mounts on the front would make the case have 4x2.5" mounts. I wouldn't even have given the option to people to have the ones in the bottom. Those spaces were clearly designed with a couple of fans in mind to aid cooling the gpu and/or bring some extra fresh air to the case.
Are these suggestions doable? Absolutely, I have the blueprints in my mind. And they would give much more options and value to the case. But none the less they have made an amazing job in the design.
I think both my suggestions bring something to the table. But then again it's always easy to just come up and say you should have done this would should have done that. But I don't think I suggested anything ludicrous. Even whaha360 said he was thinking the same when I mentioned the two mounts up front. So maybe he'll also see potential in having that extra 2.5" bracket.

I believe this is the same situation as AMD, which means all 4-6 ports will share one bus which will be the limiting factor. I believe AMD is stuck at ~1GB/s so more than 2 SSD's don't really have much speed advantage. So check this at launch before you waste money on 3-4 smaller SSD's instead of 2 bigger ones.

I can tell you that there no effin way I' gonna have ssd's in my case. I don't thrust them. I can tell you my plan is to have 3 Travelstar 7k1000 in raid 0 and I'm sure there won't be any bottlenecks by having three drives. If I can have and msata port to do ssd caching, even better. And yes, I will not risk my data to an ssd, but have no problem in doing it with a 3 mechanical drive raid 0.

 

[ellroy80]

I can tell you that there no effin way I' gonna have ssd's in my case. I don't thrust them. I can tell you my plan is to have 3 Travelstar 7k1000 in raid 0 and I'm sure there won't be any bottlenecks by having three drives. If I can have and msata port to do ssd caching, even better. And yes, I will not risk my data to an ssd, but have no problem in doing it with a 3 mechanical drive raid 0.

Sorry mate, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. So you'd prefer to trust your data to something with moving parts, that doesn't provide redundancy, over something that has no moving parts? I know there are problems with SSD's as well, but geez, you're trusting your data with something that's bound to fail. I hope you backup regularly (as should everyone). I'd still have an SSD as a boot drive as a minimum (with data on your RAID array), the increase in speed is unmatched. And if the SSD dies, you don't lose your personal data (which you are risking with a RAID0 setup in the first place). And the 3.5" mounts have to remain, there are A LOT of people that still use them. You'd shut out a lot of purchasers if they weren't offered.

I'm really interested to see Necere's update list. IMO, additional 2.5" mounts at the front of the case and a second perforated side panel are things that do not need to be tested with a second prototype. Additional 2.5" mounts at the front could be tested by drilling them, and the perforated side panel is, well, a no-brainer. If those are the only two changes (and I'm sure they're probably not), I'd rather see the money go toward decreasing production costs. Just MHO, it's worth what you paid for it

 

[Diverge]

I agree with ellroy80.

I have like 12+ SSD's and I've had maybe 2 fail over the last 5 years. I started off with 30GB SSD's in raid 0, when they were super expensive. I no long raid 0. It's not needed anymore. 1 SSD is all you really need, at least for me.

 

[grazina]

Sorry mate, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. So you'd prefer to trust your data to something with moving parts, that doesn't provide redundancy, over something that has no moving parts? I know there are problems with SSD's as well, but geez, you're trusting your data with something that's bound to fail. I hope you backup regularly (as should everyone). I'd still have an SSD as a boot drive as a minimum (with data on your RAID array), the increase in speed is unmatched. And if the SSD dies, you don't lose your personal data (which you are risking with a RAID0 setup in the first place).

Yes, I don't trust ssd's. For me personally, the technology is to recent, but I can tell you that there was a time when I only bought games on disc and now I'm the opposite on both the PS3 and Steam. A raid 0 array properly done can last a long time. As for back-ups, I'm double cautious. Everything is backed-up twice, and it's one of the reasons I thrust mechanical drives. Never had one fail or even a corrupted file. But there is a part of me that says - just go with 3 m500 960gb - but then besides the raid 0, I would always be thinking, when is the day i'm turning the pc and one of those 600 dollars ssd died.

And the 3.5" mounts have to remain, there are A LOT of people that still use them. You'd shut out a lot of purchasers if they weren't offered.
I'm really interested to see Necere's update list. IMO, additional 2.5" mounts at the front of the case and a second perforated side panel are things that do not need to be tested with a second prototype. Additional 2.5" mounts at the front could be tested by drilling them, and the perforated side panel is, well, a no-brainer. If those are the only two changes (and I'm sure they're probably not), I'd rather see the money go toward decreasing production costs. Just MHO, it's worth what you paid for it

No, I didn't mean remove the 3.5" bracket. I said I wouldn't have done it, but now that it's done, it's done. I would simply like to see that small 2.5" I mentioned also included. For me the 3.5" will never be used, but i'm sure it was a selling point to many, so removing it would be wrong. Also increasings the height, cause lots of people went for a case that small.
But I like options. I'm probably one of the few that does not want that optical cut out in the top panel, and with kickstarter who knows. They could make both versions available.
The right perforated side I'm all for it, even tough I won't use the psu in a reversed position.

 

[grazina]

I agree with ellroy80.

I have like 12+ SSD's and I've had maybe 2 fail over the last 5 years. I started off with 30GB SSD's in raid 0, when they were super expensive. I no long raid 0. It's not needed anymore. 1 SSD is all you really need, at least for me.

I have 11 Hd's in total including the ones for back-ups and not one ever died. They're mostly from different brands so I have a lot of confidence in mechanical drives.
Maybe 2 sets of ssd's in raid 0 which in turn are in raid 1. that I might consider.

 

[Zangmonkey]

Yes, I don't trust ssd's. For me personally, the technology is to recent, but I can tell you that there was a time when I only bought games on disc and now I'm the opposite on both the PS3 and Steam. A raid 0 array properly done can last a long time. As for back-ups, I'm double cautious. Everything is backed-up twice, and it's one of the reasons I thrust mechanical drives. Never had one fail or even a corrupted file. But there is a part of me that says - just go with 3 m500 960gb - but then besides the raid 0, I would always be thinking, when is the day i'm turning the pc and one of those 600 dollars ssd died.



No, I didn't mean remove the 3.5" bracket. I said I wouldn't have done it, but now that it's done, it's done. I would simply like to see that small 2.5" I mentioned also included. For me the 3.5" will never be used, but i'm sure it was a selling point to many, so removing it would be wrong. Also increasings the height, cause lots of people went for a case that small.
But I like options. I'm probably one of the few that does not want that optical cut out in the top panel, and with kickstarter who knows. They could make both versions available.
The right perforated side I'm all for it, even tough I won't use the psu in a reversed position.

I find it incredibly ironic that you don't trust SSD's (a well proven, established and solid-state technology now) but you're advocating the use of a suicide RAID.

Don't trust SSD's? Fine, put two of them in a RAID1... or even three of them!

 

[grazina]

I find it incredibly ironic that you don't trust SSD's (a well proven, established and solid-state technology now) but you're advocating the use of a suicide RAID.

Don't trust SSD's? Fine, put two of them in a RAID1... or even three of them!

My thing is that a raid 0 gone wrong I can always recover cause I do back-up of everything everyday. SSD are a proven technology but I still think it's too soon for me to jump on that band wagon. When they brick, they brick for good. But like i said in my post above I would consider a raid 1+0 using 4 m500 960gb. don't think going from 2 ssd to 3 ssd in raid 0 wil make all that difference considering the m500 is already a speed devil.
This is why I like these type of forums, you get to meet guys like yourselves that bring a fresh perspective considering these type of solutions. I would still need to fit 4 ssd's in the M1.

 

[*Daedalus]

I can tell you that there no effin way I' gonna have ssd's in my case. I don't thrust them. I can tell you my plan is to have 3 Travelstar 7k1000 in raid 0 and I'm sure there won't be any bottlenecks by having three drives. If I can have and msata port to do ssd caching, even better. And yes, I will not risk my data to an ssd, but have no problem in doing it with a 3 mechanical drive raid 0.

That is... I don't want to get banned, so I won't tell you what that is, I'll just tell you I disagree.

No only are you asserting that HDDs are more reliable than SSDs by that philosophy (they're not), but you're asserting that they're at minimum, three times as reliable, which is complete and utter lunacy. I've used more HDDs than I can count. Some have died, some are still going ~8 years later. I've used 6 SSDs, and all of them are still going. This includes one very early from the "SSDs are unstable and prone to random screw-ups" days, and it's still fine, four years on.

Then you contradict yourself with the above post, saying that the only reason you trust HDDs is because you keep your stuff backed up. ... Meaning you don't trust them, you trust in redundancy, which is exactly the right attitude. Why not use SSDs, and back them up to HDDs? That's what I (and hopefully many others) do.

 

[grazina]

Then you contradict yourself with the above post, saying that the only reason you trust HDDs is because you keep your stuff backed up.

What I meant was that, yes I back-up everything because you never know what gonna happens - power loss, a psu fail and a hd might become corrupted - but in all these years of doing that no hd ever failed, either internal or external. And I I've never experienced a hard drive corruption that I was not responsible. So I wouldn't say I'm contradicting, I prefer thinking that some of you planted a seed on my mind about ssd's. But like I said before, my real scare with ssd's is that when they brick they're gone for good. and it's a very expensive brick.

 

[cowsgomoo]

I think you guys should look at RMA rates of HDD vs SSD instead of anecdotal evidence. I know there's a site that publish that but I forgot the name of.

Edit: found it:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=35031263
It means choosing the right brand actually. lol OCZ.

 

[illli]

i was about to mention the above ^
OCZ ssds are junk. well a lot of stuff ocz sells is junk in my opinion. i've done enough research when i bought ssds to know which to avoid, and which are a lot more reliable.

but shouldn't all this discussion about the merits of mechanical vs ssd be in another topic? seems like it should be a topic all unto itself. it is kind of starting to get annoying, every time i click on this topic, thinking there will be some new and exciting info about the case.. nope. nothing but 2 pages of hd talk

 

[vipz]

I just noticed in a couple pictures (see example below) that the PSU cable seems to press badly against the ODD. It looks like it could cause damage to any disc inserted.

 

[grazina]

i was about to mention the above ^
OCZ ssds are junk. well a lot of stuff ocz sells is junk in my opinion. i've done enough research when i bought ssds to know which to avoid, and which are a lot more reliable.

but shouldn't all this discussion about the merits of mechanical vs ssd be in another topic? seems like it should be a topic all unto itself. it is kind of starting to get annoying, every time i click on this topic, thinking there will be some new and exciting info about the case.. nope. nothing but 2 pages of hd talk

Sorry for that. I take a great share of the blame for that. In my defense it all started when I tried to justify why I want 2 2.5" mounts in the front.

I just noticed in a couple pictures (see example below) that the PSU cable seems to press badly against the ODD. It looks like it could cause damage to any disc inserted.

WOW. You have an amazing eye for detail. I had seen that but thought it was simply a bad picture. But you're right, the cable is even compressing part of the entry slot. Guess deep inside I always knew why I wasn't going to use an optical with this case.

 

[grazina]

I think you guys should look at RMA rates of HDD vs SSD instead of anecdotal evidence. I know there's a site that publish that but I forgot the name of.

Edit: found it:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=35031263
It means choosing the right brand actually. lol OCZ.

Thanks. Gonna see if i can can a degree in ssd.

Update: Just read it. didn't mean anything. the ratio of mechanical drives versus ssd's out there must be huge and I don't think they took that into consideration.

 

[Zangmonkey]

WOW. You have an amazing eye for detail. I had seen that but thought it was simply a bad picture. But you're right, the cable is even compressing part of the entry slot. Guess deep inside I always knew why I wasn't going to use an optical with this case.

Simply use a power cable that points in another direction.

 

[grazina]

Simply use a power cable that points in another direction.

You should have replied to the guy I was replying to(vipz). I never intended to use an optical drive. don't have a use for them.
But it's great he pointed this out, cause Necere and wahaha360 might be able to arrange for the case to come with a cable that has a different orientation.

 

[Diverge]

i was about to mention the above ^
OCZ ssds are junk. well a lot of stuff ocz sells is junk in my opinion. i've done enough research when i bought ssds to know which to avoid, and which are a lot more reliable.

but shouldn't all this discussion about the merits of mechanical vs ssd be in another topic? seems like it should be a topic all unto itself. it is kind of starting to get annoying, every time i click on this topic, thinking there will be some new and exciting info about the case.. nope. nothing but 2 pages of hd talk

While I don't want to turn this into a debate about SSD's. And while I don't have any brand bias. I have owned OCZ ssds, along with samsung, intel, adata, crucial, mushkin, and others's i'm probably forgetting. Anyway, early in the SSD business OCZ was like the only player as opposed to expensive Intel SSD's. Their popularity probably has a lot to do with returns.

edit: back then they were also using the most cutting edge controllers with the best performance. That were buggy.

 

[grazina]

I know this will interest some of you guys that will be looking for a dtx board, since this case will take them. This is the new ECS H87H3-M4. It's from the deluxe series, and the pro mobo's are still tba so maybe we'll see a dtx z87 like a lot of you guys wanted.

 

[ellroy80]

Cable issue becomes irrelevant if the PSU is turned around 180 degrees to suck cool air in from the outside, as suggested by Necere.

 

[grazina]

Cable issue becomes irrelevant if the PSU is turned around 180 degrees to suck cool air in from the outside, as suggested by Necere.

What about everyone else that wants the psu to draw air from inside the case because they have a fan pointing towards it?
Your solution is not really a solution and at the time of the design there was no talk about having the right side panel as a ventilation point. This is another thing the boys will have to look into when they do those minor improvements.

 

[ellroy80]

What about everyone else that wants the psu to draw air from inside the case because they have a fan pointing towards it?
Your solution is not really a solution and at the time of the design there was no talk about having the right side panel as a ventilation point. This is another thing the boys will have to look into when they do those minor improvements.

Where do you think cooler air, which will be beneficial to the PSU, is going to come from? Directly from outside the case, drawn through a ventilated right side panel, or from the left hand side of the case, where the air is blown across internal components?

 

[crABtoad]

I know this will interest some of you guys that will be looking for a dtx board, since this case will take them. This is the new ECS H87H3-M4. It's from the deluxe series, and the pro mobo's are still tba so maybe we'll see a dtx z87 like a lot of you guys wanted.

I would prefer a Z-series chipset but this has definitely piqued my interest. I'd love to get a kickass DTX board.

 

[Phuncz]

I know this will interest some of you guys that will be looking for a dtx board, since this case will take them. This is the new ECS H87H3-M4. It's from the deluxe series, and the pro mobo's are still tba so maybe we'll see a dtx z87 like a lot of you guys wanted.

Now that has my attention. I see:
- 4 SATA, which seems more than enough for this case. I don't know why 2 are white and 2 are black, I thought H87 and Z87 would have 6 SATA-600 ports supported.
- unused connector solder pads next to the DisplayPort or HDMI-port, which means it's missing one of those.
- only 4 external USB connectors. WTF ? I don't need PS/2 !

I'm not sold on this one, let's hope there is a Z87 version with more ports.

 

[Zangmonkey]

WTF ? I don't need PS/2 !

My IBM Model M uses PS2 (Though I'd replace it if needed)

 

[Jomanscool2]

My IBM Model M uses PS2 (Though I'd replace it if needed)

As do many mechanical keyboards in order to achieve NKRO.

 

[Necere]

It's also suddenly so quiet about the 20mm height increase and the perforated right panel. Is it already decided by you, the developers, or will there still be a voting round ?

I have basically concluded from testing that a fan on top isn't going to do much. The heat issues, such as they are, have to do with the nature of aluminum as a metal that readily picks up and conducts heat, and with the location of the exhaust vents. The case panels get warm - in particular with a high power video card that dumps all the heat in the case. A top fan won't help the situation; hot air will still be moving through the top panel, heating it up in the process. If you have the fans set to exhaust through the side panel, that will heat up. I even tried bottom exhaust. In every case, the component temps were fine, but the case panel temps ranged from moderately warm to unpleasantly hot. Not 'burn your skin' hot, mind, but hot enough to not want to touch it for extended periods. The worst in that regard was the bottom exhaust; most of the case was only lukewarm, but the whole bottom of the chassis and area around the front I/O... hot. Best bet is to stick with blower-style and/or less-than top-of-the-range GPUs. Just because you *can* fit a GTX690 (or overclocked HD7970) doesn't mean you *should*. But again, it's mostly a superficial/tactile issue, as the component temps were reasonable.

So the height increase would only be useful for modular ATX PSU support - in other words, not enough to justify it. The vented right side panel, on the other hand, is something I think is worth doing.

I know w360 said there *will* be polls about this and that, but he has a habit of making definitive-sounding statements without running them by me first. I was personally hesitant to bring up the possible height increase until I had done some testing to determine if it would be justified thermally. No sense in getting people riled up if I ultimately decide against it. But we talk about these things between us, in a tentative way, and he sometimes decides it's something he should tell the forum about in a very decisive manner. What can you do.

Just for everyone's information, since there seems to be a slight lack of clarity about our roles: I'm doing all the design and testing of the prototype. We live on opposite coasts, and we only have one prototype, which has been in my possession exclusively. w360's role is more towards the planning and operational end of the project, less the design and engineering, which he has less experience with. I'm not exactly experienced with designing things for production, either, though, so it's fair to say it's been a bit of a learning experience for me as well.

I always assumed you guys would be getting a second prototype to weed out some aspects.

It was always the plan to get the first prototype, make changes, then get a second prototype/preproduction model. But the purpose of the second case is not evaluation and further fine-tuning, but as a representative sample for photos, possible website reviews, and to ultimately find a home with our $2k backer. I think we're probably shipping it straight out for photos, then on from there. I won't personally ever see it. Which does mean it's important that I get the changes right, *and* express them clearly to Lian Li. Unfortunately, the first prototype had some oversights on their part that didn't inspire a lot of confidence (including one that required a Dremel to fix). Nevertheless, it was 95% usable as it came (barring that one major error, which prevented PCI cards seating properly), and the changes I'm looking at are fairly minor.

So, two prototypes at an estimate 2000 dollars. We already have one, and considering the campaign achieved nearly 9000 dollars I wouldn't see a problem in having a second prototype with some revisions, not only because of all the money achieved, but because it was part of the original project. And even with some of the budget spent on hardware to test, there must be a huge sum that can be allocated to the second prototype.

Well, keep in mind that between Indiegogo and various payment processor fees, we ended up with less than $8k. We also opted to pay for the tooling for the front I/O ports ($1200), so that plus the prototype cost ($1500) and shipping to the US already put us at close to $3k. We were able to get more testing hardware though, but even scrounging for deals and buying used, it adds up. All told I believe we have maybe $3k left, which should be enough to carry us through, but not a lot of room for errors. A second prototype/preproduction case will be less than the first, though I'm not sure of the exact cost with the changes factored in.

My thing is that there were lots of testings which we are all grateful, but no revisions so far. I think adding a second 2.5" mounting in the front is something that adds value to the case. Use two fans on the bottom, and a full atx psu like you can and you have one mounting on the front, and that's assuming you won't use the optical drive. Use those same two fans on the bottom and two in the side panel with the sfx psu and you have one 2.5" mounting if you use the optical drive. Now, if you have those two in the front you can go for raid, as I'm sure any serious gamer won't use an optical drive. And yes, I'm aware you have an 3.5" removable caddy, but use a cooler like the noctua NH-C14 and you can't mount it.
So a case like this to have such limited 2.5" mounting capability, I am worried I don't have more options.

Actually, you still have room for one 2.5" drive mounted to the inside front with an ATX PSU, besides the one you can put in place of the ODD. So you can have all your fans, oversized PSU, and still have a pair of 2.5" drives, so long as you don't also want the optical drive. And with the optical, well, you've still got that one 2.5" mount. I don't expect many people will be doing that, though.

I also dream about another bigger but still smaller than the Ncase and the M3 that's just mITX, mSATA, swiftech H220, and a evga hydro titan, also maybe a slim optical drive. As for my dream cases, the slim optical drive will only be added to the design if there is room. Basically, I will not make room except for the essentials. I do believe that the ncase is almost as perfect as it gets in any case or prototype I've seen.

I don't know man, cables and W/C tubing are already a tight fit in our case. I think you'd be hard-pressed to go appreciably smaller. You could chop the bottom slot off, sure, but that's valuable cable space.

I'm interested to know the list of changes planned for the production model as compared to the prototype model.

I'm really interested to see Necere's update list.

It's mostly minor things - move a clip here, change a screw there, add a radius on this corner, modify a cut... add some PCI bracket tab slots *cough*. Stuff like that.

I think there were two major missteps in designing the M1(sorry Necere and wahaha360, you guys are amazing never the less)

1 - The optical drive in this day an age is pointless. If you want one you, buy one of those slim external ones and connect it when you need it or simply leave it connected. They are cheaper and easier to find that the internal ones. AND not only does he top cover look much cooler without that slot, but there is no eject button, cause it would be impossible to accommodate all the different models in the market.

We went over this (for quite a few pages). It was requested, it didn't increase the size, and it was relatively straightforward to implement. There was a poll sent to backers, 60%+ were in favor. The bracket is removable, so the only real downside is the slot on the top panel. Personally I was indifferent, but enough people wanted the option to be there, so I included it.

2- The bracket for 3.5" hd's was another mistake in my opinion. Not only are people using more and more ssd's that come in 2.5" size, but there are great performing spacious 2.5" mechanical hd's.

You know it's removable, right? Are you objecting to having an extra part that you have no use for, or something? I'm not sure I understand your criticism.

This leaves me to comment one of my own posts from before because might as well go for it.

Basically have a 2.5" bracket that would connect to that internal 2.5" mount where the psu is. It would have to be a small one, like 2cm thick, but that would give you two mounts instead of one. and this bracket would be optional in case you just wanted one hd on that spot.
...
On this pic you can see there is a 2.5" hd in that position and there is more than enough room for the bracket I suggested.

So, something like this?





It's been there all along. Take a close look at the renders with the 2.5" in the inside front. Granted, I haven't drawn much attention to these simple brackets (partly because I wanted to make sure they worked in reality - which they do), but they're there.

The only issue is the cables (as usual). The ST45SF-G comes with the typical SATA power cables that exit the sides of the connector; with the drives so close together, it doesn't leave enough room:



There are ways around that, of course: adapters with straight cable connectors, maybe a (very) short version of this mod. Or do what I did, flip one of the drives so the connectors aren't next to eachother. Face-to-face (these drives are only 7mm thick, don't think this works with thicker ones):



Or opposite ends (which ought to work with 9.5mm drives):



You probably skipped it in the testing notes, but I did specify that I had two 2.5" drives on the inside front mount. Here they are mounted:



Or:



You can use it to mount two drives on the case floor mount as well. But before you ask, no, there's not enough space for two behind the front panel:



You could probably get these 7mm drives stacked in front without the bracket (using adhesive/velcro tape or something), but 9.5mm drives are out of the question (though you could just put them side-by-side if you used tape).

Actually, looking at these brackets again, I just thought of a minor redesign that should allow the power connectors to not conflict when the drives are oriented the same way.

The reason 2x 2.5" drives on the outside front (in place of the ODD) is worth considering still is that there are certain configurations that will prevent use of the inside front 2.5"; namely, a double rad with the ports at the front.

I just noticed in a couple pictures (see example below) that the PSU cable seems to press badly against the ODD. It looks like it could cause damage to any disc inserted.

It's not "badly," though it is pressing against it. The warping you see on the ODD bezel actually came that way (it was a cheap ebay auction pulled from a laptop). The bezel plastic is very thin there and the drive casing is slightly bent which causes it to distort like that:





Indeed, I was a bit worried when I got it that people would see that and think it was the cable causing it. It's not.

The AC cable pressing against the drive was a concern of mine, actually, and one of the first things I checked. I knew the orientation of the cable on the plug and the inlet location on the ST45SF-G put it very close to the front panel, but I didn't know how much of a problem it would be, since the exact dimensions and flexibility of the cable were things I could only guess at. The cutout on the top of the front panel was actually put in to allow a bit of room in case the cable needed it, and it does stick through when no ODD is installed:



Worst case, it would prevent installation of an ODD at all. Fortunately, that turned out not to be the case, and the cable has enough room to bend while only putting light pressure on the top of the drive:



The drive read discs fine during my testing.

Simply use a power cable that points in another direction.

But it's great he pointed this out, cause Necere and wahaha360 might be able to arrange for the case to come with a cable that has a different orientation.

I should mention that this particular low profile plug is not readily available - Lian Li had to source a sample for us. All the other available angle plugs are significantly taller and would've precluded an ATX PSU being an option at all (and made cables that much more crowded for SFX). AFAIK, the plug only comes in this orientation, so it's not as simple as just getting another one with a different angle. It would probably need to be a custom molding with MOQ and so forth - out of scope for a small run like we're doing. We also have to standardize on a particular plug in any case, and different angled plugs cause other issues with other PSUs. There's no 'one size fits all,' unfortunately.

 

[Diverge]

Just an observation, if you do rotate the SFX supply so it pulls air from the side panel, then the AC plug won't be an issue - not that it really is.

 

[imode]

Thanks for all the replies Necere. You and W360 have gone above and beyond to get questions answered. I can't wait till the kickstarter page is up. Keep the pics coming as well. Still waiting for that coke can size comparison

 

[Phuncz]

Thank you Necere for all the info, it's a big help for understanding all the choices you've made and will make !

With that last picture you can see the cable doesn't press on the bent piece of the ODD drive, so it will probably not be a problem.

I actually didn't know about the dual 2,5" disks mounted next to the PSU, either. I think many of us will have missed that so I'd recommend to certainly make a picture of that when "campaigning".

 

[cowsgomoo]

I'm all for venting the right side panel.

 

[grazina]

Unfortunately, the first prototype had some oversights on their part that didn't inspire a lot of confidence (including one that required a Dremel to fix). Nevertheless, it was 95% usable as it came (barring that one major error, which prevented PCI cards seating properly), and the changes I'm looking at are fairly minor.

The very reason I thought a second prototype was needed. This pci issue left me worried allot. If they make the same mistake again you're gonna have a lot of people going over the hill.

So, something like this?





It's been there all along. Take a close look at the renders with the 2.5" in the inside front. Granted, I haven't drawn much attention to these simple brackets (partly because I wanted to make sure they worked in reality - which they do), but they're there.

I actually didn't know about the dual 2,5" disks mounted next to the PSU, either. I think many of us will have missed that so I'd recommend to certainly make a picture of that when "campaigning".

I also had never seen that little 2.5" bracket for the inside 2.5" mount. That was genius. And I'm very happy it's included. Hope it comes with at least two sets. Would still like the front to be able to have two 2.5". If you center the 2.5" mounting, won't you be able to close the lid in the front if you keep it to 7mm hd's? The problem in this pic appears to be the curvature of the lid, so if it closes you'll simply have to center the mounting and include a third set of those brackets. Can you check that? Should be fairly simple to confirm. Also, to me it appears that the set of rubbers screws you're using adds bulk to the width of two ssd in the front and since they don't vibrate you might be able to use some sort of screw that's not as thick. But I think that moving the mounts a little bit more to the center would solve this issue.

If not, maybe the solution lies in including kinda the same brackets you have for the inside, but at an 90º angle so you can have the hd and simply screw it to the front. Something like this, but cut to the lenght of an 2.5" hd.

but you would still need no have holes cut in the right position, to have one above the other. Let's hope centering the 2.5" mount in the front allows you to close the lid and problem solved.
Yes, you're right, there's gonna be scenarios where only in the front can you mount an hd, and keeping it to only one in the entire case seems rather restrictive.
As for cable issues, there are lots of brands available, so this issue with the cables is a not existing one.

You know it's removable, right? Are you objecting to having an extra part that you have no use for, or something?

Yes, I know the 3.5" bracket is removable, but I meant that it's a cost I don't think is justified.
If you're using full atx psu you can't use it, if it sfx psu you have the 2.5" brackets, and now that I've seen them, they must be pretty cheap to make. I meant that it was a cost that I think could have been avoided, because for me it's pointless, but you are catering for a much larger audience, so I understand adding options (like having the odd and that cut out that I hate - always coming back to this)

I'm not sure I understand your criticism.

Criticism? Not in a million years. You've been amazing cause I've been bombarding you with requests for pictures and little suggestions and you've complied with every single one. I simply wouldn't have given people that choice.

 

[Phuncz]

I don't think the 3,5" bracket increases the case's price too much and if a lot of people are happy with it, I can see why they decided to do this.

IMHO, I still think that a 3,5" HDD doesn't have any place to be inside this case, because it takes too much room when you can have 1TB or 2TB drives in 2,5" or just put your 3,5" disks in a NAS or externally (eSATA perhaps).

But for many people who will use it, it is probably a stop-gap solution, because those 2,5" 2TB drives are very expensive, about the same price as a 3,5" 4TB drive.

Since it will not really decrease costs dramatically, I think the added flexibility outweighs the negative.

 

[CHANG3D]

I don't know man, cables and W/C tubing are already a tight fit in our case. I think you'd be hard-pressed to go appreciably smaller. You could chop the bottom slot off, sure, but that's valuable cable space.

I know it is not going to be easy, but you mean that I can't even dream of a even smaller case than a NCase for this? Dream killer! XD

I was just saying people argue for it to be bigger, where as there also people like me who rather it be smaller. So it balances off.

Keep up with the good work dude.

 

[Phuncz]

The problem is not making the case smaller. The problem is the people trying to fit a high-end gaming computer inside the case and expect it to perform equally.

 

[cowsgomoo]

Yes, I know the 3.5" bracket is removable, but I meant that it's a cost I don't think is justified.

I'm going to use only 3.5" hard disks, so I don't think 2.5" inch brackets are needed at all and they'll only add to my cost. I would like to see them removed.

I was joking.

 

[grazina]

I'm going to use only 3.5" hard disks, so I don't think 2.5" inch brackets are needed at all and they'll only add to my cost. I would like to see them removed.

I was joking.

My point being the majority will be using 2.5" drives. everybody seems hellbent on using ssd's. and with the 3.5" bracket you can't use a good air cooler like the NH-C14.
I won't use the optical drive and would like a no cut out top panel. Probably won't be getting one, unless they make the kickstarter campaign flexible enough. But my point is, I don't believe everybody that voted yes on having the optical drive will use one. They just like the option. And I understand that. Kinda like the 3.5" bracket is an option that's nice to have even if you don't use it. But if they had voted, I'm quite sure that would have been removed.

 

[ellroy80]

Necere and w360, I think you have well managed a great project and designed a truly awesome case. Clearly, it has been designed to accomodate as many users as possible while keeping within the design goals, a smart idea to ensure its success. I see so many more options but they wouldn't be for everyone. After all, you can't please everyone. Furthermore, they are things that I would be happy to do and could easily be done myself with a drill/dremel. Anyway, just wanted to say good job so far, keep up the good work, and I'm eager to see this thing get out the door via a successful kickstarter campaign.

Just one question on the PSU - are you still considering turning it 180 degrees to suck air in from the outside of the case (assuming you are going to ventilate the right side panel, which it sounds like you are)? Or, is it possible to mount it turned 180 degrees with the current bracket? Or (and I really hate to ask this..... sorry in advance!!!) is it possible to redesign the bracket so that the PSU could be mounted in either direction??

 

[ellroy80]

My point being the majority will be using 2.5" drives. everybody seems hellbent on using ssd's.

Really?? Where's your data to back this up? What about those that use an SSD as a boot drive and a 3.5" drive for storage? For the same capacity, 3.5" drives are cheaper after all.

with the 3.5" bracket you can't use a good air cooler like the NH-C14.

It means you can't use the C14. Doesn't mean you can't use a good air cooler

I won't use the optical drive and would like a no cut out top panel. Probably won't be getting one, unless they make the kickstarter campaign flexible enough. But my point is, I don't believe everybody that voted yes on having the optical drive will use one. They just like the option. And I understand that. Kinda like the 3.5" bracket is an option that's nice to have even if you don't use it. But if they had voted, I'm quite sure that would have been removed.

Again, they voted on optical drive cutout and the majority of potential buyers said they wanted one. FWIW I agree with you on this, I'd prefer no cutout and use an external drive if I needed to use a disk. However, I'm not in the majority and therefore am happy with the decision made. As to the 3.5" bracket, you have no data to back up your claims and therefore can't make such a sweeping statement.

 

[cowsgomoo]

My point being the majority will be using 2.5" drives. everybody seems hellbent on using ssd's. and with the 3.5" bracket you can't use a good air cooler like the NH-C14.
I won't use the optical drive and would like a no cut out top panel. Probably won't be getting one, unless they make the kickstarter campaign flexible enough. But my point is, I don't believe everybody that voted yes on having the optical drive will use one. They just like the option. And I understand that. Kinda like the 3.5" bracket is an option that's nice to have even if you don't use it. But if they had voted, I'm quite sure that would have been removed.

I'm sure everyone is going to use a mix of SSDs and 3.5" and 2.5". 3.5" is still the best price/storage-space for people who hoard data (leaving aside the separate NAS argument for later). Using 2.5" to get the same storage means spending more and at the same time using up more sata ports.

Not everyone is going to use the NH-C14, when there are other air cooler options like NT06-PRO or NH-L12, NH-C12P. There are also options like H60 and custom water cooling. Not everyone is going to place priority on cooling the CPU either. Not everyone is going to place two fans below the GPU. In the end people make compromise to get the best configurations for themselves with a case made for 500 people or more.

You said, "Just read it. didn't mean anything. the ratio of mechanical drives versus ssd's out there must be huge and I don't think they took that into consideration." I'm still confused as to what you mean.