No Booting To Desktop In Windows 8?

dr.stevil said:
It's all the other little changes that they made to accomidate a tablet, while sacrificing the usability as a workstation OS, that bugs the hell out of me. It's inconsistant and probably the least intuitive OS I've ever used.
Click to expand...

So what specifically beyond the Start Screen sacrifices keyboard and mouse for touch and tablets?

Since I use Windows 8 on both tablets and with keyboards and mice constantly I see things differently than most. But there's just nothing on any significance that I do with mice and keyboards that's really changed from my perspective. As you said it's a great tablet OS, so for a person like myself that uses Windows across a lot of different form factors and input methods Windows 8 is a big overall win in usability for me. I gave up nothing that matters to me for a BIG increase in the ability to use Windows on tablets, which for the first is very practical.
 
heatlesssun said:
So what specifically beyond the Start Screen sacrifices keyboard and mouse for touch and tablets?
Click to expand...

The handling of metro apps is a big one. Like I said... running at fullscreen makes perfect sense for a tablet where screen realestate is limited. On a desktop, it doesn't make any sense to me. Same with closing said metro apps. Why force gestures with a mouse when the tried and true close/max/min buttons work flawlessly? Also how the OS hides/shows other running tasks. It makes a lot of sense on a tablet, not so much on a desktop/workstation... the classic taskbar is a lot easier to multitask with IMHO.

I mean, if metro apps are supposed to be designed for mobile use (tablets, etc), then why throw them all in your face in a desktop environment? Why not use the opposite approach for the desktop? Make the 'legacy' desktop mode the default (and keep the start screen... I actually like it's design) but with stupport for metro apps? And in a tablet environment, make the metro UI/apps the default with desktop 'legacy' support built in (pretty much how windows 8 acts currently).

Honestly, I just feel that they made way too many sacrifices on the workstation/desktop end for the ability to jump head first into the mobile arena. Sure, you can still get work done with windows 8, but it's not intuitive... it's borderline frustrating. I honestly don't see how this is going to be a sucess for MS unless they really start selling a lot of tablets. Windows 8, IMHO, is going to piss off both the tech enthusiests and the tech illiterates alike (it took me years to get my parents comfortable with windows... this will be a support nightmare for me)
 
heatlesssun said:
So what specifically beyond the Start Screen sacrifices keyboard and mouse for touch and tablets?

Since I use Windows 8 on both tablets and with keyboards and mice constantly I see things differently than most. But there's just nothing on any significance that I do with mice and keyboards that's really changed from my perspective. As you said it's a great tablet OS, so for a person like myself that uses Windows across a lot of different form factors and input methods Windows 8 is a big overall win in usability for me. I gave up nothing that matters to me for a BIG increase in the ability to use Windows on tablets, which for the first is very practical.
Click to expand...

Holy shit on a shingle. Nobody gives a shit what YOU do with your experience - stop trying force your ideals down people throats. Your self-fulfilling prophecy isn't going to coincide with everyones opinions on Win8. You already addressed a shit load of different individuals with how you feel the experience is right for YOU. ffs, do you really feel the need to address everyone over and over and over and over and over and over and over again? with the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame tired ass arguments? Do you have M$ stock? are you a Microsoft employee/representative? Is the Micro$haft stuck in your dookey chute? It has to be one of those.

Seriously, even when it's clear Microsoft is fucking it's users in the ass you STILL insist of backing them up. You're the ONLY windows user on this forum with this much persistence and repetitiveness. People talk shit about Linux all the fucking time, as much as I love it - i don't even bother hoping on everyones dick like I'm protecting a child.

Learn to let opinions, be opinions.
 
SkribbelKat said:
It'll be okay. Heatless is just doing his thing.

I'm pretty sure he'd make an amazing televangelist if he wanted to become one. :)
Click to expand...

I swear, he's like that annoy itch on your ass you can't get rid of. You just keep scratching, and clawing, and rubbing that shit senseless... but it's still there! Or it'll get bigger!

FFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
 
dr.stevil said:
The handling of metro apps is a big one. Like I said... running at fullscreen makes perfect sense for a tablet where screen realestate is limited. On a desktop, it doesn't make any sense to me. Same with closing said metro apps. Why force gestures with a mouse when the tried and true close/max/min buttons work flawlessly? Also how the OS hides/shows other running tasks. It makes a lot of sense on a tablet, not so much on a desktop/workstation... the classic taskbar is a lot easier to multitask with IMHO.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of people the vast majority of the time run programs even on a desktop full screen. If one needs multiple open windows on screen simultaneously then use desktop programs. And this is even possible on Windows 8 tablets if one is up for using the desktop with touch which works well for a number of things. I sometimes will put two browsers side by side which is a snap with Aero Snap.

As for the close button, there tons of desktop apps that don't have Close buttons and even worse, don't actually close when clicked. At least with Windows 8 apps close behavior is 100% consistent.

dr.stevil said:
Honestly, I just feel that they made way too many sacrifices on the workstation/desktop end for the ability to jump head first into the mobile arena. Sure, you can still get work done with windows 8, but it's not intuitive... it's borderline frustrating. I honestly don't see how this is going to be a sucess for MS unless they really start selling a lot of tablets. Windows 8, IMHO, is going to piss off both the tech enthusiests and the tech illiterates alike (it took me years to get my parents comfortable with windows... this will be a support nightmare for me)
Click to expand...

The big issue are the changes. For everyone that's pissed there'll be one person that likes the changes or doesn't care. And sure, the idea is to sell a lot of tablets and touch devices. If the desktop market had a healthy growth rate and wasn't quickly being overtaken by tablets Microsoft wouldn't hare made these changes.
 
heatlesssun said:
As for the close button, there tons of desktop apps that don't have Close buttons and even worse, don't actually close when clicked. At least with Windows 8 apps close behavior is 100% consistent.
Click to expand...

I've seen very few applications that don't close when you click the little x thing and even fewer without the close button. The few that don't close are things like instant messengers or other "hang out by the clock" programs that mostly should stay active anyhow. What sorta sadistic software developers do you have over there making programs for you?
 
Windows 2.0 introduced overlapping Windows. Windows 8 removed them.
Windows 95 introduced the Start menu. Windows 8 removed it.

Metro/Start screen/Windows 8 applications are a step backwards, but prettier. Most of my real work will be done on the Desktop app. The features that made Windows better and made it work for 17 years (for Start menu; 27 years for overlapping windows) are being removed.

I don't mind the new UI, but I don't think it's really better than previous versions. Like mentioned before: Excellent on a tablet, no so much on desktop (which is where I am using it 95% of the time).
 
heatlesssun said:
If the desktop market had a healthy growth rate and wasn't quickly being overtaken by tablets Microsoft wouldn't hare made these changes.
Click to expand...

Yet I highly doubt MS will be going in this same direction with Windows 9 (after the backlash/miserable adoption rate) after my short use with Windows 8. Example: It takes me five clicks to restart my computer with Windows 8 compared to only three clicks in Windows 7. To me, that's not better, it's stupid (Unless I'm not seeing an easier (but normal) route yet). Example 2, almost half of what I click on the metro UI wants me to sign into my MS account. Last time I checked I never made an MS account and never planned to (shrugs).

I'm starting to feel MS was in desperation with this version of Windows and it may not do so well with majority of theirs user base. Again, I'm still trying to acclimate to it though so I can make a better judgment on it. That was just my initial quick observation after an hour or two of use. Thought Id share. :)
 
SkribbelKat said:
I've seen very few applications that don't close when you click the little x thing and even fewer without the close button. The few that don't close are things like instant messengers or other "hang out by the clock" programs that mostly should stay active anyhow. What sorta sadistic software developers do you have over there making programs for you?
Click to expand...

A crowd favorite around here Steam doesn't close when the close button is clicked.
 
Master_of_Sparks said:
When I click Exit, Steam exits. Why would a program with multiple windows close completely when you close one window?
Click to expand...

All I'm saying is that closing a number programs on the desktop in Windows isn't nearly as simple some are making it out to be, it certainly isn't 100% like formerly known as Metro apps.
 
Yeah, but Steam is one program. I dunno if "tons" is a fair representation of the number of applications that don't close with a click of the x.

heatlesssun said:
All I'm saying is that closing a number programs on the desktop in Windows isn't nearly as simple some are making it out to be, it certainly isn't 100% like formerly known as Metro apps.
Click to expand...

Closing programs is one of the things I've literally never seen anyone have a problem figuring out how to do on their own. :eek: It's like the pinnacle of simple.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Closing programs is one of the things I've literally never seen anyone have a problem figuring out how to do on their own. :eek: It's like the pinnacle of simple.
Click to expand...

Yes, but now you have the option of closing an application or closing an application (while it still runs in the background using resources pointlessly. Don't you see the improvement here?
 
pelo said:
Yes, but now you have the option of closing an application or closing an application (while it still runs in the background using resources pointlessly. Don't you see the improvement here?
Click to expand...

Haha! :)

Okay, I admit that I think the Metro thing isn't a big deal and don't really mind it if I can get better other stuff like less memory usage and that kinda thing. What does bug me is that thing with programs not getting totally closed, exited, and evicted from memory when I want them to go away. It's totally in my head since Windows 8 will do whatever it does to clear enough memory as I do other stuff, but it still bugs me in the same way that Windows 8 doesn't really shutdown completely. It's little stuff like that...I know it shouldn't matter...but OMG it's annoying still!
 
It does matter. It's "efficient" but efficient for the wrong crowd. Having an application cached and sleeping allows for faster startup on a device that lacks the compute power and I/O thrustification (my word, fuck off), but on a desktop with an SSD it makes no difference. You'd be better off if it closed completely and saved you some jiggerbytes of RAM and allows you to restart the application easier as well.

People who have used the RTM version haven't been too pleased. There's still some bugs being worked out and some of them quite serious. DPC latency, for example, is apparently quite slow and much worse than win7, causing some stuttering in background applications like videos and music. A lot of the Metro apps require you log in to your MS account. Metro applications still can't multi-task well and applications are also Metro-fied by default, meaning you've got to change their settings to launch them in desktop mode.

They weren't joking when they said tablet OS.
 
Click the fucking desktop tile and voila. It only goes to Metro on boot, on unlock and resume from sleep it returns to wherever you left off. Biggest non-issue of all time? Maybe.
 
chinesepiratefood said:
Click the fucking desktop tile and voila. It only goes to Metro on boot, on unlock and resume from sleep it returns to wherever you left off. Biggest non-issue of all time? Maybe.
Click to expand...

537093389_NO_U_shoop_da_whoop.jpg
 
Ducman69 said:
The "everything is hardware accelerated" deal might help those devices as well, which don't have the most powerful of processors.
Click to expand...

Damn... now you gave me the itch to try Win8 on my AMD C-50 Powered notebook... it runs 7 just fine, but could use a boost. It has a good GPU but a crappy CPU, maybe with 8 it runs like a champ!
 
pelo said:
You'd be better off if it closed completely and saved you some jiggerbytes of RAM and allows you to restart the application easier as well.
Click to expand...

Saved memory for what ? Disk cache ? You just complained that with SSD it doesn't matter, as loading times are low anyway. To be unused ? What is the point of that ?

Seriously, what is the difference between the current situation - every "free" gigabyte of memory is used as disk cache, once something requests memory then the disk cache part of memory shrinks and memory is available to the application which requested the memory instantly.

With Windows 8, all you will get is that instead of disk cache, you will have disk cache and suspended Windows 8 apps (Metro apps) occupying the "Free" memory. Again, if something will need the RAM, disk cache will shrink, and if needed, Windows 8 apps will be removed from the memory as well (their state will be already "persisted" at that point).

These complaints are complaints just because you want to complain, without any real technical reasons.
 
faugusztin said:
Saved memory for what ? Disk cache ? You just complained that with SSD it doesn't matter, as loading times are low anyway. To be unused ? What is the point of that ?

Seriously, what is the difference between the current situation - every "free" gigabyte of memory is used as disk cache, once something requests memory then the disk cache part of memory shrinks and memory is available to the application which requested the memory instantly.

With Windows 8, all you will get is that instead of disk cache, you will have disk cache and suspended Windows 8 apps (Metro apps) occupying the "Free" memory. Again, if something will need the RAM, disk cache will shrink, and if needed, Windows 8 apps will be removed from the memory as well (their state will be already "persisted" at that point).

These complaints are complaints just because you want to complain, without any real technical reasons.
Click to expand...

QFT! I work on computers everyday, from Windows XP, Vista, 7, Mac OSX and a rare Windows NT. The last thing I think about is, "ohhhh, no way I am going to click 1 more time, I just cannot handle that, owwww, my wrist hurts." People seriously need to get over themselves and enjoy the work they have.

Now, I have been using Windows 8 on my work machine and it is a whole lot smoother than 7. Things mostly just open faster, close faster, boot faster, run faster and just work faster. I like 7 as well but I am starting to prefer 8 more and more. (Beta version so I am looking forward to the RTM to get rid of the bugs.)

Those who do not want to use it and have good reasons, such as something not working that they need, that is cool. However, those who do not want to use it just because, please stop whining about it over and over and over and over and over and over and over. (Did I say over?)
 
The only question I have is, how do you quickly switch from a metro app to the desktop?
 
ManofGod said:
The only question I have is, how do you quickly switch from a metro app to the desktop?
Click to expand...

Mouse to top left of screen to bring up the side menu of open apps, click desired app/desktop. Right click and close anything you want closed.
 
heatlesssun said:
The vast majority of people the vast majority of the time run programs even on a desktop full screen. If one needs multiple open windows on screen simultaneously then use desktop programs. And this is even possible on Windows 8 tablets if one is up for using the desktop with touch which works well for a number of things. I sometimes will put two browsers side by side which is a snap with Aero Snap.
Click to expand...

Where do you get that statistic? I don't think it's really reasonable to say that either people use programs fullscreen or they dont. On very small screens (10-14" laptops and such), I would tend to agree that for most things, people would use fullscreen. But on a larger laptops or desktops, I just don't buy it.

For example, the software I use for work and moonlighting (or even games), I'll usually have it fullscreen on one of my monitors, yet on the other will usually have my mail client, web browser notepad++ and other assorted apps running. I have yet to actually try it yet, but in windows 8, can I have 'desktop' running on one monitor and metro running on the other? I can see that being a really useful feature if they're sticking with Win8's UI.


heatlesssun said:
As for the close button, there tons of desktop apps that don't have Close buttons and even worse, don't actually close when clicked. At least with Windows 8 apps close behavior is 100% consistent.
Click to expand...

Is it really consistant though? Desktop apps still use the close button, do they not?

This is just one of the really shortsighted things they've done with Win8 that really makes me shake my head in disbelief. Gestures like swiping to close work great with touch, but are really awkward with a mouse. It's completely unintuitive. If Windows detects a touch-input, it should default to the swipe to close method. Otherwise, it should use the standard close/min/max buttons that every computer user is familiar with

The big issue are the changes. For everyone that's pissed there'll be one person that likes the changes or doesn't care. And sure, the idea is to sell a lot of tablets and touch devices. If the desktop market had a healthy growth rate and wasn't quickly being overtaken by tablets Microsoft wouldn't hare made these changes.
Click to expand...

and that's why Windows 8 is going to fail. They couldn't make a Desktop OS very usable on a tablet, so I don't know why they think they're going to make a Tablet OS usable on a desktop. It's not going to work.

Honestly, they should of taken the same approach as Apple. Release a dedicated mobile OS and a dedicated PC/Desktop OS and blend them together for a seamless experience. Instead, they're shoehorning things and it's going to piss their customers off.
 
dr.stevil said:
this UI is probably one of the worst ideas to come out of Microsoft since the ribbon interface.
Click to expand...

Some of us like the ribbon, makes it easier to find all sorts of crap. I LOVE the ribbon in AutoCAD 2010 as the first tab replaces about 5-6 toolbars. Same with Office.

Ah well, to each their own but the 'new Windows Start Screen' isn't bad at all and neither is the ribbon.
 
Think ill stick with Windows 7.

The more I hear about how bad windows 8 is, the more I want to stick with my W7 as long as XP lol.
 
Numan said:
Some of us like the ribbon, makes it easier to find all sorts of crap. I LOVE the ribbon in AutoCAD 2010 as the first tab replaces about 5-6 toolbars. Same with Office.

Ah well, to each their own but the 'new Windows Start Screen' isn't bad at all and neither is the ribbon.
Click to expand...

But its not 'each their own'. Its not optional if you upgrade. And there's always pressure to upgrade eventually. If you buy a new PC you're not even given that choice of delaying the change.

And there was absolutely no reason to not have both ribbons and the old menus/toolbars. In fact, I had essentially ribbons because I had several customized toolbars. The difference is that I customized them how I wanted. Not pre-canned crap that forces me to tab around the ribbons to accomplish a small task. I used it have it all in one place. Office was more customizable before 'ribbons' than after.

But helping end users that use Office as a Tool wasn't the point to ribbons, was it? The point to ribbons was to dumb it down so that people who are suppose to help people who are the true end users, have it easier by hiding functionality and eliminating customization.
 
jpm100 said:
But helping end users that use Office as a Tool wasn't the point to ribbons, was it? The point to ribbons was to dumb it down so that people who are suppose to help people who are the true end users, have it easier by hiding functionality and eliminating customization.
Click to expand...
pretty sure the main point was to differentiate it from Office 2003

which begs the question: why are people still whining about a feature change from 6 years ago?
 
mope54 said:
pretty sure the main point was to differentiate it from Office 2003

which begs the question: why are people still whining about a feature change from 6 years ago?
Click to expand...

Because 6 years later and it STILL sucks :p
 
dr.stevil said:
Where do you get that statistic? I don't think it's really reasonable to say that either people use programs fullscreen or they dont. On very small screens (10-14" laptops and such), I would tend to agree that for most things, people would use fullscreen. But on a larger laptops or desktops, I just don't buy it.
Click to expand...

I've supported and worked around Windows users for a very long time and people running programs full screen is what I see the overwhelming majority of the time with my own eyes. Where I work now dual monitors is the norm for workers and in that situation it's again by an overwhelming margin one full screen program per monitor.

Now with monitors beyond HD resolution which I've never seen in the work place nor have I ever owned one I would agree just from reason that people with larger monitors probably are geared towards multiple windows on screen. But I don't think that Windows 8 apps are the types of apps people would want to use in those situations for productive work anyway. I use Windows 8 apps to check on news, casual gaming, etc. where full screen is really the best way. I use the Windows 8 SlapDash podcasting app which plays the audio in the background while I'm on the desktop and if I want to see the video I can snap it the side.

The thing is with Windows 8, one has options between desktop and Metro apps and while Metro apps don't support windowing that doesn't mean that they can't be using on desktops depending on the task and in no way to they have to replace desktop apps and you can even use desktop apps on a tablet if you so choose.

The way I use Windows on larger screen setups is that I have a mix of full screen and non-full screen programs so Metro doesn't really alter anything anyway. But this is Metro 1.0 on Windows and I've never said that I thought it was perfect and more capable windowing of apps is certainly something that can use improvement. But full screen apps in and of themselves doesn't preclude multi-tasking because people switch between full screen apps even on the desktop, A LOT.

dr.stevil said:
I have yet to actually try it yet, but in windows 8, can I have 'desktop' running on one monitor and metro running on the other?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is possible to have Metro on screen and the desktop on the other and I do that a lot. There are some quirks to this though that I don't like. The Start Screen can be bought up on any screen, so if you were running a Metro app on one screen and then bought up the Start Screen on another then the Metro app would give way to the desktop and when you leave the Start Screen the Metro app will now be on that screen.

dr.stevil said:
This is just one of the really shortsighted things they've done with Win8 that really makes me shake my head in disbelief. Gestures like swiping to close work great with touch, but are really awkward with a mouse. It's completely unintuitive. If Windows detects a touch-input, it should default to the swipe to close method. Otherwise, it should use the standard close/min/max buttons that every computer user is familiar with
Click to expand...

Metro app closing with a mouse is something that I've debated. It does seem to require more mouse movement but it is 100% consistent unlike desktop apps and Alt-F4 works as well as closing from the side bar. Let's also not forget that many people will be using Windows 8 with laptops and touch pads and gestures there do make a lot of sense.


dr.stevil said:
and that's why Windows 8 is going to fail. They couldn't make a Desktop OS very usable on a tablet, so I don't know why they think they're going to make a Tablet OS usable on a desktop. It's not going to work.

Honestly, they should of taken the same approach as Apple. Release a dedicated mobile OS and a dedicated PC/Desktop OS and blend them together for a seamless experience. Instead, they're shoehorning things and it's going to piss their customers off.
Click to expand...

The thing is though that everyone else already has a separate OS approach. The thing is though that no matter what complaints there are about the "pure" desktop the truth is that the pure desktop is simply not a growing area. The true strength of Windows 8 is it's hybrid design and while it may be a harder sell with keyboard and mice only folks, for mobile and tablet users there's a lot of strengths. I do agree that the adoption of Windows 8 tablet and touch devices is critical for the success of Windows 8. That's really when Windows 8 makes a LOT of sense especially when one moves from using the same device as tablet and laptop/desktop.
 
jpm100 said:
And there was absolutely no reason to not have both ribbons and the old menus/toolbars.
Click to expand...

There definitely are valid reasons not to support multiple UIs in a product. How long do you keep supporting the old UI? What happens when there's something that replaces the ribbon? Now you have to support three UIs in a single program? Just keep the old way if I want it sounds great on paper but the more and more you do that with software the more brittle is becomes to change.
 
what's the latest build version? is it 8400?

I'm not really clear on how to update or verify if i have the latest build
 
mope54 said:
what's the latest build version? is it 8400?

I'm not really clear on how to update or verify if i have the latest build
Click to expand...

The RTM build number is 9200, 8400 is the Release Preview. In a command window type "ver" and the last four digits are the build number.
 
Just going to throw this out there, but I just set up a windows 8 VM at work.
We have a IE splash screen when you first log in, that brings me to the desktop, and not the metro interface.

Granted when I close the window the comp locks up until I hit the Windows button to take me to the Metro UI.

Just a though that that could circumvent the Metro UI.
 
chinesepiratefood said:
The ribbon is superior in pretty much every measurable category to a menu strip.
Click to expand...

That's fine that you like it, but I (and many many others) disagree completely. The ribbon interface is a small step above useless.

99% of the applications, utilities and other software that I use in Windows, doesn't use the ribbon interface. So having to use everything in a productive way (like I've been doing for the past 3 decades) and then suddenly having to search through that rediculous interface for something that would of taken me seconds with any other piece of windows software (both first and third party), is a major pain in the ass. It honestly turned me from a huge MS Office advocate (I loved Office2003) to using 3rd party office solutions for friends (and went back to 03 at home)

I'm glad that some people like it, but I hear complaints about it way more often than not. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm forced to use it at work, I'd of abandoned MS Office completely.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top