jester1176
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Curious how this system looks like crap...
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Diablo 3 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter xenios
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Curious how this system looks like crap...
Hard decisions? If you choose a wrong rune, or skill, just respec. lol.
Hard decisions? If you choose a wrong rune, or skill, just respec. lol.
I think you're missing my point.. all of the runes and all of the skills are good. Even magic missile is a viable and awesome skill with runes etc. So with six slots its going to be hard to choose which skills and which runes to use. When all the skills are equally good but have different uses it makes filling your six slots an actual challenge. As opposed to the beta where you have one rune and 5-6 skills etc. see what I mean?
Like if I go to the skill calculator and make a build for a level 30 character I'm debating for awhile which spells to use because I want to use more than six.. so the limit on the number of skills makes building a set of skills almost difficult and exciting
The years of emptiness that D2LOD has left me can not be quenched by a simple exchange of genetic information. I have to fill that hole with blood and glory, which can only be extracted from the Army of Hell.
all of the runes and all of the skills are good. Even magic missile is a viable and awesome skill with runes etc. So with six slots its going to be hard to choose which skills and which runes to use. When all the skills are equally good but have different uses it makes filling your six slots an actual challenge. As opposed to the beta where you have one rune and 5-6 skills etc. see what I mean?
Like if I go to the skill calculator and make a build for a level 30 character I'm debating for awhile which spells to use because I want to use more than six.. so the limit on the number of skills makes building a set of skills almost difficult and exciting
This is much more of a problem before you actually play the game, imo. Generally these sorts of choices tend to boil down to a few different viable builds pretty quick.
Intel_Hydralisk
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all of the runes and all of the skills are good. Even magic missile is a viable and awesome skill with runes etc. So with six slots its going to be hard to choose which skills and which runes to use. When all the skills are equally good but have different uses it makes filling your six slots an actual challenge. As opposed to the beta where you have one rune and 5-6 skills etc. see what I mean?
Like if I go to the skill calculator and make a build for a level 30 character I'm debating for awhile which spells to use because I want to use more than six.. so the limit on the number of skills makes building a set of skills almost difficult and exciting
I think it's a lot more straightforward that you make it out to be. I think it will boil down to very specific builds for certain scenarios/bosses. Most of the time you'll likely have a generic AOE/Mob build and a generic boss build that you switch to for bosses.
Not knowing your scenario and just looking at a skill calculator you might think everything's great and it's a hard choice, but I think as you encounter specific bosses / fights, it will become very clear what you need to do.
There is also solo vs group play to consider. If you plan out a build with a team you can specialize a bit more. I was looking at a monk 'vacuum' build to pull all mobs to you and actually survive, while teammates AOE. It would gear more for str/int for higher resists to go along with the high dodge the actual build provides, at the cost of DPS. Lots of options.
For one, it doesn't look like anything is 'super powerful.' D2 you focused on building up your one or two skills that you would use to demolish stuff. D3 looks more like it's going to be mixing up the attacks more to do moderate damage instead of using single ridiculously strong attacks. I guess that's not necessarily a bad thing, just not what I really expected from Diablo(and it may turn out not to be accurate at all).
That leads to the second issue. Diablo 2 took a time commitment for each build you wanted to try out. If I could just go swap all my skills at will, I think I might have gotten bored pretty quickly. They say there are 'millions' of builds for each character, but if you swap the sigil on one ability, how much of a difference is that really going to make in the overall scheme of things.
If you just start the games instead of joining it should probably work out.
Solitude
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I want to finish the story first before jumping in multiplayer.
What Oomps said...start the game yourself. It will always start on your current quest. Then hit escape and click 'open game to public'.
If you join someone else's game instead you start on their current quest and might skip ahead.
Maplehamwich
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I like this Penny Arcade comic:
chockomonkey
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That's what i'll do. But will likely be playing it in co-op, not single or multi.
As for the skills, yes--blizzard way over did the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF SPECS! bit.
I'm just hoping for fun compelling gameplay at this point. I am assuming we won't have as many choices as we'd like, but if the game's fun--that's what matters.
And yes: with the removal of many aspects which required grinding (making a new character to try a new spec, for instance), the game will have a shorter life-span.
I assume you can invite people on your friends list without opening the game to public?
That's a good point. I'll just do that.
this is where we disagree I guess. They built the game to make almost all builds viable.. thats why the skill system works so well in terms of customization
lots of interviews with devs talking about making every spell and rune viable through the entire game..
some might be the best builds but Im sure i'll have a crazy unique build I made up myself and there will be lots out there for you to try
Anyone taking Tuesday off to play? I have a group of friends who are picking it up and were going to give it a go. Watch Avengers first, pick it up at midnight release and go home and play until we cant stay awake any longer. I am somewhat concerned that downtime will prevent us from playing though. Im almost 30 at this point, dont get to do things like this much anymore.
I wanted to take that friday off but I might not be able to now ;(
Dark Shade
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Yeah, I took Tuesday off a long time ago. Two other friends of mine and my brother will also be up at that hour ready to take on the big 'blo. We already decided on who will be which class (DH/Monk/Barb/WD), my only hope is that we can all logon at 3:01AM and start playing without waiting for a straggler or two
Breath_of_the_Dying
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Runes are significantly different. It's not always as simple as "add frost damage.". Even the add element runes become more dramatic depending on your passive skill choice. It's no longer about spamming your ultimate attack for highest damage,it is all about actual skill of combining attack rotation, resource management, cool downs buffs and debuffs. A rotation of attacks and abilities can completely change with a rune. I believe you'll find the best players are the ones that learn this quickly and can adapt to different situations instead of following cookie cutter builds.
I also find it interesting that people think on the fly respecs somehow diminish replayability. I can now try more builds then ever before because I'm not releveling my char for the 20th time. For those that want to start over, there is nothing that stops you from deleting your character and starting over again. The choice is yours.
You answered it yourself. I made it red.
Having to relevel a character = replayability.No..
jester1176
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I just like the idea of having variety.
D2 - only two abilities available to you at any time (left and right click)
D3 - up to six abilities available to me at any time. (left and right click, and 1-4 keys)
I'd rather leap, cleave, whirlwind, overpower, shout and slam all in the span of two seconds instead of just be able to leap and slam.
D2 - only two abilities available to you at any time (left and right click)
D3 - up to six abilities available to me at any time. (left and right click, and 1-4 keys)
I'd rather leap, cleave, whirlwind, overpower, shout and slam all in the span of two seconds instead of just be able to leap and slam.
You can change anytime and any moment with F1-F8 key.
It's been like that since Diablo 1
jester1176
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Yep. You're right. But that's an extra key press.
Leap>Slam>F3>whirlwind>F2>Slam>F1>Sprint>Leap>F2>Slam
Rather have it all there, already mapped to a key of my choosing.
Wouldn't you? You have this entire keyboard that allows you to do more cool stuff on the fly. All theses buttons on your gaming mouse that you never use.
Come on people. Evolve a bit.
Leap>Slam>F3>whirlwind>F2>Slam>F1>Sprint>Leap>F2>Slam
Rather have it all there, already mapped to a key of my choosing.
Wouldn't you? You have this entire keyboard that allows you to do more cool stuff on the fly. All theses buttons on your gaming mouse that you never use.
Come on people. Evolve a bit.
Breath_of_the_Dying
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You answered it yourself. I made it red.
No..
You have the choice to relevel your character for the 20th time or not, I see no loss in replayability. If you have the choice and don't take it, is that type of replayability that fun for you to begin with?
Velox
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Actually, yeah, it's pretty much going to be spamming your ultimate damage attack. Why wouldn't it? And those best players who quickly adapt to different situations? They will post guides and cookie-cutter builds for that situation that everyone will copy. There will be a new build for each boss. "Killing Diablo? Use this build. Baal? This is the best build." Only difference now is that everyone will have the same build, rather than having th diverse builds possible with Diablo 2
On the fly respecs GREATLY kill replayability. Why bother leveling up a new character to try a new spec, when you can do it in 15 seconds? You wouldn't, so you don't. Now, rather than spending time leveling a new character to try some cool or funky new build, you spend a minute or two respecing, and then go on your way to do the same grind over and over again. There is no compelling reason to level more than one of each class.
You say "The choice is yours.", but it's just the same illusion of choice I hear tossed around by supporters of this new, shallow, system.
how is the grind of item farming any different than the grind of starting a new character?
you are playing the exact same story.
either you start the normal difficulty at lvl 1 or you start it at 60 in inferno.
its the same story.
if you really want to replay the normal difficulty over and over again try playing hardcore characters so when you die you get to replay the same game again.
jester1176
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5 classes
4 difficulties
co-op & single player
Hardcore & "softcore"
Tons of different ability, rune and gem combinations not to mention weapons that you can change on the fly.
I seen plenty of opportunities to play the game through with many different ability choices. I bet you that your build for single player will end up being different than it is in multiplayer. I also bet you that your build for hardcore mode will be different than it is in "softcore."
And I bet you, yet again, that your build in inferno difficulty will be different than it is in normal.
If you want to play the way that you used to, don't use the new ability system that lets you change on the fly. Sit back, lock in your abilities, and ignore the awesome ones that present themselves as you level up.
But you'll be missing out if you do.
Breath_of_the_Dying
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There is a possibility that there is a highest dps build, but there's also a great possibility that its not always the best choice. The simple mana system for D2 meant you spam your best attack. You either had a way to regen, spam pots, or get mana back on hit/kill. There was no complexity to spamming your strongest ability.
D3 classes each have a resource bar that acts differently along with abilities that have significant cool downs. Spamming your ultimate every 3 minutes wont cut it, spamming the most resource intensive ability wont cut it. OK players will follow what people post as cookie cutter builds, great players will understand resource and cooldown management.
The same can be said in the other direction, forcing you to re level a class just to try another build is an illusion of content and replayabliity. Again you have the choice. If you choose to not level a new character, that means that you're having more fun sticking with the same character you already build. Let me re-emphasize
Then that must mean you dont find leveling a class more than once fun.
Intel_Hydralisk
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Hey that's fine by me. I don't plan on sticking with D3 when GW2 comes out. I'm actually happy it won't consume my life like D2 did. Whew.
To me it's more the fact that builds in d2 were far more drastic in the changes. Each build could make the class feel completely different. With the more incremental changes possible in d3 it just seems like they are variations on the same theme.
I mean, I'll probably love the game, but I have to complain right? It's my duty as a denizen of the interweb.
northrop
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It wasn't all that fun in D2 either. It was mandatory.
Don't get me wrong. I had multiple high level characters of each class but at some point, power leveling isn't all that fun anymore. The only time it was fun (after I have had successfully leveled 50+ of my other characters past lvl 80) was when I was doing a specific PvP lvl30 character (or similar). That I can see as being a little bit more fun (although I'm not sure if 'fun' is the right word here). It was slightly more exciting, I guess.
jester1176
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Not really....
Let's look at something as simple as poison dart from the Witch Doctor, the first ability given to the class.
At level 13, I can make it a numbing dart, turning the dart into a snare, reducing the target movement speed.
At level 25. I can make it a spined dart, giving me mana each time it hits a target.
These are more than subtle changes. These are gameplay changes. The snare would probably be useful as faster enemies are in an area and I need to slow them down but the spined dart might be useful for a longer boss fight.
And hell, who doesn't want the lvl 52 variant - Snake to the Face?
To me it's more the fact that builds in d2 were far more drastic in the changes. Each build could make the class feel completely different. With the more incremental changes possible in d3 it just seems like they are variations on the same theme.
I mean, I'll probably love the game, but I have to complain right? It's my duty as a denizen of the interweb.
actually that cant be farther from the truth as far as the D3 comment, alot of the runes do change the ability in drastic ways and animations as an example Way of the Hundred fists Blazing Fists rune crits increase your attack speed and movement by 5% and stacks upto 3 times or you can use the WindForce Flurry Rune and make its so every 3rd attack from it delivers a wave of wind that does 250% weapon damage to "Enemies" directly ahead of you turning the ability from a single target attack into a partial cone attack.
there are also a few that are just damage bumps to make for example crippling wave (a cone attack) do more damage you would use a Mangle Rune, but you can make it defensive and enemies hit by crippling wave do 20% less damage Cuncussion Rune.
im very impressed with the system they have in place right now.
i was actually against it when i first heard about it, i thought "no skill points to spend? no character stats to spend like strength vitality ect how crappy.."
but actually getting to try out the beta and seeing it in action and finding out about the elective mode to truely use any of the ability with any other abilitys really opened my eyes to the possabilitys.
you are still encuraged to not change your abilitys on the fly once you hit lvl 60 because of the Nephalem Valor system.
basically as you kill rare and other mini bosses once you are lvl 60 you gain Nephalem Valor which increases your Magic find but if you change your abilitys out your Nephalem Valor resets.
edit-
here is the official forum post describing the Nephlem system in more detail
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4241234476
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Breath_of_the_Dying
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I expect the inferno progression to look like this
Finish hell mode, feeling awesome
Rofl stomped early in inferno, respec for more survival, respec for each encounter, ignoring Nephalem buff
Slowly push through a segment, farm segment for gear progression.
As gear increases, gravitate towards a single spec again, begin racking up Nephalem Valor, more drops, segment gets easier.
Finish Act 1 hell mode, feeling awesome.
Roflstomped early in act 2.
Finish hell mode, feeling awesome
Rofl stomped early in inferno, respec for more survival, respec for each encounter, ignoring Nephalem buff
Slowly push through a segment, farm segment for gear progression.
As gear increases, gravitate towards a single spec again, begin racking up Nephalem Valor, more drops, segment gets easier.
Finish Act 1 hell mode, feeling awesome.
Roflstomped early in act 2.
i expect to run act 4 hell mode atleast 10-20 times before being able to really make any significant attempt at trying to make it to the skeleton king in inferno. the jump in difficulty is quite staggering from a stats perspective. i wouldnt doubt that the first zombie in act 1 inferno 1 shots someone not expecting it.
Velox
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So you're saying the game is more rotational? That just makes things worse, as the cookie-cutter builds will be even more prevalent, and your rotation will be predefined, just like in WoW now.
How is playing the game again (aka REPLAYING the game) an illusion of replayability? Also, you missed an option. If I chose not to level a new character, it's because I got bored and stopped playing. Hence, the lack of replayability
Actually, no, I do find leveling a class more than once fun. In Diablo 2, I played the Sorceress almost exclusively. I leveled as Chain Lightening/Hydra, Meteorb, CL/BLizzard, etc, etc. Each time I level a Sorceress, the experience is completely different, and each level I can look forward to increasing my power
In Diablo 3, leveling two of the same class plays exactly the same. Plus, leveling either increases your power (giving you the glyph you want), or does nothing for you (oh look, I don't use that ability/want that glyph). You have NO control over how your character progresses. That is not fun for me at all.