PC versus Mac

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I know what you are thinking…"another PC versus Mac site ?" This time the PC versus Mac site is actually an official Microsoft site but it does little more than explain the obvious to people that are already visiting a Microsoft website in the first place.

PCs are designed for work and play, with features you need to get things done on the job or at school and have fun at home or on the go. From easily sharing Microsoft Office documents to watching HDTV and Blu-ray movies, PCs help you do it all.
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Personally, I think Microsoft needs to go back to their ads that highlight the cost / performance difference between Microsoft and Apple products. That hits home with the average Joe, not this.
 
Steve said:
I know what you are thinking…"another PC versus Mac site ?" This time the PC versus Mac site is actually an official Microsoft site but it does little more than explain the obvious to people that are already visiting a Microsoft website in the first place.



Personally, I think Microsoft needs to go back to their ads that highlight the cost / performance difference between Microsoft and Apple products. That hits home with the average Joe, not this.
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Steve,

That's the problem with Microsoft today -- they don't "get it", and haven't for some time. There isn't a single non-Windows user that site will convert, making it more wasted resources on the part of Microsoft. As a shareholder of they're dead ass low dividend paying stock, it angers me...as the more time that goes by, the further out of touch they seem to become.

Although I shouldn't really be surprised.

As I've told many people, Microsoft in the 00's became the IBM of the 90's. They make money, so does IBM, but they're become complacent. Meanwhile, Google and Apple continue making huge strides in every area of business they enter, love them or hate them...it hasn't been Microsoft driving the technology we use today, it's those other guys.
 
/facepalm

Someone needs to remind Microsoft that they're a software company that provides software for all platforms, and Windows is just one department.
 
Azhar said:
/facepalm

Someone needs to remind Microsoft that they're a software company that provides software for all platforms, and Windows is just one department.
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Windows is a pretty big business unit of Microsoft and no doubt has its own Marketing department with its own budget.

That being said, I think we're missing the point of that page. They can't talk about pricing in general, because they don't sell the PCs--their partners do. What they can do is to provide a big fat link to Windows PC Scout, which steps them through selecting a laptop or desktop from a list of preferred vendors. The site promotes their channel partners. THAT'S how Windows makes money for Microsoft.

As an example, here's the default power gaming laptop filter:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc...eria.aspx?cat=4&brands=all&addf=showmaxnumpcs
 
srangara said:
Windows is a pretty big business unit of Microsoft and no doubt has its own Marketing department with its own budget.

That being said, I think we're missing the point of that page. They can't talk about pricing in general, because they don't sell the PCs--their partners do. What they can do is to provide a big fat link to Windows PC Scout, which steps them through selecting a laptop or desktop from a list of preferred vendors. The site promotes their channel partners. THAT'S how Windows makes money for Microsoft.

As an example, here's the default power gaming laptop filter:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc...eria.aspx?cat=4&brands=all&addf=showmaxnumpcs
Click to expand...

Aye, but that brings up another point. Windows do work on Apple computers, thanks to Apple-approved Boot Camp and Parallel. Microsoft is truly for all platforms. I think Microsoft should leave the PC vs Apple contest to HP, Dell and the others. They're just lighting a match under Apple for no good purpose.
 
They're just offering up information, nothing more. People need to lay off Microsoft, really.

But, just to ask, can you go to any retail store in the world right now this moment and get an iMac or any Apple computer of any kind with an HDTV tuner in the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No?

How about a Blu-ray capable machine, out of the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No, again?

Damn...

And if I bought such a machine on the "PC" side of things, with an HDTV tuner and a Blu-ray drive that both work outta the box ready to roll as soon as I power on the machine the first time... and it's like, nearly a thousand dollars less, and has basically the same hardware in it as the iMac/Apple computer?

That wasn't such a tough choice after all, now was it? ;)
 
Bahamut said:
They're just offering up information, nothing more. People need to lay off Apple, really. <-- FTFY

But, just to ask, can you go to any retail store in the world right now this moment and get an iMac or any Apple computer of any kind with an HDTV tuner in the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No?

How about a Blu-ray capable machine, out of the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No, again?

Damn...

And if I bought such a machine on the "PC" side of things, with an HDTV tuner and a Blu-ray drive that both work outta the box ready to roll as soon as I power on the machine the first time... and it's like, nearly a thousand dollars less, and has basically the same hardware in it as the iMac/Apple computer?

That wasn't such a tough choice after all, now was it? ;)
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Put it in perspective. Did you see people laying off Apple back when they did this? :rolleyes:
 
Bahamut said:
They're just offering up information, nothing more. People need to lay off Microsoft, really.

But, just to ask, can you go to any retail store in the world right now this moment and get an iMac or any Apple computer of any kind with an HDTV tuner in the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No?

How about a Blu-ray capable machine, out of the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No, again?

Damn...

And if I bought such a machine on the "PC" side of things, with an HDTV tuner and a Blu-ray drive that both work outta the box ready to roll as soon as I power on the machine the first time... and it's like, nearly a thousand dollars less, and has basically the same hardware in it as the iMac/Apple computer?

That wasn't such a tough choice after all, now was it? ;)
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Communicating that to the average joe is the hardest part of that realization. All the techies know that Apple hardware doesn't provide much function and is substantially worse than equivalent-costing PC hardware, I don't think I could have stated something more obvious other than the sky is blue.
 
But but but... Apple is the only computer in the computer industry that actually deserves to be put in their place when they profess to have the absolute best of everything in every product they manufacture and obviously they aren't and obviously they don't...

Apple is a company that makes computers and their own OSes, hence they're in line for this - Microsoft makes an OS, not computers, so they're not. The PC vs Mac debate is one thing, Windows vs OSX is another, but this thread is about PC vs Mac...

I've been saying since 1980 that Microsoft and Apple are not and never have been in direct competition in that respect - PC vs Mac - and I'm still just as accurate today as I was when I said it the first time 30 freakin' years ago. If and when Microsoft markets their own branded personal computer, then things can be discussed from that point of view, but they don't, so realistically it can't.

Apple deserves every word said against 'em because more often than not it's 100% accurate...
 
Emission said:
Communicating that to the average joe is the hardest part of that realization. All the techies know that Apple hardware doesn't provide much function and is substantially worse than equivalent-costing PC hardware, I don't think I could have stated something more obvious other than the sky is blue.
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That's part of the fundamental problem. The average "joe" doesn't care about extra horsepower or function...they care about how easy it is to use and how pretty it is.
 
Isn't it interesting how Microsoft even feels the need for this site?
 
Bahamut said:
But but but... Apple is the only computer in the computer industry that actually deserves to be put in their place when they profess to have the absolute best of everything in every product they manufacture and obviously they aren't and obviously they don't...

Apple is a company that makes computers and their own OSes, hence they're in line for this - Microsoft makes an OS, not computers, so they're not. The PC vs Mac debate is one thing, Windows vs OSX is another, but this thread is about PC vs Mac...

I've been saying since 1980 that Microsoft and Apple are not and never have been in direct competition in that respect - PC vs Mac - and I'm still just as accurate today as I was when I said it the first time 30 freakin' years ago. If and when Microsoft markets their own branded personal computer, then things can be discussed from that point of view, but they don't, so realistically it can't.

Apple deserves every word said against 'em because more often than not it's 100% accurate...
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Show me a competitive ad that's 100% accurate and I'll mail you some cookies.
 
I will agree with MS is out of touch statement but also I love windows 7, its hot! They really did get it right, I don't see a problem with vista but when I use my 7 machine I see progress.


What MS needs to do is freakin' believe and invest in themselves >.< They have to be their own hype men and continue to provide value in their own products.

Examples:

Windows 7 phone, it isn't out yet but so what. Get some sample hardware and start showing it off. Remember that better street view concept from a week or two ago? It was mention being done on the iPhone. U-Verse the only media room Pay TV service in the US I believe has an iphone app.. why? Yes AT&T has the iPhone until next year but Media room is an MS product, why not a Zune program? A windows 7 phone app.

Zune HD: Great product, like it more than my iPod (although its just a classic but I think it would be better than a touch) its diskless so not as much storage but wonderful however; No flash but even better silverlight! No enterprise encryption support the app market place is bare! Pretty much like all MS hardware they put it out there and let it survive or die. They should advertise people probably know about the rhapsody service more than the Zune pass.

Xbox 360: ... okay so this is kicking butt and taking names however they could open up the media side even more. Allow more streaming and easier streaming, clients for more than just windows and more than whats built into WMP/Zune and how about an SDK for streaming? Also speeding up the xguide menus but that really is outside the scope of this rant.

Windows OS:... They could stand to have an enthusiast presence. Show what people are doing with and on it show what it can do, contest, information feed back blah blah buddy buddy type stuff.
 
Azhar said:
Put it in perspective. Did you see people laying off Apple back when they did this? :rolleyes:
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If you are referring to the Apple/PC commercials, those were in a much different light. Belittling and talking about extreme circumstances (omg I always blue screen. omg I cant do anything cool, etc).

Microsoft is trying to inform the public on what Apple *CAN'T* do compared to a PC... not belittling Apple. :)
 
in on another epic flamewar thread

iphone 4 are great at apps, not so much at making calls

go
 
Bahamut said:
They're just offering up information, nothing more. People need to lay off Microsoft, really.

But, just to ask, can you go to any retail store in the world right now this moment and get an iMac or any Apple computer of any kind with an HDTV tuner in the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No?

How about a Blu-ray capable machine, out of the box, ready to roll as soon as you power up the machine the first time? No, again?

Damn...

And if I bought such a machine on the "PC" side of things, with an HDTV tuner and a Blu-ray drive that both work outta the box ready to roll as soon as I power on the machine the first time... and it's like, nearly a thousand dollars less, and has basically the same hardware in it as the iMac/Apple computer?

That wasn't such a tough choice after all, now was it? ;)
Click to expand...

Yup, too bad the average idiot does not get this. "It's a Mac, it just works!"

Me: What's so great about em'?
Them: They are awesome!
Me: How?
Them: They are reinventing!
Me: ....

"Mac VS PC" - Last time I checked PC stood for Personal Computer. So if a "Mac" isn't a "PC" or a server, what is it? A paper weight? :p

Anyway, what really pisses me off now days is how people (Mac owners) still think the basic (older) hardware in their Macs is different, and some how better. It's not. Intel chipset, Intel CPU's, nVidia/ATi video options (not as many options as we have though ;)). How long after i7 did it take Apple to start using them? Other than the OS, and the case all of their parts are in I don't see how they are different ... Other than the price tag.
 
WasntMe said:
If you are referring to the Apple/PC commercials, those were in a much different light. Belittling and talking about extreme circumstances (omg I always blue screen. omg I cant do anything cool, etc).

Microsoft is trying to inform the public on what Apple *CAN'T* do compared to a PC... not belittling Apple. :)
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wha..

Did you close your ears and eyes when you saw the Apple vs PC commercials? Did you ignore the fact that Microsoft software works on Apple computers anyways?
 
Azhar said:
wha..

Did you close your ears and eyes when you saw the Apple vs PC commercials? Did you ignore the fact that Microsoft software works on Apple computers anyways?
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If you go back and look at the past history pre-BootCamp, you'd note a given level of sales for Apple computers, even with apps like Parallels that had been around for some time (VMWare's Fusion came along much later) that allowed people to use Windows while running OSX (including VirtualPC which eventually got Connectix purchased by, guess who, Microsoft).

But as soon as BootCamp appeared, wham... you'd see a decided and quite marked rise began to appear on graphs/charts/etc. So, in some respects, Apple's computers are where they are today in terms of the minimal gains in market share over the past 4+ years since the Intel transition because - low and behold - Apple came to their senses and realized "Hey, man, if we can make it so people can run Windows on these new Intel-based Macs, we'll get a lot more business and people 'switching' to Macs..."

And so it happened.

Don't think there's a relationship there, with Apple supporting Windows and it making a HUGE difference for their products? Ok, take a trip further back in time to about 2001 or so when the iPod first appeared. Popular? Yes. Massive seller? To a point, sure.

What really lit a fire under the iPod sales and made it what it is today, the entire iPod ecosphere as popular as it is with probably a 90% command of the portable audio/media player market?

Windows... that's what did it.

When Apple faced the music (pun most definitely intended) and realized there were millions upon millions of Windows users out there that wanted iPods but couldn't get them because a) Apple never licensed OSX for use on anything but their own hardware (and it wouldn't work on PCs at that time anyway since Apple hardware was all PowerPC based) and b) iTunes didn't exist for Windows yet.

There's also the issue of the original iPods only being Firewire-based for connectivity but that too prompted a massive change in Apple and forced them into supporting USB for the iPods - hardy any numbers of Windows users except video professionals had Firewire cards/ports on their machines, it was and remains to this day a massively USB world.

If iPods to this day only worked with OSX because iTunes didn't have a Windows-based version, they would not command the market share they currently have. They would have a chunk of it, most certainly - that isn't even something to question, but it wouldn't be where it is today. There simply aren't that many actual Mac owners out there compared to PC owners. I know the "statistics" stay Macs have gained market share over the past 4+ years since the transition but I still don't see it myself.

More people own "personal computers" today than ever before, and the ratios and market share percentages to me have stayed basically the same, with Windows-based machines and a 95% market share, Apple and Macs taking up about 4% of the remainder, and the leftovers with 1% or so being Linux diehards, etc etc.

But without Windows and Apple having to - being forced to - support it with iTunes, they'd be hurting pretty seriously. Even Steve Jobs couldn't save Apple if it weren't for Windows...
 
If anyone has been to their licensing pages (eOpen, etc.) they can sometimes be overly complex for no reason.
 
Bahamut said:
If you go back and look at the past history pre-BootCamp, you'd note a given level of sales for Apple computers, even with apps like Parallels that had been around for some time (VMWare's Fusion came along much later) that allowed people to use Windows while running OSX (including VirtualPC which eventually got Connectix purchased by, guess who, Microsoft).

But as soon as BootCamp appeared, wham... you'd see a decided and quite marked rise began to appear on graphs/charts/etc. So, in some respects, Apple's computers are where they are today in terms of the minimal gains in market share over the past 4+ years since the Intel transition because - low and behold - Apple came to their senses and realized "Hey, man, if we can make it so people can run Windows on these new Intel-based Macs, we'll get a lot more business and people 'switching' to Macs..."

And so it happened.

Don't think there's a relationship there, with Apple supporting Windows and it making a HUGE difference for their products? Ok, take a trip further back in time to about 2001 or so when the iPod first appeared. Popular? Yes. Massive seller? To a point, sure.

What really lit a fire under the iPod sales and made it what it is today, the entire iPod ecosphere as popular as it is with probably a 90% command of the portable audio/media player market?

Windows... that's what did it.

When Apple faced the music (pun most definitely intended) and realized there were millions upon millions of Windows users out there that wanted iPods but couldn't get them because a) Apple never licensed OSX for use on anything but their own hardware (and it wouldn't work on PCs at that time anyway since Apple hardware was all PowerPC based) and b) iTunes didn't exist for Windows yet.

There's also the issue of the original iPods only being Firewire-based for connectivity but that too prompted a massive change in Apple and forced them into supporting USB for the iPods - hardy any numbers of Windows users except video professionals had Firewire cards/ports on their machines, it was and remains to this day a massively USB world.

If iPods to this day only worked with OSX because iTunes didn't have a Windows-based version, they would not command the market share they currently have. They would have a chunk of it, most certainly - that isn't even something to question, but it wouldn't be where it is today. There simply aren't that many actual Mac owners out there compared to PC owners. I know the "statistics" stay Macs have gained market share over the past 4+ years since the transition but I still don't see it myself.

More people own "personal computers" today than ever before, and the ratios and market share percentages to me have stayed basically the same, with Windows-based machines and a 95% market share, Apple and Macs taking up about 4% of the remainder, and the leftovers with 1% or so being Linux diehards, etc etc.

But without Windows and Apple having to - being forced to - support it with iTunes, they'd be hurting pretty seriously. Even Steve Jobs couldn't save Apple if it weren't for Windows...
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You're babbling. You're talking about one program Apple users are forced using but ignoring the programs that's built into Windows. iTunes just happens to be an integral part of Apples just as Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player is an integral part of Windows. Just because it's there doesn't mean you *have* to use it. Or are you a member of the EU commissioning panel?
 
Azhar said:
You're babbling. You're talking about one program Apple users are forced using but ignoring the programs that's built into Windows. iTunes just happens to be an integral part of Apples just as Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player is an integral part of Windows. Just because it's there doesn't mean you *have* to use it. Or are you a member of the EU commissioning panel?
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how is explorer or media player intragal?

i use firefox and vlc player...

don't say browsing files since you could call the apple version safari and its a wash at best
 
Ugh...market leaders should not mention competitors in their advertising. That only works if you aren't number one.
 
Sikkyu said:
how is explorer or media player intragal?

i use firefox and vlc player...

don't say browsing files since you could call the apple version safari and its a wash at best
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Wonderful! You can use them on Macs too! And like MediaMonkey on the PC, there are iTunes alternatives on OSX such as Play.

By integral, I meant it's part of the package. Deal with it, and if you don't like it, don't use it.
 
Bahamut said:
I know the "statistics" stay Macs have gained market share over the past 4+ years since the transition but I still don't see it myself.
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Go to just about any university, and see what the youn'uns are using nowadays.

Microsoft shouldn't have abandoned PC gaming. Gaming was a big advantage MS had over Macs for young computer buyers. So screwing over PC gamers has really hurt them with the current generation.
 
You're under the assumption that my meaning about Windows and iTunes was only as a media player - it wasn't. It was meant to convey the fact that you couldn't use an iPod on a Windows-based PC years ago because no other software existed (for quite a long time) that would allow you to organize/work with the media on the iPod except iTunes.

That changed with the introduction of a few apps like EphPod, Anapod Explorer, and even some plugins for WinAMP and foobar but those all took years to get anywhere, and what did Apple do after time passed?

They started encrypting the information on the iPod libraries so no third party apps could work with it anymore, but eventually - after a period of time passed - somebody found out how to get around that little 'feature' as well.

The iPod started the current "renaissance" at Apple but it's only because Apple was forced - and make no mistake, they were forced into it or else they'd be in seriously bad shape today if they even still existed - to support Windows as a platform so the iPod would reach a greater audience.

Sell a few hundred thousand iPods to the few hundred thousand, maybe a million or two Mac owners in 2001-2002, or sell millions of iPods by creating iTunes for Windows for the millions upon millions of Windows users.

Can't fault them for making a good decision there... even if it was forced upon them, much the same that the Intel transition was. They simply had no choice in both situations but to do what was necessary to keep the company going...

It's paid off over time, and I have some respect for that, I do. I just have no respect for the elitist attitude they maintain which simply isn't deserved...
 
Sabrewulf165 said:
Uh... that's not a "site", it's one tab on a Windows 7 product page. Trolling for pageviews? :confused:
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Pretty much. It would be disingenuous to completely ignore that there is a Mac vs PC debate, so they threw a tab up there to reiterate some more benefits of the Windows-PC platform.

LeninGHOLA said:
Yea, seems pretty simple from marketing perspective. I don't see the controversy.
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Exactly. It's just marketing, and pretty understated at that.

Azhar said:
Microsoft is truly for all platforms. I think Microsoft should leave the PC vs Apple contest to HP, Dell and the others. They're just lighting a match under Apple for no good purpose.
Click to expand...
You actively promote those vendors who make you the most money. There's no match--you'll note PC vs. Mac is only mentioned on the tab. They don't go after Apple at all in the main text.
 
So in a non-hyped fashion Microsoft is promoting Windows, now that's refreshing! Macs overall are simply falling the PC support for the latest and greatest technology and it's more than reasonable thing to point out.
 
I'm not worried until Microsoft starts trendy commercials of PCs and macs arguing... Who would represent Microsoft if they did that anyways?
 
Proxy said:
Yup, too bad the average idiot does not get this. "It's a Mac, it just works!"
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By and large, that's an accurate assessment, at least compared to a Windows box. Like many of you, I serve as the de-facto tech support guy for friends and family. I've even built Windows boxes for business and personal use for friends. Right now of the folks I know, the Windows/Mac division (in terms of number of machines) is just about equal.

One guess which side is responsible for 80+% of my support load.

Windows 7 is dramatically improved, but they've still got a ways to go. I dream of the day that Microsoft pounds a stake through the heart of the Registry. I hate that thing.
 
Bahamut said:
But without Windows and Apple having to - being forced to - support it with iTunes, they'd be hurting pretty seriously. Even Steve Jobs couldn't save Apple if it weren't for Windows...
Click to expand...
That's a truly bizarre argument. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Windows simply didn't exist. Let's assume that Apple/OS X would command ~90% of the computer market and the rest comprised of various other operating systems. How would that have affected the iPod? Would it have failed due to the absence of Windows? Somehow, I don't think so.

Windows is the most popular, most widely-used OS in the world. If Windows simply didn't exist, some other OS would be the most popular, most widely-used OS in the world. Maybe that would be OS X. Maybe that would be something else. But you can't say that Apple's success is due to Windows. If Ubuntu had the 90% market share, don't you think that Apple would have released iTunes for Linux?
 
BladeVenom said:
Microsoft shouldn't have abandoned PC gaming. Gaming was a big advantage MS had over Macs for young computer buyers. So screwing over PC gamers has really hurt them with the current generation.
Click to expand...

B-B-B-But PC gaming is dying, remember? I mean, that's what people have been saying for years now?

In all seriousness, now that Steam is available for Mac, the whole "Mac's don't game" argument is even more stale than it was before, and it was pretty stale before because games were being ported to Mac albeit in a more slow manner.

It doesn't help that the best gpu an iMac has is a 5750. The baseline Mac Pro (which is more dollar than most people will spend on a computer for gaming let alone someone as casual as an Apple gamer) only has a 5770, the best you can get there is a 5870 for another $200.

dramsey said:
I dream of the day that Microsoft pounds a stake through the heart of the Registry. I hate that thing.
Click to expand...

Another registry hate post I don't understand. You know the last time I had a registry problem? Windows 95b. Windows 95b was a giant piece of shit in general, let alone having a registry problem with it. What exactly are you doing that is hosing your registry so badly?

It's like the poor virus argument as to why people should buy a Mac over a Windows computer. Really? When's the last time you got a virus? I honestly don't remember the last time I got a virus dating back to Windows 98.
 
phide said:
That's a truly bizarre argument. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Windows simply didn't exist. Let's assume that Apple/OS X would command ~90% of the computer market and the rest comprised of various other operating systems. How would that have affected the iPod? Would it have failed due to the absence of Windows? Somehow, I don't think so.

Windows is the most popular, most widely-used OS in the world. If Windows simply didn't exist, some other OS would be the most popular, most widely-used OS in the world. Maybe that would be OS X. Maybe that would be something else. But you can't say that Apple's success is due to Windows. If Ubuntu had the 90% market share, don't you think that Apple would have released iTunes for Linux?
Click to expand...

There's nothing bizarre about it. And turning it around and giving Apple the majority wouldn't fit the premise of my statement because then they'd never have a need for help from another OS - 750 million computers or more would have OSX on 'em... which automagically works with iPods/iPhones/iPads... see how silly trying to turn it around is?

Apple sold a mere handful (in the big picture) of iPods before they introduced support for them for Windows - they sold thousands upon thousands upon thousands of them, yes, but not until they introduced Windows support for iPods did they start to sell millions upon millions. If they had NEVER created iTunes for Windows, it would have taken them the better part of this decade to make a dent at all, and it would have crippled them at this point in time.

The success of the iPods because of Windows-based personal computer support is what truly introduced the iPods to the masses of personal computer owners, and not the minutiae aka the Mac community which is still pretty damned small.

The point - which you caught at the end with the Ubuntu thing - was that Apple couldn't do it alone because of the tiny market share they STILL maintain. Adding support to Windows for iPods is what really opened the floodgates and brought them a shitload of additional cash flow they never would have seen or had access to if they're simply stuck to their closed-minded platform.

If today, years later, there was no way to make any iPod, any iPhone, or any iPad work on a Windows-based personal computer, do you really think they'd be anywhere near as popular as they actually are? It couldn't happen because there aren't enough Mac owners to support the sheer numbers of iPods, iPhones, and iPads that actually do exist.

Only with Windows-based personal computers adding bazillions of potential owners could Apple have gotten to where it is today... it's really just that simple and yes I know you and others will always counter with "no it's not" but, really, it is.
 
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