AMD's ATI Radeon HD 5830 Review @ [H]

Don't forget that ATI cards were released at a cheaper price but because of the high demand, they increased the price, that is basic economic. If you want to blame anyone, you should blame the people who bought all the cards, and the people who couldn't come out with an alternative product.

If you have a problem with the pricing then don't buy the card, soon the price will be adjusted if there is no demand. Stop saying something like "thats a failure in most peoples book" since AMD can price their card that high because people will still be buying them. If there is no demand then the price will drop accordingly.

AMD HD5000 is in a league of their own, HD5830 is priced very competitively compared to other HD5000 cards. If you want to buy something else like the HD4890 then that is your decision, I can understand why [H] gave the HD 5830 a gold award. The HD 5830 has no other competition in that price range if you want to have all the latest tech right now.
 
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alg7_munif said:
Don't forget that ATI cards were released at a cheaper price but because of the high demand, they increased the price, that is basic economic. If you want to blame anyone, you should blame the people who bought all the cards, and the people who couldn't come out with an alternative product.

If you have a problem with the pricing then don't buy the card, soon the price will be adjusted if there is no demand. Stop saying something like "thats a failure in most peoples book" since AMD can price their cardd that high because people will still be buying them. If there is no demand then the price will drop accordingly.
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So ATI is not responsible for raising it's own prices? "Magical economics" held a gun to it's head and said raise the prices or we shoot you?

Sorry, but ATI is a company like any other and they are looking to maximize profits. The only reason ATI raised it's prices was to increase it's profits. ATI does not care for you or anyone else, anything it does is to increase it's profits. Anything else and your lying to your self.
 
vengence said:
So ATI is not responsible for raising it's own prices? "Magical economics" held a gun to it's head and said raise the prices or we shoot you?

Sorry, but ATI is a company like any other and they are looking to maximize profits. The only reason ATI raised it's prices was to increase it's profits. ATI does not care for you or anyone else, anything it does is to increase it's profits. Anything else and your lying to your self.
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No one holds a gun to your head forcing you to buy the cards. Even if you don't buy the cards, there are enough people out there that are willing to buy the card so there is nothing wrong with the price. Feel free to buy an alternative product like the HD4800 or GTX200 if you want to but if you want the latest tech then it is your own decision to make, AMD never forced you to buy their cards. It is just like when G80 was out, the G80 is in a league of its own, the price stayed high for a long time since people were willing to spend their money on the cards.
 
alg7_munif said:
No one holds a gun to your head forcing you to buy the cards. Even if you don't buy the cards, there are enough people out there that are willing to buy the card so there is nothing wrong with the price. Feel free to buy an alternative product like the HD4800 or GTX200 if you want to but if you want the latest tech then it is your own decision to make, AMD never forced you to buy their cards. It is just like when G80 was out, the G80 is in a league of its own, the price stayed high for a long time since people were willing to spend their money on the cards.
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I argued ATI's motives are based on profit. Next time read my post.
 
alg7_munif said:
Please learn more about economics and production capacity, after that we can talk again ;)

Edit: Let me help you, this will happen if they didn't adjust their price according to the demand:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1467271
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The reason they raise prices is not to keep products in stock. They raised prices to make more money. Period. They don't give a shit about keeping products in stock they only want to maximize thier profits. In this case, based on thier supply and demand curve, the amount of product avaliable, and the production cost for those products they have selected this point to maximize profits.

I'm sorry this is so hard for you to understand.
 
vengence said:
The reason they raise prices is not to keep products in stock. They raised prices to make more money. Period. They don't give a shit about keeping products in stock they only want to maximize thier profits. In this case, based on thier supply and demand curve, the amount of product avaliable, and the production cost for those products they have selected this point to maximize profits.

I'm sorry this is so hard for you to understand.
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Like I said before, please learn more about economics and production capacity, then we can talk. Let say if you can only produce 10 units a month but you keep getting orders of 15 units a month, what would happen in 4 months?
 
alg7_munif said:
Like I said before, please learn more about economics and production capacity, then we can talk. Let say if you can only produce 10 units a month but you keep getting orders of 15 units a month, what would happen in 4 months?
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:facepalm:
 
Pricing wise it makes complete sense since their chosen price point is roughly the middle point between current 5770 and 5850 prices. However, I still argue that it performs closer to 5770 than 5850 so the pricing is not justified. My proof is all the reviews from the other sites since [H] left out the apples to apples. As feedback to the [H] review, I say it would help to include the apples to apples between 5770, 5830, and 5850 so readers can judge for ourselves whether ATI's MSRP or even your own stated price (when you said $225 at least) would have been suitable.

I know I've posted similar posts through out this topic, but I worry that it would get lost in all this moronic bickering done by some individuals. I really want to see the apples to apples (@ 1920x1080 or 1200) since there is significant amounts of evidence (majority of the other review sites) which disagree with your claim, Brent. Most readers will consult multiple sources and when there's an anomaly they want it investigated so that is what I'm asking of you.
 
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vengence said:
The reason they raise prices is not to keep products in stock. They raised prices to make more money. Period. They don't give a shit about keeping products in stock they only want to maximize thier profits. In this case, based on thier supply and demand curve, the amount of product avaliable, and the production cost for those products they have selected this point to maximize profits.

I'm sorry this is so hard for you to understand.
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Wait... A company doing business in a capitalistic country is trying to make a profit?? Honestly, why does this come across as a "shocker" to anyone. If there is money to be made in a lucrative market mix, someone will take advantage of it.
 
sniperbob151 said:
Wait... A company doing business in a capitalistic country is trying to make a profit?? Honestly, why does this come across as a "shocker" to anyone. If there is money to be made in a lucrative market mix, someone will take advantage of it.
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Shocking isn't it? Yet we see amazing posts like this one:
piscian18 said:
I'd like to believe that AMD/ATi aren't about making money so much as risk taking and innovation.
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Why does everyone assume AMD is forcing it's partners to raise their prices? So AMD is telling XFX what price to set their cards at? Sapphire? ASUS? Powercolor? I wasn't aware that they had to do whatever AMD told them. I thought AMD sold them cards/chips at a pricepoint and then let them add their own margin onto them, silly me I should be hating AMD those mafia bastards!
 
alg7_munif said:
English is not your first language isn't it?
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You continue to bait and failing to read my posts or failing to actually respond to them. If you decide to grow up and want to have a civil, adult discussion let me know.
 
4890 most likely be faster due to lack of DX11 support, but the same game in DX9 mode should run faster in an 5850 (sure reviews have been done to compare 5850 and 4890 in DX9 mode)

5830 needs to be around $210 or £150 or less, if its any more, may had just get an 5850 for $60/£50 more, it really depends on how much the 5830 really going to be sold for in the end where it is not right now

is the buzzing quite normal on the 5850 when under load or just using scroll bars on windows as my GTX280 did it as well but was as loud
 
OldPueblo said:
Why does everyone assume AMD is forcing it's partners to raise their prices? So AMD is telling XFX what price to set their cards at? Sapphire? ASUS? Powercolor? I wasn't aware that they had to do whatever AMD told them. I thought AMD sold them cards/chips at a pricepoint and then let them add their own margin onto them, silly me I should be hating AMD those mafia bastards!
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XFX and other partners do set thier own prices. However AMD officially raised the MSRP of the 5850. Technically, AMD did not "force" the partners to raise the prices, they only raised the MSRP. Also, technically speaking, the partners don't set the prices only MSRPs of their products, the retailers/e-tailers do that.
 
Brent, can you please revisit the review and add an apples to apples comparison? I know this takes time and you are probably working on the 5870 eyefinity edition card, but many people will be happy to see how this stacks up against its peer 5770 and 5850 cards. thx in advance
 
Firstly, "I'd like to believe that Jen-Hsun Huang is gay" is not the same as "I believe that Jen-Hsun Huang is gay"

Secondly, only someone stupid would think that AMD didn't want to maximize their profit when they launched the HD 5800, before the increased price. Obviously they didn't expect that the demand would be so high, probably they were expecting a price drop on the GTX200 series or they were not expecting that nVidia would be late to the market.

They knew that if they price the cards too high, nobody will buy them and if the price is too low they will not get the highest profit that they can get from the cards, that's why the came up with the original price. After a while they needed to adjust the pricing since the demand is higher than what they expected.
 
vengence said:
XFX and other partners do set thier own prices. However AMD officially raised the MSRP of the 5850. Technically, AMD did not "force" the partners to raise the prices, they only raised the MSRP. Also, technically speaking, the partners don't set the prices only MSRPs of their products, the retailers/e-tailers do that.
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Fair enough, but my point is still there is wiggle room it isn't just AMD setting prices. And if they are in demand, they have a right to make money, it isn't as if there aren't cards at every pricepoint now. :D This is hardly the gouging we've seen in the past.
 
alg7_munif said:
Firstly, "I'd like to believe that Jen-Hsun Huang is gay" is not the same as "I believe that Jen-Hsun Huang is gay"

Secondly, only someone stupid would think that AMD didn't want to maximize their profit when they launched the HD 5800, before the increased price. Obviously they didn't expect that the demand would be so high, probably they were expecting a price drop on the GTX200 series or they were not expecting that nVidia would be late to the market.

They knew that if they price the cards too high, nobody will buy them and if the price is too low they will not get the highest profit that they can get from the cards, that's why the came up with the original price. After a while they needed to adjust the pricing since the demand is higher than what they expected.
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So ATI just wants to maximize profits. No shit, I said that a bajillion posts ago.
 
OldPueblo said:
Fair enough, but my point is still there is wiggle room it isn't just AMD setting prices. And if they are in demand, they have a right to make money, it isn't as if there aren't cards at every pricepoint now. :D This is hardly the gouging we've seen in the past.
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Never said it was gouging, and as it is a purely luxury product I would have no problem if they decided to gouge people with it. Only said they were in the buisness to make money.
 
vengence said:
So ATI just wants to maximize profits. No shit, I said that a bajillion posts ago.
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So they increased the price because they want to maximize their profit? Before the price increase they did not want to maximize their profit? :rolleyes:
 
When I stated that I'd like to believe AMD/ATi isn't completely out for profit I didn't mean to intone they hate money and are just starving artists looking for love. I just meant in a viewpoint that [H] seems to be supporting there wasn't a need for Eyefinity or even really a customer base. They could have sold the 5 series on their own merit of speed and DX11 support, but there are obviously some inspired engineers at AMD/ATi that aren't looking for profit. They took a risk in bringing Eyefinity to the market and continuing to supporting it. It's a great technology that needs our support in the budding stages at least until Nvidia joins in.
 
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OldPueblo said:
Fair enough, but my point is still there is wiggle room it isn't just AMD setting prices. And if they are in demand, they have a right to make money, it isn't as if there aren't cards at every pricepoint now. :D This is hardly the gouging we've seen in the past.
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I don't think there is any price gouging happening, however Amd does set the MSRP and they charge a set amount of money on their card kits and GPUs.

Amd started charging 20 dollars extra on their gpu in October because of supply constraints (TSMC had fab issues that were supposed to be fixt by the launch, but were not), which meant the Vendors had to increase the cost by 20 dollars or they would be losing profit. Those supply constraints have been corrected, but the price hasn't come down and we all know it will not until Nvidia can make some competition (which looks pretty grim at the "rumored" projected cost of their Fermi cards)

Most companies will follow posted MSRP's, especially if the product is in demand and try not to undercut each other (they ain't dumb :) ) However, as a smart consumer, I know what the original MSRP was and the circumstances of why it went up, and also why it hasn't gone down. In the end, I'll let other ppl buy now and wait till the prices drop.
 
eldertru said:
Brent, can you please revisit the review and add an apples to apples comparison? I know this takes time and you are probably working on the 5870 eyefinity edition card, but many people will be happy to see how this stacks up against its peer 5770 and 5850 cards. thx in advance
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Agreed! I'd like to apoligize for mixing up Kyle and Brent since I've been demanding Kyle show us the apples to apples when Brent wrote the review. :eek: Got mixed up when Kyle showed the comparison to 4890.

An apples to apples is useful to show where on the spectrum between the 5770 and 5850 the 5830 especially when Brent's claim contradicts other reviews out there.
 
piscian18 said:
When I stated that I'd like to believe AMD/ATi isn't completely out for profit I didn't mean to intone they hate money and are just starving artists looking for love. I just meant in a viewpoint that [H] seems to be supporting there wasn't a need for Eyefinity or even really a customer base. They could have sold the 5 series on their own merit of speed and DX11 support, but there are obviously some inspired engineers at AMD/ATi that aren't looking for profit. They took a risk in bringing Eyefinity to the market and continuing to supporting it. It's a great technology that needs our support in the budding stages at least until Nvidia joins in.
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I disagree competely. ATI took a risk in adding eyenfinity because they thought it if it suceeded they would sell more video cards. If you read the articles that were written about Eyenfinity they worked hard to keep it a secret. If they wanted to see it for the "good of gaming" then they would have leaked it a long time ago and Nvidia would have had a similar capability months ago. They kept it a secret specifically so only they would have it at launch and it would sell graphics cards.
 
Can you guys please take that bickering to PM's, it really has nothing to do with the review or the article. Every for-profit company's goal is to make a dollar, why would anyone think that AMD/ATI would be any exception? Supply and Demand are what pushes prices up or down, and right now they can charge what they are charging because Nvidia has no competing products, it's really that simple.

Sounds like you guys are more interested in discussing a non issue than the more serious issue of a product here getting a gold award it doesn't deserve by any means.
 
vengence said:
XFX and other partners do set thier own prices. However AMD officially raised the MSRP of the 5850. Technically, AMD did not "force" the partners to raise the prices, they only raised the MSRP. Also, technically speaking, the partners don't set the prices only MSRPs of their products, the retailers/e-tailers do that.
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No. They started charging 20 dollars more per kit on the 5850. At that time, there was a Supply issue from TSMC. That supply issue has been fixed, however, DRAM prices are still much higher than they were last year and that hasn't really changed.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/...es_Pricing_of_New_High_End_Graphics_Card.html


ATI, graphics business unit of Advanced Micro Devices, on Monday said that it would increase the price of its ATI Radeon HD 5850 graphics processing unit (GPU) by $20+ due to overwhelming demand towards the new graphics cards as well as increased costs of components and logistics.

“Due to the accelerated ramp of the ATI Radeon HD 5800 series products to meet overwhelming demand at a time when a recovering computer industry is limiting supply on some parts, AMD is incurring higher component, memory and logistics costs. While many of our products are impacted by these increased costs to varying degrees, we are only adjusting pricing on the ATI Radeon HD 5850 product at this time,” said Jay Marsden, a spokesperson for the company said.
 
Fail said:
Can you guys please take that bickering to PM's, it really has nothing to do with the review or the article. Every for-profit company's goal is to make a dollar, why would anyone think that AMD/ATI would be any exception? Supply and Demand are what pushes prices up or down, and right now they can charge what they are charging because Nvidia has no competing products, it's really that simple.

Sounds like you guys are more interested in discussing a non issue than the more serious issue of a product here getting a gold award it doesn't deserve by any means.
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Exactly my point, every company will try their best to get the maximum amount of profit that they can get so they will try to push the price as high as they can. When they set a price on their product, that is the price that they believe will bring most profit for them. If there is a higher demand than they expected then they will adjust the price accordingly.

As for the gold award, if you look at the competing products which are the other HD 5000 card, then the HD 5830 is priced according to its performance.They can get away with the price because the card doesn't really have a viable alternative at that price point.
 
Of course AMD has raised the MSRP for this part, and they have every right to do so. For now, they are binning parts - using chips that don't qualify for 5850 status. As yields improve, they will have to start taking chips that do indeed work as 5850s and use them in 5830s to meet demand, which costs them money. Since they have no competition at any price point, they are maximizing their profits, plain and simple.

Also, AMD only raised the MSRP. This is not the same as raising prices.
 
alg7_munif said:
Exactly my point, every company will try their best to get the maximum amount of profit that they can get so they will try to push the price as high as they can. When they set a price on their product, that is the price that they believe will bring most profit for them. If there is a higher demand than they expected then they will adjust the price accordingly.

As for the gold award, if you look at the competing products which are the other HD 5000 card, then the HD 5830 is priced according to its performance.They can get away with the price because the card doesn't really have a viable alternative at that price point.
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Your point has been obvious for the last 20 posts. It is a point I have never contended as it is in full agreement with my original post. If you'd stop the internet road rage for a min and read you'd understand that. Not that you are going to read this post when you have yet to read any of the others.
 
eldertru said:
No. They started charging 20 dollars more per kit on the 5850. At that time, there was a Supply issue from TSMC. That supply issue has been fixed, however, DRAM prices are still much higher than they were last year and that hasn't really changed.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/...es_Pricing_of_New_High_End_Graphics_Card.html


ATI, graphics business unit of Advanced Micro Devices, on Monday said that it would increase the price of its ATI Radeon HD 5850 graphics processing unit (GPU) by $20+ due to overwhelming demand towards the new graphics cards as well as increased costs of components and logistics.

“Due to the accelerated ramp of the ATI Radeon HD 5800 series products to meet overwhelming demand at a time when a recovering computer industry is limiting supply on some parts, AMD is incurring higher component, memory and logistics costs. While many of our products are impacted by these increased costs to varying degrees, we are only adjusting pricing on the ATI Radeon HD 5850 product at this time,” said Jay Marsden, a spokesperson for the company said.
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They increased what they were charging for the kits and the MSRP at the same time. It is stated in both articles.
 
PiSquared said:
Of course AMD has raised the MSRP for this part, and they have every right to do so. For now, they are binning parts - using chips that don't qualify for 5850 status. As yields improve, they will have to start taking chips that do indeed work as 5850s and use them in 5830s to meet demand, which costs them money. Since they have no competition at any price point, they are maximizing their profits, plain and simple.

Also, AMD only raised the MSRP. This is not the same as raising prices.
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Exactly, if you want to blame someone for the high price then blame those people who are still buying these cards at the higher price, and the people who couldn't bring a viable alternative to the table. If you don't agree with the price then don't buy it, sooner or later when the demand slows down then the price will be adjusted again.
 
vengence said:
They increased what they were charging for the kits and the MSRP at the same time. It is stated in both articles.
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Then I stand corrected on the price issue - thank you for pointing that out. Unfortunately, with no competition in any bracket, AMD is essentially using early adopters to fatten their wallets before NVIDIA can respond. They have every right to do so, just as I have the right (which I will use) to wait for NVIDIA to drive down prices. :)
 
PiSquared said:
Then I stand corrected on the price issue - thank you for pointing that out.
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no worries :)

PiSquared said:
Unfortunately, with no competition in any bracket, AMD is essentially using early adopters to fatten their wallets before NVIDIA can respond. They have every right to do so, just as I have the right (which I will use) to wait for NVIDIA to drive down prices. :)
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Yep. It's the same story as the last generation only we changed the names and the price point some. It'll be the same story next generation only we'll change the price point and the names (maybe).
 
kac77 said:
You don't like facts much do you? If you don't like the reality of the situation you don't get to make up your own. You know what the Nvidia's cards launched at. There's no point in trying to pretend the 285/295 released as the top end cards when the GTX200 series debuted, "Everyone" knows that's not the case.Nvidia released the 280 (single-gpu) at a price of over $600 at launch. This is a fact. ATI never released a single gpu solution 4 series or 5 at over $600. You can make a different argument if you want, but trying to say that both of them price video cards the same is just plain ridiculous. You can go to Newegg now and see that's not the case. They don't.

At this point I don't have a toll booth and a draw bridge to give you so have a nice day. :)
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wow are you really that ignorant? Nvidia had planned on the gtx280 being their top card where ATI has not planned on a single gpu top card since before the 3000 series. ATI is charging just as much now for their top two cards as Nvidia did when they thought there was no competition. :rolleyes:
 
cannondale06 said:
wow are you really that ignorant? Nvidia had planned on the gtx280 being their top card where ATI has not planned on a single gpu top card since before the 3000 series. ATI is charging just as much now for their top two cards as Nvidia did when they thought there was no competition. :rolleyes:
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Let me put it simply, since you seem to be ignoring how 5970 is positioned.

GTX260 is faster than 9800GTX (previous top GPU), only in rare cases slower
GTX280 is faster than GTX260.

HD5850 is faster than HD4890 (previous top GPU), only in rare cases slower
HD5870 is faster than HD5850

This leaves HD5970, essentially 5850x2, in a class of its own by comparison. 5970 was not a launch product but it followed more closely because it could be done without a silicon revision. GTX295 is based on GT200b, which came long after the massive price-cuts on GTX260/80 cards. With a GTX280 at $600+ at launch, just how much do you think nVidia would've charged for a GTX295 had it been feasible at the time? Or do you think they would have lowered prices because GTX280 would no longer have been the flagship? We'll never know that, so we have to deal with the facts as they exist.

I'm not saying the 5k cards are cheap, but for new tech they do provide better value than GT200 did at launch.
 
cannondale06 said:
wow are you really that ignorant?
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Nope that spotlight belongs to you and you alone.

cannondale06 said:
Nvidia had planned on the gtx280 being their top card where ATI has not planned on a single gpu top card since before the 3000 series. ATI is charging just as much now for their top two cards as Nvidia did when they thought there was no competition. :rolleyes:
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Yeah uh huh. Sure they did... on planet Cannondale. Here on planet Earth we all know what ATI released the 5xxx series with in Sept 2009, which was not the 5970, and the prices they released the 5850 and 5870 with. But I'm sure if you keep repeating yourself eventually you'll put yourself in a trance and eventually be able to join us.
 
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