Vista hysteria among general public out of control

[eeyrjmr]

Umm...Maple isn't that expensive in the US...so you must be getting ripped off... (The Professional edition of version 11 is just under $2k, so about 1k pounds...)

is it? last time I got a quote through (~2years ago now) was quoted little under £10k
mmm

And that's part of the problem with the Windows environment: it is expected that everything just work when things change and that isn't always possible. The more backwards compatability you try to build into it, the harder it is for things to "just work" wihtout issues because that adds complexity. (A lot of older 16-bit programs didn't work when XP first launched...like a lot of my old DOS-based games.)

I was under the impression that was why MS bought that virtual-machine company, sure break compatability native, but have a more virtual-machine interface for hte older programs.
We are still using DOS at work simply because some of our ARINC software is 16bit and won't run in even Windows9x. Can't get it re-written because the ARINC card doesn't have drivers for anything over 16bit (and forefor you say upgrade your hardware... ever worked in the aerospace industry? if something works and is acredited it aint changing for the life of a product... 35years)

 

[djnes]

point still stands djnes and the rest of the vistaboys do take the stance that Vista has no problems and if someone does post a problem they do get shot down with such terminology (although I don't see what is soo "uncertain" abt WMP11 not installing... it either does it it doesn't so maybe a missuse of "FUD" by the vistaboys is going on..??)

Hmmm...so how would that explain my very own threads that I've started to discuss my own Vista issues? Foot...meet mouth.

If we really want to talk about trolling, what better person to discuss it with than you. If we searched for any Windows vs Linux thread, you would surely be there extolling the greatness of Linux, while bashing anything to do with Windows. So unless today is "Be a Hypocrit Day", you might want to use your head a little bit. You are the very definition of the word.

 

[nigerian_businessman]

Linux: Is most notably not ready out-of-the-box; it's made headway, but still far behind. In this instance, that's acceptable, but for a Windows-based OS to ever need configuring or to give a Winodws-based OS the same respect when troubleshootng or configuring is "Unacceptable".

That's funny, cause Linux works for me out-of-the-box. All of my hardware was detected. It came with a good suite of software that all worked fine, save for legal issues which were rectified by downloading an installer out of a repository. Literally took me less time than figuring out how to turn off UAC. Do you see how little that does to change your mind about Linux's shortcomings? Do you understand now why all this "Runs great for me" nonsense does nothing to change the minds of those having problems? I'm not saying Linux is perfect for everyone any more than I'm saying Vista is so horrible as to not be for anyone. All I'm saying is that Vista isn't worth upgrading to from XP at this point, and won't be for a long time.

And why bother troubleshooting it? What will I gain from it? It would be easier to just reinstall XP over it, and I would be happier with the result. I won't go to the same extent to fix all of Vista's issues because there is literally -nothing- in it for me. In my case, security isn't improved. I never had a problem with security on XP because I'm not an idiot. In my case, Aero isn't an improvement. I liked WindowBlinds and WindowFX better, it was customizable and had more options. In my case, Superfetch isn't an issue. I could give a shit less if an application loads 5-10 seconds faster. When I ran XP I never encountered an application that loaded so slowly that I thought to myself "Wow, I wish this would open about 10 seconds faster, that would really improve things". Readyboost is a gimmick and a stupid one at that. For the price of Vista and a readyboost-capable memory card, everyone could have at least 2gb if not 4gb of ram (depending on the Vista edition).

[*]XP: Had far more issues at it's conception, with far more incompatibilities, and far more need to do the research. This has been documented, and is most noteable as the need to SP2 arose. Furthermore, everything good that the same SP2 offered has been included with Windows Vista; but for an assortment of reasons it is "Unacceptable"

I ran Windows XP from Beta 2 up until a month ago. I never encountered the incompatibilities you speak of. Perhaps thats because I typically don't buy things as soon as they're released, I don't know. I won't say I've never had to do research, but tweaking XP was a matter of taking an OS that was already damn near perfect and just making it suit my needs. With Vista I feel as though I've got to fight the OS just to get it to do what it's predecessor did in a much simpler fashion.

Instead, we have users with issues no longer making off-the-wall thread titles like, "OMGGGZZ HELPPZZ PLZ" but now self-proclaimed experts on all things OS who are more arrogant about troubleshooting then helpful.

Just my .02, take it for what you will....

There's arrogance all around. Self-proclaimed Vista experts who are more arrogant about troubleshooting than helpful. Judge not, lest ye be...

 

[LhasaCM]

Well the original statement had duby stating that the phrase FUD is chucked around. Fair enough "Becouse you call them trolls and liars." was the only part highlighted and djnes prob hasn't called someone a liar (jury out on troll... called people lazy mind...)

point still stands djnes and the rest of the vistaboys do take the stance that Vista has no problems and if someone does post a problem they do get shot down with such terminology (although I don't see what is soo "uncertain" abt WMP11 not installing... it either does it it doesn't so maybe a missuse of "FUD" by the vistaboys is going on..??)

the Vistaboys then wander why people come out and start slating vista

It was not clear that Vista N was in use, so the concept of installing WMP11 seemed odd (in the US, it is just part of the OS so installing it would seem an exercise in futility). And while there are zealots on each side of the fence, the problems arise not when people say there's a problem, but when an extreme stance is taken. When people say "Vista is broken" it is reasonable to wonder "why?" Supporting an opinion and saying why something doesn't work (or why something does work) is helpful to a wider array of people. When that doesn't happen, on either side of a discussion, that's when shouting reigns...

 

[eeyrjmr]

--delted--

 

[calebb]

That's funny, cause Linux works for me out-of-the-box.

Check out this article:
http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI5OCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

 

[Rembrandt]

I Beta tested 2000, XP and Vista and they all had problems when they first were brought out. They all had driver problems and their own quirks. I will look at Vista when SP1 comes out.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Check out this article:
http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI5OCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

Just like Vista just works for some people, linux just works for others (for me and linux everything does including printing... because I did my homework).

HOWEVER... there are a large % of people for whom Vista and/or linux doesn't just work.
Difference being Vista is going to get to a "just works" situation alot faster then linux...

hang on havn't I already said this

 

[brucedeluxe169]

i've had numerous application crashes happen in Vista, same goes for my girlfriend. At this point I'm guessing that there are just too many drivers and such that aren't polished enough for Vista, because I've used OEM systems that were pretty solid that had Vista on them.

That said though..... I did uninstall Vista from my main system, as it *does* run like crap on anything less than a dual core with 2gb of ram.... and I'm sorry, but my single core/1gb doesnt cut it in the Vista world. I get way better performance using the same system in XP/2000/and especially in Linux. Also.... I'm sorry, but anyone that thinks the new Vista UI is better than XPs needs to have their head examined. There are so many options and settings that were given different names/locations/buried into submenus *for no reason*!!!

Seriously, finding your way around is a real bitch, and even after you figure out where everything is, its still a pain to get there. I'm sorry, but for the average person, learning the Vista UI is more of a pain than learning the XP UI, or even the Ubuntu UI.

And yea, Aero blows real hard. Flip 3d is absolute useless bullshit, the transition/fade effects make the OS seem like its just one big lag fest, and other than that, there isn't anything else to Aero aside from the 3d thumbnails. Sheesh, talk about a fuck up.

 

[nigerian_businessman]

I hate these speed comparisons because they are SO hard to prove in the real world. Yes, Vista Home Premium out of the box likes more RAM than say Ubuntu 7 out of the box. But before such a comparison is truly valid in my opinion, you'd need to install LinuxMCE first off, Beryl or some 3D desktop, not mention tablet and speech capability to the Ubuntu install, or turn all that of in Vista.

I use Beryl, I have MythTV installed, and it's MUCH FASTER. Somehow I strongly doubt that installing speech recognition software or support for a tablet PC would in any way impact the performance of a desktop PC running Linux.

Turn all those things off, and Vista runs just fine with 1GB. I actually setup an install of Ubuntu the other day, on the same machine that I have Vista on (I’ve got a hard drive caddy on it so I can easily swap hard drives) and the initial install went fine.

I don't have speech recognition or Tablet PC functionality turned on and I'm still having issues, random unexplainable slowdowns, etc. LinuxMCE is nice but not my cup of tea, I prefer doing things my own way instead of having them done for me, although I have all of the functionality of LinuxMCE on my system. And it's still faster than Vista.

To be honest, there is way more FUD being spread about Windows, and Vista in particular than any OS ever. Think about it. Seen any TV ads lamenting UAC? Spyware? Out of the box ease of use? Didn’t think so.

LOL.

Whatever.

 

[brucedeluxe169]

Difference being Vista is going to get to a "just works" situation alot faster then linux...

hang on havn't I already said this

thats if you are talking *strictly* OEM side for the general public here. In most ppl's experiences, Linux *just works* much better than Windows. I mean, its simply an install/boot from live CD and you are pretty much ready to go. With Windows it does take a fair amount of tweaking to really get it to a usable point.

Ironically, printing seems to be one of the former strong points that windows has lost with the release of vista, since so many ppl's printers just dont work in it

 

[calebb]

Also.... I'm sorry, but anyone that thinks the new Vista UI is better than XPs needs to have their head examined.

You're definitely entitled to your opinion, but attack arguments, not people

 

[calebb]

thats if you are talking *strictly* OEM side for the general public here. In most ppl's experiences, Linux *just works* much better than Windows. I mean, its simply an install/boot from live CD and you are pretty much ready to go. With Windows it does take a fair amount of tweaking to really get it to a usable point.

Ironically, printing seems to be one of the former strong points that windows has lost with the release of vista, since so many ppl's printers just dont work in it

No, same goes for custom PCs actually.

http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI5OCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

 

[nigerian_businessman]

Check out this article:
http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI5OCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

Did you read the rest of the statement before just highlighting what you wanted and posting a link?

I'M NOT ADVOCATING LINUX FOR EVERYONE.

Fuck.

If anything I'm arguing XP's case more than Linux. FOR ME Linux is great. Thats because I've been using it for a long time, over a decade. For everyone else, it's an option but not one I would sit here and defend as 'ready for the world' in the way everyone is defending Vista.

 

[calebb]

Did you read the rest of the statement before just highlighting what you wanted and posting a link?

I'M NOT ADVOCATING LINUX FOR EVERYONE.

Fuck.

If anything I'm arguing XP's case more than Linux. FOR ME Linux is great. Thats because I've been using it for a long time, over a decade. For everyone else, it's an option but not one I would sit here and defend as 'ready for the world' in the way everyone is defending Vista.

I don't think anyone is defending Vista.

We are squelching the FUD mongerers to help the average reader separate 'fact' from 'fiction' when it comes to Vista.


Fiction: DRM destroyed Vista!
Fiction: Vista sucks because Dell rolled back to XP!!1111
Fact: If you are running an SLI setup, you may have performance issues with Vista due to immature SLI drivers.

 

[digital_exhaust]

It was not clear that Vista N was in use, so the concept of installing WMP11 seemed odd (in the US, it is just part of the OS so installing it would seem an exercise in futility). And while there are zealots on each side of the fence, the problems arise not when people say there's a problem, but when an extreme stance is taken. When people say "Vista is broken" it is reasonable to wonder "why?" Supporting an opinion and saying why something doesn't work (or why something does work) is helpful to a wider array of people. When that doesn't happen, on either side of a discussion, that's when shouting reigns...

Bingo.

I have yet to see anyone, in any thread or post actually say that Vista is perfect, and works flawlessly with absolutely no problems what so ever and is the greatest OS known to man. But I have seen alot of posts just bluntly saying that Vista sucks, Microsoft sucks, UAC sucks blah blah blah.... If you have a problem, ask. Look at the General Hardware forum. People who are having problems with their machine will typically outline the problem, when it happened and list their system specs.... and....gasp....they get helpful answers. What do think would happen if someone started a thread there stating that their machine won't boot, and then haul off screaming that Intel sucks.
The only way that anyone here can help is if all the needed information is given.. how the hell was anyone here supposed to know that Vista N was the OS in question? Pretty big oversight in my estimation... Would have probably prevented alot of the bickering and bullshit that has since ensued..... unless of course that omission was intentional, you know, to get a feel for the psychology around here....

 

[djnes]

how the hell was anyone here supposed to know that Vista N was the OS in question?

Well maybe you need to get off your lazy ass and install the ESP plugin for the forums!

 

[digital_exhaust]

Well maybe you need to get off your lazy ass and install the ESP plugin for the forums!

Dammit... your right, I've been meaning to get around to that

 

[zacdl]

What a train wreck of a thread. What one person can cause, oh my goodness.

I didn't even bother reading some of these posts since hte last time I've posted (more of the same back and forth crap that gets nowhere), but to PROVE once and for all that you all are shoving words in our mouths (with actual backup! Yea, you should use it sometime):

point still stands djnes and the rest of the vistaboys do take the stance that Vista has no problems and if someone does post a problem they do get shot down with such terminology

I have said over and over and over again that Vista is far from perfect. Ask of of us, and we can give you a list of things we don't like.

I'll just leave you with two posts I started dealing with issues I have had with Vista:
They are here and here.

Otherwise, search yourself. NOBODY (other than you sticking words into our mouths) has said Vista is perfect.

 

[Catweazle]

OFF-TOPIC

Wow! Just wow!

I've logged in this morning (my time) primarily to respond to a question posed to me yesterday by nigerian_businessman, which I didn't have time to respond to when I read it. Damn, but I've lost the question completely now, amidst page after seemingly endless page of squabbling, bickering and outright bitch-fighting in three threads like this one. Don't some of you people have jobs? Some of this stuff is akin to a daytime TV soapie!

The "us against them" mentality in evidence here is mind-blowing! The sad thing about it is that a fair bit of it stems from the very real fact that there are some people regularly posting on 'both sides' of this argument who like to lump all opposition to their comments together as some form of dismissible "group".

The funny thing about it all is that a lot of the heated argument reflects back on comment I initiated myself, and I've seen people on both 'sides of the argument' make reference which suggests that I'm somehow part of one of the 'groups', yet I'm quite an independent contributor here, abhor quite a bit of the comment made on both 'sides', and try to ensure that whilst my comments are colourful and blunt I don't actually allow them to be personally derogatory.

Let's look at an example. For convenience I'll respond to a post made by duby229, as that post makes an excellent example of the line of argument I'm objecting to. That's not a personal attack upon duby. The comment has been quoted only as a reflection upon my own contributions here. In this thread duby hasn't referred to me personally, and I'm not suggesting that he has.

Thats fair enough I can agree to that.

However I can recall at least half a dozen people saying that anybody who disables UAC is stupid, or a troll, or a FUD mongerer.... And the list goes on.

I know that wasnt you, but the point is still valid... Plenty of people get absolutely slammed becouse of the experiences that they have had.

Words there I've used, for sure. An approach to argument described there, though, that I DON'T use!

Troll?
Yep, I've thrown that one out, and with justification. There have been numerous Vista-related threads which people have jumped into despite the fact that they are obviously not interested in using the Windows platform itself in any way, shape or form, let alone Vista. The body of argument mounted complains that Vista isn't like *nix or some other non-Windows platform. Sorry, but that's thread-trolling and thread-shitting, on any forum!

Same deal applies to the people posting yet another "Vista is great" thread despite the presence of numerous other threads to which their comment could've been posted. Cuts both ways. It's only effectively an exercise in throwing out a hook and waiting for a bite! Messy stuff!

Stupid?
Dunno if I've used that'n specifically, but I've certainly used words like it, such as 'silly', 'crazy', 'ridiculous' or somesuch in reference to the decision to disable UAC. You see such a word in one of my posts and assume that I've described you as a "stupid person"? Sorry, but you're making a leap there which simply isn't in my comments. I've described the decision/action, not the person. Whilst I don't want to revisit the entire UAC argument all over again (please go to one of the excellent UAC-related threads and debates for that) I've simply indicated the view that disabling UAC is an unwarranted and unnecessary action, which has detrimental impact. Anybody seeing an action they've performed described as 'silly' and taking personal offence at the comment needs to grow a thicker skin!

FUD monger?
The word 'monger' isn't in my everyday vocabulary, but I've certainly objected to FUD dissemination. So should anybody else. FUD is misinformation, and should be objected to in the interests of accuracy.

Hell! I even saw, somewhere in one of the three threads I read through this morning, an objection made to the fact that some people have asked for empirical evidence to support substantive claims that they've made! Good grief! Is the suggestion here that people should be able to post whatever outrageous claims they make without fear of being challenged?




I'll continue to post in the style I use, because it's me. This place has sorta exploded with heated arguments, and from time to time I'll almost certainly drop a comment or three amongst it, in my own colourful and blunt style. But don't assume that I'm personally attacking somebody else by doing so and count me OUT of the efforts some people here are making to align themselves as 'groups'. That's a 'game' I'm not interested in!

 

[Catweazle]

ON-TOPIC

Rather funny to see the objection made by Finn, about Media Player not installing, explode into page after page of heated argument and even spill over into other threads, only to turn out that it relates to the 'N' release and that the problem was merely caused because no internet connection was available at the time of installing! That'n gave me a chuckle for sure!


But it DOES raise an interesting question, and I'm wondering what its answer is. Is the 'N' version a mandatory purchase in EU countries, or is it offered as an optional alternative? I don't subscribe to the "this is a US website" line of argument, being the Aussie bushman that I am and thus 'better' than Americans anyway. (that was 'humour', for the benefit of you thin-skinned people )

If the MediaPlayer-free version is a mandatory purchase in the EU then any issues specific to it are genuinely 'problems' related to Vista which have widespread impact. If it is an optional purchase, though, any related problem is of much more limited impact. As it turned out, this specific issue wasn't really a 'problem'. But the question remains regardless.

T was of the impression that the 'N' version was offered as an alternative, and that only a minority of European people actually chose to purchase it. Am I incorrect there?

 

[calebb]

ON-TOPIC

Rather funny to see the objection made by Finn, about Media Player not installing, explode into page after page of heated argument and even spill over into other threads, only to turn out that it relates to the 'N' release and that the problem was merely caused because no internet connection was available at the time of installing! That'n gave me a chuckle for sure!


But it DOES raise an interesting question, and I'm wondering what its answer is. Is the 'N' version a mandatory purchase in EU countries, or is it offered as an optional alternative? I don't subscribe to the "this is a US website" line of argument, being the Aussie bushman that I am and thus 'better' than Americans anyway. (that was 'humour', for the benefit of you thin-skinned people )

If the MediaPlayer-free version is a mandatory purchase in the EU then any issues specific to it are genuinely 'problems' related to Vista which have widespread impact. If it is an optional purchase, though, any related problem is of much more limited impact. As it turned out, this specific issue wasn't really a 'problem'. But the question remains regardless.

T was of the impression that the 'N' version was offered as an alternative, and that only a minority of European people actually chose to purchase it. Am I incorrect there?

First of all, I was hoping this thread would die

Second... WTF is humour? (/duck)

Yep, I'm glad I was able to point Finn to his install.log where he determined that it was possibly due to lack of internet connection that caused all his issues.

The 'N' version is definitely 'optional.'

re: your offtopic post. The term "FUD mongerer" is from a thread I started in the soapbox a couple weeks ago

And here's my take on this whole discussion:

• I will gladly discuss pros/cons of Vista all day.
• I will not sit back and let trolls disseminate unsubstantiated FUD. (I will reply to them every time, time permitting - in fact I have an excel spreadsheet that I use to paste responses to their 'FPF' (frequently posted FUD) so it really does not take much time at all to respond to them!).
• I will definitely not let the trolls strawman me! (that's my biggest pet peeve - i.e., claiming that I never let people say anything negative about Vista, etc)

Sorry if you wasted your whole evening reading this thread, but hey, it occupied my free time between nant builds today

 

[Catweazle]

First of all, I was hoping this thread would die ..

It was conveniently open in a browser tab and I started typing the post out in it. The post itself could've been made in any of several threads, but given what I was reading I wasn't about to waste any of my time determining which of several threads was the current one the bullshit had jumped to

 

[zacdl]

I'm with ^^

I like a good discussion on the pros/cons of OS as much as the next guy as well, but like you said... I just can't tolerate false lies about it.

At least in real life you can smack someone over the head to get them to stop

 

[Catweazle]

I like a good discussion on the pros/cons of OS as much as the next guy as well, but ..........

Here's a personally directed comment from Catweazle.

zacdl, you'd be one of the regular contributors of late who are, in my opinion, MOST PRONE to allowing your comment to ACTUALLY BE personally directed abuse! Your entry to this thread, for example, was a personal attack upon two people:

Ever watch King of the Hill? You remind me of Dale Gribble... everyone is out to get you.

.......................


How ignorant can you be?............

I have absolutely CRINGED at seeing some of your appearances in threads

It's probable that you don't intentionally seek to offend others. It's unavoidable that some people will take offence no matter what you do. But it's advisable to exercise a bit of care with your comments in order to not be actually doing so. I could pull up numerous other examples if I cared to go looking

 

[nigerian_businessman]

And here's my take on this whole discussion:

• I will gladly discuss pros/cons of Vista all day.
• I will not sit back and let trolls disseminate unsubstantiated FUD. (I will reply to them every time, time permitting - in fact I have an excel spreadsheet that I use to paste responses to their 'FPF' (frequently posted FUD) so it really does not take much time at all to respond to them!).
• I will definitely not let the trolls strawman me! (that's my biggest pet peeve - i.e., claiming that I never let people say anything negative about Vista, etc)

First point you've proven well enough. Well, sort of. You'll discuss the pros. You'll deny, ignore, or attempt (poorly) to discredit the cons.

Second point you've failed to uphold. You initiated a conversation with me, asking for all sorts of stuff, and when provided you failed to acknowledge any of it in any worthwhile manner. In fact, the entire basis of your initial argument with me was dismissive, and boiled down to attacking a misspelled word. Essentially proving the point of others when they say you, and a few others like you, do NOT actually contribute anything but dismissive name-calling when people have anything negative to say about Vista.

Here's the link to that post by the way, the one that you ignored 90% of.
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030962038&postcount=135

Third point is just you waving around some more 'look at me, I'm a seasoned internet warrior and I know all sorts of things like strawman and ad hominem'. Unless you have something worthwhile to contribute, I'd say you're just making noise. Or trolling, as you like to put it. Unfortunately, we won't see the mod of this forum actually deleting your thread because apparently you're only a troll if you DISLIKE Vista.

 

[zacdl]

It's probable that you don't intentionally seek to offend others. It's unavoidable that some people will take offence no matter what you do. But it's advisable to exercise a bit of care with your comments in order to not be actually doing so. I could pull up numerous other examples if I cared to go looking

Yea, I realize it. Sometimes I just can't help myself... Beleive me... I try not to be too bad, and I accept what you say
They complain- you try to rationalize and learn more about their problem.
They don't provide any information about the problem but yet still make ridiculous generalized claims- I run out of line. Where else do you go with it? It just adds to the "hysteria" that scares so many people off.

For all the people who say us "Vista-boys" flame anyone that disagrees: Just because I don't particularly LIKE what Catweazle here says, doesn't mean I'm going to call him a troll. I can at least acknoledge I get carried away sometimes. I only wish you guys could realize the same. Heck, as someone pointed out, djnes and I (who you have both classified us as "Pro-Vista" and "Anti-Everythingelse") have even had our disagreements in the past. It doesn't mean I keep flaming the guy every chance I get.

apparently you're only a troll if you DISLIKE Vista.

Again- show us a single instance where somebody that dislikes Vista has been called a troll. Not a single one you will find.
What you fill find, is if people dislike Vista and provide baseless facts as their reasons for disliking it.
Otherwise, there have been plenty of people that just say "I found I didn't like Vista, so I am happily running XP again, although I'll be looking at trying Vista again when XX improves." They don't get called names, made fun of, or accused of being a troll. They come into Vista with an open mind, and they leave Vista with an open mind.
People that give crap like "I don't like it because UAC prompts me when I log off, log on, start up, and shut down" are going to be, on the other hand.

Just for the record, because I loose track... what argument or problem do you have with Vista that calebb is ignoring?

 

[Catweazle]

...Troll?
Yep, I've thrown that one out, and with justification. There have been numerous Vista-related threads which people have jumped into despite the fact that they are obviously not interested in using the Windows platform itself in any way, shape or form, let alone Vista. The body of argument mounted complains that Vista isn't like *nix or some other non-Windows platform. Sorry, but that's thread-trolling and thread-shitting, on any forum!

Same deal applies to the people posting yet another "Vista is great" thread despite the presence of numerous other threads to which their comment could've been posted. Cuts both ways. It's only effectively an exercise in throwing out a hook and waiting for a bite! Messy stuff!

... Unfortunately, we won't see the mod of this forum actually deleting your thread because apparently you're only a troll if you DISLIKE Vista.

I noticed that some of your posts were removed as part of the cleanup and lockage of another thread. The moderator performing that action acknowledged and apologised for the fact that a whole page of posts were removed and that some genuine posts were removed in the process. Your comment sounds very much like sour grapes, and an exercise in creating some intrigue which doesn't actually exist.



I suspect that your post I referred to above might've been in there, because I can't find it. The discussion was about Vista performance v XP performance, and you were providing some (subjective) examples of how Vista was 'slower'. From memory one of the instances you provided was a slowness in opening folders. Another might've been a slowness in generating image thumbnails. I can't recall the rest, so could you perhaps post them again. It was a valid line of discussion being pursued, that is directly relevent to the 'Vista hysteria' concept being explored in this thread.

Those two things are phenomena I've only encountered whilst indexing is being completed, and only seen reported elsewhere in such a context. Once indexing and other optimisations are addressed those operations become and remain responsive, in my experience.

The measures I was seeking to examine were more applications performance based tests. File encryption/decryption. Audio and video encoding. etc etc etc. I've not seen anything but negligible variation in the results of such tests.

 

[calebb]

First point you've proven well enough. Well, sort of. You'll discuss the pros. You'll deny, ignore, or attempt (poorly) to discredit the cons.

Not true. Here are some of my recent posts:

1. Scientific rebuttal of FUD
2. Someone experienced dreamscene nvidia crashes - I pointed them to the fix.
3. duby claimed to be called a troll. I said where? He didn't respond.
4. I was falsely accused of being 'vehement that everyone else is wrong' (no response when proof was requested). In the same post, duby claimed that he had proof that UAC was broken (a poll that showed 50% of [H] users turned off UAC). I rebutted that IPSEC is also streamlined in Vista so the average user can now create custom security policies and that 50% of users disabling a feature was insufficient proof that UAC was broken. (rebuttal ignored)
5. dstalker claimed stalker is unplayable in Vista. I pointed out that it was an nvidia driver issue that also exists in XP! and I pointed him to the fix for the issue.
6. User doesn't use Vista because no Cisco VPN client. I simply replied that there is one and I've been using it since retail launch. (he needs to get it from his IT administrator)
7. eeyrjmr claims that 1080p is pointless on a laptop. I know otherwise since I have seen 1080p content on a WUXGA+ laptop - it looks incredible. This obviously stopped his argument that 1080p is useless on a laptop in its tracks. He never responded again.
8. godofdestrcution claimed that Finn was on to something and provided a link. I pointed out that the link was from 2005 and was for beta 1.
9. Typical DRM FUD debunked. But Finn ignores rebuttal and continues ranting anyway. I politely call him on it. (next post, he says he was just joking... then he moves on to his next issue without even mentioning this again)
10. LhasaCM reports random crackling from his Creative soundcard. I let him know the bug was fixed in the driver release on March 20.
11. Intelligent discussion on gaming performance in Vista. No name calling - just discussion on facts. (see the few posts above and below).
12. Newer user figures out what was causing his CS:S lag issues in Vista: (4xmsaa is buggy apparently). I compliment him for being a new user and sticking to it to resolve the issue without giving up! (and posting the results for others to see!)
13. darkangel74 believes that Vista physically destroyed his hard drive. I sympathize with him and acknowledge his concerns (since they are very legitimate), I don't call him names, and we intelligently discuss it. (are you noticing a patern yet? )
14. Finn claims that we "paid a very high price" for the ability to play DRM protected media in Vista. There is no proof here - just a sweeping generalization and my FUD radar goes off. However, I nicely ask him what price we paid. He claims that the price we paid was already covered by a gazillion articles yet he can't give me any proof or evidence. Argh. Do you see why I'm frustrated with this guy? He does say that you can't use s/pdif output when playing DRM protected Blu-ray content. But I point out that this is not a problem with Vista - it's a problem with the MPAA...
15. xbeemer drops a HUGE FUD bomb and never returns to the thread. The funny thing is he doesn't bring any proof or first-hand experience. Yet the previous page of the thread has people with first-hand experience claiming the exact opposite of what he says. How is that an intelligent discussion? He doesn't even return to the thread to respond... He does not provide any specifics - just sweeping generalizations about Vista.
16. lemmy has some issues with Supreme Commander. I gently probe for more specific details and help him resolve his issues (which turned out to be misconceptions about performance in XP with Range-lines enabled)

Second point you've failed to uphold. You initiated a conversation with me, asking for all sorts of stuff, and when provided you failed to acknowledge any of it in any worthwhile manner. In fact, the entire basis of your initial argument with me was dismissive, and boiled down to attacking a misspelled word. Essentially proving the point of others when they say you, and a few others like you, do NOT actually contribute anything but dismissive name-calling when people have anything negative to say about Vista.

Here's the link to that post by the way, the one that you ignored 90% of.
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030962038&postcount=135

Read that post you just linked. How many times do you attack me in that thread? (a lot!) And you wonder why I didn't respond? You accuse me of not doing any research (yet look at the list I just provided above). You accuse me of not being knowledgeable about computer security and firewalls. That post makes my blood boil.

Third point is just you waving around some more 'look at me, I'm a seasoned internet warrior and I know all sorts of things like strawman and ad hominem'. Unless you have something worthwhile to contribute, I'd say you're just making noise. Or trolling, as you like to put it. Unfortunately, we won't see the mod of this forum actually deleting your thread because apparently you're only a troll if you DISLIKE Vista.

Let me lay this out for you. I spend my spare time helping people resolve their issues with Vista and intelligently debating problems and issues.

Some trolls join in and start wasting my time by attacking me personally or claiming I said something other than what I said in order to make it easier for them to attack me. Why are you calling me a seasoned internet warrior? I point out the trolls' logical fallacies to make them stop! (and it works! did you notice how much the ad hominem's decreased today?)

Now look at what you are doing. You are accusing me of arguing for the sake of arguing. You poke fun at my use of the correct terms for the fallacies that the trolls push on me. You know what that is? An underhanded attack on my motives which is again an ad hominem - an attack me as a person instead of the topic at hand.

 

[nigerian_businessman]

Again- show us a single instance where somebody that dislikes Vista has been called a troll. Not a single one you will find.

Sure you don't want to put a lid back on that can of worms?

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030941731&postcount=124

Your logic is really screwed up. When is your 12th birthday???

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030942158&postcount=129

Rather inevitable if the trolls are allowed to troll unhindered, unfortunately.

There was more in that thread but it was deleted.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030587596&postcount=10
I'd put a quote with this one, but it's quoting a mod-edited post.

Wait, here's one from yesterday, straight from the horse's mouth. Or ass, depending on your viewpoint.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030960741&postcount=12

I guess we have another troll, first posts some outdated thread from 2005 in order to "prove" that the problem in WMP 11 in Vista is broken, and now posts this crap?

Note: I'm pointing out the part where you linked this post to the WMP11 issue that was brought into the forums that dissolved into a total flamefest because instead of helping the guy you all jumped on him for spreading 'FUD"


Check out the post directly under it where someone with a legit complaint (Stalker crashing) gets told he 'sucks' for venting his frustration.

Oh, and just for good measure, here's you calling Gatticus a troll for proving you wrong. And BTW he was right about setting the pagefile large enough and it will avoid fragmentation. Even if he is in fact a troll, he wasn't trolling in that thread, but since you guys labeled him a troll you immediately attacked what he had to say for no other reason than because you had to be right and make him out to be wrong and trolling.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030959986&postcount=45

He is just posting stuff he has zero knowledge about, in order to further his point (That's the definition of a troll, by the way).

What you fill find, is if people dislike Vista and provide baseless facts as their reasons for disliking it.

Who appointed you sole judge of what is or isn't baseless facts. If people are having issues with Vista, regardless of whether or not it's Microsofts or the hardware manufacturers or software houses fault, they should be allowed to post their experience without having to worry about a bunch of MS shills attacking, berating, and labeling them as trolls for it.

Otherwise, there have been plenty of people that just say "I found I didn't like Vista, so I am happily running XP again, although I'll be looking at trying Vista again when XX improves." They don't get called names, made fun of, or accused of being a troll. They come into Vista with an open mind, and they leave Vista with an open mind.

Oh, I see. So in order to not be a troll, you're only allowed to dislike it right now, but you have to promise the Vista-anti-defamation-league that you will give it a second chance later on and in the meantime you will not say anything negative about it.

Where do you come up with this bullshit?

People that give crap like "I don't like it because UAC prompts me when I log off, log on, start up, and shut down" are going to be, on the other hand.

I love how you have appointed yourself the sole judge of what people are allowed to say about Vista. Seriously, how is the weather up there on your high horse?

Just for the record, because I loose track... what argument or problem do you have with Vista that calebb is ignoring?

Just for the record, this ^^ is a classic troll.

 

[nigerian_businessman]

Not true. Here are some of my recent posts:

1. Scientific rebuttal of FUD
2. Someone experienced dreamscene nvidia crashes - I pointed them to the fix.
3. duby claimed to be called a troll. I said where? He didn't respond.
4. I was falsely accused of being 'vehement that everyone else is wrong' (no response when proof was requested). In the same post, duby claimed that he had proof that UAC was broken (a poll that showed 50% of [H] users turned off UAC). I rebutted that IPSEC is also streamlined in Vista so the average user can now create custom security policies and that 50% of users disabling a feature was insufficient proof that UAC was broken. (rebuttal ignored)
5. dstalker claimed stalker is unplayable in Vista. I pointed out that it was an nvidia driver issue that also exists in XP! and I pointed him to the fix for the issue.
6. User doesn't use Vista because no Cisco VPN client. I simply replied that there is one and I've been using it since retail launch. (he needs to get it from his IT administrator)
7. eeyrjmr claims that 1080p is pointless on a laptop. I know otherwise since I have seen 1080p content on a WUXGA+ laptop - it looks incredible. This obviously stopped his argument that 1080p is useless on a laptop in its tracks. He never responded again.
8. godofdestrcution claimed that Finn was on to something and provided a link. I pointed out that the link was from 2005 and was for beta 1.
9. Typical DRM FUD debunked. But Finn ignores rebuttal and continues ranting anyway. I politely call him on it. (next post, he says he was just joking... then he moves on to his next issue without even mentioning this again)
10. LhasaCM reports random crackling from his Creative soundcard. I let him know the bug was fixed in the driver release on March 20.
11. Intelligent discussion on gaming performance in Vista. No name calling - just discussion on facts. (see the few posts above and below).
12. Newer user figures out what was causing his CS:S lag issues in Vista: (4xmsaa is buggy apparently). I compliment him for being a new user and sticking to it to resolve the issue without giving up! (and posting the results for others to see!)
13. darkangel74 believes that Vista physically destroyed his hard drive. I sympathize with him and acknowledge his concerns (since they are very legitimate), I don't call him names, and we intelligently discuss it. (are you noticing a patern yet? )
14. Finn claims that we "paid a very high price" for the ability to play DRM protected media in Vista. There is no proof here - just a sweeping generalization and my FUD radar goes off. However, I nicely ask him what price we paid. He claims that the price we paid was already covered by a gazillion articles yet he can't give me any proof or evidence. Argh. Do you see why I'm frustrated with this guy? He does say that you can't use s/pdif output when playing DRM protected Blu-ray content. But I point out that this is not a problem with Vista - it's a problem with the MPAA...
15. xbeemer drops a HUGE FUD bomb and never returns to the thread. The funny thing is he doesn't bring any proof or first-hand experience. Yet the previous page of the thread has people with first-hand experience claiming the exact opposite of what he says. How is that an intelligent discussion? He doesn't even return to the thread to respond... He does not provide any specifics - just sweeping generalizations about Vista.
16. lemmy has some issues with Supreme Commander. I gently probe for more specific details and help him resolve his issues (which turned out to be misconceptions about performance in XP with Range-lines enabled)

1. You ran ethereal for 5 minutes and you think that's scientific? Again, I ask you, how much do you really know and how much do you just pretend to know in order to make other people look bad?
4. I provided you three links showing UAC is fundamentally flawed. You continue to ignore them, for no other reason than because they shatter your argument. Still waiting for a response to that, by the way.

The rest of this is patting yourself on the back for helping people, or pointing to threads where you 'showed people up'. What do you want? A reward? A custom title? BTW your method of showing people up is weak. It basically consists of pleading ignorance, asking for 'information to back that up' as if you don't have a web browser and cannot fire up google for yourself, then when people can't be arsed to respond to your same old tired bullshit because they realize it won't change a thing, since you're always right, you claim victory. NOTICE A PATTERN HERE?

Read that post you just linked. How many times do you attack me in that thread? (a lot!) And you wonder why I didn't respond? You accuse me of not doing any research (yet look at the list I just provided above). You accuse me of not being knowledgeable about computer security and firewalls. That post makes my blood boil.

Oh, I see. So dismissing everything I have to say as misguided, uninformative, or FUD as you love to throw around isn't an attack? And no, I don't wonder why you don't respond. That is abundantly clear: You cannot because you are wrong. You are incapable of debunking what I have said, and this puts you in the precarious position of having to admit that you are wrong. Since you cannot, for whatever fucked up reason, do that, you simply ignore it.

Let me lay this out for you. I spend my spare time helping people resolve their issues with Vista and intelligently debating problems and issues.

Let me correct you, once again. You spend your spare time going in Vista threads and giving help, unless someone doesn't want it, in which case you get all butt-hurt and call them a troll or attack them through dismissive statements.

Some trolls join in and start wasting my time by attacking me personally or claiming I said something other than what I said in order to make it easier for them to attack me. Why are you calling me a seasoned internet warrior? I point out the trolls' logical fallacies to make them stop! (and it works! did you notice how much the ad hominem's decreased today?)

I'm calling you a seasoned internet warrior because throwing around "ad hominem this" and "strawman that" and "FUD you" and "wahhh trolling" is simply another logical fallacy. It's called Hasty Generalization. You can look that one up on wikipedia while you're digging for more ways to attempt to make others look bad.

Now look at what you are doing. You are accusing me of arguing for the sake of arguing. You poke fun at my use of the correct terms for the fallacies that the trolls push on me. You know what that is? An underhanded attack on my motives which is again an ad hominem - an attack me as a person instead of the topic at hand.

Don't deny yourself. Hell, we're all arguing for the sake of arguing. Except for you. You're infallible, perfect, you would never say anything or do anything wrong.

See, thats where the problem lays. The stinking hypocrisy and finger-pointing, and then the subsequent cry-babying about how you're getting a taste of your own medicine.

I am arguing. I'm arguing for the sake of passing the time and giving you a taste of your own medicine. I'm arguing for the viewpoint that it is perfectly fine, 100% acceptable to not like Vista. I'm tired of Microsoft, and you, and other people like you, telling me what I am and am not allowed to like or dislike. I'm tired of watching you and your friends gang up on other people for expressing a viewpoint and flame-baiting them into playing your games, just so you can turn around and cry foul when they finally give in. And I'm not going to cry to the mods if you somehow muster up the intelligence to shut down anything I've said. If I'm a troll, so are you, so can we leave that out of it now? You, and all your little Vista Anti-Defamation League friends need to come to terms with what and who you are, and how your actions are contributing to the very climate you're all so up in arms about on this forum.

And if I am a troll, the only reason you're pissed off about it is because I'm better at it than you and you can't fucking stand it.

 

[theriverlethe]

As an early Vista adopter and proponent, here are my current reasons for no longer using or recommending Vista:

1. System standby doesn't work. If the system does go to sleep, it won't come back.

2. BF2142 reliably CTD's and then Vista blue-screens after closing the process, with a "PROCESS_HAS_LOCKED_PAGES" error. I consider this a flaw in Vista itself. No modern OS should be crashed by an application or driver, especially when one of the selling points is that the kernel is now more isolated from the rest of the system.

3. The system randomly hangs when watching videos or playing games.

I'm using all top-brand hardware with the latest firmware and drivers, and XP works flawlessly. I even ran Scandisk, since a corrupted hard drive sector was the only way I ever got XP to blue-screen. I've seen more hangs and blue-screens in the last couple days of Vista than I've seen in seven years of 2000/XP.

 

[Finn]

Not true. Here are some of my recent posts:

1. eeyrjmr claims that 1080p is pointless on a laptop. I know otherwise since I have seen 1080p content on a WUXGA+ laptop - it looks incredible. This obviously stopped his argument that 1080p is useless on a laptop in its tracks. He never responded again.
2. godofdestrcution claimed that Finn was on to something and provided a link. I pointed out that the link was from 2005 and was for beta 1.

I happen to agree that 1080p is totally useless on a laptop. Sure it may look nice but really, wtf cares? It's a _laptop_.

And your 'beta' argument doesn't hold water since the same problem raised it's head now, later with RTM. You make the strawman argument (heh, yeah) that the missing internet connection was the reason why the install failed. Whatever problems people bring out, you compulsively need to try and disprove there is ANY problem whatsoever. I don't understand, everyone knows there are major problems with Vista. Just like XP Vista needs its first servicepack probably before it becomes fully functional. OTOH the servicepack may well come called 'Vienna' and at a $350 pricetag.

 

[calebb]

As an early Vista adopter and proponent, here are my current reasons for no longer using or recommending Vista:

1. System standby doesn't work. If the system does go to sleep, it won't come back.

2. BF2142 reliably CTD's and then Vista blue-screens after closing the process, with a "PROCESS_HAS_LOCKED_PAGES" error. I consider this a flaw in Vista itself. No modern OS should be crashed by an application or driver, especially when one of the selling points is that the kernel is now more isolated from the rest of the system.

3. The system randomly hangs when watching videos or playing games.

I'm using all top-brand hardware with the latest firmware and drivers, and XP works flawlessly. I even ran Scandisk, since a corrupted hard drive sector was the only way I ever got XP to blue-screen. I've seen more hangs and blue-screens in the last couple days of Vista than I've seen in seven years of 2000/XP.

1. That was an nvidia bug and I'm happy to say that it was fixed with the 158.18 drivers! (finally! that was driving me nuts!)

2. That's a problem with punkbuster and UAC. I love BF2142 and it runs great for me in Vista / 32 bit w/ nvidia gfx card. (50+ hours with no crashes). To fix this problem you can either disable UAC or on your BF2142 icon, right click and chose "Run as Administrator."

3. It sounds like more driver issues - I would uninstall your drivers and try out the 158.18's! They work MUCH better than than the 100.64's!

 

[nigerian_businessman]

And again, you ignore my post and move on to an easier target.

Typical.

 

[calebb]

You make the strawman argument (heh, yeah) that the missing internet connection was the reason why the install failed.

I'm not the one who made that leap! catweazle did, and I assumed he was correct. My mistake if he was not.

Q: Have you watched 1080p content on a WUXGA+ (i.e., most Dell laptops) laptop?
A: "I happen to agree that 1080p is totally useless on a laptop." = opinion, not fact.

The FACT is that 1080p is higher resolution than 480p.
The FACT is that higher resolution = more detail.


Then you make the blanket statement:

Whatever problems people bring out, you compulsively need to try and disprove there is ANY problem whatsoever.
Not true! I just pointed out several places where I agreed and constructively discussed issues with people.

I don't understand, everyone knows there are major problems with Vista.
This is another blanket statement that you've posted without backing it up...

 

[nigerian_businessman]

Whatever problems people bring out, you compulsively need to try and disprove there is ANY problem whatsoever.
Not true! I just pointed out several places where I agreed and constructively discussed issues with people.

I don't understand, everyone knows there are major problems with Vista.
This is another blanket statement that you've posted without backing it up...

And this is another example of you dismissing everything and anything you don't agree with, unless they provide you a fucking encyclopedia worth of references, in which case you'll just ignore them completely.

 

[duby229]

I think we all need to just relax and take a breather....

Pull your chair away from the computer for a bit and go pop a good film in the player, and watch it, then come back later with a smile.

Maybe I'm being facetious, but I just think this is getting a little out of hand.

 

[Catweazle]

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030942158&postcount=129


There was more in that thread but it was deleted.

Comment made in a thread where people were doing their best to obfuscate an argument with misleading tales about how Vista wouldn't run on hardware nobody in their right mind would even consider using for XP nowadays! 'Twas strong comment and, in context, warranted. Don't be lumping it in with any instances of people throwing about strong comment as if it were confetti

I'm not the one who made that leap! catweazle did, and I assumed he was correct. My mistake if he was not.

The man himself posted comment indicating that, when he consulted error logs the 'error' proved to be the lack of a connection. I didn't think it any sort of 'leap'. I was merely going by what he'd reported.

 

[Catweazle]

I think we all need to just relax and take a breather....

Pull your chair away from the computer for a bit and go pop a good film in the player, and watch it, then come back later with a smile.

Maybe I'm being facetious, but I just think this is getting a little out of hand.

Pretty much what I said, albeit at more length, this morning. People are so carried away with their bickering, though, that the comments went unremarked by and large