Vista hysteria among general public out of control

[computerpro3]

This is really beginning to bother me - as a small system retailer and support technician, it is beginning to cause a SERIOUS lack of productivity and it wastes a tremendous amount of time. As a technet subscriber who has been running Vista 24/7 (although in a test-system at first) since pre RC-1, right now I am openly advocating Vista on all customer's machines. Why? Because it is infinetely better than XP at protecting users from themselves. It causes less headaches for me and saves the customer technical support costs.

But thanks largely to the utterly irritating, completely false advertisements by Apple, the public looks at me like I have three heads when I suggest Vista. Take my latest upgrade for example - a family computer which I've already been called on to service over five times for viruses and spyware. It's running on a Windows 2000 install (they refused to upgrade) and I've done everything humanly possible to keep this machine secure, including a paid subscription of Nod32, the linksys hardware firewall, etc. No matter what I do, the stupidity of these people manages to screw up their computer.

So this last time I convinced them to upgrade to Vista. I outlined clearly the advantages and disadvantages of the OS, and upgraded their machine so it could easily handle it (2GB ram, Aero capable, Pentium 4, etc). She wanted me to consult her brother and law who is a "computer God" so I politely did. This man had never even used Vista, had never built a computer before, had never heard of ESET (reccomended Norton), and most of all, he was 100% sure that Vista would break her machine. His rationale? The mac ads. "Didn't you see those Mac ads dude? You know how many times the UAC pops up? I wouldn't touch Vista with a 10ft pole.

After I completely dismantled him in front of her in a very polite fashion (got him to admit hes never used it, hasn't built a computer, etc), she agrees to go Vista. That was yesterday. That night I installed Vista on her machine and it works beautifully. Tonight, I get a call from her, panicking, asking if I had "done Vista" yet. Apparantly she said that it was a peice of crap and it will break her computer.

ERATHUHAERTURSAGFJSARYFHEa#@%@!^!#@ ^!^!$^@!#^!@!@^@!!@^^TY W#ERG GTV !GV#$Q%^T#$R%YB@%$B&^$#@!^@@^@^

I've never seen so many average people professing to be experts on computers as when Vista is mentioned. "Dude, I saw it on TV! Everything I see on TV is real!" Congratulations, Mr. Jobs.

That's it, I'm done. I've come to the conclusion that the average person is of exceedingly below average intelligence. I'm off to Google the closest monastary.

 

[mcravenufo]

Yeah, the amount of stupidity that the average human possesses is quite depressing, and I don't mean in just the computer field either. I usually get all bent out of shape when I think about it or hear about the stories a friend of mine tells me.

 

[digital_exhaust]

Unfortunately the enthusiast community isn't exactly helping a whole lot either... just look at some of the..ahem..discussions regarding Vista right here in this forum.

It's different, it's better and people are scared of it for no good reason. Time will help, and really it's not all that different than it was when XP first showed up... Just a little more public, thanks to Apple and dumbshits like that guy at Best Buy claiming that Vista will "break" your computer....

 

[As I Lay Dying]

yeah no.......you are missing one thing, 98% of people are computer illiterate.

while vista is in the right step it really changes nothing in this department. Example my sister calls me up the other day and tells me when your computer is one the cd tray continually ejects and opens, if you could of seen the look on my face when she told me that, wait I am gonna try with >_______________< ........ the problem is her and my niece, install every stupid piece of malware disguised as an emoticon pack/make your desktop into aquarium/etc that is floating on the net. Is vista gonna prevent that no not really, the only it might do is ask them to ok every piece of crap on the internet.......

Her computer is running xp, and I have run xp as soon as it was out...... I have never had the problems she has every month, (I literally mean every month, because every month I reformat her computer, I just do not have the time to waste on running a spyware cleaner while 200-300spyware processes are running).

While vista is a right step in the direction of security, UAC will not solve computer illiteracy, UAC cant do anything, if one OKs the installation of malware.

 

[minc3d]

I work in IT as well and have personally been using Vista full time for the last 3 months, and have been testing it since RC1 as well. IT RUNS BETTER THAN XP, IS EASIER TO USE THAN XP, HAS LESS ISSUES THAN XP, AND LOOKS BETTER THAN XP!

Hysteria is sad. And the hysteria around Vista is just sad. Hopefully it will go away soon.

 

[villain71]

Majority of customers do not like to be bothered with annoyances. That is a fact. You know how many hardwares out there that still do not have Vista drivers so when you try to install them to Vista it doesn't work. Hell I got progs and a printer I bought a year & a 1/2 ago that doesnt work with Vista at all hence why I dual boot with xp. I have a nice tv tuner that works godly on XP but zilch on Vista as it has no Vista drivers. I'm not gonna waste money buyin new stuff just to work with Vista. Screw that and I think many people have that mentality.

This is the case of frustration with my family and friends. They do not wanna be bothered with new computers needing 2 gig of ram, etc when their current pcs just run perfectly with xp. They like their printers just fine. They like their scanners just fine. They like their webcams just fine and so forth.

So when I installed Vista on their machines and the hardwares they own for a few years do not work at all its just annoying as hell. My mother bought a new laptop. It has vista on it. Her printer doesn't work on it. Things like that pisses people off that's why they go back to XP or shun Vista alltogether.

Yes Vista is better and different but that shit aint gonna do much when people do not wanna spend money on a new computer that can run vista properly.. and will certainly not spend money on hardwares like printers, scanners, etc just to run on vista when they all run perfectly on xp. I know its not Vistas fault some hardware do not have vista drivers but still...people don't care. They just want their shit to work and not be bothered with annoyances.

 

[computerpro3]

they seem quite bothered by 99999999 spyware infestations

And for the record every single peice of hardware that I have come into contact with with the exception of M-Audio audiophile USB has worked out of the box with vista. Vista even found all of the proper drivers on it's own.

 

[minc3d]

I would like to say that the blame for Vista support should not be placed on Microsoft - the Operating System itself was available to system builders and software developers for a full 2 years before it reached the public and there is NO REASON any major developer shouldn't have drivers and/or updates for Vista ready by now.

Laziness on the behalf of these vendors is the real issue here. Microsoft went out of its way to make this OS the most conforming and developer friendly and held out an open hand to everyone who wanted in - that is, most major hardware makers.

An OS that will be on more than half the world's comps by 2009 should not be on the backburner for any major hardware OEM or software developer.

Let's just set straight who needs to be blamed here.

 

[villain71]

they seem quite bothered by 99999999 spyware infestations

And for the record every single peice of hardware that I have come into contact with with the exception of M-Audio audiophile USB has worked out of the box with vista. Vista even found all of the proper drivers on it's own.

Heh every casual person (kinda like the noob version in mmos but only on pcs) I know that has a computer got like 1,000 spywares its unreal.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think that sometimes as computer geeks, we tend to think that people are stupid, when really, I think that its simply a matter of our level of expertise in technology. People are not that stupid, but the general computer user is just wants to use their computer, not rebuild it.

That said, I do think that Vista is getting a bad wrap. I've used Windows daily since the days of Windows 286, and Vista is the best release of Windows thus far no doubt. What has really been the problem is that Vista has software compatibility problems, driver availability and quality issues, and of course, the misunderstood security model.

But this are getting better, and my Tablet convertible and my old Socket 754 desktop running Vista Ultimate are just about there. I still have a few quirks with my printer, the app now and then that won't run, but overall Vista is pretty nice.

I think the anti-Microsoft corp is getting louder than ever, and sometimes they make a point. Right now I'm trying out Ubuntu 7.04, and I must say that its kinda cool. The install was simple, best I've ever tried in a Linux distro. For free, its hard to argue with it. Web surfing, office automation, digital media, pretty much there. Trying to figure out how to play a DVD know, but not bad. If you don't want to spend money on software, this is good way to go, but spending time trying to figure out how to play a DVD is lame.

However, with a price tag of $400 retail, yeah, why not use Linux? If you can get it to do what you need, its more than viable. Microsoft is going to get more pressure like this as the developing world gets more computers. Of course they're not stupid, that's why they've got that $3 program going.

 

[calebb]

/signed.


If you have a subscription to the [H] (only $5 per year, $15 for life!), be sure to check out my soapbox thread on Vista FUD-mongerers.... it really is sad.

Time and time again, the most vocal opponents are people who haven't actually used Vista themselves (or only used it for a very short time or pre-retail, etc).

Vista really is all that & a bag of potato chips - there's no way I could go back to XP!

 

[heatlesssun]

/signed.


If you have a subscription to the [H] (only $5 per year, $15 for life!), be sure to check out my soapbox thread on Vista FUD-mongerers.... it really is sad.

Time and time again, the most vocal opponents are people who haven't actually used Vista themselves (or only used it for a very short time or pre-retail, etc).

Vista really is all that & a bag of potato chips - there's no way I could go back to XP!

I tend to agree. However, there are enough compatibility problems with Vista right now where I am keeping XP around, but I am using my Vista machines otherwise. As time passes of course this won't be an issue.

 

[Jordan1]

Gotta hate it when people think they know better than you...especially when they don't.

I really like a lot about Vista, but I finally went back to XP because of some gaming and driver annoyances.

 

[digital_exhaust]

Let's just set straight who needs to be blamed here.

Exactly. I agree 100% and thank you.

Gotta hate it when people think they know better than you...especially when they don't.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but what do you mean with that statement?

 

[Trepidati0n]

Gotta hate it when people think they know better than you...especially when they don't.

I really like a lot about Vista, but I finally went back to XP because of some gaming and driver annoyances.

But my nickel is that you will go back to Vista if your personal driver issues get solved...no?

Come to think of it...I've had a problem since win95 and every OS since then with drivers before the first service pack came out. But my guess is Vista is something new.

 

[Jordan1]

Exactly. I agree 100% and thank you.



I'm not trying to be an asshole, but what do you mean with that statement?

Referring to the OP having a discussion with someone that bases their argument on a commercial/something they have no personal experience with.

 

[Jordan1]

But my nickel is that you will go back to Vista if your personal driver issues get solved...no?

Come to think of it...I've had a problem since win95 and every OS since then with drivers before the first service pack came out. But my guess is Vista is something new.

If my driver issues get solved or at least improved on I would certainly go back to Vista.

 

[zacdl]

That's something I will hand to Apple- they are genious at marketing.

They could wrap up a bag of vomit and still find people to buy it.

The iPod was great when it came out- understandable. There are superior MP3 players out nowdays, yet Apple still dominates (although they have been sliding a little, but whateveR).

As you said- their Mac commercials (to be honest, I've only seen the original three. Due to my DVR I never watch commercials anymore ) don't help people's opinions.
What get's me, is of all the Mac commercials out there, I haven't seen a single one for Windows. I don't think I ever have, aside from a couple I've seen on the 'net.

If you think about it- Microsoft could be a huge success with a campaign for Windows.
Most people still think Norton is the bomb, why not build on it with the findings Symantec did a while back, about Windows being the most secure OS?
"A study by Symantec, the people who bring you Norton, shows not only do Windows PCs contain less problems than Macs, but are patched at a much faster rate".
IOW, the public trusts Symantec. Use that trust to spread their findings around.
I'm really not giving my opinion on that study, I'm just saying why Microsoft hasn't taken advantage of some of these opportunities.

Most people still have no clue what Vista is. I've learned to quit asking people. "Hey, I got a new computer today", I say, "Oh yea? You get Vista?", and they end up saying "What's that?"
Like I said- I have seen NO commercials for Windows. Yet for some reason Vista's doing better than XP (I still don't understand that one) at launch.

 

[Y2K SE]

She wanted me to consult her brother and law who is a "computer God" so I politely did. This man had never even used Vista, had never built a computer before, had never heard of ESET (reccomended Norton), and most of all, he was 100% sure that Vista would break her machine. His rationale? The mac ads. "Didn't you see those Mac ads dude? You know how many times the UAC pops up? I wouldn't touch Vista with a 10ft pole.

After I completely dismantled him in front of her in a very polite fashion (got him to admit hes never used it, hasn't built a computer, etc)

I was a technician for over five years at a major retailer. I saw this attitude in customers rountinely. I found that the most effective response was to ask the question "if you or your {friend, relative, coworker} is so knowledgable, why did you pay us $100 to do this work?"

 

[zacdl]

I was a technician for over five years at a major retailer. I saw this attitude in customers rountinely. I found that the most effective response was to ask the question "if you or your {friend, relative, coworker} is so knowledgable, why did you pay us $100 to do this work?"

Maybe cuz they get tired of screwing with it?

 

[LordVampyre]

computerpro3... at least you dont live in the boonies where they think a 386 with 8megs of ram is a "gaming machine" and worth 900.00 ... thats what I have around me here in southern missouri...

finally got so bad people asking me to heal their machines I just totally said screw it.. I no longer work on any machine other than mine... pity cause I really enjoy it....

my favorite quote "what, its only 5 years old, why cant I run vista" a 486 333 with 128meg ram, onboard video and on board sound oh yea and a 20meg hard drive

 

[Frobozz]

errrr... Why are you fighting with the customer? If they can accomplish all the tasks they require to with a Mac, and they want a Mac (even if it is just from those commercials) why not help them spec a Mac with a smile?

 

[Trepidati0n]

errrr... Why are you fighting with the customer? If they can accomplish all the tasks they require to with a Mac, and they want a Mac (even if it is just from those commercials) why not help them spec a Mac with a smile?

Because usually the convo goes like this with computer illiterate people

them "why can't my mac do what my PC used to do"

me "becase a mac uses different pieces of software, but it can still usually accomplish the same task"

them "but I don't want to use that software, I want to use my PC software"

Then starts the whole exceedingly painful support cycle which they expect for free. Unfortunately most computer illiterate people think the difference between a Mac and a PC is the difference between a two different car models.

 

[Gatticus]

Majority of customers do not like to be bothered with annoyances. That is a fact. You know how many hardwares out there that still do not have Vista drivers so when you try to install them to Vista it doesn't work. Hell I got progs and a printer I bought a year & a 1/2 ago that doesnt work with Vista at all hence why I dual boot with xp. I have a nice tv tuner that works godly on XP but zilch on Vista as it has no Vista drivers. I'm not gonna waste money buyin new stuff just to work with Vista. Screw that and I think many people have that mentality.

Yep, my HP 1018 Laser printer has no Vista driver even though I only bought it about 7 months ago, ditto on the TV Tuner,ditto on my EMU0404 USB soundcard, and I had to also disable my mb's ethernet and install a PCI network card because the driver provided by Microsoft for Vista is NFG. Yep, that's plenty of reason not to want to use Vista. I have Vista installed but I've used it maybe twice since I installed it two months ago.

 

[Frobozz]

Because usually the convo goes like this with computer illiterate people

them "why can't my mac do what my PC used to do"

me "becase a mac uses different pieces of software, but it can still usually accomplish the same task"

them "but I don't want to use that software, I want to use my PC software"

Then starts the whole exceedingly painful support cycle which they expect for free. Unfortunately most computer illiterate people think the difference between a Mac and a PC is the difference between a two different car models.

I understand what you mean and I know there are just those occasional problem customers who will never get it. However, even those can be managed effectively. A big part in your example would be to discuss if the device will fill their needs and make sure they realize the care and feeding requirements of the device before you swipe their credit card. The follow up support can be handled by defining your service policy in a bit more detail.

Of course I know nothing about your specific business environment and so on, but I'm a firm believer that most customer service situations can end quite positively resulting in pleasant repeat business. Once you start trying to sell the customer something they don't want then they're going to get a chip on their shoulder and become a pain in your ass trying to turn everything into a warranty situation. Happy customers are easier to work with and open their wallets far more readily.

 

[GreNME]

All I have to say is that I'm glad I work on this stuff for a company. The home support stuff sounds like total BS to me and would make me hate computers. IT is already not my main love, but those stories from you guys sound downright depressing. I did it for a short time but I guess it wasn't long enough to have those experiences.

Then starts the whole exceedingly painful support cycle which they expect for free. Unfortunately most computer illiterate people think the difference between a Mac and a PC is the difference between a two different car models.

That's because they essentially are. They are two car models with extremely different parts and are just two of the many ways of doing basically the same thing. MacOS, Windows, and Linux are so similar under the hood in some ways it's downright eerie how they all manage to wind up doing things so differently in execution.

Get yourself a Mini and then start telling end users who gripe about Vista that you have both and prefer one or the other personally. If they are still incredulous, tell them to buy a Mac themselves if they want to trust the Jobs commercials. Some of them might like it, and others are going to find out the sad reality about advertising.

 

[calebb]

Yep, my HP 1018 Laser printer has no Vista driver even though I only bought it about 7 months ago, ditto on the TV Tuner,ditto on my EMU0404 USB soundcard, and I had to also disable my mb's ethernet and install a PCI network card because the driver provided by Microsoft for Vista is NFG. Yep, that's plenty of reason not to want to use Vista. I have Vista installed but I've used it maybe twice since I installed it two months ago.

Try the Laserjet III drivers - and official 1018 drivers should be out in July.

Also, boot over to Vista - there are tons of driver updates that can be installed via windows update - see if that fixes your issues with the soundcard, TV card, onboard ethernet.

If not, create a new thread and I'd be more than happy to help you properly configure your Vista installation.

 

[dot_Zen]

OP, I feel for you, I really do. And anyone else with some sense and the ability to think for themselves.

Luckly, my father and I have convinced every member of our extended family, who calls on us for support, to switch.

Ya' wanna know something, previously we got a call once a month if not more, previous OS releases or new comps got us a call every week if not two; since January, we've had 1 or two calls from only 2 or 3 and in all cases it was/is an issue with something they just bought (or had in a garage/attic some where) not having drivers ready or avilable. No lie.

I know there are issues, as there should/will be. Some things take adjustment, others will need to be fixed; but the rhetoric is getting old, very fast.

 

[XOR != OR]

1) OP: Don't push your customers into doing something they don't want. It's impolite, and it will bite you in the ass if you keep it up. Explain to them why you think they should, and let them make the decision. If they don't make the choice you would make, fine, it's their hardware and you gave them the data they need. Continue supporting them regardless.

This is a mistake I've seen a lot of techs make; We are a support industry folks. For all intents and purposes, we are glorified digital butlers. We serve the end user. We do not brow beat them into doing what we want. Don't like that notion, you are in the wrong field.

2) The enthusiast community has taken the "wait and see" approach. Which, unless my memory fails me ( and who knows, I am getting old ), was the same we took with XP when it came out. It's a very sane approach to a new OS, especially one as new as Vista.

 

[calebb]

OP, I feel for you, I really do. And anyone else with some sense and the ability to think for themselves.

Luckly, my father and I have convinced every member of our extended family, who calls on us for support, to switch.

Ya' wanna know something, previously we got a call once a month if not more, previous OS releases or new comps got us a call every week if not two; since January, we've had 1 or two calls from only 2 or 3 and in all cases it was/is an issue with something they just bought (or had in a garage/attic some where) not having drivers ready or avilable. No lie.

I know there are issues, as there should/will be. Some things take adjustment, others will need to be fixed; but the rhetoric is getting old, very fast.

Wow, cool story - I'm adding that post to my "Vista FUD debunking" folder.

 

[dot_Zen]

Word, glad I could shed some light. I actually neutered it a bit. Two of them have boxes that were terminated because they were neigh impossible to completely clean and they were proprietary HP or Dell machines -- out of warranty. So, for them to have a stable PC after, almost, 4 months is a major load off me and my pops backs.

 

[Gatticus]

Try the Laserjet III drivers - and official 1018 drivers should be out in July.

Also, boot over to Vista - there are tons of driver updates that can be installed via windows update - see if that fixes your issues with the soundcard, TV card, onboard ethernet.

If not, create a new thread and I'd be more than happy to help you properly configure your Vista installation.

Thanks for the offer but I alreqady know how to properly configure Vista. I already know HP Vista drivers will be out in June-July and I know I can fudge it by using other drivers but I don't want to do that as I can usre it in XP, EMU is working on Vista drivers and the TV Tuner will never get Vista drivers as I already asked the manufacturer. I only have Vista installed as test and bitch system and use XP for real work.

 

[duby229]

OP, I feel for you, I really do. And anyone else with some sense and the ability to think for themselves.

Luckly, my father and I have convinced every member of our extended family, who calls on us for support, to switch.

Hold on, wait a minute, let me get this straight... You feel for the op and anybody else who can think for themselves? Why is that a bad thing? Why would you feel for them? Shouldnt that be a good thing?

And then you thought for every member of your family for them.....

I dont get it. Sounds like communism to me.

 

[duby229]

If you think about it- Microsoft could be a huge success with a campaign for Windows.
Most people still think Norton is the bomb, why not build on it with the findings Symantec did a while back, about Windows being the most secure OS?
"A study by Symantec, the people who bring you Norton, shows not only do Windows PCs contain less problems than Macs, but are patched at a much faster rate".
I.

And then two days later Jobs would have an Ad out showing the old windows fart wearing an old pair of jeans with a bunch of raggedy old patches in it. Saying "I just got my "holes" fixed. Dont it look so much better now?"

 

[Zardoz]

Sheep, I love it. lets me keep my job...

BTW I run Vista love it, best thing ever...

 

[dot_Zen]

Hold on, wait a minute, let me get this straight... You feel for the op and anybody else who can think for themselves? Why is that a bad thing? Why would you feel for them? Shouldnt that be a good thing?

And then you thought for every member of your family for them.....

I don't get it. Sounds like communism to me.

Duby, stop trolling this thread please. The ppl that comment was intended for know how to comprehend it.

My family asks me for help, I've tried and still try to give them the resources they need to work the issue themselves; they have no interest. So, since I care for them and don't want them to deal with the headaches the OP has to put up with, then yes, I help them.

If you wanna attack someone attack me, BUT don't drag my family through your mud-slinging factory. In my neck of the woods, 'them's fighin' words'.

 

[xbeemer]

I don't watch television, so I've never seen the Apple ads (which must have at least a kernel of truth, to be so effective); and I've been building my own computers for years. I was looking forward to using Vista, as it is the first new OS out of Microsoft for several years. They have a huge and very talented development team, I was sure it would be a winner.

But, by my lights, it's not. It doesn't suck, exactly, but it is not an improvement over XP in anything that counts, and the compatibility issues are much worse than anything we've seen since Windows 2K - which WAS an improvement, just a damn incompatible one at first.

Vista, however is not an improvement over XP, with the possible exception of user control, keeping office workers and mothers in law from loading malware, or mucking with system files. I don't consider this an improvement because it benefits someone other than the user. Certainly it's not an improvement for the computer savvy people who use this forum.

In fact (lifting a few paragraphs from an earlier post elsewhere), the whole thing smells of a marketing driven operation, not a real improvement for users. Unlike the previous versions of Windows that really did offer improved versions.

Except perhaps for Windows Me, which was also a boondoggle. Although it strikes me that Windows Me was a sincere attempt to make Windows more user friendly, it just failed; whereas Vista strikes me as a cynical attempt to force money out of a monopoly.

We saw that a generation ago with IBM, and they were superceded by an upstart, geeky company called Microsoft. I think history is ripe to repeat itself.

 

[Finn]

I've never seen a single Apple ad but I write this right after doing my first Vista install.

The OS is definately prettyer than xp. It is also markedly slower and bulkier.

Installation on a Amilo A1630 (A64 3700+, R9700 mobility, 1 gig ram) laptop produced a working desktop but no sound and no multimedia capabilities whatsoever.

Windows mediaplayer 11 refused to install on fresh Vista installation, reported an unknown error. Therefore my desktop capturing plans for a training video went down the tubes pretty effectively.

So upon testing, the SECOND application I tried did not work. And upon trying to fix the problem (missing WMVcore) WMP11 refused to install. That's 3 broken out of 4 tried.

Verdict: POS major time.

And for those who claim it works better than XP - lay off the crack pipe already.

Ya' wanna know something, previously we got a call once a month if not more, previous OS releases or new comps got us a call every week if not two; since January, we've had 1 or two calls from only 2 or 3 and in all cases it was/is an issue with something they just bought (or had in a garage/attic some where) not having drivers ready or avilable. No lie.

Heh they probably gave up trying to even use the thing in general.

Just wait untill Vista gets as old as that 4-5 years old XP install and see the amount of call s you'll be taking. XP SP2 works absolutely flawlessly out of the box, which cannot be said about Vista by a long shot.

 

[dot_Zen]

Wow, the anti-Vistaettes will say anything.

So, you tried installing WMP11 even though it comes pre-loaded in Vista. Wise choice.




Jesus, I really shouldn't have brought my family up around you bunch of FUD mongerors. Your so pompous to think you know my family better than I. What a sad and pathetic exist you must live.

Before anyone else tries to chime in about them, what their new OS is, how they enjoy it and how I enjoy the peace of mind; It works. End of.

 

[dot_Zen]

[Snip..] I don't consider this an improvement because it benefits someone other than the user. Certainly it's not an improvement for the computer savvy people who use this forum.

Lemme guess, those of us who have said we know what we're doing, can prove and do so on a daily basis with our chosen career field --and on this forum-- have no idea what we're talking about.

Give me a break....

This is really getting old..

I'm not minimizing your issues, should you have the, but don't make such far reaching statements that do not encompass the groups you think you know all about. Plenty of us "Computer savvy" people have already made our choice --for this stage of OS deliverables-- and Vista has won us over for the time being.