ZeniMax Lawsuit Against Oculus Directly Accuses John Carmack Of Theft

Megalith

Megalith

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ZeniMax is now accusing Carmack of stealing (copying) thousands of VR-related documents and a customized development tool from their offices shortly before and after he stopped working for them. The company also insists that Palmer Luckey is a liar and that he didn’t invent Rift’s VR technology.

"For many years, ZeniMax invested tens of millions of dollars in research and development, including research into virtual reality and immersive technologies. In 2011 and 2012, John Carmack, a singularly experienced and highly proficient ZeniMax programmer who was at that time Technical Director for ZeniMax’s Texas-based subsidiary, id Software, conducted research to address technological issues associated with virtual reality," the complaint reads. "Carmack and other ZeniMax employees conducted that research at ZeniMax offices, on ZeniMax computers, and using ZeniMax resources."
 
Smells like a counter suit will be coming about Zeni using their creation after letting them go. ie..Does Arista Records own Master of Puppets or does Metallica own it.......
 
Seen this about a week ago. Was crazy hearing all the stuff they were adding to their lawsuit. Accusing him of stealing technology, coming back after being fired and stealing equipment.... if even close to true that is some crazy shit.
 
ir0nw0lf said:
/popcorn :geek:
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DrLobotomy said:
Smells like a counter suit will be coming about Zeni using their creation after letting them go. ie..Does Arista Records own Master of Puppets or does Metallica own it.......
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This is pretty clear cut in employment law. Inventions made while under the employ of a company ALWAYS belong to that company. You can't take them with you when you leave.

You can take the experience gained while developing them with you - however - which leads to a tricky situation if you then go and develop something similar. It becomes less clear cut in this case How do you determine if a design is a copy of work done on behalf of a previous employer, or if the experience gained while working on that project on behalf of the previous employer simply resulted in a similar design.
 
Exavior said:
Seen this about a week ago. Was crazy hearing all the stuff they were adding to their lawsuit. Accusing him of stealing technology, coming back after being fired and stealing equipment.... if even close to true that is some crazy shit.
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I don't know where you got the information he was fired. Officially he quit ID because he was more interested in VR tech and didn't have the bandwidth to work at both Oculus and ID at the same time. In interviews since then he has stated he quit in protest because his new corporate overlords at Zenimax wouldn't let him dedicate the resources it would take to turn new ID titles (Like DOOM 4) into VR games.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I don't know where you got the information he was fired. Officially he quit ID because he was more interested in VR tech and didn't have the bandwidth to work at both Oculus and ID at the same time. In interviews since then he has stated he quit in protest because his new corporate overlords at Zenimax wouldn't let him dedicate the resources it would take to turn new ID titles (Like DOOM 4) into VR games.
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In the filing by Zenimax they repeatedly say "terminated" which doesn't specifically mean he was fired but I can see how someone might interpret it that way.
 
Hellstoaster said:
In the filing by Zenimax they repeatedly say "terminated" which doesn't specifically mean he was fired but I can see how someone might interpret it that way.
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Probably purposely chosen language intended to mislead without being factually incorrect.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
This is pretty clear cut in employment law. Inventions made while under the employ of a company ALWAYS belong to that company. You can't take them with you when you leave..
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This is not entirely accurate......

it generally only applies to things made *ON THE CLOCK*. If John went home and made stuff on his OWN personal time. then Zenimax has no claims to it.
 
Axehandler said:
This is not entirely accurate......

it generally only applies to things made *ON THE CLOCK*. If John went home and made stuff on his OWN personal time. then Zenimax has no claims to it.
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Well yeah, that is implied. Though it can be very difficult to make that distinction sometimes, and many (most?) tech companies actually make you sign an agreement that ANYTHING you develop during your employment dates belongs to them, regardless of whether or not it was during business hours. I've had to sign these many times in my career.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I don't know where you got the information he was fired. Officially he quit ID because he was more interested in VR tech and didn't have the bandwidth to work at both Oculus and ID at the same time. In interviews since then he has stated he quit in protest because his new corporate overlords at Zenimax wouldn't let him dedicate the resources it would take to turn new ID titles (Like DOOM 4) into VR games.
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I am sorry, I don't know why i said being fired, meant to say after his employment ended. Guess I was typing something different than I was thinking. :(
 
Zenimax is claiming the Oculus is entirely based on work they had done yet I read papers on Lucky's work long before Carmac, and by extension Zenimax, was involved. Add to that the fact that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of them being interested in VR until after Carmack left and Oculus was bought by Facebook. As far as I know Zenimax has nothing but their word, no patents, no whitepaper on the tech, no announcements, no prototypes, nothing. If the Oculus was based entirely on Zenimax property Lucky wouldn't have gotten as far as he did in order to gain the attention of Carmack which then incited Carmack's departure. None of Zenimax's claims fit the timeline of events... unless they invented time travel too. I hope this whole thing burns them hard.
 
From the [H] front page, Tuesday Aug 22, 2016..

ZeniMax Versus Oculus Heats Up (comments)

Hopefully, this isn't proof that Megalith doesn't read the [H] news during the week just like it seems sometimes Steve doesn't read it during the weekends!!

I hate it when I get a [H] Déjà Vu moment.. I'm too old :oldman: to spend my time wondering if I am going crazy or not!!

image.png



<rant>
If you want to say I am the "repost/old post police", I am fine with that. Yes, something might be wrong on the Internet but it might be something I can help fix!! Perhaps if I bug Steve & Megalith enough not to repost old news, it might stop!! I come to [H] every day and one reason is that I EXPECT the [H] News to have interesting, unique & current items, not reposts of six day old articles.
</rant>
 
Insula Gilliganis said:
From the [H] front page, Tuesday Aug 22, 2016..

ZeniMax Versus Oculus Heats Up (comments)

Hopefully, this isn't proof that Megalith doesn't read the [H] news during the week just like it seems sometimes Steve doesn't read it during the weekends!!

I hate it when I get a [H] Déjà Vu moment.. I'm too old :oldman: to spend my time wondering if I am going crazy or not!!



<rant>
If you want to say I am the "repost/old post police", I am fine with that. Yes, something might be wrong on the Internet but it might be something I can help fix!! Perhaps if I bug Steve & Megalith enough not to repost old news, it might stop!! I come to [H] every day and one reason is that I EXPECT the [H] News to have interesting, unique & current items, not reposts of six day old articles.
</rant>
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Meh, I missed the initial post and I'm happy about the repost :)

The cynic in me defaults to thinking that it is just another greedy sue happy company doing what they do. I find it hard to believe Carmack would be that stupid. Also, an employer doesn't own the knowledge you gain about a subject while working for them.
 
grifter_66 said:
Zenimax is claiming the Oculus is entirely based on work they had done yet I read papers on Lucky's work long before Carmac, and by extension Zenimax, was involved. Add to that the fact that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of them being interested in VR until after Carmack left and Oculus was bought by Facebook. As far as I know Zenimax has nothing but their word, no patents, no whitepaper on the tech, no announcements, no prototypes, nothing. If the Oculus was based entirely on Zenimax property Lucky wouldn't have gotten as far as he did in order to gain the attention of Carmack which then incited Carmack's departure. None of Zenimax's claims fit the timeline of events... unless they invented time travel too. I hope this whole thing burns them hard.
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The issue at hand is the removal of Zenimax property, not their interest or work in VR. They don't have be working on or even care about the tech at all to move forward; everything and anything they were 'developing' seems to have been with Carmack, and they likely have sole legal rights to his work and ideas. His talking that work or those ideas and developing them with another company is the problem.

If their claims are true, it's a pretty simple case. I truly hope that it works out for John, but again, this will be hard to beat if what they are saying is valid and they have proof.
 
Prisoner849 said:
The issue at hand is the removal of Zenimax property, not their interest or work in VR. They don't have be working on or even care about the tech at all to move forward; everything and anything they were 'developing' seems to have been with Carmack, and they likely have sole legal rights to his work and ideas. His talking that work or those ideas and developing them with another company is the problem.

If their claims are true, it's a pretty simple case. I truly hope that it works out for John, but again, this will be hard to beat if what they are saying is valid and they have proof.
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I doubt there is proof, Carmac left Zeni almost two years before this lawsuit even came about, and the suit only happened after Occulus was bought by facebook for a stupid amount of money. I imagine what happened is Zenimax was looking to aquire Occulus thinking having Carmac over there might help negotiate the deal then facebook offers more money then God and we have a lawsuit.
 
Presbytier said:
I doubt there is proof, Carmac left Zeni almost two years before this lawsuit even came about, and the suit only happened after Occulus was bought by facebook for a stupid amount of money. I imagine what happened is Zenimax was looking to aquire Occulus thinking having Carmac over there might help negotiate the deal then facebook offers more money then God and we have a lawsuit.
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I truly hope you are right. Just have to wait and see.
 
Axehandler said:
This is not entirely accurate......

it generally only applies to things made *ON THE CLOCK*. If John went home and made stuff on his OWN personal time. then Zenimax has no claims to it.
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It generally means things made on the clock, OR within the realm of the employers business. This falls into the latter, and it will likely come down, barring evidence of actual physical theft, demonstrating that the employer repeatedly expressed that said product was not a desirable product and Cramack should stop working on it. If they said don't work on that or you are fired, there's a hard case to make that they are now in competition with you on a technology you explicitly forbade them from pursuing while under your employ.
 
Whether or not ZeniMax wins this (and who knows with how unfair the legal system is - Facebook/Carmack will likely just settle), this is going to make them look REAL BAD to many of their fans and customers, similar to Kojima and Konami. Bad, stupid, short-sighted move GreediMax... you'll lose out in the end for this, I guarantee it. You already look like shit for allowing Bethesda to rot (in complacency and lack of innovation/technological progress) and practically destroying id Software (who was likely "saved" by how good the new DooM turned out), but still Zeni made good strides into messing up that shit real good!
 
Actually this is an area that is really screwed up. If JC did the work at home it is his, but only if it was done with his software and hardware. If he even used a scrap piece of paper from the trash owned by ZeniMax/ID to write down an idea most employment contracts dictate that it is NOT his property but ZeniMax's. Same goes with software. If he used any compiler, editor, tool, etc... owned by ZeniMax/ID then that property is ZeniMax's. Funny thing is say you got all that separated but ran out of ink in your pen and used one from ZeniMax then whatever you wrote down with that pen also is owned by ZeniMax. That's why ZeniMax has the balls to go after John Carmack, because it is practically impossible to not have tripped up somewhere before he left. I remember when I first got one of those agreements to sign, I was really like WTF is this. In the early days it even tried to claim project you were working on in your spare time, they wanted a list of stuff you were writing at home, they'd even encourage you to use the company's software licenses at home like new versions of OSes or Development environments because they knew full well that if you used it or even if you didn't but did install it, they can reasonably take possession of anything you came up with off hours via lawyers if you actually made anything worth something.
 
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