Young People Can No Longer Fix Gadgets

J3RK said:
The biggest problem isn't that the cars are relying on computers. It's that they're using this to basically DRM their own brands of parts and services.
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This. Yes, DRM for specific makes, models, electronics. It's really really sad now.
 
dandragonrage said:
Does Hakko even have soldering irons that compare with JBC? JBCs are $400+. I know Hakko is well-liked for relatively inexpensive units around like $50-150, but I'm not aware of them making anything that compares with my JBC. My JBC does not struggle with large ground planes or with anything else that my WES51 had trouble with.

Hakko units and the WES51 are generally considered good enough and good value, and you don't NEED a JBC, but it really makes soldering a lot easier and more fun.

I did not go check Hakko's catalog when writing this post, so if they do have comparable (and high-priced) units that compare with JBC, disregard this post.
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I actually hadn't looked at JBC before, so didn't know what I was comparing to. I just took a look at the CD-1SD, and it looks very nice. I do enough work that the cost isn't that big an issue for me. I've never actually had a problem with large ground planes though. (but I've heard the same complaint from others, so you're not the first) I run mine fairly hot though (around 720-750F). I'm all for spending money on anything that makes things easier though. Honestly though, I'm doing mostly through-hole analog design, with a small amount of manual SMT parts with some of my boards, so I'm not exactly struggling even with the WES-51. I'm kind of a tool-nerd though, and hadn't seen the JBCs until you mentioned them. Very cool :cool: Whether I actually NEED one is another thing entirely. :D I think the Hakko I'm looking at would be more than adequate. Still though... Shiny new tools...
 
$500 for an oil change in a 3-series BMW? Either the dealer is doing more than just changing the oil or else he is ripping off the owner.
The last time, and only time, I took my '05 M3 to a dealer for an oil change the charge was around $260. That was for 1 hour of labour at $120, a filter, and 6 litres of very expensive oil (Castrol TWS 10W-60 at $20/litre). Those were Canadian prices, which are normally steeper than US prices. A non-M 3-series uses much cheaper oil.

$45 for an oil change? Even now it costs me a minimum of $100 to change my oil myself, using oil that meets BMW's specs. But my required spec oil still costs around $15/litre.
 
You don't need to set the JBC hotter than you actually need to be, which means it can actually save components from overheating. I had to set the WES51 to near-max-temp to handle large ground planes as well, but it becomes dangerous to the components if you contact them for too long or if you forget to turn it down when you move from the component with the large ground plane over to a tiny surface mount component that has much less therman mass.

I don't recommend everyone buy JBC due to the cost but if you do a lot of soldering, I really, really recommend it.

I first learned of JBC last year (or it might have been early this year) from EEVBlog.
 
dandragonrage said:
Whatever you are choosing to do with your time instead of being responsible and not creating 800 tons of garbage per week is not of any value. I understand where you are coming from, but you are wrong because your values are in the wrong place to begin with.
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You're essentially saying "you're wrong because I think you're wrong". That is, your "values" and "responsibility" are things that aren't universal in the first place. I'll answer that with a "Nuh uh, you're the one that's wrong because I think you're wrong". Okay, done.

Furthermore, if you think I'm in line with creating tons of garbage per week, you didn't really read my post. There are other ways to avoid repairing besides replacing products constantly. It's getting things that last.... not to mention many of the reasons that you repair things don't necessarily create any more garbage to begin with.

... This is really a silly reply from you all around.
 
It's silly to call someone who says "I should only have to spend my time doing things that are fun" irresponsible? News to me.
 
No, but apparently "I should only have to construct straw man arguments" is a good definition for you.
 
dandragonrage said:
Whatever you are choosing to do with your time instead of being responsible and not creating 800 tons of garbage per week is not of any value. I understand where you are coming from, but you are wrong because your values are in the wrong place to begin with.
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That all depends on what you think is valuable. Is your time more valuable than fixing the broken item? Gotta evaluate that.

For example, friend came to me to fix his Samsung phone. The screen was cracked and a replacement was $150. A new phone same model and everything was $135. Clearly not worth it, but the replacement had to be like $20-$40 for it to be worth fixing. Battery had expanded and cracked the screen and battery cover, which means those two items needed to be replaced as well.

Changing a $5 capacitors on a TV is worth it over buying a new TV? Depends on the TV itself. Changing the brakes on the car? Depends on your tools and knowledge. Fixing the drain in a sink?

Over time refusing to learn how to do basic repairs does create a brick wall. If you didn't learn it at a young age it's difficult to get started now. Cause it's not just learning about how the repair needs to be done, but how to go about it. Learning how to use the tools and of course getting the tools themselves. It does seem very off putting and a huge time sink for anyone who's never done this stuff before. For people who already have experience and talent in fixing things, the time is figuring out what is the cause and not the repair itself.
 
dandragonrage said:
You don't need to set the JBC hotter than you actually need to be, which means it can actually save components from overheating. I had to set the WES51 to near-max-temp to handle large ground planes as well, but it becomes dangerous to the components if you contact them for too long or if you forget to turn it down when you move from the component with the large ground plane over to a tiny surface mount component that has much less therman mass.

I don't recommend everyone buy JBC due to the cost but if you do a lot of soldering, I really, really recommend it.

I first learned of JBC last year (or it might have been early this year) from EEVBlog.
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Nice! Yeah, I do keep it pretty high. I haven't fried anything yet. I use organic water soluble core, then no-clean for non-sealed components. Pretty standard stuff. I use lead-based solder, so it's a little more forgiving. Like I said, I probably don't NEED one, but it does sound like it would be somewhat beneficial. I solder probably around 15 hours a week. I design and build analog modular synthesizers, and do a fair amount of custom work for people, not to mention a metric ton of prototyping for it all. Might pick one of these guys up next time I sell something. I appreciate the tip.
 
If you want a more serious reply, fine:

It actually doesn't pay to spend your off-time doing the same stuff you do at your dayjob. If your job requires you to learn something new, they will still pay for your time to learn it. In most cases you won't even need to do a lot of learning to keep your job. And you are not going to just get a bunch of extra money if you go tell your boss you learned something new. If you think that is how employment as a programmer works, you either work for a company better than I ever have as well as any of my friends (the ones that talk about their jobs, at least) or you're a little naive.

I agree with you that you shouldn't buy low-end crap and expect it to last forever, and if you agree that creating tons (literally) of waste because of this idea is unacceptable, fine.

I am also a programmer and I can fix cars, do a fair amount of carpentry (though I wouldn't exactly want to build a house on my own), plumbing (can do most of it no problem), electrical (will do anything except the main service between the line and my distribution box, but I would do it if I needed to, and I would make sure to learn everything there is to know about doing that job safely first), electronics (went to trade school for it before going to college for comp sci), etc. Sometimes it is a severe-pain-in-the-ass to fix something, but usually it's some mix of PITA and fun. And the worse the job is, the more satisfaction I get when I complete it, so it sort of pays off. I refuse to let any problem get the better of me. The harder something is, the more effort I will put into it.

Someone also mentioned bicycles. I've decided to convert my ~1995 Python Bonecrusher to an e-bike. I've learned most of the maintenance done on bicycles and will be replacing my headset, fork, brakes (converting to disc), and a bunch more. Eventually I plan to convert from the cheap Chinese hub motor I bought (which is generally OK, but hub motors are heavy and make it hard to pedal w/o electric assistance) to a mid-motor which will make it easier to pedal and also allow me to shift gears with the motor. I could have easily bought an e-bike or paid someone to convert it, but why should I? I have a perfectly good bike, perfectly good tools and a reasonably decent brain. And when I finish it all, I will have a bike that I built, that I will treasure and enjoy. Yeah, I could've spent all that time playing more World of Tanks, but I've still got plenty of time for that, even with these projects.
 
J3RK said:
I agree. We've been through three refrigerators in our kitchen since I bought the house in 2006. THREE! They suck. The drawers break, the hoses leak, the compressors fail. It's ridiculous, but obviously there's not much choice. We have a horribly ugly 70s refrigerator in the basement that holds extra food, drinks, etc. and it has never failed. The thing is older than I am, and it just keeps working. It's too ugly to put in our kitchen, but there you have it.
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You know why? Because EPA/Energy Star requirements have made the compressors so damned efficient, that they fail after 5 years. In fact, I bought a new fridge with a 10 year compressor. In 2014 the requirements changed on fridge compressors again, where they will basically only last 5 years. There is a lot more driving this type of waste than most people know and frankly, government is at the head of the list for why.
 
Also, jumping around between programming jobs should also not require learning that much, at least not stuff you'd have to learn on your own time. Most of the stuff you'll do in a programming job is the same even if you switch to a different programming job at a different company. I mean I suppose if you only know some crappy language like VB and you want a real programming job, sure, spend some time learning a proper C-based language. But that's not going to be something you'll have to spend your entire career doing.

Being a programmer is not the same as being a doctor. Now that would be a tough job requiring a ton of your time, if not dealing with patients, learning about new discoveries, new drugs, new supplements, etc.
 
dandragonrage said:
I didn't realize that BMW was as bad as it has gotten. It has been added to my do-not-buy list (which already has Volvo on it). I would never have bought one anyway, though, because Audi is both better and cheaper. BMW has some of the worst AWD out there. Absolutely unacceptable for what it costs.
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I love the 335D. It's an awesome car. Drives like a dream, but when shit goes bad. It goes bad. I would never recommend a BMW to anyone again. Not after the bullshit I've gone through with this car.
 
Methadras said:
This is fairly true, but good luck working on them, in many cases without specialized tools. For example, I own a 2011 BMW 335D. The battery died, I swapped it out at $200 (incredible how battery prices have skyrocketed). After calling my BMW dealer to make sure I got the right battery, they said I had to bring it in for reprogramming to the new battery and another $250 to do that. Neither of which is covered by my factory warranty or extended warranty. I'm just using this as an example. But the reprogramming part really irked me for some reason.

Yeah, I've worked on cars since I was a wee lad, but it's getting harder and harder. My 2000 F150 4.2L V6 is awesome to work on and easy. For a fairly modern vehicle, it's pretty good. Brakes, clutches, fluids, etc are no problem, but the electronics to drive them if you change anything might become a pain.
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There are plenty of ways to do that for less than $100. Hit the coding sections of the BMW forums and there are tons of walkthroughs.

Everyone wants a list of features a mile long in their new cars but they complain incessantly about the repair complexity and weight that comes with it. You can't have one without the other. The simple fact is that cars are evolving and those of us that work on them either need to evolve too or stfu because there is nobody to blame but ourselves. There is proprietary software but that generally doesn't affect service items and it certainly isn't a new trend.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Posting in a thread where people lament about how things were and how they perceive things are now in much the same way that countless people have done before in an attempt to make the future seem bleak to no avail despite all the moaning and groaning. :D
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No kidding. It's almost like technology is constantly moving forward and changing or something, while we all get older.
 
Wrote that reply before this grew to three pages. Feel free to ignore, heh.
 
Methadras said:
I love the 335D. It's an awesome car. Drives like a dream, but when shit goes bad. It goes bad. I would never recommend a BMW to anyone again. Not after the bullshit I've gone through with this car.
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Those are German cars for you. They survive on reputation and reputation alone these days.
 
Blown 89 said:
There are plenty of ways to do that for less than $100. Hit the coding sections of the BMW forums and there are tons of walkthroughs.

Everyone wants a list of features a mile long in their new cars but they complain incessantly about the repair complexity and weight that comes with it. You can't have one without the other. The simple fact is that cars are evolving and those of us that work on them either need to evolve too or stfu because there is nobody to blame but ourselves. There is proprietary software but that generally doesn't affect service items and it certainly isn't a new trend.
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I normally would have done that if it was on the weekend, but during the weekday and it's my daily driver, it was a matter of inconvenience is all, hadn't the time to deal with it. Just had to get it done. Next time though, I'll be ready and the two BMW forums I go to are pretty informative, but in reality it is just sad to see the levels to which many of these car companies have driven their customers to basically find ways around their bullshit. That's just me. I'm an evolve or die kind of guy, but at some point, I gotta draw a line in the sand.
 
Methadras said:
You know why? Because EPA/Energy Star requirements have made the compressors so damned efficient, that they fail after 5 years. In fact, I bought a new fridge with a 10 year compressor. In 2014 the requirements changed on fridge compressors again, where they will basically only last 5 years. There is a lot more driving this type of waste than most people know and frankly, government is at the head of the list for why.
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And the sad part is that replacing a fridge after 5 years wastes far more energy than building one that will last for 15 years.

Besides, there's no reason the regulation would cause the compressor to only last 5 years, it's mainly a cost saving choice by the manufacture. They could build a fridge that last 20+ years and meets all the regulation, but it would likely cost another 30% or more.

And while people have pointed out that monitors and TV's are cheaper, that doesn't apply to appliances. Fridges, washers and dryers have increased in price significantly over the years. If I where to replace my 15 year old fridge with a similar one today, it would cost me almost double what I paid back then.
 
Blown 89 said:
There are plenty of ways to do that for less than $100. Hit the coding sections of the BMW forums and there are tons of walkthroughs.

Everyone wants a list of features a mile long in their new cars but they complain incessantly about the repair complexity and weight that comes with it. You can't have one without the other. The simple fact is that cars are evolving and those of us that work on them either need to evolve too or stfu because there is nobody to blame but ourselves. There is proprietary software but that generally doesn't affect service items and it certainly isn't a new trend.
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You are right that sometimes these deterrents put in place by car manufacturers can be worked around. It is definitely worth looking into when you need to service the car. Absolutely.

That said, these features can be added in consumer-friendly ways. I want active differentials with torque vectoring, for example, and that is a complex feature that requires many sensors to work together. However that does not force a car manufacturer to design parts that DO THE SAME THING for their different model cars. It does not force Volvo to require every module be programmed to the car when all they would need to do is have the part identify itself by its part number and/or features and have the car check that it is compatible that way (though in some cases when a part is succeeded FOR VALID REASONS you might still need to bring it to the dealer, but this is to some degree acceptable).

Companies do this for several reasons:
-To force customers to keep buying service from them
-To try to ensure that customers don't screw up their stuff by doing sub-par repairs - a valid concern and there are proper ways of dealing with this that don't screw all customers over (and to some degree this is a cost of business that they need to - AND ALREADY DO - factor into their prices)
-To convince customers, via high cost repairs, to just say "screw it" and buy the latest BMW instead of having their perfectly-repairable car fixed
 
nutzo said:
And the sad part is that replacing a fridge after 5 years wastes far more energy than building one that will last for 15 years.

Besides, there's no reason the regulation would cause the compressor to only last 5 years, it's mainly a cost saving choice by the manufacture. They could build a fridge that last 20+ years and meets all the regulation, but it would likely cost another 30% or more.

And while people have pointed out that monitors and TV's are cheaper, that doesn't apply to appliances. Fridges, washers and dryers have increased in price significantly over the years. If I where to replace my 15 year old fridge with a similar one today, it would cost me almost double what I paid back then.
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You are correct and every point you made is a direct result of regulatory pressures to sell these types of appliance for the sake of environment. A short sighted solution with a seriously long term problem. Again, this is driven by government. They are really not your friend on any front.
 
Methadras said:
You know why? Because EPA/Energy Star requirements have made the compressors so damned efficient, that they fail after 5 years. In fact, I bought a new fridge with a 10 year compressor. In 2014 the requirements changed on fridge compressors again, where they will basically only last 5 years. There is a lot more driving this type of waste than most people know and frankly, government is at the head of the list for why.
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How do you increase the efficiency of a compressor? I hear they are switching to vacuum sides, and dc brushless compressors.

Thats like trying to increase the efficiency of a water heater.

Still, your 80's fridge cost $800 a year to run, your 2014 fridge cost $400 to run, so how much are you saving keeping the old one going?
 
Blown 89 said:
Everyone wants a list of features a mile long in their new cars but they complain incessantly about the repair complexity and weight that comes with it. You can't have one without the other. The simple fact is that cars are evolving and those of us that work on them either need to evolve too or stfu because there is nobody to blame but ourselves. There is proprietary software but that generally doesn't affect service items and it certainly isn't a new trend.
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True. My favorite car that I've owned was a 1972 911T. It was about as simple a car as it gets. Nice and light, and quite fast for what it was. (maybe not modern sports-car fast, but good enough for a car I drove daily) You could basically disassemble the whole car with a handful of wrenches if you wanted to. So simple, and quite elegant. I very much miss it, except it was a bit of a guzzler. It was only a 2.4 liter, but it had dual triple-choke Webers, and they weren't exactly efficient. (though I've had worse)
 
Methadras said:
You are correct and every point you made is a direct result of regulatory pressures to sell these types of appliance for the sake of environment. A short sighted solution with a seriously long term problem. Again, this is driven by government. They are really not your friend on any front.
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I agree that government regulations often screw things up like this, but I don't think governments are to blame, really. The end-user is nearly always to blame.

If people would have paid attention to the repair practices of German cars, they would have stopped buying them. The response by the manufacturers would be to fix the problem because they need their business to actually survive.

If people would research things they buy, they would care more about reliability instead of deciding to spend their time doing things that StoleMyOwnCar considers more fun. They would then spend the extra 20% for a quality product.

If people would research the candidates they vote for, we'd have less-corrupt politicians, or at the very least the corrupt politicians would spend far less time in office (which would convince other would-be politicians that such corruption does not work in their favor if they intend to stay in politics).

Almost every problem in the world comes down to the end-user, the citizen, whatever.

Capitalism and democracy/republics both require people to use their brains and research the things going on around them. In these systems, the end-user is the ultimate regulator, and when they fail to fill this RESPONSIBILITY, everyone suffers.
 
Ashbringer said:
That all depends on what you think is valuable. Is your time more valuable than fixing the broken item? Gotta evaluate that.

For example, friend came to me to fix his Samsung phone. The screen was cracked and a replacement was $150. A new phone same model and everything was $135. Clearly not worth it, but the replacement had to be like $20-$40 for it to be worth fixing. Battery had expanded and cracked the screen and battery cover, which means those two items needed to be replaced as well.

Changing a $5 capacitors on a TV is worth it over buying a new TV? Depends on the TV itself. Changing the brakes on the car? Depends on your tools and knowledge. Fixing the drain in a sink?

Over time refusing to learn how to do basic repairs does create a brick wall. If you didn't learn it at a young age it's difficult to get started now. Cause it's not just learning about how the repair needs to be done, but how to go about it. Learning how to use the tools and of course getting the tools themselves. It does seem very off putting and a huge time sink for anyone who's never done this stuff before. For people who already have experience and talent in fixing things, the time is figuring out what is the cause and not the repair itself.
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Bingo. I also find it funny how people assume that everything that you find enjoyable is instantly not productive. No one here has ever had a blast learning something useful? Well I have, and I can tell you that blast never came when I was scratching my head staring at a car. Enjoyable things can be valuable things. It just means you're more suited for them to begin with. I constructing digital circuits on a breadboard, but that doesn't apply to soldering things and working with analog necessarily. There is a time and a place to do things that you don't necessarily enjoy (though more power to you if you do anyway). That time is called work...

Well that's not to say that everything you do outside of work should be enjoyable. The dentist exists as a testament to that.

dandragonrage said:
If you want a more serious reply, fine:

It actually doesn't pay to spend your off-time doing the same stuff you do at your dayjob. If your job requires you to learn something new, they will still pay for your time to learn it. In most cases you won't even need to do a lot of learning to keep your job. And you are not going to just get a bunch of extra money if you go tell your boss you learned something new. If you think that is how employment as a programmer works, you either work for a company better than I ever have as well as any of my friends (the ones that talk about their jobs, at least) or you're a little naive.

I agree with you that you shouldn't buy low-end crap and expect it to last forever, and if you agree that creating tons (literally) of waste because of this idea is unacceptable, fine.

I am also a programmer and I can fix cars, do a fair amount of carpentry (though I wouldn't exactly want to build a house on my own), plumbing (can do most of it no problem), electrical (will do anything except the main service between the line and my distribution box, but I would do it if I needed to, and I would make sure to learn everything there is to know about doing that job safely first), electronics (went to trade school for it before going to college for comp sci), etc. Sometimes it is a severe-pain-in-the-ass to fix something, but usually it's some mix of PITA and fun. And the worse the job is, the more satisfaction I get when I complete it, so it sort of pays off. I refuse to let any problem get the better of me. The harder something is, the more effort I will put into it.

Someone also mentioned bicycles. I've decided to convert my ~1995 Python Bonecrusher to an e-bike. I've learned most of the maintenance done on bicycles and will be replacing my headset, fork, brakes (converting to disc), and a bunch more. Eventually I plan to convert from the cheap Chinese hub motor I bought (which is generally OK, but hub motors are heavy and make it hard to pedal w/o electric assistance) to a mid-motor which will make it easier to pedal and also allow me to shift gears with the motor. I could have easily bought an e-bike or paid someone to convert it, but why should I? I have a perfectly good bike, perfectly good tools and a reasonably decent brain. And when I finish it all, I will have a bike that I built, that I will treasure and enjoy. Yeah, I could've spent all that time playing more World of Tanks, but I've still got plenty of time for that, even with these projects.
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It depends on your corporate structure. I didn't necessarily mean learning something entirely related to programming anyhow. I was planning to go into a master's degree (for instance) in something like statistical analysis and big data. Because they actually interest me and I think finding competent people in those areas is actually very hard. The groups around me are all complaining about how they don't have anyone that can analyze all of this crapton of data they have. So learning skills that make you more valuable to your company (or some other company) are all fair game. The key is expanding your horizons in ways that are marketable... well probably. I haven't gotten any promotions quite yet, but that is my instinct speaking.

Anyway, as for your other things: that's great. See, you're admitting that you enjoy doing those things, though. Now taking this a little further into the philosophical realm here's another question: what makes your time spent on those objectively more valuable than, for instance, playing World of Tanks all of the time?
 
Methadras said:
I love the 335D. It's an awesome car. Drives like a dream, but when shit goes bad. It goes bad. I would never recommend a BMW to anyone again. Not after the bullshit I've gone through with this car.
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Thats literally every single German car I've come across. When it works - brilliant! When it doesn't - bleh.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
Anyway, as for your other things: that's great. See, you're admitting that you enjoy doing those things, though. Now taking this a little further into the philosophical realm here's another question: what makes your time spent on those objectively more valuable than, for instance, playing World of Tanks all of the time?
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World of Tanks doesn't improve my life. It is (usually) fun that only lasts while I'm playing it, and sometimes it frustrates me very much as well (often due to my own shortcomings in playing the game, of which I won't bother going into detail). I spend a fair amount of time playing it, but it would be so irresponsible for me to spend all my time playing it to the point that I wouldn't even enjoy it.

I enjoy the other things because I enjoy solving problems in general. Actually, even more I should say that I enjoy the feeling I get once I have solved a problem.

Solving problems is how humans have become the dominant species on the planet and to see many people today have no interest disappoints me. If our ancestors were like people today, we wouldn't BE here today because our species would be extinct by now.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
How does your reply timing work anyway? It seems kinda confusing. :eek:
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  1. Work starts slowing down.
  2. See thread on forum.
  3. Stop working thanks to distraction.
  4. Start writing "witty" reply with no forethought.
  5. Hear kids doing kid things.
  6. Stop writing thanks to distraction.
  7. Deal with kids before someone dies or something breaks.
  8. Return to writing, submit reply.
  9. See that reply was pointless, thanks to elapsed time.
  10. Get back to work.
Feel free to replace "kids" with any other form of human-engineered distraction, on a given day. :p
 
It isn't just young people that don't want to repair things. People of all ages would rather just replace stuff than spend their time fixing things. I just got a new fan for my JVC receiver. I was surprised I could even get the part and I was thinking I might have to replace the receiver.

I don't change my own oil because it just isn't worth it for me I have every confidence the bulk oil and filters will be just fine. My parents haven't changed their own oil for years and the rest of the vehicle wears out before any engine issues.
 
It really does come down to what's worth it to you to spend your time on. I have tools, and a decent amount of knowledge on how to build and fix things. However, I do NOT want to spend time changing the oil on my car. If something on the car breaks, I will weigh out whether it makes sense to order the part, and install it, or take it down the street. (excellent mechanic nearby for those cases) I fix my furnace at home, and other things that many people might have someone else do. Other things, like my phone, I'd rather just replace, even if I could order a part or two.

For me it's a pretty healthy balance between the two. However, I still believe that everyone should have a decent set of tools, and attempt repairs that fall within their skill sets from time to time. It's just good for the brain, saves a bit of cash, etc. I actually prefer helping people that at least attempt to help themselves, and then call me when it gets beyond what they're comfortable with. I do the same thing. If something at home or on my car is beyond what I'm comfortable with, or just plain don't have time for, I'll see if my dad has time to help, or I'll drop it into the shop.

It doesn't really have to be black and white. Just evaluate the situation and deal with it in a way that makes sense.
 
J3RK said:
For me it's a pretty healthy balance between the two. However, I still believe that everyone should have a decent set of tools, and attempt repairs that fall within their skill sets from time to time. It's just good for the brain, saves a bit of cash, etc. I actually prefer helping people that at least attempt to help themselves, and then call me when it gets beyond what they're comfortable with. I do the same thing. If something at home or on my car is beyond what I'm comfortable with, or just plain don't have time for, I'll see if my dad has time to help, or I'll drop it into the shop.
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For me, I'll help a friend or relative fix something for free or little money. But if they don't want HELP fixing it, but rather for me to fix it FOR them, I'm going to charge them and it's not going to be a meager $20 or whatever. In most cases I would charge them less than they would pay a professional to do it, but I'm not about to spend hours of my life doing a job they can afford to pay for (and also have the time to do themselves) for a couple slices of pizza.
 
Heres my two cents worth. Feel free to disagree. :)

I place some of the blame for this whole mess on the MBAs, not the Engineers. The creed for the past few years has been to increase revenue and reduce costs. If that means using lower-cost parts, moving the manufacturing to another country, or engineering the product to fail after a few years, so be it. Look how well that worked out for GM and those ignition switches. I have a friend of mine who is swearing up a storm over how their Maytag refrigerator failed badly after a few years, and Maytag used to be known for reliability. Not anymore. Word is that the brand is about to be dropped by Whirlpool.

For plenty of consumer products, it isn't worth it to repair the item once it's broken. Sure, it's repairable, but the cost/benefit ratio just isn't there. This past year, my mother's BluRay player stopped playing discs. I ended up giving her my old BluRay player and got myself a new one which was not only cheaper, but more feature rich.

Then, there is the alternatives. I was about to take a long road trip in Fall, 2013. I discovered that the CD player on my car stopped working properly. It would have cost $300 to fix the CD player which I rarely used anymore. I ended up having a friend of mine install a FM modulator which connected directly to the antenna input of my car radio so that I tuned in to a specific frequency to listen to music/audiobooks from my cell phone/MP3 player. The install of that FM modulator cost less than it would to fix the CD player AND it gave me more functionality. (Oh, and before you ask, there was no feasible option to hook directly to the radio. I know, I googled it multiple times).

There are several reasons why I dislike Apple products. One of the reasons, as noted by iFixIt, is that over and over again, the products are notoriously hard to take apart and repair even for stuff that should be user serviceable, such as hard drive and memory. Apple has even made it hard to use third-party products. In OS X 10.10 Yosemite, Apple has effectively disabled TRIM for third-party products unless you disable device driver security.... all in the name of preserving Apple profits.

Meanwhile, I have just assembled a new desktop here. I know everything that went in my box, and I can easily go in and repair it or upgrade it. I don't believe that I saved money, but I got a system that I liked. Windows and Linux is a lot more configurable, and how many tweak guides are out there? My previous computer ended up lasting seven years, and several components from that computer ended up in my new box. While I was waiting for the 980 video card to actually become available (for the first two months, it was extremely hard to get), I ended up taking apart the old 460 video card that was crashing due to overheating, cleaned off the old thermal "dust", applying some Arctic Silver, and reassembled it. It worked great, and it is now slated to go into a financially-challenged friend's computer.

What brings up another point... there are people who will buy the absolute cheapest item, whether it be a television set or a DVD player, then are surprised when that item breaks down a year later. Yet, with a little bit of research and spending just a little more, they would have had something that lasts a bit longer. Yet, what do we have? People camping out for Black Friday deals on a no-name television.

Go figure.
 
ZLoth said:
I place some of the blame for this whole mess on the MBAs, not the Engineers. The creed for the past few years has been to increase revenue and reduce costs. If that means using lower-cost parts, moving the manufacturing to another country, or engineering the product to fail after a few years, so be it. Look how well that worked out for GM and those ignition switches. I have a friend of mine who is swearing up a storm over how their Maytag refrigerator failed badly after a few years, and Maytag used to be known for reliability. Not anymore. Word is that the brand is about to be dropped by Whirlpool.
Click to expand...

I agree that marketing and "businesspeople" often screw up quality and end up screwing over entire companies in the long run because they only know how to think of costs in the next 5 seconds.

However I would still say the main problem is consumers who, when a product is 20% cheaper than the brand they used to buy, will buy that cheaper product without doing any research or caring about the long term reliability or viability of their decision. Ultimately other businesses have to lower costs (by doing the same shit) because they can't sustain their business with the current prices and quality level. The only other thing they could do would be to raise prices to deal with the reduced volume, but then that drives off even more customers.

You do realize that consumers have this problem with the rest of your post, but the thing is these people drive once-good businesses to cut costs just like the low-quality brands that did so first.
 
mullet said:
Agreed, kids these days can barely fix a sandwich. When I was a kid I learned how to take cheap broken down stuff and make it like new. Kids now can't look at something and see the potential of what it could become with some work.
Click to expand...

When I was 7 I fixed a lawn-mower that my dad had been unable to get running for 2 years.
 
J3RK said:
True. My favorite car that I've owned was a 1972 911T. It was about as simple a car as it gets. Nice and light, and quite fast for what it was. (maybe not modern sports-car fast, but good enough for a car I drove daily) You could basically disassemble the whole car with a handful of wrenches if you wanted to. So simple, and quite elegant. I very much miss it, except it was a bit of a guzzler. It was only a 2.4 liter, but it had dual triple-choke Webers, and they weren't exactly efficient. (though I've had worse)
Click to expand...

Why you think I worked on my Vette? These cars are begging to be worked on. Lots of room in the engine area. Plenty of people online to help guide. The parts for a Vette are literally the same stuff you use in Chevy's and other GM cars. Yes, it is cheap to fix a Corvette. The car doesn't need an OBDII tool cause the dash with a series of button presses will tell you everything wrong. It uses a steel frame with everything bolted or glued on to it. Seriously the front inner fenders are glued on, which makes it a lot easier than cars with a unibody to do body work.

And you know what, that 5.7 V8 gets 30mpg with on demand instant power. Something wrong with all the new cars today.
 
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