Xbit Labs CS Source Benches

[Jbirney]

FS didn't show the same scores, FS with ATI AI off they got crushed lossing to nV in every level, up to a margin of 10 fps.

The lost by 10 or so in dust, "tied" in italy and cobble and lost bt 6/7 in aztec. Thats with all ops on using the NV cards and not all ops on the ATI cards. I would hardled call that crushed....Doom 3, yea they got crushed there

Also something is weird with CS:S as I did not think it was that throttled by the CPU but look at the NV scores for the GT/U going from no aa/af to full aa/af the loose approx 5/7 fps? Heck you can almost get AA/AF for free here

And the release of the HL 2 VST was a marketing stunt and ATi probably had alot to do with it.

If you have any proof would love to see it. Beside Gabe and others at vavle told us a long time ago thet the VST was coming. Since it was already coming out how is that an ATI Stunt?

As you can see now that the new nV drivers they are way ahead of ATi, now you know the reason for ATi's AI, they had a feeling this was going to happen since HL 2/CS isn't as vertex intensive and more pixel shader intensive (unlike Far Cry), they were going to loose.

I wouldnt call a few frames per second with some of the ATI ops turned off "way ahead" just yet. Unless of course your feeling green

 

[rancor]

The lost by 10 or so in dust, "tied" in italy and cobble and lost bt 6/7 in aztec. Thats with all ops on using the NV cards and not all ops on the ATI cards. I would hardled call that crushed....Doom 3, yea they got crushed there

Also something is weird with CS:S as I did not think it was that throttled by the CPU but look at the NV scores for the GT/U going from no aa/af to full aa/af the loose approx 5/7 fps? Heck you can almost get AA/AF for free here




If you have any proof would love to see it. Beside Gabe and others at vavle told us a long time ago thet the VST was coming. Since it was already coming out how is that an ATI Stunt?



I wouldnt call a few frames per second with some of the ATI ops turned off "way ahead" just yet. Unless of course your feeling green

Take a look again , I think you got your numbers mixed up

X-bit labs did the tests with opts on with 4.11 beta drivers, and the cards are pretty much tied. nV isn't using shader replacements sorry ATi lost and is behind in CS without shader replacement.

And this is a crushing defeat for ATi since they spent 6 million on Valve and Source engine. Are you feeling a little Red?

 

[Jbirney]

Take a look again , I think you got your numbers mixed up

No I was looking at 16x12 max IQ settings on the XT/U cards.

X-bit labs did the tests with opts on with 4.11 beta drivers, and the cards are pretty much tied. nV isn't using shader replacements sorry ATi lost and is behind in CS without shader replacement.

IIRC AI is disabled or turned way down my default. Also Doom3 is the only game that I know if that ATI uses Shader Replacement (just like NV does with D3). Also since the current CS benchmark numbers show that ATI "losses" due to more of a hit with AA/AF on, shader replacement is not going to help when you "loss" comes to loose more FPS with AF on.

And this is a crushing defeat for ATi since they spent 6 million on Valve and Source engine. Are you feeling a little Red?

Sorry normally you have been accurate in your posting, however you have taken a pro-NV slant lately? They spent that money also to bunble HL2 with their cards so since I have a free copy of it now, then no I am not feeling red but happy I did not have to spend $50 to play HL2/CS:S

 

[rancor]

I suggest you test your card out if you have an ATi x800 even on low there are shader replacments going on. And not just Doom 3. It happens in 3dmark 05, there is a perfromance difference.

Also ATi's aa and af opts weren't turned off. So that will be equavalent to nV's opts.


The 6 million bucks was for the bundle. Yes, but that would have made sure Vavle didn't make specific nV paths. Which would have resulted in better dx 9 performance on the fx line. Its not that hard to make another path and use nV extensions. God knows they have had enough time....


Just to clarify the AI has nothing to do with the AA and AF opts.

 

[Jbirney]

It happens in 3dmark 05, there is a perfromance difference.

Please show me proof of shader replacement. We already know the reason for the change is the way AF is applied. If you force AF in the CP with AI then you apply AF To ALL TEXTURES weather it needs them or not. If you let applicataion decide, then AF is applied only when needed. FM backs this reason, so really..where is your proof of shader replacements?

The 6 million bucks was for the bundle. Yes, but that would have made sure Vavle didn't make specific nV paths.

Value alread did make NV paths for the FX. Remember their claim of x5 times as much work on the NV paths vrs the DX9 path?

Just to clarify the AI has nothing to do with the AA and AF opts.

And see the other thread where I have proved that is not the case

 

[rancor]

Please show me proof of shader replacement. We already know the reason for the change is the way AF is applied. If you force AF in the CP with AI then you apply AF To ALL TEXTURES weather it needs them or not. If you let applicataion decide, then AF is applied only when needed. FM backs this reason, so really..where is your proof of shader replacements?



Value alread did make NV paths for the FX. Remember their claim of x5 times as much work on the NV paths vrs the DX9 path?




And see the other thread where I have proved that is not the case

Hello its not 5 times the amount of work. Its called using cg instead of using HLSL which is just adding in a cg compiler. And rewriting parts of the HLSL shaders (pretty much replacing extenstions). What Valve stated is fine for a people who don't understand the differences between Cg and HLSL (there is no damn difference)

ya better check the other tread also cause your proof just backed my statement up

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Hello its not 5 times the amount of work. Its called using cg instead of using HLSL which is just adding in a cg compiler. And rewriting parts of the HLSL shaders (pretty much replacing extenstions). What Valve stated is fine for a people who don't understand the differences between Cg and HLSL (there is no damn difference)

And replacing HLSL w/ Cg is not different than running shaders a different way to get the same output?

 

[rancor]

And replacing HLSL w/ Cg is not different than running shaders a different way to get the same output?

Yes it is, but if Valve put it in in the first place it would have performed a bit better on nV cards about 20% there still would be a huge gap no doubt between the fx line and the 9800's but hell it wouldn't have looked like a total massacre.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Yes it is, but if Valve put it in in the first place it would have performed a bit better on nV cards about 20% there still would be a huge gap no doubt between the fx line and the 9800's but hell it wouldn't have looked like a total massacre.

So you accept nV replacing shaders (or complete recompiling) yet run around this and every other forum screaming ATI does shader replacements, go figure.

 

[MFZ]

Here's the deal: As long as nVidia suffers from noticeable IQ problems like shimmering, pulling ahead of ATi by a few fps is basically meaningless. I'd be the first one to switch to an nVidia card if they didn't have these problems. However, this problem has been going on for awhile now and even some 6800 GT users here have commented that they still experience this issue--CSS office was cited as an example. If nVidia can't get this fixed then its a hollow victory because they lose in the IQ battle. I'm surprised sites like [H] haven't looked into this issue more extensively, especially since Brent seems to be aware of it.

 

[rancor]

you can't just replace shaders like that, there is a difference in the two. extension changes like things for ATi or nV work differently with/without Cg. If the shader is wrtten with pure HLSL in a Cg compiler it will work just fine on ATi cards Cg is cross platform. Neither vendor has any specific HLSL extensions (Dx doesn't work that way)

nV its a bit different they do have some through Cg, since its not part of Dx, but to access these the program has to be able to use Cg, HL 2 doesn't. And to do shader replacement to a Cg shader you have to have Cg implimented in the program to begin with. All Valve had to do was impliment Cg in the back end for thier shaders, there is no real extra work.

For the GF 6 line it really doesn't matter, shader performance is just fine through regular HLSL now.

 

[Netrat33]

blaaaahblah blah blah blaaaaah blah BLAH! can't any of you wait until HL2 at least comes out to start bitching about benches?!

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Here's the deal: As long as nVidia suffers from noticeable IQ problems like shimmering, pulling ahead of ATi by a few fps is basically meaningless. I'd be the first one to switch to an nVidia card if they didn't have these problems. However, this problem has been going on for awhile now and even some 6800 GT users here have commented that they still experience this issue--CSS office was cited as an example. If nVidia can't get this fixed then its a hollow victory because they lose in the IQ battle.

These will be discarded by most as either driver problems, or such. Funny thing is the performance will "miraculously" drop with actual released drivers, or when it is fixed.

I'm surprised sites like [H] haven't looked into this issue more extensively, especially since Brent seems to be aware of it.

And lose the $$ from nV? Come on now, no site is willing to take money out of their own pocket.

 

[obs]

These will be discarded by most as either driver problems, or such. Funny thing is the performance will "miraculously" drop with actual released drivers, or when it is fixed.


And lose the $$ from nV? Come on now, no site is willing to take money out of their own pocket.

Just keep believing what you want to believe as that's obvious what you've done so far, oblivious to the actual facts. If you really think HardOCP receives money from NVIDIA why the hell are you even here?

 

[DemonDiablo]

And lose the $$ from nV? Come on now, no site is willing to take money out of their own pocket.

If thats not a low and dirty blow I dont know what is.

thinks somebody is really looking to get a swift kick to the nuts

 

[The Batman]

Just keep believing what you want to believe as that's obvious what you've done so far, oblivious to the actual facts. If you really think HardOCP receives money from NVIDIA why the hell are you even here?

Why to grace us with his sharpasadullknifewit of course. Seriously, if you think [H] is suspect then why do you bother posting 20 times a day?

 

[DemonDiablo]

...BTW Valve data base showed over 1000 XT PE...wanna know how many 6800 UE it showed?

http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html

So while I will agree the XT PE issue was horrible at lest we there are some out there and being used in games like CS:S

But please calling the XT PE a marking stunt when you have the utter joke that is the UE is just well...funny.

Ahhh funny thing is that there werent any x800XT's up there either All I got to say is that its not a big secret that in some results on the steam survey you really have to take the results with a grain of salt (just take a look at the cpu ghz poll).

As for the UE, show me more than 3-5 video card/cpu review that actually use a UE for scoring in comparision to the just about everyother review that uses a XT PE for reviews

Please they were not any more Bias the the offical Doom3 benchmarks Sponsered and controlled by NV. A case of pot, kettle, blacok.

Oh b/c ATI wasnt sleeping with id first? (the like main and only reason I picked up a 9700Pro)

Tell that to the hunders of thousands of people that own the GF FX/9X serries of cards. For them it matters plenty. You have to remember that not every one upgrads like the typical [H]'er does. Running todays benchmarks in the DX9 mode show the same thing that was shown last year.

Thats a pretty true statement. But then again if you practice what you preach then what your saying is that since as so many more people are running last gen's technology that maybe the [H] and all the other hardware/enthusiast websites should stop using nv40 and R420 based technology for their analysis of games such as Doom 3, Half LIfe 2, and Far Cry and start to use the FX/9X based technology (lol actually...they still are using old technology from somebody....) instead (dont even get started on rts games and simulator games)?

 

[^eMpTy^]

Agreed but its more of a worse case stress test.

The stress test was interesting, but I agree that it can't really be used to show actual game performance, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do well in the VST

That is BS. Its anything but simular. I remember when RtCW fisrt came out. The GF4 was kicking the 8500s butts in Q3. Yet in RtCW the 8500 were faster. One game perfromance tells us nothing about another games even if its based off the same engine.

Umm...yeah that's not how I remember it. Benchmarks?

Marketing Stunt? 6800UE Anyone..? You know the one that was "launched" at the same time ATI XT PE? I know you nV biased but please lets get the facts right on markting stunts here: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2044&p=8

I don't see the UE in every benchmark on every vid card review on every website...

BTW Valve data base showed over 1000 XT PE...wanna know how many 6800 UE it showed?

Yeah, I don't think that's very significant...

So while I will agree the XT PE issue was horrible at lest we there are some out there and being used in games like CS:S

My bitch with the whole situation is that ATI basically lied their asses off about the XTPE for the last six months saying that availability was low because of all their oem deals which was a lie...then saying they would be around in October, and what do we get in October? the vanilla XT...the whole thing was a huge lie and nobody seems to mind...

But please calling the XT PE a marking stunt when you have the utter joke that is the UE is just well...funny.

Just because the UE is a marketing stunt doesn't make the XTPE any less of a marketing stunt...nvidia hasn't been lying about the UE for 6 months and didn't just deliver a downclocked version saying "here's what we promised"...

ATi was never ready to ship the XTPE in volume...they only made it to win benchmarks...and it couldn't even do that to a convincing degree...that's pretty sad when you think about it...

Please they were not any more Bias the the offical Doom3 benchmarks Sponsered and controlled by NV. A case of pot, kettle, blacok.

You mean the benchmarks done by the [H] and sponsored by ID SOFTWARE not nvidia? Dude, you're just plain wrong here, get your facts straight.

Tell that to the hunders of thousands of people that own the GF FX/9X serries of cards. For them it matters plenty. You have to remember that not every one upgrads like the typical [H]'er does. Running todays benchmarks in the DX9 mode show the same thing that was shown last year.

I never said it didn't matter to them...I said it didn't matter to the next gen cards...and that holds true...don't change the subject...

I am wondering if AI was turned on or not for this test. FS showed the same results that xbit but they had AI turned off. Thus the ATI scores may change.

Still either card is fine for CS:S

FS didn't have the latest drivers thus no A.I. Xbit on the other hand did and showed a bit higher scores for ATi...

 

[-freon-]

I dont give a rats ass what Nvidia and ATI do behind the scenes to make my game run faster, as long as what I see on the screen matches what the developers intended it to look like. Same look, faster performance = GOOD!
You guys need to go outside and get some fresh air or something. lol

 

[^eMpTy^]

I dont give a rats ass what Nvidia and ATI do behind the scenes to make my game run faster, as long as what I see on the screen matches what the developers intended it to look like. Same look, faster performance = GOOD!
You guys need to go outside and get some fresh air or something. lol

word...as long as it doesn't look crappy I could care less what they are doing...

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Why to grace us with his sharpasadullknifewit of course. Seriously, if you think [H] is suspect then why do you bother posting 20 times a day?

Who said [H] receives money? I read "the likes of [H]" but not [H]

Nice to see you guys jump to conclusions.

 

[obs]

Who said [H] receives money? I read "the likes of [H]" but not [H]

Nice to see you guys jump to conclusions.

It's not jumping to conclusions. It's you not knowing what the hell you are talking about. When someone says why won't sites like [H] check out the glimmering problem that would INCLUDE HardOCP. Then you come by and say it's because nV is paying them all off. What the hell do you want people to think? It never occured to you that maybe they are waiting for a driver revision considering the game has been out for all of 2 days? Hell, its not even in retail stores.

 

[DemonDiablo]

It's not jumping to conclusions. It's you not knowing what the hell you are talking about. When someone says why won't sites like [H] check out the glimmering problem that would INCLUDE HardOCP. Then you come by and say it's because nV is paying them all off. What the hell do you want people to think? It never occured to you that maybe they are waiting for a driver revision considering the game has been out for all of 2 days? Hell, its not even in retail stores.

technically CS: S is still a beta imo