X-fi vs Mobo... not seeing much diff... whats wrong?

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Ashton

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Ok, so I just got a Soundblaster Xfi card (Music edition) I installed it, set it up, etc but I'm honestly not seeing much difference from my on-board sound (Asus M2N-MX SE) Yeah, the crystalizer helped some of my older low-bitrate tracks and the auto-volume is nice, but honestly I'm not feeling it was worth the cost...

What have I missed on the setup? this is supposed to be 100x better than onboard sound...
 
what speakers are you using? what are your source files primarily?
 
I have one crap Aiwa center I pulled form an old sterio 2 Technics 300w and 2 JVC 500watt, all connected to my Technics SA-ax530 amplifier

Sources are MP3, most average quality 96-128kbps, though I do have some 200+kbps samples if that will make a difference (literally only 2 albums at that quality)
 
If you are using Digital out from the soundcard, then the soundcard itself is having very little influence on the sound quality.
Analogue is where you will get the largest sonic differences.
 
Honestly not sure... I dont think my Technics amp can handle a digital signal, this is a stereo from the 80s, after all... I'll check...
 
Creative sound card, 80's amplifier, 96-128kbps MP3's and mismatched old speakers and you are wondering why you don't notice a difference?

I'm not.
 
criccio said:
Creative sound card, 80's amplifier, 96-128kbps MP3's and mismatched old speakers and you are wondering why you don't notice a difference?

I'm not.
Click to expand...

I wont say anyting about the speakers, I know mismached speakers are an issue (though 4/5 of them are high-end so shoudlnt be a problem) but the Amp is so powerful I have to leave volume at 1% accross the board and then I can only use upto 35% power (and I had this same setup with my CD player and the sound was crisp and beautiful, hearing sounds I never heard in the tracks). Also 128kbps MP3 is standard, I've seen very few with the 200+ kbps untill the last couple months.

I will ask about the comment on the SB card. I know years ago (90s) SB was one of the BEST soundcard makers in the country, has this changed? is the Xfi only 1 or 2 steps above onboard sound?
 
When it comes to music, Creative is about the LAST soundcard manufacture you should be looking at.

Should have looked at HT Omega's Claro line or better yet an external DAC of some sort.
 
criccio said:
When it comes to music, Creative is about the LAST soundcard manufacture you should be looking at.
Should have looked at HT Omega's Claro line or better yet an external DAC of some sort.
Click to expand...

I paid $50 for a lot with the Xfi, an Audagy SE, a PNY 128mb video card (Nvidea graphics) and a 256mb Radeon X1300. The Radeon and Xfi are upgrades from my on-board sound and my 128mb radeon 9250 card, so even if the Xfi isnt good I figure for 1/4 of $50 I got a deal, esp if I sell the other cards.

I will keep those in mind for when I sell off the spare cards.

Is there a Software "Crystalizer" I can use in place of the Xfi's hardware crystalizer to clarify low-bitrate audio? This desktop is a 2.66ghz dual-core 64-bit with 3gb ram, so I figure running a software crystalizer should be feasable and still let me use the PC for other tasks (right?)

That's really the only feature I really love about the card... though volume limiter is nice...
 
there's nothing wrong with the x-fi. if the technics can take digital, get a mono 1/8" to rca adapter from radio shack. Then you have a coax digital connection to send to the receiver. See if it makes a difference. The amp is good. (I've always had Technics growing up) but the speakers are questionable since you didn't give specifics.
 
Using any kind of modification to the sound is generally a bad thing. You're audio shouldn't be that low of a bitrate to begin with. I suggest re-ripping(downloading) it.
 
Ashton said:
I paid $50 for a lot with the Xfi, an Audagy SE, a PNY 128mb video card (Nvidea graphics) and a 256mb Radeon X1300. The Radeon and Xfi are upgrades from my on-board sound and my 128mb radeon 9250 card, so even if the Xfi isnt good I figure for 1/4 of $50 I got a deal, esp if I sell the other cards.

I will keep those in mind for when I sell off the spare cards.

Is there a Software "Crystalizer" I can use in place of the Xfi's hardware crystalizer to clarify low-bitrate audio? This desktop is a 2.66ghz dual-core 64-bit with 3gb ram, so I figure running a software crystalizer should be feasable and still let me use the PC for other tasks (right?)

That's really the only feature I really love about the card... though volume limiter is nice...
Click to expand...

the crystalizer adds a nice dynamic to the sound
your setup should be fine, if you're using analog you should definitely hear a difference

generally onboard will sound dull and flat with muffled highs

if you really can't hear a difference, it's possible your mp3s are really badly ripped, or you just dont have picky ears =)
 
The Crystalizer enhances the leading edges of new sounds, thereby adding impact. It appears to increase some high frequency amplitudes.
It also increases some deep bass tones which can be helpful for some music types if bass is short.

When my hifi wasnt set up very well, I appreciated the Crystalizer because it added a bit of energy to an otherwise lacklustre sound.
After setting my kit up properly, the extended treble is too shrill,
the extended bass frequencies drown the other bass and the overall effect reduced the clarity of midrange (by drowning it out a bit).
So it depends on the quality of your hifi, its own independent harmonic/frequency response and your own preferences whether the Crystalizer will gel with you/your system.
Try it and see :)

Its best to leave it off for say a week, then try it on for a week.
Rinse and repeat.
Its easy to be fooled by initial impressions, but ultimately you may find one method less engaging or more fatiguing depending on your focus.
 
@ magnetik: I wish I coudl tell you mroe about the speakers, all I know is the two technic speakers came wiht the sterio, and the otehr two were my father's that cost him around $200 each back in the 70s...

I will check the reciever, it seems like it only takes RCA analog connections but I might be wrong.

@ ciciro: Some I can, much of it I cant. a lot of these songs are rare rips from Dr Demento that I've never found for flat-out download or on any CD other than the Dr's compilations, which are msotly out of print.

@ digital-Viper-X: PArt of it is the amp drowns a lot of sound out. 1% on all volumes on the PC and only 20% of the amp usually. Signal is just too strong and then there's interference in the system soemwhere, I hear quiet white noise every time I turn on the system with no inputs.

@ Nenu: some of the files it makes a dramatic difference in, other's it's not so much. Depends on where the shortfall is on the track. I really wish I had a way to import my .RA files into Audacity to fix the overwhelming Bass in them!
 
Ashton said:
@ digital-Viper-X: PArt of it is the amp drowns a lot of sound out. 1% on all volumes on the PC and only 20% of the amp usually. Signal is just too strong and then there's interference in the system soemwhere, I hear quiet white noise every time I turn on the system with no inputs.
!
Click to expand...


that doesn't sound right, I've used a good technics receiver before with a pc, without that problem, even now I'm using a pioneer receiver

things to consider

are you using the EQ? If so turn down the gain there, also go to you're creative control panel, speakers, advanced and make sure those sliders are not higher then 60%
then put your source(mp3 at like 50-60%) and your pc at the same.

if it still sounds distorted then it's possible your receiver or sound card are pooched.
 
Have you tried any non shity source of signal like putting audio cd into computer or some loseless sound formats ?
 
ouch! The crystalizer is *painful* with true archive-quality sound 320kbps. shrill and tinny...

I dont think I was being clear enough about the "distortion" that involves amplifying the wrong side of a low-quality track (among other things you end up amplifying distortion and static) when I used the PC's amp and lowered the power on the technics amp I got static (to the point the "welcome" sound for windows was nothing but a blast of static)

Though I still have the faint white-noise whenever its powered on, I think it has to do with the proximity of the speakers to the amp (which is literally sitting atop one of the 500watt speakers and next to one of the others, as well as under a printer...)

When I use one of my 320kbps, I can play with the volume any way I want, I cant FIND any noise in the track, even on the worst amp volume combinations. But this is only like 12 tracks...
 
The differences between onboard and discreet are small but they are still there. This isnt like 5-10 years ago when oboard was just plain ugly. That said though...


128kb is not standard for MP3's! that is just what manufacturers like to market for to show there devices hold craploads of shitty encoded MP3's. If your not listening to Mp3's with at least 192kb and properly ripped by someone who actually knows how then take your card and drop a sledge hammer on it a few times... seriously your just wasting electricity useing it in your computer.
 
Bun-Bun said:
The differences between onboard and discreet are small but they are still there. This isnt like 5-10 years ago when oboard was just plain ugly. That said though...


128kb is not standard for MP3's! that is just what manufacturers like to market for to show there devices hold craploads of shitty encoded MP3's. If your not listening to Mp3's with at least 192kb and properly ripped by someone who actually knows how then take your card and drop a sledge hammer on it a few times... seriously your just wasting electricity useing it in your computer.
Click to expand...

I didn't want to say that, but since you did... :D

I have a ~10,000 song library, all are at the very least 192kbps LAME MP3's. Most are 320 CBR.

Originally it was entirely FLAC but that was just to damn big, I cut in in half with MP3.
 
Man...there's always such a "culture shock" whenever I post at Hydrogenaudio for a while and then come here. I keep wanting to reply "TOS #8" to every silly post and remembering that I can't do that :)

criccio said:
When it comes to music, Creative is about the LAST soundcard manufacture you should be looking at.
Click to expand...
Depends on personal preference. Some people prefer a very neutral and uncolored output, which is more or less exactly what Creative cards tend to deliver over other cards like the Xonar.

Nenu said:
The Crystalizer enhances the leading edges of new sounds, thereby adding impact.
Click to expand...
As far as I'm aware, the Crystalizer is basically an equalizer with a smiley face configuration. I don't believe it does anything else, though boosting the high frequencies does tend to create a "transient focus" like what you're describing.

Creative would have us believe that the Crystalizer is this complex and intelligent algorithm when, in reality, as far as anyone can discern, it's an equalizer preset :p

Bun-Bun said:
If your not listening to Mp3's with at least 192kb and properly ripped by someone who actually knows how then take your card and drop a sledge hammer on it a few times... seriously your just wasting electricity useing it in your computer.
Click to expand...
Depends on the files and the encoder. Fraunhaufer's encoder, which is typically what's used when LAME isn't used, has improved considerably in both the CBR and VBR profiles in the past few years. Transparency is certainly achievable in some cases at or below 128kbps -- be that CBR or VBR, believe it or not.

On the OP's system, I doubt any major differences could be discerned if any differences could be discerned at all. Obviously if we're talking about Shine-encoded MP3s, then that's an entirely different story.
 
phide said:
Depends on personal preference. Some people prefer a very neutral and uncolored output, which is more or less exactly what Creative cards tend to deliver over other cards like the Xonar.
Click to expand...


Neutral and uncolored output? You're kidding right?

And I don't use any internal soundcard, frankly they are all crappy. Unless you go with something in the professional sector.

I'll stick to my Devilsound DAC...
 
phide said:
Man...there's always such a "culture shock" whenever I post at Hydrogenaudio for a while and then come here. I keep wanting to reply "TOS #8" to every silly post and remembering that I can't do that :)

As far as I'm aware, the Crystalizer is basically an equalizer with a smiley face configuration. I don't believe it does anything else, though boosting the high frequencies does tend to create a "transient focus" like what you're describing.

Creative would have us believe that the Crystalizer is this complex and intelligent algorithm when, in reality, as far as anyone can discern, it's an equalizer preset :p
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you
previously on my Creative SCs I've had to boost the treble a bit in the equalizer, but with the XFI I Just use the crystalizer without adding anything in the EQ :)
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
I have to agree with you
previously on my Creative SCs I've had to boost the treble a bit in the equalizer, but with the XFI I Just use the crystalizer without adding anything in the EQ :)
Click to expand...

sigh... You shouldn't be using anything to mess with the sound.
 
criccio said:
sigh... You shouldn't be using anything to mess with the sound.
Click to expand...

why? I like the sound better with it on then with it off
=)

not really sure what planet you live on where music is all recorded equally perfect with balanced levels and everyone enjoys the same setup :p
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
why? I like the sound better with it on then with it off
=)
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But this probably has to do with the rest of the hardware in you're setup not being able to properly reproduce the music as it was originally intended, therefore needing a software manipulation to sound good.
 
iTunes sells shit loads of crappy 128kb/s MP3s. People have to be crazy to pay anything for 128kb/s MP3s.

Audio is very subjective. ABX testing has shown that people usually can't tell a high end amp from a run of the mill one, it's the same with soundcards. The biggest benefit of a discrete soundcard is to hopefully give you better isolation from the noisy mb. The other benefit used to be less cpu resources used and that was the main benefit of the X-Fi but there is little in that anymore if you are using Vista. With multi core CPUs you can forget about buying a soundcard to lessen cpu resources. If you wanted the soundcard for music you should have gone with an external soundcard as that has far better isolation from the PC than an internal soundcard.
 
criccio said:
Fair enough. But this probably has to do with the rest of the hardware in you're setup not being able to properly reproduce the music as it was originally intended, therefore needing a software manipulation to sound good.
Click to expand...
Define "as it was originally intended".

And, yes, I am trying to pick a fight ;)

Klob said:
iTunes sells shit loads of crappy 128kb/s MP3s. People have to be crazy to pay anything for 128kb/s MP3s.
Click to expand...
iTunes has never sold MP3s, only AAC in MP4 containers. I wouldn't call 128kbps CBR or ABR LC-AAC "crappy" myself, but it's obviously not the best thing out there either. Apple's AAC encoder is actually pretty competent.

Most of the music on iTunes is actually 256kbps ABR LC-AAC these days, of course.
 
phide said:
Define "as it was originally intended".

And, yes, I am trying to pick a fight ;)
Click to expand...

As close to what the artists was hearing on the monitors in the studio.. They definitely weren't using Creative branded gaming soundcards, 128kbps and "crystalizers". :D

I really don't want to fight...
 
criccio said:
sigh... You shouldn't be using anything to mess with the sound.
Click to expand...

I get it now. You're an Audiophile aren't you? My father knew a guy that was, has all his cabled measued and cut exactly to spec, had to be a certain length exactly to reduce noise and had $4000+ speakers, etc

The crystalizer is just an EQ setting? damn I feel gyped! *facepalm*

Honestly, if anyone's gonna buy it, I think I'm gonna try and sell the X-fi, it's not making enough difference for me to notice... I figure I can get at least $20 for it, right?
 
Ashton said:
I get it now. You're an Audiophile aren't you? My father knew a guy that was, has all his cabled measued and cut exactly to spec, had to be a certain length exactly to reduce noise and had $4000+ speakers, etc
Click to expand...

I use completely normal monoprice cable and have no idea what length it should be, nor do I care. My speakers are $200 and my DAC was $200. Couple that with a quality source files and you get clean audio.
 
Btw, criccio... how IS the Devilsound DAC? Didn't you post about it in Head-Fi? Gonna hunt for that thread now...

And a couple things to add:

1) iTunes store is terrible, but it is also terribly accessible and terribly omnipresent. Almost to the point of Bose.

2) You don't have to be an audiophile to appreciate better sound unless youre a deaf or tone deaf.

3) If you HAVE to EQ to enjoy your music, then clearly, either your audio gear is crapping out on you or your music choices are. If you listened to music you can enjoy with neutral sound, then you are really listening to music you actually like. If you must EQ, then you are clearly listening to music that needs tweaking... which means something or someone is screwing up. That's like saying you need to add a tinted window on the frame of an art piece you have in your house because you like it better like that. Well then WHY DID YOU BUY THE ART PIECE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?! Buy something from an artist who knew what he was doing OR get better lighting/frame!
 
Alai said:
Btw, criccio... how IS the Devilsound DAC? Didn't you post about it in Head-Fi? Gonna hunt for that thread now...
Click to expand...

Absolutely blown away by it considering how small it is, not to mention its form factor. Its great when I want to just grab it off my main rig and use with my laptop if I go somewhere. I have used a couple ~$150 to $200 DAC's in the past and this is by far my favorite. My last one was the FubarII which I loved aswell.

Wasn't me though, I don't post over there. I stay here trying to fight to good fight. Keeping people away from anything that says Logitech/Createive or Klipsch (multimedia line).

:D
 
phide said:
iTunes has never sold MP3s, only AAC in MP4 containers. I wouldn't call 128kbps CBR or ABR LC-AAC "crappy" myself, but it's obviously not the best thing out there either. Apple's AAC encoder is actually pretty competent.

Most of the music on iTunes is actually 256kbps ABR LC-AAC these days, of course.
Click to expand...

When iTunes first started up all the music was 128kb/s. They only offer higher bit rate now at a higher cost because people complained. OK, they use proprietary AAC which is another annoyance of theirs, along with their MP3 players that have a proprietary port instead of just using USB like everyone else. People have to be fools to buy their music from them and their non-standard MP3 players. I will never pay for MP3s because they are not the same quality as the original CD. I would pay for a lossless download format but never MP3.
 
Ashton said:
The crystalizer is just an EQ setting? damn I feel gyped! *facepalm*
Click to expand...

It is not just an Equalizer, it does more than that and I did read a tech article on it long ago but can't remember the details now. I would consider it more of a dynamic range expander, those were probably before your time. Used to be able to buy hardware dynamic range expander made by DBX but they were for LP and are not needed with CD. Most people don't like how Crystallizer makes their MP3s sound so turn it off. If you like it then leave it on and don't care what other people say.

Cutting speaker cable to equal lengths is recommended because it affects the timing of the signal to the speaker.
 
No there's something about they need to be Xfeet (lets just say 8) and if you cut them, it must be to 4 feet, if you cut them to 6 it will cause some kind of feedback or distortion... very far-left audiophile stuff that nobody in my family understands the concern over...

@ Cricciro: MY whole family is against Logitec, despite owning a mouse by them, I'm not buying any of their products, they all seem sub-par quality.

To be fair, I dont use equalizers unless the system or music requires it, such as my poorly-encoded old Dr Demento tracks (if anyone wants to hear what I'm talking about let me know and I'll upload a clip, they're horribly encoded)

and I *think* I've heard the term Dynamic Range Extender once... once... but I sure as hell had no clue what it was! lol. Yes, before my time.

Also I agree, after hearing 320kbps audio my old MP3s, WMAs, and RAs at 128, 96, or even lower, are S---! Sadly untill I learn to remaster them myself, there's not much I can do with them since the original sources for most are unavailable...
 
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