Wireless router range problem

sgtrobo

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Mar 11, 2013
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Ok, so the basics here.

Laptop: IdeaPad Y580 i7-3610QM
--OS: Win7Pro-64, Build 7601
--Internal WiFi adapter: Intel Centrino Wireless-N 2200 BGN 2x2 HMC WiFi/Bluetooth Adapter
--External WiFi adapter: USB TP-Link TL-WN722N USB Wireless Adapter

Router: D-Link DIR-825
--Firmware Version: 1.01, 2008/09/10
--Hardware Version: A1

Cliff's - I'm upstairs and get a very inconsistent signal to my wireless router downstairs. Does my router need updated? Is there an external USB wireless adapter that will help? Should I use some type of antenna add-on? Am I screwed?

The issue is that I need is to get a stable and consistent wireless connection inside my house. It's fairly large, but more importantly, it's new(er) so the insulation is very thick, and it seems to be killing my router's range.

When I connect to the router itself, it shows both the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz as connected, but nothing connects to the 5 GHz, presumably because the signal is too weak through all these darn walls. It shows my laptop wavering anywhere from a rate of 100+ Mbps down to 13 Mbps, as I watch it, with either of the network adapters. I have my cell phone connected to the wireless next to me and it also shows the same thing (very inconsistent connection rates). I get frequent internet "disconnects", yet I show full 5 bars in my wireless laptop connection. Sometimes, I have to completely reboot the DIR-825 to get an internet connection back. Other times, the sucker just signs along, and I get fantastic internet performance, both in downloads (over 1+ MB/S download speeds) and in internet webpage browsing (click and bam, it's loaded). As an example, I just downloaded a 6 MB MS Silverlight file in about 2-3 seconds.

I've read over quite a bit of the FAQs and looked at hardware and such, but it's tough for me to separate the wheat from the chaff (or the reality from the sales pitch). I know, RTFM. I did. I just don't know WTF TFM actually is saying to me. :p

So I guess my questions:

1) Is there a router out there that will provide a consistent increase in the range within a house with heavily insulated walls? I'm not worried about "features" per se, as I wouldn't know what to do with them anyway, to be honest. I just need range. I notice my DIR-825 gets a 4-stars rating on speedguide, but that 2 of the higher rated are the Asus RT-N66U and the Netgear R6300. The Netgear has the ac1750 (or whatever the hell it is), and the Asus has the N900 (again, whatever the heck that is). I mean, I "know" it is maximum data transfer rate and ac is a standard like a, g, n, and such, but I assume those are under ideal conditions and I probably don't have ideal conditions. Are they rated higher due to features, or is there really a router out there that has a seriously good wireless range?

2) Are there some type of "high gain antennas" that I can add to my DIR-825 to make the output stronger? I read about them, but honestly have no clue what I'm looking for, nor how to tell if they are compatible with my hardware. I found this page here but looking at the options made my head spin and I have no idea if one of those will shoot my eye out or not (I know, it's a few months late for a Christmas joke)

3) I cannot change the internal card on my laptop. Long story, apparently Lenovo made an absolute barnbuster of a laptop in the IdeaPad that I have, but decided to skimp on the internal wireless adapter and they made it permanent and non-upgradeable (hence the USB external). Would a "really good" USB external wireless adapter help? If so, which one? Again, I suck and cannot figure out what is good and what will be a waste of money. Or...is there a 'high gain antennae" that I can add to the USB external adapter as well? I kinda like it, as the USB external connects independently of the internal WiFi, and when they are both working together, there is a noticeable increase in download speed and web browsing speed. I don't know if that is common or not. I'm almost tempted to get a USB 4-port, plug it into the USB port on my computer, and then grab another 3 of these little guys and see if they can all piggyback off each other and be additive in their speeds. Tee hee. Probably not though.

4) Access points - I assume this is essentially just a router wired to another router, and it acts like a "range extender", except...it's wired. Problem with this is that I'm upstairs a ways, in another room entirely, and it is impractical for me to wire a wireless extender or an access point or whatever, so although I assume this would be the ideal solution, it seems to be a practical impossibility without hiring somebody to dig up the flooring and such in my house to insert some Cat-5 cable.


Anyway, a little assistance in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Also, as a side note - the "variations" in speed and connectivity occur regardless of what is going on. i.e. it's not like my wife starts up the microwave and all of a sudden my wireless craps out. I'll be alone, phone turned off, nothing running, and experience a massive dropoff in speed out of nowhere, and then sometimes I'll get a massive increase in speed (or it'll just drop connection entirely, forcing a router reboot).

Halp! Puhleez!!!
 
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Any regular router with 5Ghz and 2.4Ghz band will give you about the same signal strength and range. People are very brand oriented these days and don't realize that in terms of routers they all basically the same, its either Broadcom or Ralink chipset that handles the WiFi portion, difference is in the firmware which can also be replaced in case of most Ralink chipsets. Range extenders such as ASUS EA-N66 will give you a better signal strength but since the signal gets processed and repeated speed will drop due to error control. You could invest in AC standard routers such as ASUS RT-AC66U are really promising. I tested the AC66U with an AC standard card and got stable 80MB/s via wireless, try getting that off 802.11N :) also the range is much better. The problem might be the price and low number of AC adapter cards on the market now.
 
Patrick, glad I could help. No idea how I did that, but hey, like I said, glad I could help. Now if only I could get some help! :p

nocpan,
so am i correct my interpretation of you're saying is that "I'm screwed"? i.e. updating my router won't help, adding antennae won't help, and since I don't have an AC Adapter card, getting an AC router won't help either?

how depressing.
 


ah very interesting!

So a question to ask. Considering the DIR-825 is a wireless N device, would either of these items be as useful, if not moreso:

http://www.amazon.com/High-Gain-Long-Rang-Alfa-9dBi-Mount/dp/B0038Q4AIG/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/Alfa-AWUS036H-Wireless-Long-Rang-Panel/dp/B003YI4HRM/ref=pd_cp_pc_1


and would it also be useful to add one of these (12 dBi):

http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Ante...ectional+Antenna+with+RP-SMA+(male)+connector

thanks a ton. I feel like I might not have to shell out the $$$ for the super high end WiFi adapters, such as the Asus RT-N66U
 
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Good grief.....people


Why is it on this forum, that I feel like the Dalai Lama of Wifi......:rolleyes:

OP... I am going to ask you to trust me and keep your money in your pocket until you have collected enough data to know what the issue is.

Please download and load up inSSIDer on your laptop. Post a screen shot of all three tabs/pages and indicate which wireless network is yours. One of those screenshots should include a graph of your connection rate over time.


On your router set your channel width set to 20Mhz, and change your wireless radio to wireless N only.


There are plenty of things that can cause crazy performance issues with your wireless. Post the screen shots and lets examine the results.

There's also a possibility that the wireless is fine and some other part of the router is going crazy. It also could be farther up the chain at the modem. So lets start by collecting facts and logically examining the issue.

____________________________________________________________________

The insulation is only going to cause an issue if it is aluminum coated. Plaster walls with metal lattuce, brick or stucco also are dense enough to cause issues. 5Ghz has a harder time penetrating walls and ceilings. Also keep in mind that trying to transmit through a wall at a 45 degree angle doubles the thickness of the wall from the wireless devices point of view.


A high DB antenna will flatten the radiation pattern from the router so that you have significantly less wireless signal strength upstairs....on the other hand that same change will give you even better signal strength readings downstairs.


If you post the screen shots I 'll help you through this.
 
ok

downloading inSSIDer now

I can tell you now though, that I get no 5.0 GHz upstairs, only 2.4, so that means setting the router to N only is a bad juju right?

EDIT - downloaded, running the app now. The 5 GHz Channel tab is blank, so I included the other 2 tabs. I'm the green line, the other line is my Mom's wireless, which is on the far side of the house


ceaIMct.jpg

wrzECVj.jpg
 
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ok, so i had inSSIDer running thankfully as my internet crapped out on me. Meaning "Sending request" was the only message I got when I tried to click a link in Chrome, and I got the "This Webpage is not available" message,

Error 118 (net::ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT): The operation timed out

in fact, in order to send this message, I had to go reboot my router. Ironically enough, inSSIDer was running the whole time, and I saw almost no difference in the Time Graph tab nor the 2.4 GHz Channels tab
 
So I already see a couple of issues,

Your router is in 40Mhz mode and your signal is overlapping other channels that are in use. (This is very bad when using 40Mhz channel width mode)
Your radio is set on a partly overlapping channel, which will cause some interference .

Corrective actions needed taken:

  • Manually set your wireless radio to either channel 6 (good) or channel 11 (better)
  • Change your channel width to 20Mhz. (you need to make sure your system is working correctly and stable at 20Mhz channel width before attempting to get 40Mhz mode to work without issue)


Explanation of some of the things you are seeing:
Neither the --Internal WiFi adapter: Intel Centrino Wireless-N 2200 or your --External WiFi adapter: USB TP-Link TL-WN722N are capable of connecting at 5Ghz.

Wireless N can use 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz if the device supports it. Neither of your wireless adapters support 5Ghz. So you will never see a 5Ghz signal with either of them.

Also your router the DIR-825 has dual band, meaning it can output on either 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz, but not both at the same time. Your router is not equipped with two independent radios inside (some more expensive models do) So if you choose to use both expect your performance to drop up to 60% when you do use both simultaneously.

Corrective actions I suggest:
Given the wireless clients you have can not use 5Ghz, I strongly recommend changing the wireless settings in your router to use Wireless N 2.4Ghz mode only.


A perfectly connected 2.4Ghz wireless N connection with a connection rate of 144Mbps is capable of downloading at near 10MB/s over your local network.

NOTE: Just because your wireless can download at 10MB/s does not mean that your internet speed can. Unless you have a 100Mbps internet connection you're not going to see anything near 10MB/s downloads from the web.
 
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Honestly other than the two recommendations I have given, I do not see any other real reason your wireless should be acting the way you describe.

If you make the changes/corrections I suggested you should be good to go as far as the wireless end is concerned.

Please repost the same graphs again after you have made the recommended changes.

If you still see issues after the changes your problem is most likely not the wireless.

Probably DNS, Gateway connectivity or modem related issues.
 
So I already see a couple of issues,

Your router is in 40Mhz mode and your signal is overlapping other channels that are in use. (This is very bad when using 40Mhz channel width mode)

ok, how in heaven's name do you see that? I don't even know what that is. :p I assume I can change that in the 192.168.etc settings?



Your radio is set on a partly overlapping channel, which will cause some interference .

again, how can you see this?

Corrective actions needed taken:

  • Manually set your wireless radio to either channel 6 (good) or channel 11 (better) on the 2nd graph, are the #s on the bottom the channels? Also, if I set the router to channel 11, will that require any changes be made to my clients, i.e. my wife's cell phone, my kids' laptops, etc?
  • Change your channel width to 20Mhz. (you need to make sure your system is working correctly and stable at 20Mhz channel width before attempting to get 40Mhz mode to work without issue) ok, I'll do that but I gotta do that when I get home, at work now.


Explanation of some of the things you are seeing:
Neither the --Internal WiFi adapter: Intel Centrino Wireless-N 2200 or your --External WiFi adapter: USB TP-Link TL-WN722N are capable of connecting at 5Ghz. that's frustrating because the external one says it's an "N" type adapter, I thought that meant "dual band/wireless N"?

Wireless N can use 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz if the device supports it. Neither of your wireless adapters support 5Ghz. So you will never see a 5Ghz signal with either of them. oh well that stinks. So I should probably get an adapter that can do 5.0 GHz?

Also your router the DIR-825 has dual band, meaning it can output on either 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz, but not both at the same time. Your router is not equipped with two independent radios inside (some more expensive models do) So if you choose to use both expect your performance to drop up to 60% when you do use both simultaneously. WHOA WHOA WHOA....ok, so I know my wife's laptop, which is downstairs, and my daughter's laptop, also downstairs, pull in the 5 GHz band...so by doing so, they are causing my connection upstairs to get boinked???

Corrective actions I suggest:
Given the wireless clients you have can not use 5Ghz, I strongly recommend changing the wireless settings in your router to use Wireless N 2.4Ghz mode only.


A perfectly connected 2.4Ghz wireless N connection with a connection rate of 144Mbps is capable of downloading at near 10MB/s over your local network.

NOTE: Just because your wireless can download at 10MB/s does not mean that your internet speed can. Unless you have a 100Mbps internet connection you're not going to see anything near 10MB/s downloads from the web.


holy moses, thanks a ton. this is outstanding info.
 
holy moses, thanks a ton. this is outstanding info.

No Problem. I'm glad to help.

"ok, how in heaven's name do you see that? I don't even know what that is. :p I assume I can change that in the 192.168.etc settings?"

Yes.

"again, how can you see this?"

Look at the second graph where there is overlap between the green and blue lines.

" on the 2nd graph, are the #s on the bottom the channels? Also, if I set the router to channel 11, will that require any changes be made to my clients, i.e. my wife's cell phone, my kids' laptops, etc?"

No changes are required on the client side.

" ok, I'll do that but I gotta do that when I get home, at work now."

D-link has instructions on how to do this. Look up your router on their website and click on the FAQ for your router.

"that's frustrating because the external one says it's an "N" type adapter, I thought that meant "dual band/wireless N"?"

Wireless N supports two possible frequencies, 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz but it does not require both to be present to be called Wireless N.

"oh well that stinks. So I should probably get an adapter that can do 5.0 GHz?"

Based on what you are trying to do AND the router you currently have I wouldn't even bother.

"WHOA WHOA WHOA....ok, so I know my wife's laptop, which is downstairs, and my daughter's laptop, also downstairs, pull in the 5 GHz band...so by doing so, they are causing my connection upstairs to get boinked???"

Doubtful...but possible. From the readings seen in inSSIDer the 2.4Ghz spectrum is open from channel 6 and higher at your location. You may want to consider moving everyone to 2.4Ghz, but I wouldn't do this until you have ruled out the obvious issues.


IF you had a router with dual band and dual radio your current configuration (some devices on 5Ghz) would be a better one.

Also keep in mind that wireless is a shared spectrum medium. All the bandwidth is shared between all the devices in use. So if you have two devices talking at the same time your usable speed is cut in half when both devices are downloading/uploading. Idle devices have a very minor impact on your overall speed.


If you feel you need/want more performance I would suggest you look at something like the Asus RT-N66U which has both dual radios and dual band. Technically you would be able to support twice the number of wireless devices as your current DIR-825 and have a potential of twice the available wireless bandwidth.

802.11ac is not intended for the purpose that most people think. Most people think its primary purpose is to give faster connection speeds ( it's not) and although it can be configured to offer more potential speed, speed is not 802.11ac's primary purpose by design. (802.11ac primary purpose is power savings for supported mobile wireless devices)

802.11ad which should be available in 2016 is designed for more speed and bandwidth.
 
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holy moses, thanks a ton. this is outstanding info.

Most of the stuff I suggested you change is on this page: http://www.dlink.com/us/en/support/...hange-the-802-11-mode-on-my-dir-series-router

In the 2.4Ghz page:

802.11 Mode: Wireless N only
Enable Auto Channel Scan: Uncheck
Wireless Channel: 6 or 11
Transmission rate: Best or Auto
Channel Width: 20Mhz
Visibility: Visible


Make sure this is enabled (both check boxes): http://www.dlink.com/us/en/support/...-configure-global-qos-on-my-dir-series-router
 
I didn't mention it earlier but it only takes 1 connected wireless G device to slow down everyone to wireless G speeds. Which is another reason I suggested making certain your wireless is configured for Wireless N only.
 
I didn't mention it earlier but it only takes 1 connected wireless G device to slow down everyone to wireless G speeds. Which is another reason I suggested making certain your wireless is configured for Wireless N only.

The asus router removes that problem though, right?
 
"The asus router removes that problem though, right?"

No. The ASUS router will allow you to use 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at the same time without a performance penalty.


I do not know of any reasonably priced wireless access point device that offers Wireless N and supports Wireless G at the same time without this issue.

If someone really wants a retain wireless G access and maintain a high performance Wireless N network they will need a second access point and an unobstructed 2.4Ghz channel. Few people outside of this forum and other similar forums :p are nerotic enough to do that.
 
"The asus router removes that problem though, right?"

No. The ASUS router will allow you to use 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at the same time without a performance penalty.

I do not know of any reasonably priced wireless access point device that offers Wireless N and supports Wireless G at the same time without this issue.

If someone really wants a retain wireless G access and maintain a high performance Wireless N network they will need a second access point and an unobstructed 2.4Ghz channel. Few people outside of this forum and other similar forums :p are nerotic enough to do that.

oh wow. so if I understand, it is best to "pick" either wireless G or wireless N, and disable the other one at the router?

So if all of my clients support wireless N, I should disable wireless G, but if even one of them requires wireless G, I should disable wireless N (until I can update that one)?
 
oh wow. so if I understand, it is best to "pick" either wireless G or wireless N, and disable the other one at the router?

So if all of my clients support wireless N, I should disable wireless G, but if even one of them requires wireless G, I should disable wireless N (until I can update that one)?

Nope, let me clarify.

If all your clients support wireless N, you should disable wireless G, if you want to ensure that you always maintain wireless N speeds.

If you have wireless G clients, you can use wireless N +G compatibility mode. But you need to understand that all clients may be forced to degrade their performance to wireless G speeds.

Wireless N 144Mbps WPA2 = 10MB/s (Best possible speed)
Wireless G 54Mbps WPA = 2.6MB/s (Best possible speed)

Just keep in mind that the speeds listed above is shared between ALL the active clients. So if you have 5 users actively using the wireless and you are on wireless G your going to see 50KB/s per client max. In reality its going to be much, much slower. Painfully slower. Like 15KB/s slow. Without going into it all, its partly due to wireless protocol being half duplex and having to resend all data collisions caused by multiple clients on a single radio. There are many factors that are involved with the final perceived performance seen on the client side.




On wireless N you'll notice the slow down, but it won't be painfully slow.
 
ok

so if all clients support N, then disable G entirely

N supports both 2.4 and 5 GHz, the 2.4 goes through walls easier, 5 is faster and less "crowded". N is good, if possible.

If 1 client is NOT compatible with N, then I have to leave both G and N enabled, and the client that has to use G, will use it, and the ones that normally use N will probably suffer a performance degradation to the point of annoyance

is this a "only during performance" type of degradation? i.e. if I have 5 clients, and we'll call "Dorko" the one that uses G while the others can use N

Dorko connects to G, does everybody suffer the degraded performance, or only when Dorko is downloading and transferring?
 
ok

so if all clients support N, then disable G entirely

N supports both 2.4 and 5 GHz, the 2.4 goes through walls easier, 5 is faster and less "crowded". N is good, if possible.

If 1 client is NOT compatible with N, then I have to leave both G and N enabled, and the client that has to use G, will use it, and the ones that normally use N will probably suffer a performance degradation to the point of annoyance

is this a "only during performance" type of degradation? i.e. if I have 5 clients, and we'll call "Dorko" the one that uses G while the others can use N

Dorko connects to G, does everybody suffer the degraded performance, or only when Dorko is downloading and transferring?

Yes

Yes 2.4Ghz has more penetrating power through walls. 5Ghz is not faster, just less crowded and typically has less interference issues, it also has more available/usable channels.

Yes

Anytime Dorko Connects everyone else will suffer performance issues, that includes when dorko's device is idle.
 
I'm pretty sure that combining gives a minor performance hit, at least my wlan shows that (300Mbit). What you should do is to upgrade the firmware apart from the suggestions made by Mackintire, newer radio firmware/drivers can do wonders really.

http://www.dlink.com/us/en/support/...e-n-dual-band-gigabit-router?revision=us_reva

..and while you most likely wont get any better range using a new router newer radios are much less buggy and more efficient although it wont matter much if your client devices aren't the same generation. FWIW, my Intel 6205 hates 40Mhz on 2.4Ghz with passion, it works good for a while then starts to switch speeds constantly. Non of my other devices does it so I guess its something with that card in perticular.

//Danne
 
oh yeah, last dumb question for a bit

I obviously want to get some 5.0 GHz adapters for the laptops downstairs to leave me alone with my 2.4 GHz band. How do I know what the heck to look for at, say, amazon

like is this one good:

http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Range...ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1363128947&sr=1-2

it reads "dual band" so I assume that means 2.4 and 5GHz or is that just G and N?

also, some of the suckers have the big ole antennae stickin' out, and some don't. Necessary, or overkill?
 
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I'm pretty sure that combining gives a minor performance hit, at least my wlan shows that (300Mbit). What you should do is to upgrade the firmware apart from the suggestions made by Mackintire, newer radio firmware/drivers can do wonders really.

http://www.dlink.com/us/en/support/...e-n-dual-band-gigabit-router?revision=us_reva

..and while you most likely wont get any better range using a new router newer radios are much less buggy and more efficient although it wont matter much if your client devices aren't the same generation. FWIW, my Intel 6205 hates 40Mhz on 2.4Ghz with passion, it works good for a while then starts to switch speeds constantly. Non of my other devices does it so I guess its something with that card in perticular.

//Danne


ok. no idea how to tell. :(
 
Unless you know the internals of the router...


"simultaneous dual band" means "it has two radios"

"dual band" means it might not.

Those usb adapters are terrible with very few exceptionst. A having a huge honking antenna on a laptop is impractical for those of us who use a laptop as a laptop.

Personally I 'd actually change out the wireless card in the laptop. They re inexpensive and arn't that hard to change out. The Intel® Centrino® Advanced-N 6205 is a direct swap. I could probably swap it out of that lenovo in 3 minutes. Maybe take another couple of minutes to download and install the Intel proset drivers.

http://www.amazon.com/Centrino®-Adv...TF8&qid=1363142194&sr=1-3&keywords=6205+intel


Usually manufactures make a device better with each firmware upgrade....but once in a while they screw up royally. The broadbandreports forum is a good place to check to see if the newest firmware is worth it for your device.


As for the comment about having the correct Generation of wireless equipment. That's one persons experience. When you start learning around wireless you treat is as if it was some sort of magical voodoo. Later on as you learn more it becomes one part science, one part art form. And then finally when you learn enough it becomes all science.

The comment about matching generations of equipment is direct towards one of the following:

  • Spatial diversity
  • Draft standards/protocol standards
  • Proprietary tweaks


All said, if you stay away from proprietary versions of wireless protocols, draft standards and stay away from 1x1 equipment you should be fine.

And I love the 3x3 crowd who seem to think that 3x3 is going to make their system faster. Stable, possibly, maybe, yes.....but some sort of significant improvement....um no.


Antenna arrays are strange topic, there are some general comments I can make but unless you have rather very expensive wireless testing equipment you are not going to be able to make a complete informed decision on which antenna setup will be better in all scenarios.

That said, I have used large external antennas and I have use devices with internal antennas.

I have found that most of the external setups radiate farther distance wise. BUT many of the internal setups give a better quality signal when you actually have signal. This is all a balancing act between quality of signal and having a signal.

Now let me give you some advice since you have inSSIDer.

Wireless is as dependant on the access point as it is on the client. Think of wireless as two guys with megaphones shouting at each other from two different mountain tops. If the one guy is very loud the other guy can hear him. If the other guy isn't as loud the first guy may not hear his reply. Wireless works just like that. So the client's radio is just as important.

Now go back and look at your inSSIDer amplitude in dBm You should have no issues connecting at 144Mbps if you have a signal stronger than -70dBm.

Yours looks excellent at better than -63dBm. Your chart does not show a signal problem. It does show an interference problem. There's a sticky thread in this subforum that has pages and pages of recommended routers. I've commented there plenty of times. There are plenty of recommendations there....including some by me. There are recommended units by Netgear, Asus, TP-link, Belkin, Apple, Linksys....not many for d-link recently.

The D-link Dir-655 was awesome back in the day, and we hoped that the Dir-855 was just as good, but that never materialized. The DIR-825 was D-link trying to make a inexpensive feature reduced version of the 855.

The DIR-825 is/was ok. It was never a higher end router/AP
 
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Your router is in 40Mhz mode and your signal is overlapping other channels that are in use. (This is very bad when using 40Mhz channel width mode)
Your radio is set on a partly overlapping channel, which will cause some interference .

Corrective actions needed taken:

  • Manually set your wireless radio to either channel 6 (good) or channel 11 (better)
  • Change your channel width to 20Mhz. (you need to make sure your system is working correctly and stable at 20Mhz channel width before attempting to get 40Mhz mode to work without issue)

ok, did both of those


Also your router the DIR-825 has dual band, meaning it can output on either 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz, but not both at the same time. Your router is not equipped with two independent radios inside (some more expensive models do) So if you choose to use both expect your performance to drop up to 60% when you do use both simultaneously.

ok, so my daughter was connecting to the 5Ghz downstairs. I disabled the 5Ghz on the N, and set it to only use Wireless-N, not a/b/g/n mixed. Had to reconnect, but that's cool

so I'll post an update here of the pictures and such from the tabs

EDIT - HOLEEEE SHEEETTT!!!!

*jaw drop* jesus h christ man....omfg...seriously?!?!? THAT'S ALL IT TOOK?

i was downloading some torrents before I did this whole sheebang. crappy speed, maybe about 200kb/s. Did the changes, now I'm seeing speeds of nearly 2Mb/s

oh
my
god

:eek::eek::D:D

so I think the settings worked. Good lordie. I am amazed...

ok, so I already ordered the Asus anyway. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but with the Asus, I will be able to run the 5 GHz channel AND the 2.4 GHz channels at the same time. My daughter and wife downstairs can connect to the 5 GHz, and I can connect upstairs to the 2.4 GHz at the same time, with no problems or loss of performance, right?

oh yeah, the pics (mine is the blue line):

vRUFbtW.jpg

Mh0wPut.jpg
 
Yes you can use both 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at the same time with the Asus RT-N66u.

The scary part is you are now effectively downloading 10 X faster. :D
 
Unless you know the internals of the router...


"simultaneous dual band" means "it has two radios"

"dual band" means it might not.

ok, that's good info.

Those usb adapters are terrible with very few exceptionst. A having a huge honking antenna on a laptop is impractical for those of us who use a laptop as a laptop.

Personally I 'd actually change out the wireless card in the laptop. They re inexpensive and arn't that hard to change out. The Intel® Centrino® Advanced-N 6205 is a direct swap. I could probably swap it out of that lenovo in 3 minutes. Maybe take another couple of minutes to download and install the Intel proset drivers.

I looked into that, and in fact that was going to be my first move, except that apparently Lenovo has some type of "blacklist" or "graylist" or something, and the Lenovo Ideapad BIOS will simply not allow any other type of internal wireless card in the laptop. I had alreayd changed out the little crappy 32 GB "cache" SSD for a 240GB one and installed Win7Pro64 on it, so I figured I'd just get a new wireless card since I had read about the cruddy performance of the Centrino2200 or whatever it's called, but unless I'm not understanding things, the Lenovo Ideapad simply won't allow it

http://www.amazon.com/Centrino®-Adv...TF8&qid=1363142194&sr=1-3&keywords=6205+intel


Usually manufactures make a device better with each firmware upgrade....but once in a while they screw up royally. The broadbandreports forum is a good place to check to see if the newest firmware is worth it for your device.


As for the comment about having the correct Generation of wireless equipment. That's one persons experience. When you start learning around wireless you treat is as if it was some sort of magical voodoo. Later on as you learn more it becomes one part science, one part art form. And then finally when you learn enough it becomes all science.

The comment about matching generations of equipment is direct towards one of the following:

  • Spatial diversity
  • Draft standards/protocol standards
  • Proprietary tweaks


All said, if you stay away from proprietary versions of wireless protocols, draft standards and stay away from 1x1 equipment you should be fine.

And I love the 3x3 crowd who seem to think that 3x3 is going to make their system faster. Stable, possibly, maybe, yes.....but some sort of significant improvement....um no.


Antenna arrays are strange topic, there are some general comments I can make but unless you have rather very expensive wireless testing equipment you are not going to be able to make a complete informed decision on which antenna setup will be better in all scenarios.

That said, I have used large external antennas and I have use devices with internal antennas.

I have found that most of the external setups radiate farther distance wise. BUT many of the internal setups give a better quality signal when you actually have signal. This is all a balancing act between quality of signal and having a signal.

Now let me give you some advice since you have inSSIDer.

Wireless is as dependant on the access point as it is on the client. Think of wireless as two guys with megaphones shouting at each other from two different mountain tops. If the one guy is very loud the other guy can hear him. If the other guy isn't as loud the first guy may not hear his reply. Wireless works just like that. So the client's radio is just as important.

Now go back and look at your inSSIDer amplitude in dBm You should have no issues connecting at 144Mbps if you have a signal stronger than -70dBm.

Yours looks excellent at better than -63dBm. Your chart does not show a signal problem. It does show an interference problem. There's a sticky thread in this subforum that has pages and pages of recommended routers. I've commented there plenty of times. There are plenty of recommendations there....including some by me. There are recommended units by Netgear, Asus, TP-link, Belkin, Apple, Linksys....not many for d-link recently.

The D-link Dir-655 was awesome back in the day, and we hoped that the Dir-855 was just as good, but that never materialized. The DIR-825 was D-link trying to make a inexpensive feature reduced version of the 855.

The DIR-825 is/was ok. It was never a higher end router/AP

that's some pretty awesome information.

So right now I've been downloading at just under 2 Mb/s for a good 45 minutes or so since I made the changes you suggested. I was way low...like 200kb/s ish for several hours before hand. As soon as I made the changes, BLAM...hovering between 1.5Mb/s and 2.0Mb/s.

I am truly awestruck right now at the difference the changes made. Wow. Wow. Wow.

So I have the Asus RT-N66U already ordered and on its way.

I had never even CONSIDERED streaming anything, but now I really wonder if I might be able to do it with the Asus.

Is there a website somewhere that has THIS DETAILED (yet easily understood) of an explanation about what the heck I just did? I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this and tell me what to look for. I'm seriously appreciative!
 
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Yes you can use both 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at the same time with the Asus RT-N66u.

The scary part is you are now effectively downloading 10 X faster. :D

[H]ard|Gawd is a truly appropriate moniker for you man, I so appreciate it.

now, I notice my download speeds have noticeably increased. Is it a function of "one goes up, the other goes down" that my browsing speed is *slightly* slower, i.e. webpages take a moment or 2 longer to open? Certainly not a big deal, just wondering, for the most part.

thanks again!
 
The slight hesitation you are seeing is the onboard QOS trying to make sure everyone stays connected while you download. If you have more than 8 wireless devices connect...that 825 has its hands full trying to balance all those connections while maintaining some level of responsiveness.

smallnetbuilder is a good place to brush up on basic wireless and networking. But if you're hard core you'll visit places like the ubiquiti forum. Some of the conversations there are quite technical.

When you get your new router, you will need to turn on WMM and run the QOS wizard. Everything else is stuff we have already covered in this thread.

Take care,

Mackintire
 
There are ways around the whitelist......like installing a unlocked BIOS

http://www.techinferno.com/downloads/?did=50


Discussion about it here:
http://forum.techinferno.com/lenovo-ibm/2260-lenovo-y580-y480-unlocked-bios-versions-4.html


This tidbit may also be relevant:
downloaded [Y580][Y480]-'unlocked_BIOS'_660mGHzEdition_WhitelistMod, extracted it, and ran InsydeFlash.exe as admin and I receive the following error.

"The version of the rom file isn't newer than version of bios."

I hit OK and the program closes.

Now what?



- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by svl7
Damn, forgot to change this... you'll need to modifiy the platform file, first line in the 'common flash' section -> change RESSEN to RESSDIS and try again.

downloaded [Y580][Y480]-'unlocked_BIOS'_660mGHzEdition_WhitelistMod, extracted it, and ran InsydeFlash.exe as admin and I receive the following error.

"The version of the rom file isn't newer than version of bios."

I hit OK and the program closes.

Now what?


Thanks for all your help thus far svl7. I'm a noob lol =)

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by svl7
Damn, forgot to change this... you'll need to modifiy the platform file, first line in the 'common flash' section -> change RESSEN to RESSDIS and try again.
 
The slight hesitation you are seeing is the onboard QOS trying to make sure everyone stays connected while you download. If you have more than 8 wireless devices connect...that 825 has its hands full trying to balance all those connections while maintaining some level of responsiveness.

well, I have 1, 2, 3, 4 laptops, a printer, a DirecTV DVR whole-house..."thing", a Samsung tablet, and 4 cell phones. :p

is this another thing that the Asus will help with?

Incidentally, just had to reboot the router as I lost internet. Signal never wavered, got a few spikes on my inSSIDer Time graph too, but that's it.

smallnetbuilder is a good place to brush up on basic wireless and networking. But if you're hard core you'll visit places like the ubiquiti forum. Some of the conversations there are quite technical.

ha. yeah, technical. I'll go for the smallnetbuilder, thanks!

When you get your new router, you will need to turn on WMM and run the QOS wizard. Everything else is stuff we have already covered in this thread.

outstanding! Thanks a ton for the help!
 
"The asus router removes that problem though, right?"

No. The ASUS router will allow you to use 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at the same time without a performance penalty.

I do not know of any reasonably priced wireless access point device that offers Wireless N and supports Wireless G at the same time without this issue.

If someone really wants a retain wireless G access and maintain a high performance Wireless N network they will need a second access point and an unobstructed 2.4Ghz channel. Few people outside of this forum and other similar forums :p are nerotic enough to do that.

1) So how does the AC-66U not solve this problem? Wasn't the problem you described that connecting to both frequencies at the same time causes a penalty?

2) I think I am a neurotic one. My Cell Phone is N 2.4ghz only, I have an old pentium M work laptop in the garage that is G and I'm not sure it can be upgraded. I was planning on picking up the ASUS RT-AC66U and wirless AS PCI-E card.

http://www.amazon.com/RT-AC66U-Dual...bit-Router/dp/B008ABOJKS/ref=pd_bxgy_pc_img_y

http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Computer...UTF8&colid=8OR2I0N7MMDK&coliid=I2LIDWWOSJESGQ

I wanted to do this to remove a cat5e cable that is run across the hallway to my HTPC and has been tapped to my carpet for a couple years.

After reading your posts my understanding is that I won't be able to achieve AC speeds if someone is using the old work laptop, or maybe even if my phone connects? This means if someone is streaming a HD video from my windows home server, that it will suddenly start cutting out if someone connects using 2.4ghz N or or turns on my old laptop?

Maybe I really should just knock out my plaster wall and run a cable then? I have been avoiding this because I would need to find a drywaller who knows how to patch plaster walls and cut in boxes and help me run cable :(

Sorry, I don't understand what those graphs show in the posts above, a bit over my head. I always just like wired connections in the past but worming through blown in fiberglass in my attic and punching holes in my walls is proving to be difficult to do. I was about to experiment and now I am having second thoughts.

So bottom line is that even this $300 setup will not be able to support G and N at the same time without dramatic performance loss? Should I just keep my old G router around too then, would that solve the problem?
 
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@ Mackintire

Well, you somewhat summarized what I meant but not totally what I was trying to say. Never radios have less bugs, be it DMA TX/RX issues and so. Looking open source drivers you can tell that there are hardware bugs that affects performance quite a bit between generations pretty much like chipsets etc. Pretty much no vendor apply proprietary treats nowdays but going from (as an example) Atheros AR91XX to AR93XX can make a huge difference. While the Intel card (6205) is pretty solid I've seen pretty deadful performance when you have lots of devices in the 2.4Ghz range, be it APs or devices. My Intel 6205 barely negotiates at ~100mbit and usually decides that 40-ish is good enough. Switching it to an AR9382 improved performance 3 times compared to my Intel card and its much more stable. Intel makes good hardware in general no doubt but I think the 6205 is starting to show its age, it does on the other hand work well if its a rather clean 2.4Ghz.

FWIW your "awesome" DIR-655 actually uses Atheros radios, the DIR-825 does so too. Not the same (655 seems to be a generation older depending on hw revision), many manufacturers including Ubiquiti choose Atheros (now QCA) for a reason...
DIR-825 also supports 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz simulationsly, http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...nside-story-d-link-dir-825-vs-dir-855?start=1 .

@ sgtrobo
Apart from what Mackintire said I just want to clarify a few things... If you're going with Asus you most likely will get best performance using Ralink based radios even though 11n itself is a standard. In your case RT3592 or RT5592 would be best. In overall performance I've found Atheros/Qualcomm radios to perform best irregardless of radio of the AP/Router, AR9382 would be a good solution in that case and you get much better open source support too if you want to run Linux/*BSD.
As for firmware unless there's screwup they generally improve overall performance and update radio drivers/firmware so keeping it up to date will give you better performance in the end.

Just my 2 cents...

//Danne
 
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@ Mackintire

Well, you somewhat summarized what I meant but not totally what I was trying to say. Never radios have less bugs, be it DMA TX/RX issues and so. Looking open source drivers you can tell that there are hardware bugs that affects performance quite a bit between generations pretty much like chipsets etc. Pretty much no vendor apply proprietary treats nowdays but going from (as an example) Atheros AR91XX to AR93XX can make a huge difference. While the Intel card (6205) is pretty solid I've seen pretty deadful performance when you have lots of devices in the 2.4Ghz range, be it APs or devices. My Intel 6205 barely negotiates at ~100mbit and usually decides that 40-ish is good enough. Switching it to an AR9382 improved performance 3 times compared to my Intel card and its much more stable. Intel makes good hardware in general no doubt but I think the 6205 is starting to show its age, it does on the other hand work well if its a rather clean 2.4Ghz.

FWIW your "awesome" DIR-655 actually uses Atheros radios, the DIR-825 does so too. Not the same (655 seems to be a generation older depending on hw revision), many manufacturers including Ubiquiti choose Atheros (now QCA) for a reason...
DIR-825 also supports 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz simulationsly, http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...nside-story-d-link-dir-825-vs-dir-855?start=1 .

@ sgtrobo
Apart from what Mackintire said I just want to clarify a few things... If you're going with Asus you most likely will get best performance using Ralink based radios even though 11n itself is a standard. In your case RT3592 or RT5592 would be best. In overall performance I've found Atheros/Qualcomm radios to perform best irregardless of radio of the AP/Router, AR9382 would be a good solution in that case and you get much better open source support too if you want to run Linux/*BSD.
As for firmware unless there's screwup they generally improve overall performance and update radio drivers/firmware so keeping it up to date will give you better performance in the end.

Just my 2 cents...

//Danne


My bad, according to smallnetbuilder the DIR-825 is dual radio unit. :eek:

From his description OP still has a possible issue on either his 825 router or the modem end. When his ASUS unit has been setup he'll know for sure.

Most of the Intel wireless chipset also have their power output turned down to "med" by default. It's buried in the adapter configuration. You may have better performance if you change it to high. I think the reason Intel set it up this way was to conserve power. I've never personally used the 6205. I've used the 2200 the 6300.


And to answer "Justintoxicated" yes, in order to not have your N system down grade to G speeds you need to have your G device connected to another AP.

But wait...

I figured someone out on the web would have a better solution... you need to upgrade/install this into your laptop:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704061
 
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@ sgtrobo
If you're going with Asus you most likely will get best performance using Ralink based radios even though 11n itself is a standard.

I'm sorry but I don't know what "ralink based radios" means. Does that mean I should get an RALink radio? I assume by "radio" you mean "router"?

In your case RT3592 or RT5592 would be best. In overall performance I've found Atheros/Qualcomm radios to perform best irregardless of radio of the AP/Router, AR9382 would be a good solution in that case

ok, so a WiFi adapter that uses these chipsets?

trying to make sure I'm understanding everything here

From his description OP still has a possible issue on either his 825 router or the modem end. When his ASUS unit has been setup he'll know for sure.

yeah, like yesterday, had to reboot the router because EVERYBODY lost internet connection, yet nobody lost router connection.

Mackintire said:
I figured someone out on the web would have a better solution... you need to upgrade/install this into your laptop:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035GV6FE?tag=intercept-kb-20

well, that is down the road

1. Get Asus RT-N66U working properly
2. Figure out how to use a 'hacked' BIOS to get around the whitelist
3. Install that product above. :p
 
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I'm sorry but I don't know what "ralink based radios" means. Does that mean I should get an RALink radio? I assume by "radio" you mean "router"?



ok, so a WiFi adapter that uses these chipsets?

trying to make sure I'm understanding everything here



yeah, like yesterday, had to reboot the router because EVERYBODY lost internet connection, yet nobody lost router connection.



well, that is down the road

1. Get Asus RT-N66U working properly
2. Figure out how to use a 'hacked' BIOS to get around the whitelist


Check your links!!!!


Sgtrobo you need something like this that supports mPCIe:
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-6235AN-...TF8&qid=1363184937&sr=8-5&keywords=Intel+6205

I believe this is the upscale 2x2 version of the 6205, and may give you better performance than the 6205.



Justintoxicated you need this for your mPCI based laptop:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035GV6FE?tag=intercept-kb-20
 
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fixed the quoted link

I was pointing out that the link you quoted from my post...was NOT the device you need.

Your link points to a TP-link adapter that physically will not fit in your laptop and does not have 5Ghz support.

I posted a link for you to a Intel 6235 adapter.that does fit your laptop and has 5Ghz support.
 
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