Windows 8 helping me sell sell sell.

[heatlesssun]

And lighting conditions. In certain lighting conditions, the extent of fingerprints can mean the difference between "usable" and "unusable".

And this is why God created microfiber cloths and LCD screen wipes. I clean my tablets once or twice a day with LCD wipes and always a microfiber cloth with me. People love to talk about nasty finger prints on a tablet and yes they are distracting if don't clean them but how many people wipe down their keyboards once or twice a day?

I'd rather touch my tablets than most peoples keyboards including my own keyboards simply because its SO easy to clean a tablet versus a keyboard.

 

[ChronoDetector]

The Metro design looks like shit really, and why the fuck did Microsoft get rid of the Start bar anyway? It has worked fine since Windows 95 and what made Windows special.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

The Metro design looks like shit really, and why the fuck did Microsoft get rid of the Start bar anyway? It has worked fine since Windows 95 and what made Windows special.

Assuming you mean the start button? I am sorry but this is just not a legitimate complaint except on certain multi-monitor setups.

 

[XOR != OR]

Assuming you mean the start button? I am sorry but this is just not a legitimate complaint except on certain multi-monitor setups.

Ok, I'll bite: Why isn't it a legitimate complaint? And why does it matter if we're talking about multi-monitor setups?

 

[JeffyB]

I've slogged through this entire thread, and, honestly, my single biggest complaint hasn't been addressed by anyone, so I'm adding my $.02...

I have two main usage scenarios. My PC has three monitors, side by side. I either use windows "normally", or I use a virtual PC or two as a sub-window on one of the screens, depending on what I'm doing.

With Windows 7, I have a large-ish target to hit as the start button.
On my wife's laptop, Windows 8 provides nice, easy to hit target. Slide the cursor all the way to the bottom left, bam. You're done. (This works in 7 as well, but the visual cue tempts me to click on the button, rather than the corner.)

On my PC, however, this design simply doesn't work.
It is much more difficult to get the cursor to "stick" in a given corner, due to the tendency of the cursor to swing to the next screen. If I put the start screen on the far left monitor, I can't use the right-side corners easily. On the right screen, and I have the opposite problem. When it is on my preferred screen, the center one, none of the corners are easily hit. There is no instant visual cue, no sticky zone, nothing persistent to indicate when you're in the right spot.

Honestly, more than anything else, that is my complaint.
Nothing else bothers me, and I don't see much difference between 7 & 8 for most of my usage.

(Although, I do have to agree with the earlier statement that dragging a metro app all the way to the bottom just to close it is kind of ridiculous.)

 

[heatlesssun]

Your point about multiple monitors is quite valid. I'm running the CP on a dual screen machine and the hot corners don't really work well with, well without corners. It's not an easy thing to fix I don't think, I can't really think of a good solution. But Windows 7 actually has a similar problem with Aero Snap as it relies on edges.

The keyboard is your friend in this case but of all the issues that Metro has, which aren't that many IMHO, hot corners on multiple monitors is the biggest gripe for me. It's something that I hope MS can find a better method for in the RTM.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

Ok, I'll bite: Why isn't it a legitimate complaint? And why does it matter if we're talking about multi-monitor setups?

Behavior is exactly the same, the button is just gone.
Depending on how your monitors are setup for primary/secondary certain corners are hard to hit.

 

[XOR != OR]

Behavior is exactly the same, the button is just gone.
Depending on how your monitors are setup for primary/secondary certain corners are hard to hit.

Behavior is obviously not the same, given that the button is gone.

I know, I know...rah rah rah, MS IS TEH AWESOME. Don't let me get in the way of your proselytizing.

ADDED: I think I'll duck out of this thread now. I'm growing weary of the cheerleading by a select few individuals which, I suspect, is bought and paid for. Instead, I'll let my previous posts stand on their own, and I'll be bookmarking this and the other windows 8 threads for future reference.

 

[JeffyB]

Honestly, something that would go a long way to fixing the hot corners would be relatively simple.

Allow size adjustments.
Allow colorization (of some sort).

If I can make the corners larger, and / or can make them visually distinct, I doubt that I would have any problem with them.

It would also have the secondary benefit that new users could see that something was different with a given corner, and may attempt to click the difference.

Like a button.
But not a button.

And now we can all get along.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

Behavior is obviously not the same, given that the button is gone.

I know, I know...rah rah rah, MS IS TEH AWESOME. Don't let me get in the way of your proselytizing.

ADDED: I think I'll duck out of this thread now. I'm growing weary of the cheerleading by a select few individuals which, I suspect, is bought and paid for. Instead, I'll let my previous posts stand on their own, and I'll be bookmarking this and the other windows 8 threads for future reference.

Complaints about the start button are 2 groups of people - those who hate change and those who use multiple monitors. I can't remember the last time in Windows 7 I actually clicked the button itself, I ALWAYS click the corner of the screen below and to the left of the round button.

There are many things that can receive valid complaints, but on a single-monitor setup the start button is not one of them.

 

[heatlesssun]

Honestly, something that would go a long way to fixing the hot corners would be relatively simple.

Allow size adjustments.
Allow colorization (of some sort).

If I can make the corners larger, and / or can make them visually distinct, I doubt that I would have any problem with them.

It would also have the secondary benefit that new users could see that something was different with a given corner, and may attempt to click the difference.

Like a button.
But not a button.

And now we can all get along.

The problem I find with the corners is simply hitting them accurately because when the corners aren't actually corners then Fitt's law goes out the window.

I'm not that concerned about discoverability. There are tons of undiscoverable user input elements in mobile OSes these days and I don't really hear people complain much about those.

 

[Monkey34]

I can't remember the last time in Windows 7 I actually clicked the button itself, I ALWAYS click the corner of the screen below and to the left of the round button.

Feel sorry for you..... but personally, I haven't lost my hand/eye co-ordination yet. My cursor actually lands directly on the button.

That might change when I'm in my 60's or 70's, but by then 8 will be today's DOS.

 

[ChronoDetector]

Not everybody uses multi monitor setups, and Microsoft eliminating the start button/menu is pretty damn stupid, WTF were they thinking.

And Metro just looks bloated and unnecessary.

 

[DeathPrincess]

Complaints about the start button are 2 groups of people - those who hate change and those who use multiple monitors. I can't remember the last time in Windows 7 I actually clicked the button itself, I ALWAYS click the corner of the screen below and to the left of the round button.

There are many things that can receive valid complaints, but on a single-monitor setup the start button is not one of them.

I like change... If it comes with benefit. If it's just change because it's change and it messes up a load of stuff and is just there because it's there. It kind of feels pretty pointless. As all these new "enhancements" are irreversible and don't add anything, it feels pretty stupid. Also kind of confusing how it could be an improvement, and why anyone would want to use it over what came before.

There is 0 reason why options have been removed and couldn't be put back. You may not want a button in the corner, but how would that harm you if other people did? What technical reasons are there why it can't be there? Or progress is made by it's not? Even for touch interfaces a stupid hover thing is a backwards step vs an easily pressable button. Even sitting relaxing clicking stuff with just a mouse is more annoying because of the temperamental nature of it.

People want options different to you. People want options different from me. There is no reason why all people couldn't be served.

 

[PGHammer]

Yeah this is what I dont understand here. The Pro Windows 8/Tablet brigade are so for this they don't want to compromise and are happy for the majority of users have to use a compromised desktop OS for no real reason other than to push the glory and wonder that is tablets.

The anti (actually I wouldn't call us anti, just slightly disappointed/frustrated) Windows8/desktop brigade are more than happy for Windows 8 to work superbly on tablets for the tablet apologists, its just that we also would like it to work superbly on Desktops too and that means some slight changes to Windows 8.

You see we are happy to compromise and let Tablet fans have just what they want, we just want some of the love too but the other half just cant see it.

Windows 8 Consumer Preview works just fine on my current desktop (Q6600/4 GB of DDR2-800/ASUS P5G41-M LX2/GB). If anything, it works better (yes - better) than 7 x64 Ultimate + SP1 did (same hardware), and with the same applications and games.

One major peeve I had with Windows 7's Start Menu is that it becomes very cumbersome to work with when you have a lot of applications/games/etc. installed that don't have desktop or Taskbar shortcuts. You wind up spending extra time doing extra fiddlework getting the Start Menu organized that you COULD be spending working (or gaming). The detractors complain that, if anything, the StartScreen is even more cluttered than the Start Menu is. However, one thing that Windows 8 (the original Developer Preview, and the current Consumer Preview) has done (that no previous version of Windows has done) is make the StartScreen/Start menu *itself* searchable.

There are three different ways of accessing the vastly more leverageable Search - however, the easiest way (for keyboard users - the biggest group of detractors) is right under our fingers - the Windows logo key. Tapping this key by itself launches Search; adding a letter (typically the first letter) of the application we're chasing brings up every application, game, etc. beginning with that letter. Adding more letters narrows the search focus. Because of this slick feature (which is unique to Windows 8), I need not do anything to organize the StartScreen - clutter is irrelevant.

You need not do *anything* to use this feature with existing applications - it's part of the operating system. (The technology behind it isn't new either - it's Microsoft Index Server, which has been part of every desktop version of Windows since Windows 2000 Professional.) As long as the application, game, whatever is compatible with the OS (and practically any application back to as far as Windows 2000 Professional is), Search can - and will - track it down if the computer can access it. The closest tool to the new Search in any non-Windows OS is Spotlight in OS X; however, Search has Spotlight well and truly smoked. That's why I could care less about StartScreen clutter, and why I don't miss the Start menu at all - despite running Windows 8 on a desktop, using a keyboard and mouse.

The backward-compatibility in the Windows 8 Consumer Preview sets a new standard for versions of Windows period - let alone preview/beta versions. As long as an OS-included feature didn't make something I'd normally use in 7 moot, I kept it in the Consumer Preview utterly without issues. Every application. Every game. Every utility. Every driver. Greater stability. Better performance all around. If anything, I push the envelope more than I did with Windows 7 (on the same hardware).

Now to those WinRT applications that the detractors are saying are the real reason for the vastly changed UI. Just as is the case with applications written traditionally, there are some real stars, and a few lemons - one WinRT app that is both (through no fault of its own) is Windows Reader, which is included with the Consumer Preview. It's a star in that it supports not just the XPS format, but the Acrobat PDF format as well. Like most WinRT apps, it can be run full-screen or docked to one side or the other of a second Windows (Win32 or WinRT) application, app, or game. The lemon part comes due to not supporting custom window settings - however, WinRT itself has no support for custom screen sizes; therefore, I don't blame the application. (The same applies to the WinRT Kindle app.) That is why there are still uses for the traditional applications I use for both PDF viewing and Kindle e-books (Adobe Reader and Kindle for Win32, respectively) - both of which work in the Consumer Preview just fine. Unless you are running Windows RT (the formal name for Windows on ARM), the issue is irrelevant - you can run entirely sans WinRT apps if you want.

Is the new UI jarring? You bet it is - it's not what we're used to.

And that is, from what I've seen, and especially from the detractors, the real issue - it's NOT what has been in front of our faces, let alone under our pointers, for the past decade - let alone the past two. (The inverse of that is why one previous niche SKU of Windows - XP Tablet PC Edition - was a massive failure; it was TOO different from the rest of the Windows XP SKU family.) Windows 8, on the other hand, is like the one niche version of Windows XP that was a smash success, despite being a niche SKU - XP Media Center Edition. XP MCE was a rousing success for three reasons -

1. It had the same default UI as XP Home and XP Professional - the only difference was the default theme - the originally-unique-to-MCE Royale.
2. XP MCE was basically a fusion of XP Professional and XP TPE - and could support applications from either. The only lack was domain support (which was fixable via a Registry edit).
3. XP MCE was not purchasable retail - however, it was available to system builders via the OEM/System Builder/DIY channel, and for the same price as, if not less than, XP Professional. (XP MCE could be said to be the precursor to Vista and 7 Ultimate for precisely that reason - it was the first "kitchen sink" version of Windows.) That alone made it popular with DIY builders and upgraders.

Segue to the RTM of Windows 8 (and Windows 8 Professional in particular) - upgrading to Windows 8 Professional (and especially from 7 Home Premium and 7 Ultimate) should be (as long as you aren't tightly tied to the Start menu) pretty much a no-brainer due to performance and stability (not to mention backward-compatibility) improvements, especially compared to Windows 7 - even with Service Pack 1 applied. (I have basically *fired* Windows 7 for precisely that reason.)

 

[Monkey34]

What about all the [H] users who have it installed already? Did they get it pre-installed on their new machines?

No. Neither did I when I installed it.....and now that I've used it, there is no compelling reason to keep using it over 7.
If you are enthralled by it, great - keep using it....but judging from user feedback, I'd say you are not in the majority.

 

[wonderfield]

However, one thing that Windows 8 (the original Developer Preview, and the current Consumer Preview) has done (that no previous version of Windows has done) is make the StartScreen/Start menu *itself* searchable.

That's true of 7 and possibly Vista as well. Add a shortcut in any location in the Start menu, for instance, and it will come as a result for queries instantaneously.

The rest of the search behavior you described applies to Windows Vista/7 as well. Windows key; start typing; results drill down in response to modifying the query string. Windows 8 changes nothing here. In reality, Windows 8 can make getting to the correct result in a search significantly more cumbersome. I've been using the CP for several weeks now, and was using the DP prior to that, and I still struggle with getting into the right 'tab' for results in the Settings group. I know the keys I need to press to get into that context, but it's still not at the point where I can just do it naturally.

One could argue that grouping search results yields less clutter for search results, but it's less intuitive than simply drilling down by adding to the query string, in my opinion. I think most would agree.

The closest tool to the new Search in any non-Windows OS is Spotlight in OS X; however, Search has Spotlight well and truly smoked.

Try adding two numbers together in Windows Search. See how it 'smokes' Spotlight.

 

[MrCrispy]

No matter what your personal views are on it, its clear Microsoft have decided to simply ignore the huge number of complaints and issues raised by people about Metro on desktop, forcing tablet usage on pc's etc. They haven't given addressed it or given any justification on the b8 blog, when nearly every post has people talking about it, and no replies from MS.

That is disappointing, and I don't think Win 8 will sell like Win 7. There are very few people really excited about it, most who buy are the 'its a better Windows' people.

 

[MrCrispy]

Your point about multiple monitors is quite valid. I'm running the CP on a dual screen machine and the hot corners don't really work well with, well without corners. It's not an easy thing to fix I don't think, I can't really think of a good solution. But Windows 7 actually has a similar problem with Aero Snap as it relies on edges.

The keyboard is your friend in this case but of all the issues that Metro has, which aren't that many IMHO, hot corners on multiple monitors is the biggest gripe for me. It's something that I hope MS can find a better method for in the RTM.

It's a symptom of the Windows 8 design philosophy - build an OS for a tablet and hack it to work on the desktop. It's completely backward.

I don't think MS will fix it. Their standard reply to most issues has been - Win 8 was built to address issues for the most common cases. Multiple monitors apparently are not common enough, otherwise I don't understand how they wouldn't encounter such a big issue.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

No matter what your personal views are on it, its clear Microsoft have decided to simply ignore the huge number of complaints and issues raised by people about Metro on desktop, forcing tablet usage on pc's etc. They haven't given addressed it or given any justification on the b8 blog, when nearly every post has people talking about it, and no replies from MS.

That is disappointing, and I don't think Win 8 will sell like Win 7. There are very few people really excited about it, most who buy are the 'its a better Windows' people.

Windows 7 is by far and a way the best selling operating system of all time, and considering most of their enterprise customers skipped Vista and upgraded to 7 most of those customers won't even be looking for an OS upgrade, no matter how good it is or isn't.

As for the Building Windows 8 blog...why should Microsoft respond to the massive amount of trolling that goes on? 70% of the comments posted on that site are non-sensical rambling.

You describe Metro as a "hack" where as I would describe it as an interface that works well on tablets and desktops. There are so few actual reasons posted in this thread and the W8 consumer preview thread about why Metro sucks it has become quite amusing.

 

[jkerr2]

Well I have used it for a while. I will add my vote as it is a hack on the desktop. I don't like the great big tiles for the start menu at all. I will reserve my judgement for the tablet.

 

[x509]

I'd be very surprised if MS are that arrogant compared to the Vista experience. There is more choice now, especially in the cloud / connected world for them not to be arrogant.

I work on an account that by one measure is the largest commercial company in the world.

Boeing? ExxonMobil? WalMart? Apple?

They will be doing Windows 8 AFAIK. I would be very surprised if Metro is "forced" on the population across all worker types.

Agreed. That "largest commercial company" probably, correction: certainly builds a custom image including apps, configurations, options locked down, etc., and that is what they roll out. It's not those companies that MS should be concerned about. It's all the SMBs, (small-medium businesses) that have little or no IT stall in-house.

On the other hand, the ribbon bar does show "previous"...

I'm a heavy MS Office user, because I have to be proficient in Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE that d--- ribbon. All the things that I know I can do with those apps from Office 2003, half the time I can't figure out which ribbon button to click so I can do them in Office 2010.

x509

 

[heatlesssun]

The thing is, Microsoft isn't doing Metro and touch first in Windows out of arrogance but out of desperation. The desktop is a stagnant market, there's no place to go in a keyboard and mouse only world.

I'm a heavy MS Office user, because I have to be proficient in Outlook, Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE that d--- ribbon. All the things that I know I can do with those apps from Office 2003, half the time I can't figure out which ribbon button to click so I can do them in Office 2010.

x509

So Microsoft is supposed to just keep the same interface forever? I also work in a large commercial environment, one of Microsoft's best commercial customers, about 300,000 PCs all running Windows with a current migration project to Windows 7 across all of them. And we did a rollout of Office 2007 two years ago as well. That went very well and the bottom line is that most people just figured it out. No training costs, other than online material, no disruptions in work, none of this OMG stuff is different, everyone is too stupid to adapt nonsense.

There's probably not one thing that anyone posting anonymous comments all around the wen about Windows 8 Microsoft hadn't already heard. I'm sure that Microsoft would love to make everyone happy but that just isn't possible. Microsoft no anyone can expect that Windows be a keyboard and mouse driven OS and have relevance for long, particularly not in the consumer space.

The world is changing. People simply don't want to be tied down my mice and keyboards. They are great devices for high precision and input rates but they suck at being personal and interesting.

The world is moving on, and yes there are those that will hate Metro and the new Start Screen. Those people simply aren't as important as capturing a new market in a market that quite honestly, no one gives two shits about, not enough to billions into to rival Microsoft on the desktop since the market has flatlined.