Windows 8: A Design Disaster

WTF is with Metro anyway, it may work for tablets, but forcing the design on desktop users is plain stupid, and not to mention getting rid of the Start button is one epic fail. As usual, Microsoft did not learn their mistakes from ME or Vista, and looks like they are repeating the same mistake, again. And if Windows 8 suffers from low sales they will blame it on the pirates, just like Vista.
 
Quit with the ME/Vista comparison shit.

The Windows 8 situation is nothing like the issues with those two OS.

Windows 8 appears to be a fully decent performant OS. Technically I have no issues with it. The problem with 8 is a user/UI issue.

ME was just a throwaway mongrel prototype that no one wanted or needed and Vista struggled initially due to its difficult birth, not being fully finished and lack of vendor support on release.

8 doesn't have any of those issues. It just has poor decision making behind it.
 
It almost seems like they told him to write a smear piece just to get attention. I don't think there is a single positive comment in the entire piece.

Still, I'm not sold on the whole WinRT thing either. The only thing I like about it is that the programming model is a lot better than the old Win32 API and why would users care about that?
 
Look at Apple. They designed the dock with apps at the bottom then over the years they improved or re-design the app icons' appearance. This is Apple desktop's personality. I have no problems with it although I rarely use Mac.

Now we all know the history of the famous Start button on the Task bar from Win95. Suddenly MS decided to trash Aero and Start orb AND slapped Metro & Ribbons on us months before the arrival of Win 8 in retail & online stores later this year. This is NOT the personality of the desktop we all knew.

What was MS thinking?
 
If I had to use a mouse for my phone, it would be totally out of place and stupid.

If I'm forced to use a touch screen interface on a desktop, it would be totally out of place and stupid.
 
the problem really to me is the business side of things.

How in the world will a business ever use windows 8?

They really do need two versions.

and I never understood the Vista hate either. If people didn't hold on to their PCs/hardware for so damn long, it wouldhave never been an issue.
 
Bigbacon said:
and I never understood the Vista hate either. If people didn't hold on to their PCs/hardware for so damn long, it wouldhave never been an issue.
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I personally had no issue with Vista from a UI perspective, my problems with it, for one, it was packaged with laptops which it ran shit on, secondly it had compatibility issues with existing devices and programs which I needed to use, lastly, when it came to deciding on Vista or XP for my desktop machine I looked up game performance between the two and there was a noticeable difference, so I stuck with the old reliable XP given at the time gaming was a major consideration.

There was nothing wrong with the Vista UI, The only thing UI wise I didn't like that comes to mind was that they made the taskbar fatter, which never made sense as vertical pixels are a premium on desktop monitors, but it wasn't something I cried about or anything. Overall the UI for Vista was a big improvement over XP, and when I finally moved from XP to Windows 7 I immediately enjoyed the improved UI, none of this "just get used to it" crap, it was actually improved. If it wasn't marred by the technical issues I personally experienced, I would have been on the Vista bandwagon.

Windows 8 on the other hand it is a UI issue, rather than the core OS being the problem.
 
heatlesssun said:
The thing is that you're looking as things as touch and non-touch. Windows 8 looks at as you whatever input method and programs you want to use.
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Because it is touch and non touch. A touch based UI is horribly inefficient on a non touch device. Does it work? Yes..Is it efficient or nice? No. Just because it can, doesn't mean we should.

heatlesssun said:
You mention the app market and there's going to be some number of Metro apps that people will like on any device.



Succeed or fail, Windows 8 will sell hundreds of millions of copies over its lifetime. That's the important thing because it all but guarantees a huge Metro app market. This debate about the UI will wage on but as new devices and apps come online the UI argument becomes less relevant.
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They have said the same thing about the windows market more times and more devices than I can count. Just because it will sell lots of copies, doesn't mean it will generate lots of app market interest.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
They have said the same thing about the windows market more times and more devices than I can count. Just because it will sell lots of copies, doesn't mean it will generate lots of app market interest.
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And just because it sells well also doesn't make it a success or was worth them doing, MS sink a lot of money into development and advertising and getting OEMs to use Windows, it NEEDS huge sales. Especially since they are trying to get into the tablet market where they don't already have an established monopoly.
 
djsb said:
I'm not going to disagree with the gist of the article... but why do people still complain about having no vertical list of programs in the start menu? Who has fallen in love with Win7 as much as the author apparently has, but still insists on the Win95 model of visually searching for shortcuts in the start menu? Ever since I figured out that I could type to search in 2007, I haven't gone into the Programs flyout unless it was to drag in a new shortcut... so that I could search for it later on.
Click to expand...
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/whycsm.html

I hate Win7/Vista's start menu. It's a crutch for disoganized folks who can't be bothered to sort out their program shortcuts.

csm_sorted.png
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Because it is touch and non touch. A touch based UI is horribly inefficient on a non touch device. Does it work? Yes..Is it efficient or nice? No. Just because it can, doesn't mean we should.
Click to expand...

It feels plenty efficient and nice to me with a mouse and keyboard. I can except that some people see it differently, it's just that in all of the months I've been using Windows 8 with pointing devices and keyboards I simply can't see any real difference in how I work on my computers and I live in Office and Visual Studio.

My problem is if Windows 8 is as bad with mice and keyboards as some say, why is it working well for me and others. It's a very subject thing I believe.


Dekoth-E- said:
They have said the same thing about the windows market more times and more devices than I can count. Just because it will sell lots of copies, doesn't mean it will generate lots of app market interest.
Click to expand...

If there are tens of hundreds of millions of Windows 8 machines, and that's going to be the case in time, of course that'll draw a lot of developer interest.
 
I have been installing the Windows 8 builds since they became available. I love it - but then the first thing I do is turn off the Metro UI to make it look and work like Windows 7. Windows 8 is much quicker and more connected than Windows 7. It has been more componentized and fully hardware-accelerated. Processes run in less memory. Have it on my laptop and love it.

Also installed Windows 8 on a tablet computer from Asus and left the Metro UI on. Works pretty well actually. Still not my cup of tea, but I think that is because I'm used to Android. The new surface tablets from Microsoft will actually do pretty well I think.

Just my two cents.
 
heatlesssun said:
It feels plenty efficient and nice to me with a mouse and keyboard. I can except that some people see it differently, it's just that in all of the months I've been using Windows 8 with pointing devices and keyboards I simply can't see any real difference in how I work on my computers and I live in Office and Visual Studio.

My problem is if Windows 8 is as bad with mice and keyboards as some say, why is it working well for me and others. It's a very subject thing I believe.
Click to expand...

I think the point some are trying to make is why perform more clicks to do something that took one click before. Why did they remove the red "X" and put in place a sidebar where you right-click a program's mini window to close it? Why go into the start menu and log off in order to get to the shut down button? Those kind of backward efficiency. I don't think some people like Dekoth is really beating Windows 8 down aesthetically, but rather in some areas that made it "harder" to perform basic tasks.
 
The thing I'm fiting with 8 is pure muscle memory.

When I go to shut down its straight to bottom left rather then go top right. Opening an application its bottom left, not typing or hitting the Windows key. The process of doing things feels more broken up and randomised.

It's having to fight against 20 years of muscle memory. Still not there after 3 months playing around with it.
 
the major downside I see of 8 is they will miss all the business side of things for a LONG time. So many business are still on XP. Computers are cheap but business don't upgrade them very often.

Least where I work, most of the company is still on XP, they just starting rolling out windows 7 company wide but you ONLY get it if it is your time for a PC upgrade, which is like a rolling 3 or 4 year period on machines.
 
damn it,

I am not actually sure how I could do my Job on windows 8. It would be such a chore to do but with Metro and the rise of mobile devices, my job will probably change A LOT in the next few years as everything starts moving towards a mobile-esque design.
 
Is Metro really that bad?

On Windows 7 I hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of whatever I'm trying to run, hit enter, and just like that, my program is running...

On Windows 8 I hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of whatever I'm trying to run, hit enter, and just like that, my program is running...

What's the big deal?
 
Hallucinator said:
This is NOT the personality of the desktop we all knew.
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I'm pretty sure computers haven't gotten to the point where they have personalities just yet. :p Saying stuff like that just shows how emotionally attached people get about the stuff they use to check e-mail and play games.
 
jonathonball said:
Is Metro really that bad?

On Windows 7 I hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of whatever I'm trying to run, hit enter, and just like that, my program is running...

On Windows 8 I hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of whatever I'm trying to run, hit enter, and just like that, my program is running...

What's the big deal?
Click to expand...

The big deal is that most (as in 95% probably) don't use Windows that way. Simple.

Most users only hit the Windows key by accident. Most don't even know what its for.
 
daglesj said:
The big deal is that most (as in 95% probably) don't use Windows that way. Simple.

Most users only hit the Windows key by accident. Most don't even know what its for.
Click to expand...

78% of all statistics are made up...
 
What pisses me off the this attempt to get people locked into an ecosystem. That doesn't work for me on a PC. It is fine on my iPhone, and works for my wife on her macbook + iphone.

I play games from different studios, I don't want them all of the sudden forced to an app store. It is bad enough that I had to use EA to buy BF3 off of steam.

This is nothing but a half assed attempt at following Apple and trying to jump on the app store band wagon. Except the Mac App store is not nearly as successful as it is on the iPad/iPhone.
 
WhoBeDaPlaya said:
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/whycsm.html

I hate Win7/Vista's start menu. It's a crutch for disoganized folks who can't be bothered to sort out their program shortcuts.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww8/dndisturb/AT/csm_sorted.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

For the vast majority of people, it's more than that. It's a way to avoid [url=http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2007/08/23/4517137.aspx]mouse dexterity games[/url], and as others have said, it's much quicker because of winkey->type->enter to launch programs.
Click to expand...
 
XvMMvX said:
What pisses me off the this attempt to get people locked into an ecosystem. That doesn't work for me on a PC. It is fine on my iPhone, and works for my wife on her macbook + iphone.

I play games from different studios, I don't want them all of the sudden forced to an app store. It is bad enough that I had to use EA to buy BF3 off of steam.

This is nothing but a half assed attempt at following Apple and trying to jump on the app store band wagon. Except the Mac App store is not nearly as successful as it is on the iPad/iPhone.
Click to expand...

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's realised this is the whole reason for this.

That makes two of us now.
 
heatlesssun said:
It feels plenty efficient and nice to me with a mouse and keyboard. I can except that some people see it differently, it's just that in all of the months I've been using Windows 8 with pointing devices and keyboards I simply can't see any real difference in how I work on my computers and I live in Office and Visual Studio.

My problem is if Windows 8 is as bad with mice and keyboards as some say, why is it working well for me and others. It's a very subject thing I believe.




If there are tens of hundreds of millions of Windows 8 machines, and that's going to be the case in time, of course that'll draw a lot of developer interest.
Click to expand...

It takes me more clicks to do tasks in Win 8 then it does in Vista and Win 7. That by definition is less efficient. It doesn't matter how it "feels" to you. There is no debating this point.

It isn't a subjective thing at all. I can't believe you haven't understood this extremely simple point yet.

Azhar said:
I think the point some are trying to make is why perform more clicks to do something that took one click before. Why did they remove the red "X" and put in place a sidebar where you right-click a program's mini window to close it? Why go into the start menu and log off in order to get to the shut down button? Those kind of backward efficiency. I don't think some people like Dekoth is really beating Windows 8 down aesthetically, but rather in some areas that made it "harder" to perform basic tasks.
Click to expand...

Thank you for reinforcing this point for me. And no, while I do generally hate Win 8 aesthetically, I am focusing on facts that are indisputable. After all, I hated XP aesthetically but it got used for years for obvious reasons. However right now, Win 8 is coming up as a huge miss for productivity.
 
The desktop power user will be an endangered species, my only fear, if Metro is accepted by the public and forced on OEMs.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
It takes me more clicks to do tasks in Win 8 then it does in Vista and Win 7. That by definition is less efficient. It doesn't matter how it "feels" to you. There is no debating this point.
Click to expand...

But for the overwhelming amount of time that one actually spends using and launching programs there's no difference in mouse clicks. The three areas where this subject comes up is shutting down, searching and accessing All Programs. The amount of time that most people do these things is totally insignificant compared to everything else in which there is absolutely no difference in mouse clicks.

Dekoth-E- said:
It isn't a subjective thing at all. I can't believe you haven't understood this extremely simple point yet.
Click to expand...

Of course its subjective. I transition between different devices and input methods in Windows, its become core to how I use Windows. People who use Windows 8 in this fashion and with hardware that supports it will probably tend to like it more than people who only use it with mouse and keyboard. Microsoft understands this and its one of the reasons why they are building PCs for the first time in their history.
 
EngrChris said:
The desktop power user will be an endangered species, my only fear, if Metro is accepted by the public and forced on OEMs.
Click to expand...

The desktop isn't going anywhere for productivity and gaming and other things that the PC desktop is great with.
 
heatlesssun said:
But for the overwhelming amount of time that one actually spends using and launching programs there's no difference in mouse clicks. The three areas where this subject comes up is shutting down, searching and accessing All Programs. The amount of time that most people do these things is totally insignificant compared to everything else in which there is absolutely no difference in mouse clicks.
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm going to have to stop you there. I pointed one very glaring example: removing the red "x" closing button. You can't sit there and tell us we don't close programs that often to justify the need for a closing button.
 
not very attractive, the look of it is ugly. At least built a superb interface that is very graphically cool but performance is fast at the same time.
 
jonathonball said:
Is Metro really that bad?

On Windows 7 I hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of whatever I'm trying to run, hit enter, and just like that, my program is running...

On Windows 8 I hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of whatever I'm trying to run, hit enter, and just like that, my program is running...

What's the big deal?
Click to expand...

I still don't have a keyboard with a windows key :p
 
Azhar said:
Sorry I'm going to have to stop you there. I pointed one very glaring example: removing the red "x" closing button. You can't sit there and tell us we don't close programs that often to justify the need for a closing button.
Click to expand...

That's not really about mouse clicks, it's a more complex motion, click and drag, however it doesn't require as much precision as the action can be done anywhere along the top of a Metro app. And how many programs on the desktop don't close when you click the close button? How many don't have close buttons or use non-standard Windows.
 
somehow I hope the next operation system and hard drive better than SSD will become like reading a book, I am tired of the "LOADING", I want to instantly open up programs, videos, games without LOADING it. You click and you in, like surfing a page. When will that happen.
 
heatlesssun said:
Pretty odd, Windows Phones are generally rock solid, I think I've had to reboot mine maybe 3 times in the last 15 months.
Click to expand...

Can't say that was my experience at all, and I had numerous Windows between 2006 and 2010 until I got an Android. I also had Palms (daddy, what's a Treo?), BB's, iPhones, and Androids and the MS phones were never the leader in reliability. I'm also slightly compulsive when it comes to my gadgets and am constantly fiddling around FWIW.

Now I'm going to start playing around with Windows 8 so I can join the OG discussion.
 
zomby said:
somehow I hope the next operation system and hard drive better than SSD will become like reading a book, I am tired of the "LOADING", I want to instantly open up programs, videos, games without LOADING it. You click and you in, like surfing a page. When will that happen.
Click to expand...

I doubt that will ever happen on a Windows machine, by design it encourages programs to store data all over the place, in the registry, by referencing numerous DLLs, etc. Maybe when chip-based memory is feasible but even then I'm sure the programs and OS will be more complex and there will always be a small delay as any program loads.
 
Azhar said:
Sorry I'm going to have to stop you there. I pointed one very glaring example: removing the red "x" closing button. You can't sit there and tell us we don't close programs that often to justify the need for a closing button.
Click to expand...

Desktop apps - no change
Metro apps - click and drag down

They will have to make that obvious to the average user though, it isn't exactly a standard for closing apps when most devices with apps have always had a home button of some sort. Sure the Windows button functions as a home button would, but as someone else said most users don't seem to understand the Windows key, which is an absolutely huge productivity increaser, but the idiots are just too lazy to learn something new even if it does save time. I still can't believe how many people don't even use the simiplest shortcuts like CTRL-C/V or Win-L.
 
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