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Windows 10 and scaling?

I was planning on googling around for impressions once it'd been out for a few weeks, as I wouldn't dream of bothering with 28" 4K unless W10 has dramatically improved its scaling. The amount of font nastiness and outright broken UI elements I've seen on Windows 8 4K pairings shows the work ahead.
 
It scales about the same as 8.1, I've noticed no differences.
The only downside (at the moment) is that the new Start menu doesn't scale with the rest of the OS.
 
ChronoDog said:
It scales about the same as 8.1, I've noticed no differences.
The only downside (at the moment) is that the new Start menu doesn't scale with the rest of the OS.
Click to expand...

'The only downside.'

Are you saying that 8.1 scales correctly, including programs like adobe acrobat, photoshop, gimp?
 
icor1031 said:
'The only downside.'

Are you saying that 8.1 scales correctly, including programs like adobe acrobat, photoshop, gimp?
Click to expand...

Adobe's crapware will probably scale correctly when everyone has high dpi displays. Until then they probably won't bother doing anything about it. They use a completely custom UI and their UI developers are largely incompetent based on all the UI issues their applications have.

Does GIMP run on top of GTK on Windows? Might be a case of GTK not supporting scaling.
 
icor1031 said:
'The only downside.'

Are you saying that 8.1 scales correctly, including programs like adobe acrobat, photoshop, gimp?
Click to expand...

I saw absolutely nothing in their response that implied anything even remotely resembling this.

The HiDPI mess with Windows 3rd party apps isn't going away and the vast majority of paid apps that are messed up now will remain messed up for the long term, and likely only get resolved in far-future paid updates. Free apps, well, depending on how actively maintained they are...
 
so if that mess will stay .. why not simply get normal dpi screens with NO scaling problems at all? For 4K it means 40-50"+. NOT those 24-28-31.5".
 
icor1031 said:
'The only downside.'

Are you saying that 8.1 scales correctly, including programs like adobe acrobat, photoshop, gimp?
Click to expand...

No OS can fix the scaling of 3rd party software. That is all on the developers of said software. If software isn't DPI aware and doesn't scale its interface, all the OS can do is upsample the pixels, which is what Windows already will do.

You have to remember the OS doesn't draw things in a program, the program itself does that. All the OS can do is say "This is the monitor DPI, draw for that." If the program is not DPI aware and doesn't know how to do scaling, the OS has only two options:

1) Leave the program as is, making it smaller.

2) Take the final rendered output and upscale it, which makes it larger but makes it look low rez/blurry since it came form a low rez source.

That's it. There's no magic juju. The programs themselves must be DPI aware, and that is 100% on the developers.
 
Sycraft said:
No OS can fix the scaling of 3rd party software. That is all on the developers of said software. If software isn't DPI aware and doesn't scale its interface, all the OS can do is upsample the pixels, which is what Windows already will do.

You have to remember the OS doesn't draw things in a program, the program itself does that. All the OS can do is say "This is the monitor DPI, draw for that." If the program is not DPI aware and doesn't know how to do scaling, the OS has only two options:

1) Leave the program as is, making it smaller.

2) Take the final rendered output and upscale it, which makes it larger but makes it look low rez/blurry since it came form a low rez source.

That's it. There's no magic juju. The programs themselves must be DPI aware, and that is 100% on the developers.
Click to expand...


But, is it blurry if you do doubling? (3840x2160 becomes 1920x1080, now one pixel becomes a four pixel square.)
 
Last edited:
Church said:
so if that mess will stay .. why not simply get normal dpi screens with NO scaling problems at all? For 4K it means 40-50"+. NOT those 24-28-31.5".
Click to expand...
Because "4K" is nifty marketing and well Apple can do HiDPI and they don't seem to have any problems and we need something to compete with Retina so hey let's just jam as many pixels as possible in and .. test..? haha no way SHIP IT.

In the few cases where HiDPI actually 'works' with the app it can look really good. Modern apps (the Win8 apps) are all DPI-aware and work fine in HiDPI, they look clear and crisp and nice. Some desktop apps are 'ok' at HiDPI, like IE, Firefox, Chrome kinda, and Office 2013.. When it works it works. It just rarely works.
 
Apple is more daring in enforcing something in their OS unlike MS, which cares more about compatibility. So Apple can not just provide hidpi scaling facilities/api-s, but also can enforce their use. I count myself as average joe using normal windows, i also often enjoy running older classic games. Thus to not "enjoy" any scaling problems i have decided that when i'll go 4K, screen will be with DPI i'm used to. As free "bonus" i'll also enjoy big screen size, that otherwise would feel with too ugly big pixels when used as in some big TVs of just FullHD resolution. And again - with such approach there will be no problems with old apps/games, no matter if they will or won't be ever updated, no matter how good high dpi support in OS there will be or won't. 50" will be just like 4 24" FHD monitors most of us find acceptable DPI wise. Not like on those 24" UHD monitors that seems like wasted money to me.
 
Well, most GNU/Linux applications use GTK+ and Qt as GUI toolkits. Both toolkits already have support for HiDPI displays or will have before the end of this year in their latest versions (GTK+ 3 and Qt 5.4). And mostly it is a matter of compile and link against the new versions of the toolkits as they have kept very compatible.

And there is even more. New window servers and protocols like Wayland support different DPI, scaling windows while dragging a window from a display with lower DPI to a display with higher DPI and viceversa.
 
I still don't get why there isn't a utility that can get windows to render an app into a 2D surface, then upscale that bitmap into a window at whatever DPI you like?

EDIT: With the requisite windows events coordinates (like mouse and touch) being converted back and forth as needed.
 
Rectal Prolapse said:
I still don't get why there isn't a utility that can get windows to render an app into a 2D surface, then upscale that bitmap into a window at whatever DPI you like?
Click to expand...

Build it and they will come.

Rectal Prolapse said:
With the requisite windows events coordinates (like mouse and touch) being converted back and forth as needed.
Click to expand...

This is non-trivial, especially since Windows has different APIs you can use for input that work in different ways. In order for MS to ship a product that does this, it has to work flawlessly with all of them.
 
Right now the only equivalent is running a particular remote desktop application (I forgot what it was called - Remote Desktop Manager?) - it would actually scale the remote PC's display to fit the window!

EDIT: I found it - checked my archives and it is called Remote Desktop Connection Manager: http://www.codeulike.com/2014/05/remote-desktop-on-high-dpi-screens.html

It does require having a particular desktop scaling setup. Damn I can't remember what it was exactly, but I did get it working!
 
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