WinDAS White Point Balance guide for Sony Trinitron CRTs

jka

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Where's that? I used the + or - buttons, and sometimes it was a pain in the ass to get to an specific value. What monitor were you tuning?

Mitsubishi 2070SB, which is what I think you have as well?

AFAIK it works at least in FACTORY 1, FACTORY 2 or FACTORY 3 screens, not sure about others.

The workflow is like this:

You highlight (or rather "navigate to") some value, lets say BTCEN. Now you would normally press MINUS or PLUS and the value would change in a small increment (from AB to AD for example) and the OSD would completely hide. If you wanted to do another increment (from AD to AF for example) you would need to go back and do it again and repeat ad nauseam. Now the "trick" is to instead of PRESSING the button (minus or plus) you would HOLD it, for a rather long time. While holding it, the value will keep changing (albeit slowly) and the OSD will be hidden at the same time.

To give you an idea, going from 00 to FF could take maybe even a minute of holding the minus or plus button, the values change rather slowly.

You could even stop holding it, admire the result for a moment and then simply hold MINUS or PLUS again and it will start changing again without the need to pull up the OSD again.

To try it, simply navigate over BTCEN and then start holding PLUS button for at least 20 seconds and you will see the screen brightness changing during which the OSD remains hidden so it doesnt mess with your colorimeter readings.

Hope it is more clear now.

By the way, 2070SB has 2 holes on the left side, bottom area. These holes are access for HOR and VERT sharpness pots. You will need a very long and rather thin insulated flat-head screwdriver to get in there, and you will need to educate yourself on the safety when working around of upto I think 30kV (I am not the best person to give advice) as the monitor will be powered on.
 

spacediver

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Perfect, thank you for a quick help!

Looking at the setup graphic, I am assuming I can technically perform the WinDAS part on the main PC, just not recommended, right? I would still use a second computer for the colorimeter bit of course. Would just need to alt+tab often and wait for the readings to settle. I would honestly rather do that than having to try and setup WinDAS on a second PC again. Ironically enough, I couldnt get WinDAS to work under Windows 98SE originally because the adapter I got only had drivers for XP and up. Eventually I did manage to set it up on my main PC (Win 8.1), which was a pleasant surprise.

I am mainly asking in case there is some issue where WinDAS and all the other mentioned tools, where they all need to be installed on the same machine in order to achieve something that I have yet to find out about/understand?

Yes, it's more for convenience :)
 

Blutrache

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Mitsubishi 2070SB, which is what I think you have as well?
Mine is the lacie rebrand (22blueIV), the tube and electronics should be the same, but the housing is different (and it doesn't have access to the focus&g2 pots from the outside, you need to take out the cover in order to get to them).

I'm not sure if there are also differences in the software, because I've tested right now the btcen value and holding the buttons doesn't slow down at all, it's pretty damn fast. It takes 25 seconds to go from 004 (the min value) to 770 (my max, that's set by the btmax). All of this with the osd hidden, actually I couldn't change any of those values without hiding the osd.
When I said the setup was not ideal it was mainly because I'm only using 1 screen, all the calibration was done via de color box of the hcfr, but you always end up with some brightness "polution" from the rest of the screen. And even if the osd hides temporarily to take note of the value you have to pop it back (and it's pretty huge, I used the lower positions and it was still really close to the center of the screen where the colorimeter was).
 
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jka

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Few more #diamondtron questions (let me know if we should get a room, teehe)

1) Any idea what BTMAX exactly does?

2) Is SCREEN VR pot the same thing as BTCEN where BTCEN is a more fine-grain control of the very same thing?

I was unable to get 3cd with the following:

BIAS: 000,08A,000
GAIN: 000,08A,000

I barely got any reading and blasting BTMAX to 0EE or so resulted only in 2cd. But 0EE is a bit high compared to default around 770-800.

Blutrache, your procedure did not mention at what levels the GAIN controls should be set at the start (so I used what you see above).

---

Btw regarding the dispcalc command showing USB error, I had the same thing, try removing "-J" and first run the instrument calibration solo with:

dispcalc -J

then do the other super long command where you can ommit the -J bit. Also, try re-plugging USB cable and not use USB hub.
 

Enhanced Interrogator

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Mine is the lacie rebrand (22blueIV), the tube and electronics should be the same, but the housing is different (and it doesn't have access to the focus&g2 pots from the outside, you need to take out the cover in order to get to them).

I'm not sure if there are also differences in the software, because I've tested right now the btcen value and holding the buttons doesn't slow down at all, it's pretty damn fast. It takes 25 seconds to go from 004 (the min value) to 770 (my max, that's set by the btmax). All of this with the osd hidden, actually I couldn't change any of those values without hiding the osd.
When I said the setup was not ideal it was mainly because I'm only using 1 screen, all the calibration was done via de color box of the hcfr, but you always end up with some brightness "polution" from the rest of the screen. And even if the osd hides temporarily to take note of the value you have to pop it back (and it's pretty huge, I used the lower positions and it was still really close to the center of the screen where the colorimeter was).

Do you think I could get a copy of the LaCie service manual from you? I have the same monitor and I'd like to calibrate it one day. Can you actually use WinDAS with it or are you just using the monitor's service mode?
 

Blutrache

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Do you think I could get a copy of the LaCie service manual from you? I have the same monitor and I'd like to calibrate it one day. Can you actually use WinDAS with it or are you just using the monitor's service mode?
I used the mitsubishi service manual, I don't know if Lacie made one, but considering how hard it's to find even the most basic stuff, I wouldn't look for it. Here is the one I used
https://hardforum.com/attachments/diamond-pro-2070sb-nec-multisync-fp2141sb-pdf.13670/
Windas is not needed (nor avaiable, that's for trinitons), service menu is all you need.
2) Is SCREEN VR pot the same thing as BTCEN where BTCEN is a more fine-grain control of the very same thing?
Both tweak the gain&brightness of the display, I have absolutely no idea but If I have to guess, the g2 pot is the main tweaking factor and the btcen value is used to ajdust the brightness to get really to close to the calibration point. In the next weekend I will try two things, first reduce dratically the g2 pot and try to compensate the image with btcen, bias and gain values and then do the opposite, turn down the software values and use the pot, I will need to adjust them anyways, but with the idea to keep them as low as possible.

1) Any idea what BTMAX exactly does?
btmax it's the limit of the btcen value, the brightness you measure at 100% is defined by that value.

I was unable to get 3cd with the following:

BIAS: 000,08A,000
GAIN: 000,08A,000
The 3cd it's for the btmax value, and that is once you have "filled" the blue and red guns, otherwise yeah, it's impossible to reach.

Blutrache, your procedure did not mention at what levels the GAIN controls should be set at the start (so I used what you see above).
I don't remember exactly if I had the green gain at 08A or at 000, all the info that I got is based on the service manual, at page 45 it starts the calibration procedure.
The user Strat_84 knows much more than me, so ask him to be sure about those values.
 
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jka

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Thanks for reply. My findings about SCREEN VR/BTCEN/BTMAX were the same. Although I did not open up the case to change SCREEN VR because there was no need. I am pretty positive that you did not change gains to zero because you would not get any picture I think where I would be very nervous because if you navigated away from the menu, how would you get the values back? So 000 is too low for gains and 0FF brutally overdrives the picture so I think the gains should be set at 000,07F,000 at the start, or similar.

I got to this little side project couple days ago where I have obtained a NEC version (FP2141SB) of the same diamondtron. It was in a horrible horrible shape (absolute contrary to what the previous owner said - "perfect picture, the best, blah blah..."), upon turning it on the picture was almost invisible, very dark, and all red. After a few minutes it always shut down randomly. After maybe half an hour it started to develop a loud buzzing inside and the buzzing was also heard from the wall power socket. After a few more minutes the power socket died lol. Maybe a fuse? I am no electrician though. It was like taming a beast. I was hooked.

After a few minutes I plug it into another socket and start looking for what could be wrong again. I notice that the monitor is already in FACTORY MODE (think of it like what WinDAS would look like if it was OSD without procedures = options galore, similar to Expert Viewer). This means the previous owner must have read the service manual and tried to fix his G2 probably but instead totally fucked everything up. Even the OSD posiiton was 80% outside of the view (couldnt manage that even if I wanted lol). That I "fixed" by a combination of button presses of switching between INPUT 1 and 2, after maybe 10 tries it would randomly finally pop into center of the screen.

Not only that, the actual FACTORY MODE that was on had a software bug which I have not seen before on my other 2070SB. The bug meant that if you tried to exit the FACTORY MODE by changing some address number it displayed a blank OSD screen instead so you could not input the exit number (10). So I tried all sorts of button presses to not get this bug to no avail. Then it occurred to me! Instead of trying to exit the FACTORY MODE, I could try entering a new one. So after a power cycle and holding EXIT button while powering on, a new FACTORY MODE popped up, now without that annoying bug.

The previous owner did not just access FACTORY MODE, he accessed the FACTORY "HV" MODE which allows you to change even more, high-voltage related things, all marked in red with a word CAUTION. This is where the power failures started to happen as I found out. Whenever I was browsing the red HV options, the monitor would shut itself after a few seconds. So I took out my notes from my other 2070SB and wrote down all the factory default settings for these HV options. Then I quickly browsed through the HV options again before another shut down and noticed that one of the values which should be 0B4 was set to 000. So after another power boot I quickly navigated to this value and changed it (I had like 5 seconds to do that). Immediately after changing that value to a default one it did not shut down and all was good.

So now the monitor is operating properly but the picture is still horrible. Your WPB procedure was of great help but I had to make some changes to it because I was not getting the same output as you.

Here are some rules of thumb on how to calibrate a diamondtron (not a procedure, rather what you should be aiming towards). You will need a colorimeter and you(most probably) dont need to change SCREEN VR by taking it apart.

- Do not ever change gains to close zero values, you will lose picture completely (including OSD)

- Fullwhite pattern should be 100cd.

- ABL should be set in a way that you get 100cd or max 115cd on full-white pattern. Default ABL is around 07D btw which resulted in 100cd for me but service manual says it should be 115cd so why not.

- Fullgreen pattern should be 77cd as noted in service manual. The biggest factor in this is the GGainH value and a little also the GBiasH 07F value. On my FW900 I am getting 72 after WPB so this seems to be in line with some standards. The Diamondtrons are generally a little brighter than Trinitrons. My FW900 fullwhite is cca 105cd for example.

- Measure 9300K target (x=0.283, y=0.298) across different grey and white patterns. Setup HCFR etc just like in spacedivers WPB guide. Bias controls mixes color for darker greys and Gain controls mixes colors for whites.

- Do not overdrive the values. If you do, the picture will look more contrast-y in some cases but it will look horrible in terms of proper color balance, a lot of detail will be lost. Basically these x-Tron monitors are made to be calibrated to reach specific targets and not more or less, they need to be spot-on to get the "best" OVERALL picture.

- Adjust BTCEN like you would set G2 in WinDas. If you use your monitor in varying light conditions then set it a bit lower than "perfect". Then compensate this with BTMAX a little higher so the black pattern looks like dark grey. This will later allow you to change G2 (BTCEN) on-the-fly in user OSD by adjusting the "Brightness" value to fit current lightning conditions in your room.

Start your calibration with the following values:

User OSD:
Brightness = 50%
Contrast = 100%

FACTORY 3:

RBiasH 000
GBiasH 07F
BBiasH 000

RBiasM 000
GBiasM 07F
BBiasM 000

RBiasL 000
GBiasL 07F
BBiasL 000

RGainH 000
GGainH 07F
BGainH 000

RGainH 000
GGainH 07F
BGainH 000

RGainH 000
GGainH 07F
BGainH 000

BTCEN 5E0
BTMAX 700
ABL 07D

The above is all the important values that you need to change really. Not as complex as WinDAS.

I suggest leaving 6500K and 5000K (M and L) values in the green ones above and not change them at all, unless you plan on using them. The above values are conservative which means that if you will for example experiment with high BTMAX or ABL values and then "hover" over rather larger color values then you screen will shut off or worse. So I really recommend only messing with 9300K (H) unless you have a steady hand or will not mess around with overly high values.

In my testing my eyes were unable to tell the different between low and high BIAS values. Basically, if you had high BIAS values, you had to lower BTCEN and vice versa. I am not sure if the BIAS values are even meant to do something else other than mix the color ratio of the RGB guns. I think you just set a black cut-off point with BTCEN and then adjust the BIAS values to get 9300K in dark greys.

On the other hand, the GAIN values absolutely affect the drive of the picture. Higher gains means the picture will "pop" more. But if you set it too high, the picture will smear around white areas and/or will be limited by your ABL. The most important and easiest thing when determining proper gain values is to set Ggain so it displays 77cd on fullgreen pattern, then adjust Rgain and Bgain to match 9300K target on fullwhite pattern, then repeat until perfect 9300K target and 77cd is achieved. You might also need to repeat this with setting BIAS so you can get consistent 9300K tracking throughout all greyscale.

Top it all off with dispcal calibration to fix the crushed blacks and uneven gamma. If you dont want that you need to set the black level (BTCEN/BTMAX) a lot higher to bring out the details in shadows. This will result in your CRT never displaying a black color, it will always be dark grey. Upto you.

The final picture now looks the same or even a little better than on my FW900 after WPB. It might not be as convenient as WinDAS with all the hand holding, but you are only changing 9 values so you will get a hang of it pretty quickly. I am now measuring very close to 9300K in both white and greys (good enough for my eyes). Really happy with the result considering the state it was when I brought it in. I am sure there is still a room for improvement though, as always. For example the hard to measure near black 9300K target comes to mind.

One more thing, I have noticed a strange phenomenon that I have not seen on FW900. Depending on my ABL settings, I was getting 100cd on fullwhite pattern but if I zoomed out in IrfanView to get the pattern pretty small I was getting cca 115cd. If I do the same on FW900 I am still getting 100cd no matter how big the pattern is. This might be why the Diamondtrons are said to be brighter? Maybe their ABL tech is more refined? This is slightly apparent on images that are mid-grey (such as green nature wallpapers) that they appear to have more "pop" to them than FW900. But not by much. Fullwhite is the same on both (cca 100cd).
 

jka

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To be fair, I am now getting 115cd on fullwhite on 4:3 resolutions on FW900. The 100cd I was getting was with 16:10 on FW900. So they are probably more equal than I thought, its just that FW900 has larger 16:10 area so it is dimmer thanks to that alone, probably. They werent able to bring it to the same brightness level of 4:3 area, maybe due to some manufacturing reasons.
 

christpunchers

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I have a question about step 46 (cutoff max) of the Windas WPB procedures. Are we supposed to use an all black image for that part or the all white image? It wasn’t very clear in the guide.
 

ogg1e

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Does anyone know if this is usable on the sony ssm series? The ssm-20n1u to be specific?
 

christpunchers

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I've done WPB calibration a few dozen times over the years following this guide. We all owe spacediver a great deal for putting up this guide.

It seems like the gamma is set higher (2.4+) using this guide.

I was wondering is there a way to use the colormeter to precisely get the gamma to 2.4 during the WinDAS WPB procedures?

I wish for the monitor, without using any additional tweaks or software beyond WinDAS, to be at 2.2 gamma, if that makes sense. Thanks!
 
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spacediver

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If you want to calibrate for ~2.2 gamma, then use the 16 bar grayscale pattern that is included in the package (I'm reuploading it here), and adjust G2 until the second bar is a bit brighter than the first bar. That might do the trick, let us know.

Also see this thread.

With some experience, you'll probably be able to adjust G2 until you get the desired gamma, but keep in mind that black levels won't be super inky (which is fine for many ppl).
 

christpunchers

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If you want to calibrate for ~2.2 gamma, then use the 16 bar grayscale pattern that is included in the package (I'm reuploading it here), and adjust G2 until the second bar is a bit brighter than the first bar. That might do the trick, let us know.

Also see this thread.

With some experience, you'll probably be able to adjust G2 until you get the desired gamma, but keep in mind that black levels won't be super inky (which is fine for many ppl).
Thanks for the instructions, spacediver. I will give that a try later on.

I want to ask about the WinDAS step that comes right after G2 (where the screen is green): I think a higher setting on this step actually make the black less black. Am I suppose to use the same 16 bars pattern for this step (the one that comes after G2)? What would be the correct way to go about selecting the right value for this step, if say, I’m looking for a lower gamma ie 2.2? Thanks a lot in advance!
 

spacediver

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Never fully understood why they have a separate step, but to keep things simple, I'd use the same procedure for both steps. If you discover anything interesting involving these two steps, let us know. I've never experimented with doing the two steps differently.
 

XoR_

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If you want to calibrate for ~2.2 gamma, then use the 16 bar grayscale pattern that is included in the package (I'm reuploading it here), and adjust G2 until the second bar is a bit brighter than the first bar. That might do the trick, let us know.

Also see this thread.

With some experience, you'll probably be able to adjust G2 until you get the desired gamma, but keep in mind that black levels won't be super inky (which is fine for many ppl).
Setting gamma this way to ~2.2 will decimate contrast ratio. It not being super inky is complete understatement....
 

Meeho

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Setting gamma this way to ~2.2 will decimate contrast ratio. It not being super inky is complete understatement....
You haven't tried it with WPB, though, right? I would guess they've set the procedure to give the best PQ with a 2.2 target.
 

spacediver

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Setting gamma this way to ~2.2 will decimate contrast ratio. It not being super inky is complete understatement....

Still a good image. I believe many film studios using CRTs didn't calibrate their blacks super inky (though likely because doing so raised the gamma).

I notice in theatres that black levels aren't that deep either.

btw, you should really try a proper WPB some day, and watch some well mastered material. It's quite a sight.
 

XoR_

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You haven't tried it with WPB, though, right? I would guess they've set the procedure to give the best PQ with a 2.2 target.
Gamma of CRT is fixed and there is no good way to correct it through analog electronics alone and that is why CRTs do not have such circuit in them. Maybe some professional do but consumer ones definitely do not.
And WPB does nothing. All you can do to get 2.2 is to increase black level until you get average 2.2 gamma. Pretty terrible method no matter how you do it...

Only proper way to change gamma on CRT is doing it on image generator side (usually GPU)

Still a good image.
This statement is so hilarious coming from someone who complain on LCD contrast ratio :ROFLMAO:

From what I remember to get 2.2 gamma contrast must be brought down to levels worse than even first gen IPS panels...

I believe many film studios using CRTs didn't calibrate their blacks super inky (though likely because doing so raised the gamma).
When using CRT normally black cannot be calibrated to 'super inky' levels.
Standards call for 2.4 gamma which is restrictive for black-level if used without any LUT correction. Such setting will give relatively good gamma shape.

Trying to get 2.2 is pointless as no 'video consumption' standard calls for it. Rec. 709 is 2.4

I notice in theatres that black levels aren't that deep either.
Yup, even LCD panels have better black than most theaters. It is always disappointing when I am at cinema... though it is uniform so it goes from my mind few minutes in the movie. In good LCD I almost never notice black.
Hint: you see black on LCD if it is not uniform and have wrong color eg. is blueish -> most LCDs. When black is uniform without any off-angle differences and have perfect D65 black point it is barely perceivable.

btw, you should really try a proper WPB some day, and watch some well mastered material. It's quite a sight.
What you expect to happen after I do WPB? :confused:

CRT will measure the same as before and I will still claim HP LP2480zx to have superior image quality. That will happen.
 

spacediver

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Do you realize you come across as rather rude on these forums? It's not pleasant communicating with you.

Briefly, the gamma 2.4 issue is more messy than you think. There is a history of different studios not actually sticking to standards, including Rec 709 when it comes to gamma. CRT calibration for black level and gamma has been notoriously inconsistent over the years (for example, G2 levels were often set psychophysically rather than with the use of an external measuring instrument).

Do you have a colorimeter, or do you calibrate by eye?
 

XoR_

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Do you realize you come across as rather rude on these forums? It's not pleasant communicating with you.

Briefly, the gamma 2.4 issue is more messy than you think. There is a history of different studios not actually sticking to standards, including Rec 709 when it comes to gamma. CRT calibration for black level and gamma has been notoriously inconsistent over the years (for example, G2 levels were often set psychophysically rather than with the use of an external measuring instrument).

Do you have a colorimeter, or do you calibrate by eye?
Reasoning behind gamma 2.2 is 'psychopsyhical' and at home 2.4 is recommended for content consumption (especially since all videos are Rec. 709 not sRGB) and 2.2 for content creation.

I have three colorimeters, Spyder3, i1 Display 2 (HP) and i1 Display Pro (HP)

I will do measurements and if monitor measure better after it then I will say it.
Unlike apparently you I myself am not interested in proving my point as much as ground truth.
This is simply just too good opportunity to force you guys to say silly things to pass it up. You do realize that and in effect see me as rude. Well, this is 'trolling' so... at least this is clever trolling... well, at least I think it is kinda clever and in reality it probably is not :dead:
 

jbltecnicspro

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Do you realize you come across as rather rude on these forums? It's not pleasant communicating with you.

Hear, hear! Anytime I see his user handle I brace a little for impact, if you know what I mean. Honestly, what's the point?

XoR said:
Well, this is 'trolling' so... at least this is clever trolling... well, at least I think it is kinda clever and in reality it probably is not :dead:

So your response is that you're simply trolling? I don't understand.
 

spacediver

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Reasoning behind gamma 2.2 is 'psychopsyhical' and at home 2.4 is recommended for content consumption (especially since all videos are Rec. 709 not sRGB) and 2.2 for content creation.

Psychophysical means that the technician adjusted G2 by looking at a reference patch and adjusting until the adjacent patch is just distinguishable. This creates an amount of variation between technicians, since everyone's contrast sensitivity is different (and it changes with age). Also, people's internal definition of what constitutes "just distinguishable" may vary. Psychophysics more generally refers to a field of experimental psychology where you use carefully created stimuli to an observer, and have them make decisions, or adjust things until a certain criterion is met (e.g. adjust patch until it matches refernce patch, or choose which stimulus is brighter, etc.).

I have three colorimeters, Spyder3, i1 Display 2 (HP) and i1 Display Pro (HP)

Is there a reason you haven't done a WPB given that you have the hardware? Do you have the USB - TTL cable? Aren't you even curious to see if the difference is noticeable to you compared to your regular method of calibration?
 

XoR_

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So your response is that you're simply trolling? I don't understand.
I ask questions before I do it and answers I get do not convince me it is worth it.
Give me one parameters in WinDAS except G2 that does anything worthwhile? And reason why not change it manually?
All you people do here is throw word 'optimal' a lot. Optimal and automated factory process... yeah, sure, factory calibration is known for accuracy and general awesomeness XD

Is there a reason you haven't done a WPB given that you have the hardware? Do you have the USB - TTL cable? Aren't you even curious to see if the difference is noticeable to you compared to your regular method of calibration?
Is there a reason why I should do it if my units do not seem to need it?

You have provided no reason for me to do it. If you state something like "it reduces effect of rising black level when there is something on screen" (this is what I complain in my CRT the most) then I would have reason to do it to test it, more specifically to find which values in WinDAS do this to see if it can be improved further.

You only said it does something 'optimal' and it increases longevity - carefully crafted 'facts' which are completely untestable and witch which I can do nothing at all with, cannot with any amount of measurement and testing prove them or disprove them... So what is the point? XD

BTW. I have TTL cable sticking out of my back of my Dell P1110 and means to connect to it and use WinDAS.
 

jbltecnicspro

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I ask questions before I do it and answers I get do not convince me it is worth it.
Give me one parameters in WinDAS except G2 that does anything worthwhile? And reason why not change it manually?
All you people do here is throw word 'optimal' a lot. Optimal and automated factory process... yeah, sure, factory calibration is known for accuracy and general awesomeness XD


Is there a reason why I should do it if my units do not seem to need it?

You have provided no reason for me to do it. If you state something like "it reduces effect of rising black level when there is something on screen" (this is what I complain in my CRT the most) then I would have reason to do it to test it, more specifically to find which values in WinDAS do this to see if it can be improved further.

You only said it does something 'optimal' and it increases longevity - carefully crafted 'facts' which are completely untestable and witch which I can do nothing at all with, cannot with any amount of measurement and testing prove them or disprove them... So what is the point? XD

BTW. I have TTL cable sticking out of my back of my Dell P1110 and means to connect to it and use WinDAS.

So there's not only G2, but there's also the maximum drive levels too, and I think another one that's inaccessible via user menus. Honestly, you've read enough of this thread + the FW900 thread to know that there are tangible benefits. As for thinking that your units don't need an adjustment - well, I guess the proof is in the measurements. Here's a quick litmus test:

Display a full white field on your FW900 in Prime Mode (1920x1200 85Hz). It needs to be 100 IRE. Set your CONTRAST to 90 and BRIGHT to 31. Measure your luminance. If it's above 105 cd/m2, then you're definitely out of spec. I think that after a full WPB procedure, 90 CONTRAST and 31 BRIGHT should produce 95 cd/m2 (+ or - a couple of cd/m2) with full white 100 IRE. I say that "I think" because it's been a while since I've done a FW-900, and I don't have one anymore. But for sure, over 105 at that setting means you're running too hot.

I don't know about your Dell. Shooting from the hip, I think that if you do the same as the above, except set BRIGHT to 50 and CONTRAST to 85 and it should measure 85 cd/m2. Someone else with one of those models will have to confirm that though. I don't have time to parse all of the messages in the source files (I've done it before - pretty interesting read :D).

EDIT: You may think you don't need an adjustment And heck - you may not. But for the most part, our eyes are NOT good measuring tools. Again, I'm sure you already know this.
 

spacediver

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Tube health aside, my sense is that the WPB allows you to adjust the white point at multiple drive levels - which means once you're done, your tube is probably more accurate than if you were to use bias and gain alone through OSD.

And the closer your tube is to spec, the less you need to adjust using LUT, which is always better.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Messages
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Tube health aside, my sense is that the WPB allows you to adjust the white point at multiple drive levels - which means once you're done, your tube is probably more accurate than if you were to use bias and gain alone through OSD.

And the closer your tube is to spec, the less you need to adjust using LUT, which is always better.

Well said. WPB is more comprehensive in adjustment than simple BIAS/GAIN settings.
 

jbltecnicspro

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And as I said before... It's been a while since I last touched my old FW-900, but I remember hitting 10,000:1 contrast and still having it track a very linear 2.2 gamma. And this was after doing WPB with only the monitor set to its default 6500K setting (no BIAS/GAIN adjustment on my end - I used the EASY mode and not the EXPERT mode).

EDIT: Typing this out makes me miss that old beast. :(
 

spacediver

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And that's without LUT adjustment right? Been a while since I played around with this stuff, but ~0.01 nits isn't sloppy on the black end, and being able to achieve that out of the box without LUT tuning says something to be pretty happy about.
 

jbltecnicspro

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winDAS source files? What kind?

It's been a long time, but you can view some of the source files with Visual Studio. Maybe it's just the messages used by the program ("Adjust G2 to be visible the raster"), but I viewed them a while back using a now-older version of Visual Studio.

spacediver said:
And that's without LUT adjustment right? Been a while since I played around with this stuff, but ~0.01 nits isn't sloppy on the black end, and being able to achieve that out of the box without LUT tuning says something to be pretty happy about.

Yep, I've never used LUT's ever. :) I actually don't know what the black level was because my meter (DPT-94) can't go below 0.01 cd/m2.
 

spacediver

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It's been a long time, but you can view some of the source files with Visual Studio. Maybe it's just the messages used by the program ("Adjust G2 to be visible the raster"), but I viewed them a while back using a now-older version of Visual Studio.

I use visual studio 2015, so will try that, but I'm still confused about the source files. Does winDAS come with source files? There's a compiled executable, but I never reailzed there were source files. Does that mean you can alter the code and recompile it to change the way the software works?
 

jbltecnicspro

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I use visual studio 2015, so will try that, but I'm still confused about the source files. Does winDAS come with source files? There's a compiled executable, but I never reailzed there were source files. Does that mean you can alter the code and recompile it to change the way the software works?

You need to decompile the executable and then the real fun starts. :)
 

XoR_

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And as I said before... It's been a while since I last touched my old FW-900, but I remember hitting 10,000:1 contrast and still having it track a very linear 2.2 gamma. And this was after doing WPB with only the monitor set to its default 6500K setting (no BIAS/GAIN adjustment on my end - I used the EASY mode and not the EXPERT mode).
This sound pretty unlikely

BTW. 31/90 brightness/contrast for 105cd/m2 is some sort of proper setting to have? If yes then I believe my FW900 is currently being very close to being properly calibrated :cool:

Tube health aside, my sense is that the WPB allows you to adjust the white point at multiple drive levels - which means once you're done, your tube is probably more accurate than if you were to use bias and gain alone through OSD.

And the closer your tube is to spec, the less you need to adjust using LUT, which is always better.
What do you mean by 'multiple drive levels'? How does THAT work?
CRT gamma is result of only phosphor response and there is no gamma correction circuitry of any kind in there.
 

spacediver

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CRT gamma is absolutely not a result of phospor response. The gamma response is a result of the transfer characteristics of the triode itself, which itself will be modulated by G1, G2, etc.

The phosphor response is quite linear until the response starts to saturate.

And my point about adjusting the white point at multiple levels has nothing to do with gamma. White point is the chromaticity that results when the command level (0 - 255 in 8 bit) is equal across all three channels. When you perform a WPB in WinDAS, you calibrate at multiple IRE's, including peak white.
 

jbltecnicspro

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This sound pretty unlikely

See, this is what we're talking about. All I'm trying to do is inform you of my experience. Nothing more. And yet you're always antagonizing us and questioning us at every turn. Yes, this is what I measured. Get over it. My FW-900 is long gone, so I honestly don't care anymore. Why don't you just do the procedure and see for yourself?

BTW. 31/90 brightness/contrast for 105cd/m2 is some sort of proper setting to have? If yes then I believe my FW900 is currently being very close to being properly calibrated :cool:

Why do you then ask questions like this? If you don't believe my answer above, then why would you believe this one? I'll go ahead and answer it. Yes - when you're done with the WPB, WinDAS sets your BRIGHT/CONTRAST to 31/90. I have no idea why - it just does. With the CR1 monitors (F520, Artisan, and its siblings), it sets it to 50/85. Again, I don't know why the FW-900 and CR1 monitors are different. That's something you'll have to ask Sony if you're interested.

What do you mean by 'multiple drive levels'? How does THAT work?
CRT gamma is result of only phosphor response and there is no gamma correction circuitry of any kind in there.

Again, feel free to dismiss my post as a bunch of bullshit, but I don't think these monitors need gamma correction. He's right, with WPB, you adjust the WPB at more than two luminance ratings. I don't remember the specifics, but you DONT just adjust low end / high end with these things. While I agree that there isn't any gamma correction circuit built into these things, it's not out of the question that setting these units to spec wouldn't produce a specific gamma measurement. Gamma is simply a logarithmic function. Regardless of if a unit specifically corrects for it, if there are enough adjustments that can be made, then surely you can achieve a specific gamma curve without the need for gamma correction right?

My biggest question for you is - if you already have the equipment - why not just do the WPB for yourself? Instead of arguing with us about it back and forth about the theoretical, just yank the back off of that sucker and give it a go. :) At the very least you'll have some fun learning something, right?
 

XoR_

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My response in Python:
import users

# Define people
you = users.jbltecnicspro()
me = users.xor_()

# Define claims
your_claim = you.claim("Using WPB it is possible to get 10000:1 contrast ratio and linear gamma of 2.2")
my_claim = me.claim("Your claim is wrong")

# Do test or not
your_test_result = you.test(your_claim)

# Check if test was performed
if your_test_result is not None:
# Check test result
if your_test_result:
my_test_result = me.test(your_claim)
if my_test_result is not None:
if my_test_result:
me.confirm(your_claim)
me.ignore(my_claim)
me.believe(your_claim)
me.respect(you)
else:
me.ignore(your_claim)
me.confirm(my_claim)
me.believe(my_claim)
else:
me.disrespect(me)
else:
i.respect(you) # for providing test result despite being negative
# me.believe(my_claim) - TO DO: do my own tests, before believing anything
else:
i.ignore(your_claim)​
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,133
My response in Python:
import users

# Define people
you = users.jbltecnicspro()
me = users.xor_()

# Define claims
your_claim = you.claim("Using WPB it is possible to get 10000:1 contrast ratio and linear gamma of 2.2")
my_claim = me.claim("Your claim is wrong")

# Do test or not
your_test_result = you.test(your_claim)

# Check if test was performed
if your_test_result is not None:

# Check test result
if your_test_result:

my_test_result = me.test(your_claim)
if my_test_result is not None:

if my_test_result:
me.confirm(your_claim)
me.ignore(my_claim)
me.believe(your_claim)
me.respect(you)
else:
me.ignore(your_claim)
me.confirm(my_claim)
me.believe(my_claim)
else:
me.disrespect(me)
else:
i.respect(you) # for providing test result despite being negative
# me.believe(my_claim) - TO DO: do my own tests, before believing anything
else:
i.ignore(your_claim)
This is too nerdy even for a CRT thread in 2018.
 

spacediver

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Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
2,621
What do you mean by 'multiple drive levels'? How does THAT work?
CRT gamma is result of only phosphor response and there is no gamma correction circuitry of any kind in there.

CRT gamma is absolutely not a result of phospor response. The gamma response is a result of the transfer characteristics of the triode itself, which itself will be modulated by G1, G2, etc.

The phosphor response is quite linear until the response starts to saturate.

And my point about adjusting the white point at multiple levels has nothing to do with gamma. White point is the chromaticity that results when the command level (0 - 255 in 8 bit) is equal across all three channels. When you perform a WPB in WinDAS, you calibrate at multiple IRE's, including peak white.

So, no response to this, XoR? You made an incorrect claim about phosphors, I pointed this out, and you just ignore it.

Also, I trust you understand that LUT adjustment is not only for gamma correction, right?
 
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