Will this forum kill PPU sales?

[HOCP4ME]

Seriously, everyone is treating the PPU like it's a big joke. It's a real product with real potential, so why are we making fun of it?

 

[Firebat]

Who's treating it like a joke?

The thing is, The PPU has no "killer apps" out yet for it, so is kind of pointless thus far...

I doubt this forum will "kill the PPU sales". There are people outside of [H] you know....

 

[hungryduck]

becuase It doesn't offer any real performance/image quality value at all yet right now. It's pointless to have one.
It hurts performance in GRAW from what a few reviewers said.

 

[HOCP4ME]

Actually, when I said "treating it like a joke" I meant all of the stupid questions and joke threads about it.

I do think, however, that too many people are bashing it because it doesn't have it's "killer app" yet. Hardware always comes before software. Developers aren't going to make games that use something that no one has yet.

 

[Firebat]

I do think, however, that too many people are bashing it because it doesn't have it's "killer app" yet. Hardware always comes before software. Developers aren't going to make games that use something that no one has yet..

Well, How about the XBOX? As soon as the xbox was released it had a killer App. (Halo)

Actually, when I said "treating it like a joke" I meant all of the stupid questions and joke threads about it.

Oh, i missed the point. Sorry

 

[HOCP4ME]

Well, How about the XBOX? As soon as the xbox was released it had a killer App. (Halo)

That's a gaming console. It's different, because in the case of a console, developers know that everyone will have the same hardware and therefore will use it to it's full potential right away. With the PPU, developers don't want to make games that require it, since most people won't have it for at least a year from now.

Eventually, someone has to break hearts and create a killer app for the PPU. After that happens, more people will buy it, and we'll see a chain reaction as more people buy the PPU, causing more games to be developed for it, causing even more people to buy the PPU, and so on.

 

[freddiepm61]

we are all maing fun of the PPU because in the end PPU does sound kind of gay, and also all early adopters (however we must have them to drive innovation) will be royally screwed here, becuase it will be like early days of 3d, with lots of competing incompatible companies. if i had the cash i would get it now, but as I don't i will wait for 12 months by which time we will see whats what...
f

 

[hity645]

Honestly I don't see the need for one yet. Maybe in a couple years when I can't satisfy my need to see things blown up in high detail, but if I really wanted to do that I'd walk outside and blow something up to experience it first hand. PPU is new, most people have no idea what its for or what it can be used for. Until I see it first hand being used in ALL the games I play then I might consider it, and I think other people are the same way. There is no need right now.

 

[Pkirk618]

I don't know if this forum can hurt a sale but it is listened to--that we know by some of it's published comments in recent Q&A sessions.

That said, I have no interest at the moment in any PPU device whereas I was way more excited a month ago. Now I'll tell my friends how dissapointed I am "at the moment" and they'll tell their friends and then a measly comment made in this forum becomes something way different huh.

 

[Terra]

I'd say this forum will help generate attention about what gamers want out of an PPU.
Look at how the users here got quouted on the firringsquad article.
A little tell-tell sign to the game developers...

Terra...

 

[R1ckCa1n]

This forum will not kill PPU sales nor will it make me want to buy one. I will only want one when my current graphics card(s) can't run the resolution, HDR,AF,AA levels I require unless a PPU is present. Given GPU's are very CPU limited today I don't see how we will need one going forward.

 

[Terra]

This forum will not kill PPU sales nor will it make me want to buy one. I will only want one when my current graphics card(s) can't run the resolution, HDR,AF,AA levels I require unless a PPU is present. Given GPU's are very CPU limited today I don't see how we will need one going forward.

Then you will be msissing out on a few things.
Cell Factors...certain levels in UT7(according to Kyle).
Not even Quad-CPU's will be able to run cellfator...
So people with a single GFX and a PPU will game places your dual-GPU can go...even with no AA/HDR/AF...

Terra - PPU > SLI/Crossfire as FPS < not being able to play...

 

[ATIIsBetter]

.....Hardware always comes before software. Developers aren't going to make games that use something that no one has yet.

Released: 10/31/05
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/697/697302p1.html

 

[Terra]

That's a gaming console. It's different, because in the case of a console, developers know that everyone will have the same hardware and therefore will use it to it's full potential right away. With the PPU, developers don't want to make games that require it, since most people won't have it for at least a year from now.

Eventually, someone has to break hearts and create a killer app for the PPU. After that happens, more people will buy it, and we'll see a chain reaction as more people buy the PPU, causing more games to be developed for it, causing even more people to buy the PPU, and so on.

And now even the devolpers aere shellling out hard cash to get their own PhysX card and toy with.
This could be the very next big thing, when game-physics jumps of..and no one want to be left behind....especially not games...

Terra...

 

[Spewn]

And now even the devolpers aere shellling out hard cash to get their own PhysX card and toy with.
This could be the very next big thing, when game-physics jumps of..and no one want to be left behind....especially not games...

Terra...

You may be overestimating just how far there is to jump.

 

[Terra]

You may be overestimating just how far there is to jump.

And you might be underestiating the physics power in a PPU...
And what effects it will have on games.
GFX is only making stuff more pretty.
Physics is about adding "life" to the game enviroment.
Interaction, unforseen reactions...you name it.
A GFX changed nothing in gameplay, it just made things look more real.
Now we can't expect things to acting more real too.

Terra - I have never seen anything before that could transform gaming like the PPU...

 

[stealthy123]

ok the fact that games don't act like real life is a good thing to me, I don't want hyper realistic effects, I want to pretend I am not here for a few minutes. why do i want something hyper realistic when I get that all day every day

 

[DemonDiablo]

Well, How about the XBOX? As soon as the xbox was released it had a killer App. (Halo)

so you're suggesting that ageai make its own game? i got to say this is a bad example for trying to dissprove his point.

i think the negative and positive threads on these forum boards will do more to help ppu sells than to kill them by bringing light upon the strenghts and weaknessess of the card. many good points about the ppu have been brought up already.

 

[Spewn]

And you might be underestiating the physics power in a PPU...
And what effects it will have on games.
GFX is only making stuff more pretty.
Physics is about adding "life" to the game enviroment.
Interaction, unforseen reactions...you name it.
A GFX changed nothing in gameplay, it just made things look more real.
Now we can't expect things to acting more real too.

Terra - I have never seen anything before that could transform gaming like the PPU...

There's a difference. You can solve the physics problem by improving your processing methods. Nobody has yet determined *how* to produce a photorealistc rendernig from a computer, whether software generated or rendered real-time by a graphics card. Nothing even comes close except for the odd face shot(but those are, of course, rendered by software).

The thing about graphics is that development has to push new ways to do things, actually new things for the cards to do which previous generations were unable to. Even Aegia says that this won't be the case with their cards. They claim it's design, I say it sure is, but not theirs. The simple fact is that the only thing for Aegia to do is improve the number of equations it can handle simultaneously and how fast it can process them. There's no new forumulae to figure out to determine if a grenade bounces this way or that, or how much a bullet drops when fired 500m.

 

[Terra]

There's a difference. You can solve the physics problem by improving your processing methods. Nobody has yet determined *how* to produce a photorealistc rendernig from a computer, whether software generated or rendered real-time by a graphics card. Nothing even comes close except for the odd face shot(but those are, of course, rendered by software).

The thing about graphics is that development has to push new ways to do things, actually new things for the cards to do which previous generations were unable to. Even Aegia says that this won't be the case with their cards. They claim it's design, I say it sure is, but not theirs. The simple fact is that the only thing for Aegia to do is improve the number of equations it can handle simultaneously and how fast it can process them. There's no new forumulae to figure out to determine if a grenade bounces this way or that, or how much a bullet drops when fired 500m.

Nice spin, but not what I was talking about at all.
Look at the Cell Factor.
That is what I am talking about.
Find any MP game that resembles that?
It all about the gameplay...

Terra - And there is your answer...

 

[bildad]

The PPU will kill PPU sales. Right now it's just a joke. Nothing more than a gimick as proven by the cell factor tech demo. Poorly implemented and offers nothing more than flying boxes. How did we ever live without hundreds of flying boxes?

 

[Terra]

The PPU will kill PPU sales. Right now it's just a joke. Nothing more than a gimick as proven by the cell factor tech demo. Poorly implemented and offers nothing more than flying boxes. How did we ever live without hundreds of flying boxes?

How did we live without T&L?

Terra - People are so stuck in the present they can't think beyond current limitations...

 

[darkeen]

How did we live without T&L?

Terra - People are so stuck in the present they can't think beyond current limitations...

Your making a bit of a leap there. Hardware T&L was a feature implemented on a part that was already inside our computers. Thus there is a delay of implementation but a smooth one. PhysX adds yet another card our computers and with the price tag it holds it seems to be targeting the SLI/crossfire croud who seem to have no pci slots to spare.

 

[hity645]

ok the fact that games don't act like real life is a good thing to me, I don't want hyper realistic effects, I want to pretend I am not here for a few minutes. why do i want something hyper realistic when I get that all day every day

This brings to mind all the kids that already have a hard time figuring out whats a video game and whats real life. Gee lets help them by making their games more like real life.

 

[Terra]

Your making a bit of a leap there. Hardware T&L was a feature implemented on a part that was already inside our computers. Thus there is a delay of implementation but a smooth one. PhysX adds yet another card our computers and with the price tag it holds it seems to be targeting the SLI/crossfire croud who seem to have no pci slots to spare.

Really?
I don't have SLI and I'd rather have a PPU and GFX than dual card.
Physics is the new kid on the block.
Our graphicss got a well deserveed boost with GPU's.
Our Audio isn't softwarerendered either any more...mobo's come with onbaorad hardware sound, that can be upgraded to true gaming sound.
Why should we "clog" up our CPU's doing physics(at much lower rate than even quad , octa or hexa core) when we have the answer today?

If Cell Factor is something to jugde by(not even a game, just a techdemo), the impact on gameplay will be MUCH greater than GLQuake was it back in the time.

Terra...

 

[Terra]

This brings to mind all the kids that already have a hard time figuring out whats a video game and whats real life. Gee lets help them by making their games more like real life.

I could come with a long smear about the US laws, the society, parents not living up to their duty as parents ect.
But since this is [H]ard, I will talk in technical terms:

Why do you go back to software rendered graphics at 640x480 16bit, with software sound...
That way you won't "mistake" anything remotely as beeing real...

I hope not I am the only one to remember back when 3D cards came out..and NOT where the norm?

Terra - I heard same arguments back then, and they failed back then too...

 

[magoo]

There's no doubt that a PPU has promise. We are looking at a device that is so new no one yet can formulate a solid opinion,simply due to the fact that this isnt much to talk about.

GRAW has some neat little add ons. Truthfully, how many ways can you blow up a truck?
I "looked" at CellFactor over and over.....yes there are some neat effects, but I can only look at it....since I dont own one of these PPUs I really cant see and interact with the game and "appreciate" it for myself.

Lets be honest. One half-assed add on and a Demo are all we have to base a new piece of hardware and what it can contribute. I dont think its fair to judge yet. Just because one guy got some frame rate loss everybody runs and starts to bad mouth the thing.

We just have to wait and see what comes next. If this deal makes gaming more fun I'll be the first guy to SLI a PPU!!!! I very much enjoy gaming and leading edge stuff. If there was more to do with a PPU right now Id have one. I have a great SLI set-up and so do alot of people.....about 18 months ago look what people said about that. Look at the lousy press crossfire got.

This may be the next thing.....or not. We just have to wait and let it "cook" some more.
just 2 cents.

 

[Frosteh]

The best way of putting this is:

Do we all treat next gen video cards as "useless" and "pointless" and "not worth getting without a killer app"
Do we treat 64bit or hyper threading, or dual core the same way when nothing supports it?

How long did it take before we saw and real significant use of SM2.0 after the FX and 9000 range of video cards? How long for SM3.0 games after the 7000 range and X range of video cards.

The technology is new and maturing GIVE IT A CHANCE, the constant comments about how its not worth getting this very second is not doing anyone any favours

I don't think the forum will kill anything, I think the editorial will do some serious damange and I think the writers forget what kind of power they hold when they write editorials for such popular websites. Yes it was accurate (might I add bluntly accurate) and morraly thats all the writers care about, is backing up what they did as technically correctly.

I think it was overly harst and avoided mentioning any real growth of the hardware/software or any kind of acceptance that its new and needs a little time to get going.

Just really saw a writer throwing his toys out of his pram because some new hardware isn't fully ready yet.

 

[Terra]

There's no doubt that a PPU has promise. We are looking at a device that is so new no one yet can formulate a solid opinion,simply due to the fact that this isnt much to talk about.

GRAW has some neat little add ons. Truthfully, how many ways can you blow up a truck?
I "looked" at CellFactor over and over.....yes there are some neat effects, but I can only look at it....since I dont own one of these PPUs I really cant see and interact with the game and "appreciate" it for myself.

Lets be honest. One half-assed add on and a Demo are all we have to base a new piece of hardware and what it can contribute. I dont think its fair to judge yet. Just because one guy got some frame rate loss everybody runs and starts to bad mouth the thing.

We just have to wait and see what comes next. If this deal makes gaming more fun I'll be the first guy to SLI a PPU!!!! I very much enjoy gaming and leading edge stuff. If there was more to do with a PPU right now Id have one. I have a great SLI set-up and so do alot of people.....about 18 months ago look what people said about that. Look at the lousy press crossfire got.

This may be the next thing.....or not. We just have to wait and let it "cook" some more.
just 2 cents.

This is the next thing...
Look at all the interest.
Hell, even Havok statet throwing mud at AGIEA.
Out of fear.
Because AGEIA has something they don't...dedicated hardware.
And a little hint for you, if the hardware gets out it will be used.
That NVIDA and ATI also is ready to jump the bandwagon is yet another clue to how important physics will become.

Terra - Don't look at today, look at tomorrow...think outside the "box" (pun intended)

 

[Terra]

The best way of putting this is:

Do we all treat next gen video cards as "useless" and "pointless" and "not worth getting without a killer app"
Do we treat 64bit or hyper threading, or dual core the same way when nothing supports it?

How long did it take before we saw and real significant use of SM2.0 after the FX and 9000 range of video cards? How long for SM3.0 games after the 7000 range and X range of video cards.

The technology is new and maturing GIVE IT A CHANCE, the constant comments about how its not worth getting this very second is not doing anyone any favours

I don't think the forum will kill anything, I think the editorial will do some serious damange and I think the writers forget what kind of power they hold when they write editorials for such popular websites. Yes it was accurate (might I add bluntly accurate) and morraly thats all the writers care about, is backing up what they did as technically correctly.

I think it was overly harst and avoided mentioning any real growth of the hardware/software or any kind of acceptance that its new and needs a little time to get going.

Just really saw a writer throwing his toys out of his pram because some new hardware isn't fully ready yet.

QFT!

And just look at what pushing some barrels around un HalfLife 2 did...
People loooooved it!

Terra - Physics IS here...it's just how [H]ard you want it be there is at debate now

 

[magoo]

This is the next thing...
Look at all the interest.
Hell, even Havok statet throwing mud at AGIEA.
Out of fear.
Because AGEIA has something they don't...dedicated hardware.
And a little hint for you, if the hardware gets out it will be used.
That NVIDA and ATI also is ready to jump the bandwagon is yet another clue to how important physics will become.

Terra - Don't look at today, look at tomorrow...think outside the "box" (pun intended)

Agreed. but.
I dont think anyone is afraid of anyone. We still need the GPU and CPU and sound. Havok has good stuff and will always have a place.
Right now it just too hard to speculate. I agree(for what thats worth in the big scheme of things) that this concept is here to stay. But in what degree? How's it gonna play in Kansas?
Will a dell dimension have ageia?
Can you still play the game without the ageia?
or is this just an enthusiast enhancement?
Like I said, Im going to be the first in line if this deal takes off and I m sure it will, especially if UT2007 is as cool as people say it is going to be.
But the interest is only in this circle right now, and "we" are really a small circle in the big scheme of things.....whether in the box or out. My out of the box thought....put this chip on the MB.....then it will be a big deal.
just 2 cents from an innocent bystander.

 

[Terra]

Agreed. but.
I dont think anyone is afraid of anyone. We still need the GPU and CPU and sound. Havok has good stuff and will always have a place.

Remeber how AGEIA's SDK is free to use in games?
Guess who charges premium for their software?
That would be Havok.

So you got one company giving it's SDK away for free, and selling hardware dedicated to the task.
And you got another company charging an arm an leg for it's software...and nothing more.
And you tell me that Havok isn't scared?
What do you think HavokFX is all about.
It's a ditch effort to gain momentum.

Right now it just too hard to speculate.

You seem to be doing fine?

I agree(for what thats worth in the big scheme of things) that this concept is here to stay. But in what degree? How's it gonna play in Kansas?
Will a dell dimension have ageia?
Can you still play the game without the ageia?
or is this just an enthusiast enhancement?
Like I said, Im going to be the first in line if this deal takes off and I m sure it will, especially if UT2007 is as cool as people say it is going to be.

Try playing a modern game without a GPU, and use only onboard graphics.
Try it, then come back and tell me your impressions.
Is it playable?
A PPU isn't more required to game than a GPU is...

But the interest is only in this circle right now, and "we" are really a small circle in the big scheme of things.....whether in the box or out. My out of the box thought....put this chip on the MB.....then it will be a big deal.
just 2 cents from an innocent bystander.

Why do we put grahpics(high-ned) on the motherboard?
Why do people fail to see that the hardware specs are more like a GPU than a eg. onboard soundchip (which BTW also sucks)?
Why do they wanna fuse the PPU with the mainboard or GPU...but there are no-one trying to tell NVIDIA/ATI that they need to fuses their highend GPU's to their mobo's?

Terra - Is it because it dosn't have a flashy neondiode, a glowing neon fan and a cool sticker?

 

[sculelos]

I personally want a ppu but I'm not going to buy one untill it has a decent impact on the apps I run.

 

[GoldenTiger]

You may be overestimating just how far there is to jump.

I'm a staunch supporter of the PPU concept and I joke about it because GASP jokes like "Will xxxx kill the PPU" are FUNNY! It's all in good fun except for fanatics .

 

[GoldenTiger]

Remeber how AGEIA's SDK is free to use in games?
Guess who charges premium for their software?
That would be Havok.

So you got one company giving it's SDK away for free, and selling hardware dedicated to the task.
And you got another company charging an arm an leg for it's software...and nothing more.
And you tell me that Havok isn't scared?
What do you think HavokFX is all about.
It's a ditch effort to gain momentum.

You seem to be doing fine?


Terra - Is it because it dosn't have a flashy neondiode, a glowing neon fan and a cool sticker?

A hefty one at that, I have read the price tag is upwards in the near-million range for a title to license the rights for some of Havok's software .

I think the people posting in this thread so far who are anti-PPU-idea are mainly those who look at two video cards, and say "OOOOH THAT ONE HAS PRETTY COLORS ME WANTIE!!!" .

 

[GoldenTiger]

There's no doubt that a PPU has promise. We are looking at a device that is so new no one yet can formulate a solid opinion,simply due to the fact that this isnt much to talk about.

GRAW has some neat little add ons. Truthfully, how many ways can you blow up a truck?
I "looked" at CellFactor over and over.....yes there are some neat effects, but I can only look at it....since I dont own one of these PPUs I really cant see and interact with the game and "appreciate" it for myself.

Lets be honest. One half-assed add on and a Demo are all we have to base a new piece of hardware and what it can contribute. I dont think its fair to judge yet. Just because one guy got some frame rate loss everybody runs and starts to bad mouth the thing.

We just have to wait and see what comes next. If this deal makes gaming more fun I'll be the first guy to SLI a PPU!!!! I very much enjoy gaming and leading edge stuff. If there was more to do with a PPU right now Id have one. I have a great SLI set-up and so do alot of people.....about 18 months ago look what people said about that. Look at the lousy press crossfire got.

This may be the next thing.....or not. We just have to wait and let it "cook" some more.
just 2 cents.

Sounds like you couldn't appreciate the value of a cure for AIDS, even though one isn't out yet, either. (sarcasm) I guess we should end development of a cure for it, since we don't care about the potential of anything in the world, just what already is here and we can touch/gawk at the pretty colors (/end sarcasm).

 

[magoo]

If the chip was on the MB it would save space.
At this point I dont think I could mount the PPU if I wanted to. Id have to choose sound(X-Fi) or the PPU or find a new MB or use a single GPU and thusly squish my need for the nice SLI MB I already bought and the advantage that SLI gives me.

Terra,man, you can test the patience of Jesus himself. Do you really argue with everybody?? Or is it just me???? Im trying [H]ard to agree with you.
Yes the sound stinks from MB audio.
No I wont use MB graphics except for email.
But it might work for the PPU and save some space on the board for those things that aren't MB capable???? Or Creative just might put an X-Fi chip on a MB......that would solve alot of problems, too. But somebody needs to go first.

Just an innocent bystander.

 

[GoldenTiger]

If the chip was on the MB it would save space.
At this point I dont think I could mount the PPU if I wanted to. Id have to choose sound(X-Fi) or the PPU or find a new MB or use a single GPU and thusly squish my need for the nice SLI MB I already bought and the advantage that SLI gives me.

Terra,man, you can test the patience of Jesus himself. Do you really argue with everybody?? Or is it just me???? Im trying [H]ard to agree with you.
Yes the sound stinks from MB audio.
No I wont use MB graphics except for email.
But it might work for the PPU and save some space on the board for those things that aren't MB capable???? Or Creative just might put an X-Fi chip on a MB......that would solve alot of problems, too. But somebody needs to go first.

Just an innocent bystander.

Why integrate a $100-200 item onto the motherboard/videocard/etc.? Then you're paying for it every time you upgrade your motherboard/video/etc. again, for no benefit and just buying the same hardware over and over again. I don't really even like the concept of onboard sound, were it not that it probably adds a whopping $2-3 to the price if that of the board. It seems like your qualm isn't that it is a bad product, but rather, that you can't mount it in that useless PCI-E x1 slot that is sitting on your board doing nothing. Join the club!

 

[magoo]

Sounds like you couldn't appreciate the value of a cure for AIDS, even though one isn't out yet, either. (sarcasm) I guess we should end development of a cure for it, since we don't care about the potential of anything in the world, just what already is here and we can touch/gawk at the pretty colors (/end sarcasm).

Man, that's harsh.
In case you dont understand it, Im not against anything. All I'm saying is the technology is so new its hard to either bash it or accept it. Before I buy one Id like to see a bit more, thats all.
Let's ask this.....have you ordered one yet?

 

[GoldenTiger]

Man, that's harsh.
In case you dont understand it, Im not against anything. All I'm saying is the technology is so new its hard to either bash it or accept it. Before I buy one Id like to see a bit more, thats all.
Let's ask this.....have you ordered one yet?

Nope, because I haven't seen anyone with it in-stock in the USA with a good price (MSRP or less)... and I wasn't planning on buying one until about mid-June, when I am preparing for a possible Conroe upgrade. Nice red herring though.


EDIT: P.S. I do admit it was a little harsh... I was really trying to make an analogy, not say that you're heartless or anything .