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Will HDR Kill Your OLED TV

DocNo said:
In a Costco warehouse maybe. At home in a darkened or dark room? No comparison. Nothing is close to OLED - not even my Panasonic plasma.

The Microdot stuff Apple is working on is probably the only thing that will be able to compare and maybe even beat OLED, from what I have seen anyway.
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Read the reviews. With most real world content, the Samsung is capable of absolute black. And Costco doesn't sell the good models, they top out at the Q7FN, the Q8 and Q9 are the ones that are backlit. But go on reinforcing your own biases without doing any research. I am sure that works out well for ya!
 
Lateralus said:
1 - I was kidding, and said as much.
2 - I didn't say that they didn't and never pretended that they don't, and again...I said as much. You might have read my post but you clearly didn't hear what I was saying.
3 - You seem miffed that people are enjoying their OLEDs and not worrying about things that might not ever be an issue in normal use...dare I say obsessed given the number of posts in this thread repeating the same things over and over.
4 - Lighten up and don't get so confrontational when information is posted that goes against your narrative. I have acknowledged that some sets have had issues and agreed with some of what you said, but there is no give on your end so I'm afraid further discussion will not be very productive.
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He is probably just as frustrated as I am with some people here who continue to justify their own biases despite evidence to the contrary. You would think this was a political or religious discussion the way some here disregard reality!
 
jnemesh said:
He is probably just as frustrated as I am with some people here who continue to justify their own biases despite evidence to the contrary. You would think this was a political or religious discussion the way some here disregard reality!
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The thing is though, I don't see anyone saying that the issues raised are made up or imaginary, just that it might not be time to jump aboard the fear train. We can all agree that there is evidence that x, y, or z might happen, and has happened to *some*, but it's like the other side is ignoring all of the satisfied owners who have had no such issues.

At the end of the day it's only a consumer item and I don't care what other people use, so I'm not on a crusade for or against. I'm not here trying to convince everyone reading to buy an OLED, just stated my personal experience and admitted that if that changes for the negative then I'll reevaluate and see where the various technologies stand at that time.
 
jnemesh said:
He is probably just as frustrated as I am with some people here who continue to justify their own biases despite evidence to the contrary. You would think this was a political or religious discussion the way some here disregard reality!
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jnemesh said:
He is probably just as frustrated as I am with some people here who continue to justify their own biases despite evidence to the contrary. You would think this was a political or religious discussion the way some here disregard reality!
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You have said it succimctly. Just as the Fudzilla article said, some people don't care.

Lateralus, you have an interseting way of throwing out dismissive remarks mixed with conciliatory ones. Your saying you seem like you're working etc., and then going lol is interesting as a rhetorical device.

Then there's this:

"...You seem miffed that people are enjoying their OLEDs and not worrying about things that might not ever be an issue in normal use...dare I say obsessed given the number of posts in this thread repeating the same things over and over."

I have repeated somethins a few times because some people continue ignoring things based on reputable sources, scoentific studies, etc. I daresay some on this forum keeping asserting repeatedly that their personal experience negates some pretty clear issues with OLED. And your comment about my being miffed about people enjoyong their sets is completely in your mind, and not a fair or friendly comment. The reason I'm posting is I'm moved by facts, and you seem attentive to some facts at the same time that you rationalize them away. I would rather help people make an informed choice based on information, rather than being swayed by trends/

Then there's this

"Lighten up and don't get so confrontational when information is posted that goes against your narrative. I have acknowledged that some sets have had issues and agreed with some of what you said, but there is no give on your end so I'm afraid further discussion will not be very productive."

My narrative....A funny expression you use, but you use many of them. Mine is not a narrative, but a response to emerging facts. On another forum I was an enthusiast for OLED I change my mind quite readily when presented by facts, but you have not recounted facts, or posted scientific or journalistic articles. You have stated opinions. The idea of "giving on" something that is not supported by facts is not the sign of an open mind, but rather an illogical one.
 
dreamwriter said:
I daresay some on this forum keeping asserting repeatedly that their personal experience negates some pretty clear issues with OLED.
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I literally started my post with "This is purely based on my personal experience" which can't possibly be more indicative of the fact that this isn't scientific data collected from a large sample set (which Lateralus has also stated). However, this is a user forum where user perspective and experiences are an extremely important part of the community. I want to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly as it helps to inform myself and other members of the community.

If anyone is considering a new TV, I can only recommend that they try to collect as much information as possible from reputable sources. Part of that set of information would be recommendations from sites like rtings who seem to be run by stand up folks. In regards to best 4K TV & OLED, they have a pretty concise recommendation that I feel is entirely fair.


[snippet*]
Best 4k UHD TV: LG B7A
The best 4k UHD TV we've tested so far is the LG B7A 4k WebOS TV. It's a versatile OLED TV with exceptional picture quality and great viewing angles. The B7A is often interchangeable with the C7 since they both offer similar performance for almost the same price, so get whichever is cheaper.

OLEDs are able to turn individual pixels off, creating true blacks and an infinite contrast ratio. The B7A also has low input lag and great motion handling, perfect for gamers. It also makes a great PC monitor and comes loaded with some impressive smart features. The B7A, like other OLEDs, is not the brightest TV. It also has a risk of temporary image retention and permanent burn-in, although we don't expect most people to experience that.
[/snippet*]


Consumers should read everything they can, consider usage patterns, and spend without regret knowing that they did the research.
 
I just started watching this on Youtube. It's all about real world experiences with OLED, and the poster, humorously enough, found himself the target of some accusations that sound pretty familiar to me.

Don't point out that the Emperor has no clothes. That seems the advice being handed out these days on a number of issues.

UPDATE

In response to a poster's valid criticism, as I cannit vouch for the youtube poster's possible commercial interest either way, I've removed the video, People can view it if they want by searching for LG OLED exposed on youtube. On watching it, however it seems credible, as the poster puts himself personally on the line, in the litiginous atmosphere in which we live, and the results conform with numerous observations by others.
 
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dreamwriter said:
I just started watching this on Youtube. It's all about real world experiences with OLED, and the poster, humorously enough, found himself the target of some accusations that sound pretty familiar to me.

Don't point out that the Emperor has no clothes. That seems the advice being handed out these days on a number of issues.

By the way, I tried not to post the youtube itself, but just the link. If the administrator could help, I'd appreciate it.

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I would like to say that if you can use Youtube for propaganda purposes it is also able to stack the deck for negative remarks on competitors.
Unless people can be vetted you just might walked into a trap. And don't think that any of the companies involved would not do that. If you see the amount of money spend on "influencers" .

That does not mean that the problems do not exist but all I'm saying is that it might not be in a scale portrait by sources which are hard to verify...
 
Pieter3dnow said:
I would like to say that if you can use Youtube for propaganda purposes it is also able to stack the deck for negative remarks on competitors.
Unless people can be vetted you just might walked into a trap. And don't think that any of the companies involved would not do that. If you see the amount of money spend on "influencers" .

That does not mean that the problems do not exist but all I'm saying is that it might not be in a scale portrait by sources which are hard to verify...
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You are right in one regard. I cannot judge the interests of the youtube poster. But it was posted by someone who is willing to post in a litiginous climate the experience of a number of people in order to caution them about a real problem. Still, I would save the term propaganda for serious events taking place now in the world.

The concept that all criticsim of these sets is competitor driven criticism is undercut by the observations recorded conform to abundant corroborative information that is out there. Before posting I read a good number of articles dealing with the chemistry of OLED, and problems with some substrate materials. I also went through various bureaus that record customer complaints, and there is a clear trend,

And take the widely publicized 2018 story of LG removing their OLEDs from Incheon Airport due to burn in after three months. Don't you think it strange that they were seemingly unaware that every single one of the approximately 50 sets installed would develop bur in? What's the best interpretation of this? That they didn't know their sets have a burn in problem? That is fairly unbelievable, given the clear and quite public result. That they thought people wouldn't notice burn in? Pick either one of these, and it's still not good. Where;s the propaganda here?

I don't own any recemt TV, am not in any business related to electronics, and have no dog in this fight. People who do have a dog on the fight are those who bought these sets and are defending their purchase. If I were in the market for a TV, I would appreciate cautionary information rather than comments friom people who seem to admit that a problem might possiblly exist, but then rationalize it away as being statistically insignificant, when it is more than that. Why doesn't LG's warranty cover burn in if it's so remote and improbable an issue? Why don't they give a two or three year warranty?

By the way, I tried to post only the youtube link, but it didn't work in this case, and I decided to remove it for reasons stated above, and in my previous updated post.

Incidentally, I was struck by the fact that the poster recounted slight against him for speking out that were pretty darn close to comments made toward me for posting objectively critical information. All of these devices are simply hardware, made by companies without perfect public records, not objects of veneration.

Here's an interesting article, that might help people who buy electronics conscious of their rights.

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-relea...presentations-relating-to-consumer-guarantees
 
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dreamwriter claims to have "no dog in this fight", but has over 40 posts in this thread alone...all anti-OLED.

And the personal experiences of people who actually DO own these (and don't use them as airport monitors that are always on and display static content - DUH!) don't mean anything because he has done his research.

There it is ladies and gents, OLED is shite, you've all been warned.
 
OLED Burn-in exists for tiny corner-case. This is true.

People freak out like this is the next Anti-vaxx scare, and start linking paid advertisements from Youtube or Twitter for "evidence."

Since when did the Soapbox migrate to Front Page News?

This pointless over-reaction is just like the butt-hurt pure reactionaries who angrily accused NPR of inciting a takeover this July 4th by Tweeting the entire US Declaration of Independence.
 
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defaultluser said:
OLED Burn-in exists for tiny corner-case. This is true.

People freak out like this is the next Anti-vaxx scare, and start linking paid advertisements from Youtube or Twitter for "evidence."

Since when did the Soapbox migrate to Front Page News?

This pointless over-reaction is just like the butt-hurt pure reactionaries who angrily accused NPR of inciting a takeover this July 4th by Tweeting the entire US Declaration of Independence.
Click to expand...

I think it would be better if you started including evidence in your posts, rather than just unsupported assertions.

By the way I removed the youtube, and tried initially to post only the link. I removed it because another thoughtful poster made a valid point about source.
 
dreamwriter said:
I think it would be better if you started including evidence in your posts, rather than just unsupported assertions.

By the way I removed the youtube, and tried initially to post only the link. I removed it because another thoughtful poster made a valid point about source.
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I just checked the burn-n test images at the Rtings test. There are no discernible patterns on my TV.

What else can I show you? The Rtings test is a torture test that just dosn't exist, unless you play video games all day.

http://i.rtings.com/images/burn-in-test/test-pattern-2-large.jpg

test-pattern-2-large.jpg


Look at that incredible contrast of logo vs background.. You never see that in real video content, and it's only common in some video games.

This is a Torture Test. Yes, you can create Burn-in running this continuously No, you probably won't find enough real content like this to replicate this Torture Test unless you're showing flights at an airport that are HIGH-CONTRAST for easier viewing of text at a distance.
 
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Lateralus said:
dreamwriter claims to have "no dog in this fight", but has over 40 posts in this thread alone...all anti-OLED.

And the personal experiences of people who actually DO own these (and don't use them as airport monitors that are always on and display static content - DUH!) don't mean anything because he has done his research.

There it is ladies and gents, OLED is shite, you've all been warned.
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Really? In your passive aggressive commentaries, which are full of inuendoes, veiled insults, and devoid of any factual evidence whatsoever, you failed to note that I acknowledge the picture quality of OLED, and far greater viewing angles of OLED.

The numer of posts someone makes cannot be correlated with intent or motive, something that anyone with critical intelligence would understand.
 
dreamwriter said:
And take the widely publicized 2018 story of LG removing their OLEDs from Incheon Airport due to burn in after three months. Don't you think it strange that they were seemingly unaware that every single one of the approximately 50 sets installed would develop bur in? What's the best interpretation of this? That they didn't know their sets have a burn in problem? That is fairly unbelievable, given the clear and quite public result. That they thought people wouldn't notice burn in? Pick either one of these, and it's still not good. Where;s the propaganda here?
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I see reports that they replaced a single OLED TV, not that they replaced them all. Also this is an issue where the TV was showing a single image, not rotating images. So I don't see how this would correlate to many people on here that are using OLEDs that are rotating through images, not leaving them on only one image for 3 weeks straight.

dreamwriter said:
I don't own any recemt TV, am not in any business related to electronics, and have no dog in this fight. People who do have a dog on the fight are those who bought these sets and are defending their purchase. If I were in the market for a TV, I would appreciate cautionary information rather than comments friom people who seem to admit that a problem might possiblly exist, but then rationalize it away as being statistically insignificant, when it is more than that. Why doesn't LG's warranty cover burn in if it's so remote and improbable an issue? Why don't they give a two or three year warranty?
Click to expand...

If you have no dog in this fight, then why are you fighting so much?


dreamwriter said:
The numer of posts someone makes cannot be correlated with intent or motive, something that anyone with critical intelligence would understand.
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Yes they objectively can. Especially when you keep parroting the same things over and over.

dreamwriter said:
By the way, I tried to post only the youtube link, but it didn't work in this case,. Incidentally, I was struck by the fact that the poster recounted slight against him for speking out that were pretty darn close to comments made toward me for posting objectively critical information. All of these devices are simply hardware, made by companies without perfect public records, not objects of veneration.
Click to expand...

I am sorry, but I have to be honest, you have not seemed very objective in here at all. You seem to be advocating for people giving up OLED due to burn-in which happens from showing a stagnant screen for extremely long periods at a time. That is generally not how people are using them in this forum. Most are either using it as an actual TV in which the image is almost always constantly changing, or using it as a gaming monitor, in which again, they image is almost constantly changing. The likelihood for early burn-in in these cases is extremely low.

For my personal experience, I have not even experienced the image retention that most others have seen after leaving a menu on for hours. I have left the game menu on my LG OLED for over 5 hours and experienced no image retention. I consider myself very lucky in that. Typically if I am going to leave my game on and go into the other room, i will turn the TV off. I have had my LG OLED for 1.5 years and not experienced image retention even once, not to mention zero burn-in. I expect at some point I will experience image retention, and perhaps over the course of a few years I might even experience burn-in. But neither problem has showed up yet and in the meantime I have had an amazing experience with this display. The colors, the performance is extraordinary for my uses.

The best thing to do though is to look at tests. Rtings is doing this and has two sets currently going. One with older 2016 model TVs and one with newer models that have pixel refreshers. The former has a mix of video and static images. You can clearly see the set begin to get some burn-in from the static images starting in about week 5. This test has some atypical images and use though even though they say they are trying to simulate general use (who here uses their OLED 20 hours a day, 7 days a week and uses a constant loop video with a mix of static images and very prominent static overlays?). The second test they are doing seems like more typical use and is using more modern OLEDs that have pixel refresher technologies. At week 6 on the TV running CNN, you can start seeing some burn in. But even at week 22, the ones running the games or normal TV don't experience any. Also realize in the second test, each TV is doing a single action, not cycling through to other activities.

So in other words, from the tests, it seems you need to be doing the same thing constantly with at least a static portion of the screen to really experience burn-in. I don't see that as a use case for how most people in here are using their systems.
 
defaultluser said:
I just checked the burn-n test images at the Rtings test. There are no discernible patterns on my TV.

What else can I show you? The Rtings test is a torture test that just dosn't exist, unless you play video games all day.

http://i.rtings.com/images/burn-in-test/test-pattern-2-large.jpg

View attachment 86909

Look at that incredible contrast of logo vs background.. You never see that in real video content, and it's only common in some video games.

This is a Torture Test. Yes, you can create Burn-in running this continuously No, you probably won't find enough real content like this to replicate this Torture Test unless you're showing flights at an airport.
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I didn' t ask you for evidencem but rather Laterus.

rtings has to do accelaerated testung, and they noticed burn in after only a few days. They cannot do a real world test over a four year period, as that is impractical. How do you think tests on any manufactured item are made?

Many AVS forum posters have burn in without high contrast torture, as do numerous people on complaint boards. By the way, what is HDR...related to the original post? High contrast,

Have you projected a white screen on your TV to look for burn in?

The fact that a good number of owners have no problems is within expectation for technical problems. A significant problem typically affects a subset of owners.

Even CNET, not know for putting anything on the line, acknowledges OLED burn in, even as they downplay it.

Did you read the scienec based article I posted about OLED failure?

Again, why doesn;t LG's warrnaty cover burn in, if it's so insignificant?
 
dreamwriter said:
The fact that a good number of owners have no problems is within expectation for technical problems. A significant problem typically affects a subset of owners.
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Okay if only a small subset of owners has an issue, then why all the alarmism?
 
I am not parroting anyting, NoMatter, and have posted numerous articles, including science based ones which many seem to have ignored.

I post her because I am struck by tthe head in the sand attitude of many posters here who do have a dog in this fight....they spent thousand on their sets. I'm using an HD rear projection, and by the way the way, was an early advocate of OLED on AVS Forum. I thought it would be a perfect display, but have changed my mind, and now have more interest in durable technologies like OLET and MicroLed, as well as Quantum dot. The chemistry of all of these are far more resistant to degradation than OLED> I will have to find and post an article on OLED degradation due to substrate materials, published by the Dept. od Energy, a noted parrot organization.

Did you read the post about the Australian government suing LG for deceptive practices regarding warranties? Probably not. Of coyrse, that's entirely irrelevant.

https://www.oled-info.com/lg-replaces-oled-tv-incheon-airport-lcd-due-burn-issuesLG replaces the OLED TV at Incheon airport to an LCD due to burn-in issues

Only four months after LG installed 69 OLED TVs at Seoul's Incheon Airport it was reported that the TVs suffer serious permanent image-retention, or burn-in. ZDNet now reports that LG replaced the problematic OLED TVs at the airport's Korean Air Miler Club Lounge with LCDs.

You are probably wrongly inferrin from the title, which refers to OLED TV as a term where the article clearly refers to TVs.

There has been a tendency on this thread by some to use ad hominem attacks, which many have addressed towards me. That is not a real argument at all. Facts are.
 
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Dreamwriter, at this point you're just having a conversation with yourself. We get it, you prefer QLED over OLED because of your borderline irrational fear of burn in and degradation. Doesn't change the fact that likely the majority of others still have had excellent experiences with their OLEDs and haven't had any issues whatsoever.

Plasmas were also susceptible to burn in but I, as well as countless other people, always chose them regardless because they had superior picture quality. In the 10 years I owned them I never experienced burn in. Just because there are some reports of burn in does not mean it's a big issue given the amount of variance introduced with every usage scenario.

Speaking from my actual experience with the two LG OLED TVs (55C6 & 65B6) - I have never experienced any burn in or visible degradation after nearly 2 years of ownership and over a thousand hours of various types of media consumption. The picture quality is just as stunning as the day I bought it. I still would gladly pay a premium for OLED over any LED tech without even batting an eye.
 
exlink said:
Dreamwriter, at this point you're just having a conversation with yourself. We get it, you prefer QLED over OLED because of your borderline irrational fear of burn in and degradation. ....[/QU

Very amusing post, and like most posts on this thread from those who own OLEDs, completely non responsive to facts and substantive aritcles. You have not, like all of the posse of owners, responded substantively to anything, such as evidence of burn in posted by ZDNET. It amazies me that you don't even ask why LG offers no burn in warranty, and Samsung offers 10 years.

The idea that I have a borderline irrational fear of burn is quite silly, but of a piece with other ad hominem arguments made here Ad hominem arguments are most often made when the arguer can't muster an argument based on facts. It's a shame that you have to resort to insults to make your points, rather than muster evidemce, but again you are not alone And you are clearly no psychologist.

The ZDNET article, by the way, mentioned that as sales rise, so are complaints of burn in.

Again, like many, you don't make any response to actula evidncem which is interesting.

I know that I am not conversing with myself, because there are others on this thread who agree with me, but don;t wan't to be attacked by people who have invested thousands in something that has clear limitations. If there is irrational fear here, it's from people who don't want to think that their TVs may likely have a shorter lifetime than projected..

It's also striking how angry some of you are. Anger is seldom a sign of certainty.You say I am closed minded, but it's you who don't even acknowledge articles by reputable sources.A
objects of veneration. They're just TVs. And evidence will continue to mount that these TVs have a flaw, irrespective of your opinion.
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