Will HDR Kill Your OLED TV

[haste.]

I don't think we're talking about the demise of OLED, but on the AVS thread, which has over 2000 posts, there are a lot of people with burn in and banding. I also read that LG does not consider banding to be "ou of spec" and won't cover it. Are you a moderate or heavy user, and do you watch HDR?t

Here's a Samsung review from techradar which states that it delivers the best 4K HDR picture they've seen.

https://www.techradar.com/reviews/samsung-q9fn-qled-tv-qn65q9fn

The Achilles heel of QLED is viewing angle, where you need to stay with 30 degrees horizontally, wheres OLED has no viewing angles issues att. When QLED are fully emissive displays, they will match OLED's viewing angles...but not now.

Moderate to heavy use, lots of HDR. Had it for nearly a year without even experiencing image retention, but don't do things like use it as a monitor and don't do stupid shit like crank the brightness and contrast to 100. I play games in 4k HDR, mainly sports games, and still haven't experienced it (knock on wood). As I'm typing this I have Madden on pause checking the weather to see if the rain is going to clear up for a BBQ lol.

Edit: and I'm aware of the burn in. Again from rtings which you may find interesting - https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-life-oled-burn-in-test

They are 22 weeks in and the only image that is really burning is CNN at fully cranked out settings for 20 hours a day.

 

[dreamwriter]

Moderate to heavy use, lots of HDR. Had it for nearly a year without even experiencing image retention, but don't do things like use it as a monitor and don't do stupid shit like crank the brightness and contrast to 100. I play games in 4k HDR, mainly sports games, and still haven't experienced it (knock on wood). As I'm typing this I have Madden on pause checking the weather to see if the rain is going to clear up for a BBQ lol.

I'm glad for you. Nevertheless, check out the AVS thread and you will see plenty of peopke who have not driven their panels much who have experienced burn in, banding, and discolored areas.

 

[haste.]

I'm glad for you. Nevertheless, check out the AVS thread and you will see plenty of peopke who have not driven their panels much who have experienced burn in, banding, and discolored areas.

I'm not doubting you, but I do think there were a bigger problem with the earlier models. In that thread is it to a specific model or just OLED? I'm not saying it couldn't happen!

 

[exlink]

I have two 4K OLED HDR TVs with probably 1000-1500 hours between the two of them. I haven't had any issues with burn-in and that is after numerous gaming sessions that have static HUD elements in HDR on the screen for hours at a time. I've had rare instances where image retention lasts about 10-15 minutes, but that's about it.

I feel like you'd really need to abuse these OLEDs to get permanent burn-in.

 

[dreamwriter]

I have two 4K OLED HDR TVs with probably 1000-1500 hours between the two of them. I haven't had any issues with burn-in and that is after numerous gaming sessions that have static HUD elements in HDR on the screen for hours at a time. I've had rare instances where image retention lasts about 10-15 minutes, but that's about it.

I feel like you'd really need to abuse these OLEDs to get permanent burn-in.

Well, one dynamic at play here that can skew results is variable quality of panels. There have been reports of runs of flawed panels.

The AVS thread also deals with problems on the newest generation of panels, and yesterday I went onto a complaint board which had a large number of complaints about the newest models alongside some favorable reviews.

 

[jnemesh]

and jnemesh - I have to ask, do either of you own both? Or more than demoed both? Or are you going off what you read on the internet? Just curious as both of you seem to be experts on these panels.

Full disclosure I have the first TV Samsung advertised as Quantum dot display and know that it's inevitable there have been advancements in the technology (input lag was a huge problem with the JS9500), but side by side with my OLED a lot of what you are saying doesn't match up to what I actually view. A MSRP $8k Samsung from 2 years ago still pumps out a pretty damn great picture today, destroyed the KS series from 2017 in every aspect, and now we have the Q9F as the champ. It looks like they solved the few quirks on the JS9500, especially input lag at 4k and ramping up the processor, but everything I'm reading is that the Q9F is identical to the JS9500 in black levels - it's the same tech (full array local dimming QLED).

Not trying to be malicious, just curious where you are getting your opinions from - reading or actually viewing?

Edit: I did just find a review that shows greater black uniformity on the Q9F but not by a great deal... again it's inevitable that 2 years of R&D in this market would result in somewhat better results.

I work as an account manager at a nationwide distribution company and have both a QLED and OLED (flagship models) on display in my showroom. I also own a Samsung UN65KS8000 at home. I base my opinions on the many reviews available online as well as the opinions of ISF certified integrators who calibrate both sets on a regular basis.

Bottom line...OLED has a fantastic image, the best black levels, and the thinnest profile. QLED has outstanding blacks that don't QUITE match the OLED (Q9FN), but balanced that with 3 times the peak brightness, wider color gamut, and no susceptibility to screen burn.

Picture quality aside, I also appreciate having the power supply and all electronics separate from the set itself on the Samsung, which will open the possibility of an upgrade path for HDMI 2.1 (Unannounced, but certainly possible). It also makes replacing the most common part that fails in modern TVs easy.

Freesync support is also a HUGE benefit of the Samsung over OLED sets, for those of us into PC gaming, this us revolutionary!

Additional features like the no gap wall mount and ambient mode also are pretty damn nice.

Oh, for the record, I have been in the consumer electronics field for 22 years. I know about what I talk about here.

 

[dreamwriter]

I work as an account manager at a nationwide distribution company and have both a QLED and OLED (flagship models) on display in my showroom. I also own a Samsung UN65KS8000 at home. I base my opinions on the many reviews available online as well as the opinions of ISF certified integrators who calibrate both sets on a regular basis.

Bottom line...OLED has a fantastic image, the best black levels, and the thinnest profile. QLED has outstanding blacks that don't QUITE match the OLED (Q9FN), but balanced that with 3 times the peak brightness, wider color gamut, and no susceptibility to screen burn.

Picture quality aside, I also appreciate having the power supply and all electronics separate from the set itself on the Samsung, which will open the possibility of an upgrade path for HDMI 2.1 (Unannounced, but certainly possible). It also makes replacing the most common part that fails in modern TVs easy.

Freesync support is also a HUGE benefit of the Samsung over OLED sets, for those of us into PC gaming, this us revolutionary!

Additional features like the no gap wall mount and ambient mode also are pretty damn nice.

Oh, for the record, I have been in the consumer electronics field for 22 years. I know about what I talk about here.

Great, balanced, informed post, and interesting about the upgradability of the Samsung.

There is also the point that the tremendous contrast ratio of the QLEDS can contribute to subjectively deep blacks in the presence of high brightness in the scene.

Again, the fact that OLEDs can;t match the brightness says something about how hard they can be driven.

 

[haste.]

I work as an account manager at a nationwide distribution company and have both a QLED and OLED (flagship models) on display in my showroom. I also own a Samsung UN65KS8000 at home. I base my opinions on the many reviews available online as well as the opinions of ISF certified integrators who calibrate both sets on a regular basis.

Bottom line...OLED has a fantastic image, the best black levels, and the thinnest profile. QLED has outstanding blacks that don't QUITE match the OLED (Q9FN), but balanced that with 3 times the peak brightness, wider color gamut, and no susceptibility to screen burn.

Picture quality aside, I also appreciate having the power supply and all electronics separate from the set itself on the Samsung, which will open the possibility of an upgrade path for HDMI 2.1 (Unannounced, but certainly possible). It also makes replacing the most common part that fails in modern TVs easy.

Freesync support is also a HUGE benefit of the Samsung over OLED sets, for those of us into PC gaming, this us revolutionary!

Additional features like the no gap wall mount and ambient mode also are pretty damn nice.

Oh, for the record, I have been in the consumer electronics field for 22 years. I know about what I talk about here.

Like I said wasn't trying to be malicious. The JS9500 also has the "box" that they stated would be upgrade-able. Never going to happen. It is nice for TV placement and input control, and if it dies it should be fairly easy to replace unlike onboard electronics.

I love my Sammy, again it's coming down to a preference thing, I enjoy the black levels of the OLED more as I use a more natural calibration and don't crank my brightness in the first place... like a certified ISF technician would do.

 

[sleepeeg3]

Any self-illuminating display is going to suffer from issues like uneven-wear and the possibility of image retention/burn in, OLED is no different than Plasma in this regard. Making those tiny self-illuminating pixels go MAX POWAAAAH over and over is, yeah, gonig to probably kill it sooner than later.

If you owned a Plasma or CRT Rear or Front projector (where you could introduce uneven phosphor wear) you're well versed in these type of issues. There's no free lunch, people buy LCD's the same way they buy shitty 196kbit digital music copies......its 'good enough without most of the hassles' even if you lose some quality as a result.

I buy LCD's and (somewhat) shitty 196k music files for those exact reasons, too.

First off - no that is not a guarantee.

Secondly, I think you mean 192kbps. ...and yes, you lose the high frequency noises with 192kbps, but the sound quality is okay.

 

[dreamwriter]

I don't think that HeadRusch's point about all self illuminating (does not differentiate between backlit or emissive) is true. There is alot of literature about the chemistry of these displays that show clear differences in material and technolog used in different display. The huge investments in Quantum Dots, and interest in MicroLED and QLET (Quantum Light Emitting Transistors...possibly the best of all), all are driven by a search for longer lived, stable, efficemt displays that are uniform, and do not degrade Transistors are very stable, energy efficient, and can form easily fabricated, integrated active matrix displays.

 

[dreamwriter]

I don't think that HeadRusch's point about all self illuminating (does not differentiate between backlit or emissive) is true. There is alot of literature about the chemistry of these displays that show clear differences in material and technolog used in different display. The huge investments in Quantum Dots, and interest in MicroLED and QLET (Quantum Light Emitting Transistors...possibly the best of all), all are driven by a search for longer lived, stable, efficemt displays that are uniform, and do not degrade Transistors are very stable, energy efficient, and can form easily fabricated, integrated active matrix displays.

 

[jnemesh]

Like I said wasn't trying to be malicious. The JS9500 also has the "box" that they stated would be upgrade-able. Never going to happen. It is nice for TV placement and input control, and if it dies it should be fairly easy to replace unlike onboard electronics.

I love my Sammy, again it's coming down to a preference thing, I enjoy the black levels of the OLED more as I use a more natural calibration and don't crank my brightness in the first place... like a certified ISF technician would do.

The js9500 has the tizen os already and hdmi 2.0. No real need for an upgrade box yet. Samsung already made several "evolution kit" upgrades for older TVs: the SEK-1000, SEK-2500, and the SEK-3500. They have an excellent track record for upgrades...and are the ONLY TVs that are hardware upgradable at all.

 

[haste.]

The js9500 has the tizen os already and hdmi 2.0. No real need for an upgrade box yet. Samsung already made several "evolution kit" upgrades for older TVs: the SEK-1000, SEK-2500, and the SEK-3500. They have an excellent track record for upgrades...and are the ONLY TVs that are hardware upgradable at all.

Question I'm wondering if you could answer for me, it's evident you have much more experience with these guys - I read something a while ago regarding the upgrade path for the box and the person that wrote the article stated that theoretically thru a hardware upgrade the panel could display higher resolutions as they became available. I forget the technical details and specs he was using, but I find that hard to believe as there are a fixed number of pixels and as far as I know would require a different panel to support (I think he was stating something like the pixel pitch on the JS9500 panel is greater than "4k" therefore would allow higher res if the hardware and software supported it). Am I missing something and is there any possibility that could be true?

 

[jnemesh]

Question I'm wondering if you could answer for me, it's evident you have much more experience with these guys - I read something a while ago regarding the upgrade path for the box and the person that wrote the article stated that theoretically thru a hardware upgrade the panel could display higher resolutions as they became available. I forget the technical details and specs he was using, but I find that hard to believe as there are a fixed number of pixels and as far as I know would require a different panel to support (I think he was stating something like the pixel pitch on the JS9500 panel is greater than "4k" therefore would allow higher res if the hardware and software supported it). Am I missing something and is there any possibility that could be true?

Almost zero possibility that this is true. The panel's resolution is fixed at time of production, no magic box will up the resolution to a higher spec. What it WILL do is upgrade the processor for the TV, giving you a faster, more responsive UI, newer OS in some cases (older sets were upgraded to Tizen OS this way), and upgraded HDMI inputs.

With the new "OneConnect" boxes on the Q7FN and Q9FN (and soon the new "Frame" TVs), the TV's power supply is also in the box...which means that if you have a power supply failure, it is, for the first time ever, a user replaceable part!

Plenty of advantages to the "OneConnect" boxes...but resolution upgrades aren't one of them!

 

[Mad Maxx]

I may be in a distinct minority by stating that I fail to see the appeal of HDR. I have a 55" LG B7A OLED and 40" Samsung MU7000. Whenever I've tried HDR on them it just looks like dynamic contrast has been switched on and boosted by 500%. I can't stand it.

 

[haste.]

Almost zero possibility that this is true. The panel's resolution is fixed at time of production, no magic box will up the resolution to a higher spec. What it WILL do is upgrade the processor for the TV, giving you a faster, more responsive UI, newer OS in some cases (older sets were upgraded to Tizen OS this way), and upgraded HDMI inputs.

With the new "OneConnect" boxes on the Q7FN and Q9FN (and soon the new "Frame" TVs), the TV's power supply is also in the box...which means that if you have a power supply failure, it is, for the first time ever, a user replaceable part!

Plenty of advantages to the "OneConnect" boxes...but resolution upgrades aren't one of them!

Exactly what I thought - I think he was being theoretical due to the pixel pitch, but yeah seemed to be silly when I read it. Wish I could find the article, actually may have been something I had linked to me from here.

 

[haste.]

I may be in a distinct minority by stating that I fail to see the appeal of HDR. I have a 55" LG B7A OLED and 40" Samsung MU7000. Whenever I've tried HDR on them it just looks like dynamic contrast has been switched on and boosted by 500%. I can't stand it.

What is your source? Source matters quite a bit. UHD Blu ray with HDR look fantastic, Netflix with a strong connection is pretty good, most everything else has been fairly weak. My C7 is the same panel as the B7, what picture mode are you using and have you tried any of the settings you can find on the net? (every panel is different, but it's a good starting point if you don't want to pay for professional calibration)

 

[Lateralus]

Moderate to heavy use, lots of HDR. Had it for nearly a year without even experiencing image retention, but don't do things like use it as a monitor and don't do stupid shit like crank the brightness and contrast to 100. I play games in 4k HDR, mainly sports games, and still haven't experienced it (knock on wood). As I'm typing this I have Madden on pause checking the weather to see if the rain is going to clear up for a BBQ lol.

Edit: and I'm aware of the burn in. Again from rtings which you may find interesting - https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-life-oled-burn-in-test

They are 22 weeks in and the only image that is really burning is CNN at fully cranked out settings for 20 hours a day.

I've been using my B7 since last fall as my PC monitor and have experienced zero image retention or burn in. So I should be a primary candidate for it, but I'm not stupid with it and do take some extra precautions that I probably wouldn't with an LCD.

I have seen the burn in thread on AVSForum and don't doubt that some people have had issues, but I haven't experienced anything like that and wouldn't trade the black levels and overall image quality for anything else right now. I am a tech enthusiast and don't mind dropping decent coin on things like this, so I'll have no problem upgrading if and when I see any noticeable panel degeneration or when something significantly better comes along. Right now I'm loving it though!

 

[jnemesh]

I find the QLED to be choppy without any of the "advanced" settings active. I definitely shut down dynamic, judder, noise, etc. immediately, but did leave some of the smoothing features on very low and tweaked as necessary. OLED I didn't have to leave anything on was my point in that post. Was able to love the natural signal without any post proc and very happy with the PQ. I also am a low color, warm setting person for a natural look to my TVs, so it's a preference thing.

Edit: I have a UHD player on both TVs. Waiting for my wife to get home and the sun to set so I can fire up Blue Planet 2. I'll shut everything off on both and report back

Well, everyone has different preferences...but if you go into the advanced settings for the motion control, you can set it where it's not obnoxious, at least.

 

[jnemesh]

I have viewed these not in bright showrooms, and again, I am more concerned about degradation. You will probably know in three years or so...or maybe sooner...whether these displays lose brightness over time in line with expectation.

Out of curiosity, how long is the LG OLED warranty, and do they cover burn in?

I can answer that one. LG consumer TVs are covered for 1 year parts and labor. Image retention or screen burn is specifically NOT covered under warranty. They advise you how to minimize or prevent it in the manual, including use of the TVs settings and features...but if you get permanent image retention, you are on your own.

LG's OLED screens ARE amazing. They offer one of the best pictures you can have on a flat panel right now, and the "B" and "C" series are fairly affordable. They are not for everyone though. If you watch primarily TV and movies, with SOME gaming and computer use, you most likely won't see any issues. If you spend 2-3 hours a day, EVERY DAY, playing the same game, you should probably buy something else.

That being said, there is no "right" answer. Who makes the "best" TV is too subjective, even with all of the OBJECTIVE measurements. The "best" TV is whatever one is right for YOU.

Personally, I am VERY tempted by the Samsung Q9FN. It's combination of picture quality, brightness, anti-glare screen, and black levels, coupled with features like an external power supply, FreeSync/VRR support, and "Smart" functionality that's actually usable make it a tempting choice. In all likelihood though, my discretionary budget is going to go to a new gaming PC build, Vive Pro setup, and a new TV will have to wait until next year.

Good luck to all of those making purchases this year though. If any of you have questions, give a shout, I will be glad to try and answer them for you.

 

[TripleAgent77]

I may be in a distinct minority by stating that I fail to see the appeal of HDR. I have a 55" LG B7A OLED and 40" Samsung MU7000. Whenever I've tried HDR on them it just looks like dynamic contrast has been switched on and boosted by 500%. I can't stand it.

I felt the same at first. As said earlier, source matters. IMHO, it does an extreme enhancement of the image without introducing artifacts or soap opera effect. i like it, but I don't think it's a huge deal. Mine isn't professionally calibrated, so I may be missing out.

 

[Fleat]

I felt the same at first. As said earlier, source matters. IMHO, it does an extreme enhancement of the image without introducing artifacts or soap opera effect. i like it, but I don't think it's a huge deal. Mine isn't professionally calibrated, so I may be missing out.

Source is definitely key. I did a direct comparison of Planet Earth II streamed from Netflix 4K HDR vs 4K UHD Blu-ray and it was a notable difference.

On the streaming version I didn't see the full range of benefits from HDR as the image was plagued with subtle compression artifacts and noticeable black crush. You lose a significant amount of the shadow detailing and dark highlights not to mention the motion artifacts. This contrasting balance between the dark details and bright highlights is what makes HDR truly pop. Problems like this are unavoidable when you are essentially compressing a 4K video stream down to 1080p blu-ray bit rates (or less).

Test TV: Calibrated LG OLED65B7A

 

[Mad Maxx]

What is your source? Source matters quite a bit. UHD Blu ray with HDR look fantastic, Netflix with a strong connection is pretty good, most everything else has been fairly weak. My C7 is the same panel as the B7, what picture mode are you using and have you tried any of the settings you can find on the net? (every panel is different, but it's a good starting point if you don't want to pay for professional calibration)

I felt the same at first. As said earlier, source matters. IMHO, it does an extreme enhancement of the image without introducing artifacts or soap opera effect. i like it, but I don't think it's a huge deal. Mine isn't professionally calibrated, so I may be missing out.

I don't have a 4K Blu ray player. Everything is now streamed from Netflix 4K, Amazon, and stored on external drives. Maybe I should get a player and see if that helps. On my PC, I've tried HDR for gaming and just didn't care for it.

 

[dreamwriter]

One thing about burn in...If you want to look for it, display a completely white field on the screen.

The other issue about OLED has t do with aging. Based on what I've read OLEDs simply age more quickly than other display technology elements. From what I understand it, when luminance decrease, more voltage is sent to the OLEDs to compensate, which should mean even more aging. So when someone has an OLED for a year or two they might not yet be able to assess longevity. In the same light, when somebody says "I'm only keeping the set for four or five years" that is a statement of intent, not an assesment of what actually happens to brightness after three, or four years.

There is also another kind of issue or failure, that involves the OLED suddenly not working working at all. This failure occurs even in the absenceof driving the display hard. I then searched for and found reports of OLED TVs suddenly not displaying a picture, evn though the TV is on, and produces sound. Are they due to the mechanism described in the second linked article from ScienceDirect? I don't know.

The reason I think a discussion abou this is important is because buyers should be aware that problems with OLEDs are not fantasym and this should be a factor when buying a TV. The fact that OLED makers have parsimonious, restricted warranties is great for them, but not for the consumer.

The model for business, in the context of a truly competitive environment, was that companies need their buyers, and sought to please them. In an atmosphere of diminished competition, where companies have evolved into juggernaut corporations, and markets are global, the consumer becomes a blip...easily replaced by another eager buyer.

OLED has been aggressively marketed, prices have come down, and its out of the box picture is extraordinary.
In that light, how many people are concerned about chemical degradation? Probably not many.

https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/697358.IMOLAfinalWorkshop_UniZG_OLEDaging_v6.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S156611991500066X

 

[Fleat]

One thing about burn in...If you want to look for it, display a completely white field on the screen.

The other issue about OLED has t do with aging. Based on what I've read OLEDs simply age more quickly than other display technology elements. From what I understand it, when luminance decrease, more voltage is sent to the OLEDs to compensate, which should mean even more aging. So when someone has an OLED for a year or two they might not yet be able to assess longevity. In the same light, when somebody says "I'm only keeping the set for four or five years" that is a statement of intent, not an assesment of what actually happens to brightness after three, or four years.

This is purely based on my personal experience but I have an LG 55EA9800 OLED that is roughly 4.5 years old with thousands of hours of use with 0 image retention and no noticeable luminance difference.

I actually rechecked my calibration on it a few months ago and it was still spot on 4 years later. The only thing that annoys me with the TV to this day is the lack of a VESA mount

 

[Pieter3dnow]

I don't have a 4K Blu ray player. Everything is now streamed from Netflix 4K, Amazon, and stored on external drives. Maybe I should get a player and see if that helps. On my PC, I've tried HDR for gaming and just didn't care for it.

You can check what is going on when you check the back-light settings. That is usually maxed out.

 

[Lateralus]

This is purely based on my personal experience but I have an LG 55EA9800 OLED that is roughly 4.5 years old with thousands of hours of use with 0 image retention and no noticeable luminance difference.

I actually rechecked my calibration on it a few months ago and it was still spot on 4 years later. The only thing that annoys me with the TV to this day is the lack of a VESA mount

Without actual long term studies that use a large sample size, much of what is being said in this thread is merely anecdotal and speculative. Even if there was such a study among real-world owners, it would be flawed since usage patterns would vary. And I doubt anyone is going to set up 1,000 OLED TVs in a lab environment to perform strict testing over a 5 year period to study what might or might not happen to the panels.

It's just funny because if you search for problems related to ANYTHING on the internet, you can and probably will find it. Lexus automobiles are renowned for their reliability, but I'm certain that I can head to Google right now and find people who have had issues with them.

This thread reminds me of when plasma TVs were finally affordable to the masses and it was common to see proponents of LCD TVs on crusades, publicly decrying plasmas and trying to warn people away from the horrible burn in and shortened lifespans of those panels. Now, some people did have issues but of those, how many of them only watched a couple of channels with a network logo displayed in the corner during most of the broadcast day in and day out? How many accidentally left a movie paused for hours and then complained about image retention? Most actual owners simply used the sets, enjoyed stunning image quality for the life of the TV (as we have with our Hitachi plasma), and were saddened when it became evident that manufacturers were abandoning the tech. The theoretical downsides of plasmas were known but (as a whole) rarely experienced by people using the sets normally. I suspect that is and will be the case with OLED sets as well.

Anyone following display tech over the past several years knows that OLED was regarded by many as the "holy grail" and the pinnacle of stunning image quality. It was what everyone using LCD displays was waiting for. The problem until somewhat recently was that they were out of reach from a price perspective and still had some issues to be worked out before they were ready for prime time. Judging by their affordability and availability, I believe that time has come; the tech has matured and continues to get better each year. How long they will reign supreme is yet to be seen - I am honesty excited to read about the other technologies in this thread, both the advancements in current LCD tech as well as the emissive QLED displays that supposedly won't have some of OLED's limitations (but may have others, as was the case for plasma vs. LCD). At the end of the day though, I am inclined to believe the glowing reviews from numerous reputable sites that say that if you just use an OLED normally, you won't have any problems. It's certainly comforting to hear from some of you that have owned them for years without issue. As I said earlier, I will gladly open my wallet for something else should my experience take a negative turn or if another display offers an experience that warrants it.

 

[dreamwriter]

What I posted today, and the experience of many people is hardly speculation, but rather lucid scientifci observation, and experience. Is there burn in? Yes. Is there banding? Yes. Do OLEDs age more rapidly than OLEDs? Yes. How many are affected has not been definitively tabulated.

Where I depart into speculation has to do with longevity. There is simply no way to know until they have been around for a bit.

When discussing technical problems and failures, there are always people who don't encounter problems. That is completely within expectation. Problems in manufactured products always affect a subset of owners. Not everyone who had a specific German car experienced the transmission spontaneously shifting from Park into Gear. But there were enough people who did to eventually bring the problem into public scrutiny, which forced resolution.

By the way, LG did not remove its own OLED TVs from South Korea's Incheon airport because of speculation, but rather because they had developed burn in.

 

[defaultluser]

I've had my B7 OLED 6 months and had no burn-in problems, even though I use this for my HTCP. But I knew what I was getting into.

I already run a black background, and browse mostly dark sites, so the pixels aren't consonantly being pushed to the limit.

I setup a 5-minute black screensaver to reduce the load on the pixels (and power consumption) when I'm just using it for music playback.

You have to assume the panel's built-in screen shift will already help with HUD burn-in from games and news networks bottom bars, so asking it to handle the Windows Task bar and the icons o your desktop is pretty much a given.

Luckily we do enough full-screen gaming and video playback that there's plenty of variation to prevent any stuck pixels. I wouldn't buy an OLED panel if all I was going to do was leave it on ESPN all day - those crawl bars will cause pixel bun-in over a long time of use. But if you're doing a little bit of everything, it will handle it without issue.

 

[dreamwriter]

I've had my B7 OLED 6 months and had no burn-in problems, even though I use this for my HTCP. But I knew what I was getting into.

I already run a black background, and browse mostly dark sites, so the pixels aren't consonantly being pushed to the limit.

I setup a 5-minute black screensaver to reduce the load on the pixels (and power consumption) when I'm just using it for music playback....

...But if you're doing a little bit of everything, it will handle it without issue.

That is a truly intelligent way to use these sets, and undoubtedly will have it's impact on longevity.

What piqued my interest in this thread was the original question about OLED and HDR, and I continue to think this is not the best use of OLED' great picture quality.

 

[DocNo]

Nah, the Q9FN sets from Samsung are pretty damn close to OLED in black level

In a Costco warehouse maybe. At home in a darkened or dark room? No comparison. Nothing is close to OLED - not even my Panasonic plasma.

The Microdot stuff Apple is working on is probably the only thing that will be able to compare and maybe even beat OLED, from what I have seen anyway.

 

[defaultluser]

That is a truly intelligent way to use these sets, and undoubtedly will have it's impact on longevity.

What piqued my interest in this thread was the original question about OLED and HDR, and I continue to think this is not the best use of OLED' great picture quality.

I can't say about OLED and HDR reducing lifespan significantly. The amount of HDR content is still pretty small, and we won't see that change until they convert the network broadcasts over to 4k HDR. Untill that happens, I watch maybe 10% of my content in HDR, and most of it is barely noticeable increases in brightness.

I think the original linked story was people complaining about using these to display fixed images in HDR, which of course would reduce the lifetime significantly:

Don’t use your OLED TV as a digital picture frame, a security camera monitor, or for displaying flight information at an airport.

Well fucking duh.

 

[DocNo]

Plasma pixels turn completely off and no backlight is needed. Plasma is truly black level as you can get. You can't get any blacker than plasma.

Yes, you can. Even my Panasonic plasma has a faint glow. It's really, really low but in a completely dark room with only a black signal going you can easily see the panel. With OLED you see NOTHING. Nothing at all.

If you are basing your opinions by looking at an OLED panel in anything other than a dark room, it's your perception that's at fault - not the tech.

I think you should understand that even oled needs a backlight to push through it and HDR just has lots of individual zones of backlights.

OLED is direct emissive, just like Plasma. Actually it's far more precise than plasma and with wider color gamut too.

It's a shame Plasma came to an end but the problem is that people didn't like huge actual glass sandwich panels and the cost to manufacture plasma was quite high.

Plasma's never looked as good on the showroom floor compared to LCD TV's with the brightness cranked to max playing oversaturated demo loops. That was the main problem with Plasma. Factor in the weight and size differences and for people looking only at superficial stats Plasma's look like a real turkey. At least OLED can hold it's own in demo loops on the showroom floor and are actually thinner than LCDs, but I still think they will struggle because most people either don't understand or just don't care why if they like movies or other content to look it's best OLED is all they should be considering.

When my Plasma finally ages enough that it's hard to calibrate I will replace it with OLED in a heartbeat. Fraction of the power, even better black performance, brighter during the day and when it comes to mounting it on the wall 1/4 the weight will be very nice too!

 

[Lateralus]

What I posted today, and the experience of many people is hardly speculation, but rather lucid scientifci observation, and experience. Is there burn in? Yes. Is there banding? Yes. Do OLEDs age more rapidly than OLEDs? Yes. How many are affected has not been definitively tabulated.

Where I depart into speculation has to do with longevity. There is simply no way to know until they have been around for a bit.

When discussing technical problems and failures, there are always people who don't encounter problems. That is completely within expectation. Problems in manufactured products always affect a subset of owners. Not everyone who had a specific German car experienced the transmission spontaneously shifting from Park into Gear. Byt there were enough people who did to eventually bring the problem into public scrutiny, which forced resolution.

I agree with much of what you're saying, but with 187 posts and nearly one quarter of those being in this thread alone talking about the perils of OLED, it's almost as if you work for someone who would benefit from OLED not being widely adopted, lol (please note I am kidding - you are probably just passionate about displays and have obviously kept up with the different tech both currently available and in development).

At the end of the day though, and where I agree with you, is that there are some real examples of problems and also that it's impossible to know what percentage of sets are affected. That's why I don't understand this huge push to cast awareness on something that cannot easily be proven. It's one thing to put the information out there that people should be aware of, but I've not seen any evidence yet that OLED is something to be avoided because of things that may or may not affect a large number of people. It's like what you said about German cars - I recall many owners of them over the years saying that they would never own one that's out of warranty, but I have to assume that many people are driving 10 year old BMWs and Mercs and Audis who aren't constantly at the dealership facing expensive repair bills. Some people have had horrible luck with them, others not so much. Even if you could poll every current owner of a German car and ask about major issues, you could get a percentage, but how many drove them 3,000 miles a year as opposed to 15,000? How many drove them hard, often? How many kept up with important maintenance? Impossible to ever know definitively. Just like we can say wow, there sure seem to be some reports of OLED burn in, but how did those people use their sets? And another variable that I think you brought up, how much can be attributed to panel variations where some were more prone to it than others?

I am aware of the thread over at AVS and while it's easy to point to a large thread and say it's indicative of something, it's impossible to know what percentage of owners that thread makes up (also keeping in mind that not every post there is a unique owner or experience). There are more than a few isolated cases, sure. But just tossing out numbers, even 500 or 800 or 1,000 unique posts claiming burn in is infinitesimally small compared to the number of people that own the sets. How many people have no issues and thus have no need to post on a forum? How many people do have issues and don't post about them? Impossible to say, but we do know that people are more likely to post about a problem in search of a resolution or to warn off others. So if you have burn in on your set that's a month or two old, you go to the internet to research the issue and chances are you'll land on a thread on one of the largest (if not the largest) AV forums and post there along with others in hopes that it'll be acknowledged if the issue catches enough attention. I am of the opinion that while it might seem like a big problem, it's likely that there is a legitimate issue for a comparatively small number of people (taken as a whole).

You're right in that we just won't truly know more until these have been out in the wild for a long time. I do not know if OLED will be the new LCD in that it's the new standard that will be in the majority of households in 5-10 years, or if other technologies will surpass it before it gains that kind of foothold (like with plasma vs. LCD, Betamax vs. VHS, HD DVD vs. Blu-ray, etc.). I guess it's possible that all of the professional reviewers are mistakenly recommending OLEDs as a safe buy right now, but I think that if there was data to support the fact that the panels would be plagued with burn in for the average consumer or wouldn't last, that would be known and advised.

All said, I acknowledge that some have had less than perfect experiences, as with most things. Please don't take my previous post as dismissing any issues as simply rumor and hearsay. But it is comforting to read the personal accounts from people who have had no such issues, as if it was widespread I think we'd be seeing and hearing more about it, as well as more recommendations to stay away. All I can do is continue to use mine (again, PC monitor here, so theoretically I should be likely to expose flaws as these weren't really designed for that) and see where the cards fall. I haven't used any of the newer competing sets from Sony, Samsung, etc. that are receiving high praise but I did come from one of the previous generation top-end Samsung quantum dot sets (JS9000) and the difference from that to this was striking so I'm holding until there is something markedly better or until I have an issue with this one. I'm very picky about displays as it's something that gets used 100% of the time when I'm in front of my PC, so it needs to be problem free and impress me in order for me to keep using it and not move on to something else. If there's permanent burn in or a noticeable reduction in luminescence or uniformity, that would be a dealbreaker for me.

I've had my B7 OLED 6 months and had no burn-in problems, even though I use this for my HTCP. But I knew what I was getting into.

I already run a black background, and browse mostly dark sites, so the pixels aren't consonantly being pushed to the limit.

I setup a 5-minute black screensaver to reduce the load on the pixels (and power consumption) when I'm just using it for music playback.

You have to assume the panel's built-in screen shift will already help with HUD burn-in from games and news networks bottom bars, so asking it to handle the Windows Task bar and the icons o your desktop is pretty much a given.

Luckily we do enough full-screen gaming and video playback that there's plenty of variation to prevent any stuck pixels. I wouldn't buy an OLED panel if all I was going to do was leave it on ESPN all day - those crawl bars will cause pixel bun-in over a long time of use. But if you're doing a little bit of everything, it will handle it without issue.

Great post. Modern OLEDs are supposed to be robust enough to handle most use cases without issue. I don't know that I have to, but like you I take extra precautions as it relates to settings and exercise care not to leave static elements on the screen for extended periods of time. Certainly nothing approaching rtings' burn in test, which they note as being extreme in order to try to "force" retention in an accelerated manner.

Another thing to check is your OLED light setting, if you haven't. Increasing the setting accelerates image retention, but I keep mine set below even the recommended threshold for PC monitor use because at higher settings I think my retinas would burn in way faster than the panel.

And yes, we have gotten somewhat off track with this whole discussion since this thread was about OLED + HDR. My overall use consists of little HDR, and my guess is that by the time HDR content on my particular display becomes common enough to where it'd be an actual concern regarding lifespan, if it even is (I have no desire or need to display static HDR content and the effects of HDR games/video will continue to be researched I'm sure), I'll have moved on to something else.

 

[DocNo]

One thing about burn in...If you want to look for it, display a completely white field on the screen.

Actually grey makes it a lot easier to spot burn in. The background on daringfireball.net is perfect to reveal screen issues.

 

[dreamwriter]

Well, I don't work for:

Anti OLED forces
A Competing Tech Company
Any Tech Company
Any Retailer
Any Adertiser
And neither gain nor lose a penny (or more than that) whether OLED succeeds or fails.

but thanks for the unsupported assumption and innuendo.

I reiterate, OLEDs do experience burn in, banding, and age more quickly than LEDs, and pretending they don't is flying in the face of the experience of a good number of consumers, and accumulating evidence that these problems exist.

 

[haste.]

Well, everyone has different preferences...but if you go into the advanced settings for the motion control, you can set it where it's not obnoxious, at least.

Exactly. Took quite a bit of time to give a "natural feeling" for me, but I've been viewing Panny Plasma's for a decade now prior to when I got the Samsung so my preference is evident.

 

[haste.]

Actually grey makes it a lot easier to spot burn in. The background on daringfireball.net is perfect to reveal screen issues.

Doc - not sure if you checked this out but they go thru cmyk and rgb with a grey throughout on their tests. It's pretty interesting. But assuming from your posts you seem to be in the same boat as me and if you aren't cranking to 100% and are a responsible OLED owner no concerns in the short term.

Oops, link helps: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-life-oled-burn-in-test

 

[dreamwriter]

OLED burn in problem gets more public
by Nick Farrell on29 May 2018


"LG Electronics has switched its 2018 model OLED TV on display at a South Korean airport to LCD due to burn-in problems, highlighting an under talked about problem for the technology...

. ...In this case highlighting the problems that OLED has, which few people seem to care about despite the fact that there have been rising complaints about burn-ins..."

https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/46399-oled-burn-in-problem-gets-more-public

 

[Lateralus]

Well, I don't work for:

Anti OLED forces
A Competing Tech Company
Any Tech Company
Any Retailer
Any Adertiser
And neither gain nor lose a penny (or more than that) whether OLED succeeds or fails.

but thanks for the unsupported assumption and innuendo.

I reiterate, OLEDs do experience burn in, banding, and age more quickly than LEDs, and pretending they don't is flying in the face of the experience of a good number of consumers, and accumulating evidence that these problems exist.

1 - I was kidding, and said as much.
2 - I didn't say that they didn't and never pretended that they don't, and again...I said as much. You might have read my post but you clearly didn't hear what I was saying.
3 - You seem miffed that people are enjoying their OLEDs and not worrying about things that might not ever be an issue in normal use...dare I say obsessed given the number of posts in this thread repeating the same things over and over.
4 - Lighten up and don't get so confrontational when information is posted that goes against your narrative. I have acknowledged that some sets have had issues and agreed with some of what you said, but there is no give on your end so I'm afraid further discussion will not be very productive.