Why Sweden Is Shifting To A 6-Hour Workday

[Gavv]

Or you reduce the workday by 2 hours and the same unproductive people are unproductive.

Sure eliminate 2 hours and believe that workers are going to be more productive. The reality is though the same distractions still exist and in a lot of cases will never be fixed.

More power to them if they think they can make it work.

 

[Skripka]

A 6 hour work week sounds lovely

So, France enacted the 35 hour work week 15 years ago now, and their economy has yet to collapse.

Maybe - just maybe - pushing that number to 30 can work too?

Remember, the theory here is that during long workdays, people are less productive. Studies have show that the longer hours we work, the more breaks we need to stay focused, and not drift off, or bee too tempted by social media

The theory is that you can reduce the workday by two hours in length and still get the same amount of work done, with the same amount of people.

We've been running sub-40 hours a week for decades (to dodge paying worker healthcare). Now jobs are sub-30 hours (to dodge paying worker healthcare).

Problem being we aren't lowering employee work weeks to make them happier/healthier/more-productive....employers are doing it to fck over their employees and force them into needing two or 3 30-hour a week jobs because none of them pay a living wage or benefits.

 

[Exavior]

A 6 hour work week sounds lovely

So, France enacted the 35 hour work week 15 years ago now, and their economy has yet to collapse.

Maybe - just maybe - pushing that number to 30 can work too?

Remember, the theory here is that during long workdays, people are less productive. Studies have show that the longer hours we work, the more breaks we need to stay focused, and not drift off, or bee too tempted by social media

The theory is that you can reduce the workday by two hours in length and still get the same amount of work done, with the same amount of people.

Current generation coming into the work force already spend 6 hours on facebook, twitter and other social media sites. If you cut their hours down to 6 how will they have time to do any work?

 

[Exavior]

The one problem with this is the type of jobs you are looking at. Something like Tech support or customer service, you will not get as much done. Anything that you work around the clock, you need more people hired then to get work done. So instead of three 8 hour shifts, you now have four 6 hour shifts. Which means you need 1 extra shift worth of workers.

Some places do well with shorter work hours. Then you have places like Greece where they don't do as well.

Personally, I need more than 40 hours a week, but that is because of having too much on my plate than anything else.

 

[kbrickley]

One other complication in the USA for a 30 hour week would be globalization ... in my jobs I often have to interact with counterparts in Europe and Asia ... due to the time differences that tends to involve EU folks in the morning and Asian folks in the evening ... if you had a job with this requirement you would need to work a split shift (and provide minimal support for the Americas) or work the hours required to overlap with all three regions (Americas, Europe, and Asia)

 

[Yakk]

6 hour days is not a bad idea for certain jobs. Unfortunately in many corporate cultures in NA it will need a major shift in thinking. I've seen it so often, people NEED to feel overwhelmed with work to feel they accomplished important work.

As a manager give your staff the same work in smaller, organized, pieces and they don't feel they accomplished as much, even if they actually did accomplish more work because it was properly organized at the management level before being assigned. It's an odd phenomena, but I keep seeing it again and again; being overwhelmed makes people feel the work they do get done is more important. And because it's unorganized they need to spend more time doing it... for no good reason really.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

We've been running sub-40 hours a week for decades (to dodge paying worker healthcare). Now jobs are sub-30 hours (to dodge paying worker healthcare).

Problem being we aren't lowering employee work weeks to make them happier/healthier/more-productive....employers are doing it to fck over their employees and force them into needing two or 3 30-hour a week jobs because none of them pay a living wage or benefits.

Well, the intent would be to shift the expectation of what full time is. Go to work, get as much done as you would in 8 hours, in 6 hours and then go home. (but waste time on your phone or on Facebook, and you're canned)

We would have to remove the exemptions from the law that encourage companies to screw over employees and give them fewer hours, or hire contractors rather than full time workers, for this to be effective.

The one problem with this is the type of jobs you are looking at. Something like Tech support or customer service, you will not get as much done. Anything that you work around the clock, you need more people hired then to get work done. So instead of three 8 hour shifts, you now have four 6 hour shifts. Which means you need 1 extra shift worth of workers.

This is true, jobs in which "being there" is a huge part of the value provided will be tougher to adapt to this model.

It also probably won't be very effective for assembly type work.

Really where this will be the most effective will be for STEM, administrative and creative workers. You know, engineers, buyers, planners, project managers, scientists, production control associates, HR associates, the type of office workers for whom the promise of a 40 hour work week has been a sham all along, as the workload requires stay well more than that.

Honestly, since myself, all of my family and pretty much everyone I know fall into the "college educated, go to work in an office all day" category of people, I sometimes forget everyone else

For the "presence is part of the value" type workers, there would likely be an impact to business of shifting like this, and since they are generally paid by the hour, they probably would not like it very much either. Something else would have to change here.

The truth is that the American workforce is very much like the Amazon workforce, but not as extreme. Everyone is expected to come in and give it their all all the time, and put in the extra hours and hopefully do better than their peers and get a promotion and make more money.

That's great for those people who self-identify with their careers. Most of us just want a job where we can show up, and leave at the end of the day, not have to work overtime casual OR paid, and then go home and do the stuff we REALLY like doing, and that should be fine. We shouldn't all have to identify with our work, and have our work be our lives. Our work is the necessary evil that lets us live the parts of our lives we really like! And that should be fine.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

The irony of all this - of course - is that while I am typing this, I am procrastinating from the work I took home to get done over the weekend, because I have a deadline on Monday and I wasn't done yet.

And no, I'm not getting paid for this time.

 

[Skripka]

Well, the intent would be to shift the expectation of what full time is. Go to work, get as much done as you would in 8 hours, in 6 hours and then go home. (but waste time on your phone or on Facebook, and you're canned)

We would have to remove the exemptions from the law that encourage companies to screw over employees and give them fewer hours, or hire contractors rather than full time workers, for this to be effective.
.

Intent is all well and good...but the bastard CEOs will find a way out of it.

Like the lowering of the required hours to get benefits at your job. Sounded great lowing the bar from 40 to 29 in order to get health insurance. Then all the accountants everywhere did some arithmetic the next day and realised by cutting all their 39.5 hour/week employees down to 28.5 they'd still save money on the corporate bottom line....and underemployed folks are right back where they started.

 

[tetris42]

It's a well known fact that over time worker efficiency keeps going up (in larger part due to technology), but workers see very little of the efficiency gain in rewards to themselves. All of the rewards from these productivity boosts go to upper management and investors.

Now, many might say that a large part of these productivity gains are due to shareholder investments in technology, and as such it is only fair for the benefits of the productivity gains to go to shareholders.

While I mostly agree here, this poses a real big problem.

As more and more jobs are automated and able to be performed by machines, if we keep this mantra that shareholders invest in technology to boost productivity, and keep all the rewards of that productivity boost, it will eventually result in a massive underclass unable to find work, and a minuscule super-class holding all the wealth.

We've already seen this on a small scale, and it promises to only continue in this way.

John Maynard Keynes famously predicted his grandchildren would only need to work 15 hour work weeks due to the amazing productivity boosts technology imply, but he was under the assumption that the rewards of productivity and efficiency gains would be shared, in large part due to the much stronger labor movement of the time.

So, if we do not regulate, how do we ensure that this dismal post apocalyptic future where people like us are all dirt poor and a small number of super wealthy are the only ones to have anything doesn't occur?

I think the best course of action is just to keep doing what we're doing and yell socialism anytime we try to fix anything.

 

[Nolan7689]

I would be all for a 10 hour a day, 4 day work week, but being in I.T as we all know, we work a 365 day year 24/7...

I work the 4-10 schedule (construction) and its frankly fucking awful for numerous reasons. Personally those extra two hours really drag and wear me out. I am far more tired daily compared to 5-8s. Work starts at 7, which on a 10 hour day by the time I get home it feels like the day is over. I feel like I have no time (or energy) to do anything. I have to attempt to do everything on Friday....unless we have overtime. Can't even make the bank weekly then.

Same hours and money, less energy and what feels like less free time. And we have a BS break scheduled. Two half hour breaks, so no matter the weather we're expected to be working for 3 straight hours outside 3 times a day. The last thing that sucks is that once upon a time the union fought for a fucking 40 hour 5 day work week, fought and died for that and overtime pay for anything over. Now we're giving them an extra two fucking hours each day for straight time.

Well that was a pointless rant.

I'd be down for 6 hour days, but I'm careful with my money, I can live off 30 hours unlike most. I know for a fact in my trade fewer hours don't mean more productivity, in my opinion 8 hours has been the standard for a long time because it's a very reasonable amount for an employer to ask. 10 and 12 and even 16 hours can boost productivity in the short term but it wears thin pretty quick.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I think the best course of action is just to keep doing what we're doing and yell socialism anytime we try to fix anything.

Well, the times are a-changin.

A self described Socialist raised $26M in small donations last quarter, and is currently leading polls for the Democratic nomination in New Hampshire, and is pretty close in Iowa.

Maybe - just maybe - the days of Senator McCarthy's influence, the red scare and using Socialism as a pejorative in american politics are coming to an end?

 

[Nolan7689]

Well, the times are a-changin.

A self described Socialist raised $26M in small donations last quarter, and is currently leading polls for the Democratic nomination in New Hampshire, and is pretty close in Iowa.

Maybe - just maybe - the days of Senator McCarthy's influence, the red scare and using Socialism as a pejorative in american politics are coming to an end?

Hopefully. I'm tired of McCarthyism, it's filtered down to the ignorant masses who ironically don't seem to have ever heard of McCarthy.

 

[Ashbringer]

We've been running sub-40 hours a week for decades (to dodge paying worker healthcare). Now jobs are sub-30 hours (to dodge paying worker healthcare).

Problem being we aren't lowering employee work weeks to make them happier/healthier/more-productive....employers are doing it to fck over their employees and force them into needing two or 3 30-hour a week jobs because none of them pay a living wage or benefits.

That's why Obamacare was a good start. The UK for example could probably do the 6 hour work day because they have universal health care. You're covered no matter what. America needs universal health care that way we aren't forcing people into a 6+hour work days.

 

[mavrocket]

I know plenty of people who would love to work a 6 hour day for 5 days a week here in the US.

However, with this "robust" /s recovery, they cannot even find a full time job to work 8 hours a day.

So much ignorance in this thread. Just like most threads...

 

[mavrocket]

That's why Obamacare was a good start. The UK for example could probably do the 6 hour work day because they have universal health care. You're covered no matter what. America needs universal health care that way we aren't forcing people into a 6+hour work days.

And where are you going to get the money to pay for that?

Don't even think to respond with some BS about the government could do it cheaper than all the cut-rate docs who are already doing it as cheap as they can.

 

[mavrocket]

Well, the times are a-changin.

A self described Socialist raised $26M in small donations last quarter, and is currently leading polls for the Democratic nomination in New Hampshire, and is pretty close in Iowa.

Maybe - just maybe - the days of Senator McCarthy's influence, the red scare and using Socialism as a pejorative in american politics are coming to an end?

The only reason a socialist is doing so well is because of all the ignorant morons who never learned history and how socialism ultimately leads to economic failure.

Look at Europe. They are doing just peachy on the brink of catastrophic bankruptcy.

 

[Skripka]

The only reason a socialist is doing so well is because of all the ignorant morons who never learned history and how socialism ultimately leads to economic failure.

Look at Europe. They are doing just peachy on the brink of catastrophic bankruptcy.

As opposed to us, who have not only sold our great great grandchildren into servitude in China to pay for Reagan's Star Wars and Bush's wars...and after doing so want to vote to shut down the entire government over Planned Parenthood..

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Look at Europe. They are doing just peachy on the brink of catastrophic bankruptcy.

Europe is in trouble because of the irresponsible actions of the likes of Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal.

The rest of Europe would be relatively fine if not dragged down by those states that took OK WAAY too much public debt compared to their GNP.

That, and the migrant crisis is also starting to take its toll.

The Scandinavian states renwoend for their socialism are doing great comparatively speaking.

Having a complete Soviet style planned economy will always fail, I agree. It is only a matter of time. This is not what European style socialism is about though. It is a capitalist system with a strong social safety net, and really is a model for all nations.

Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. did not become the wealthiest nation on the planet due to its unfettered laissez faire capitalism. Its era of massive growth came at a time when. The rest of the world was still recovering from having their economies ravaged by WWII.

We've really only been keeping pace since the 70ss if you measure what really counts, like median family income.

I should note that our biggest period of growth was during the era of American socialism, namely the New Deal.

 

[Nenu]

Those countries should not have been allowed to join the EU.
They fucked themselves over.

 

[nb14]

This will be interesting to see how it works out.
People who are paid by the hour should be subsidised though.
The less time we work the better IMO.

 

[Rob94hawk]

Pussies.
I do 12 hour shifts. Nights. Been 25 years now.
Can still rep 225 lbs and run the 5k.
And I'll still outlive you.

 

[Nenu]

There is another potential upside.
Those businesses that can support this change without suffering will have more free hours/space to employ more workers.
They could use this to further expand without the usual costs.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Those countries should not have been allowed to join the EU.
They fucked themselves over.

Agreed. Hindsight being what it is, there ought to have been some form of debt limit linked to a percentage of GDP requirement to enter and remain in the Euro zone.

...and now Europe is paying for it.

There eis nothing wrong with maintaining a responsible percentage of your GDP in national debt, but she. you don't have much in the way of industry, like Greece, you can't have as large of a public sector as they have had.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Pussies.
I do 12 hour shifts. Nights. Been 25 years now.
Can still rep 225 lbs and run the 5k.
And I'll still outlive you.

Congratulations. You live your life to work and go to the gym.

I hope that makes you happy.

To me that sounds like a pretty sad existence.

 

[BlankIt]

I work a 12 hr shift, 4 days a week. I get fri sat and sunday off.

 

[qbanb8582]

In the salaried world of US corporate employment, there is an expectation that you work a minimum of 60 hours a week. That means 10 hour days if you're not willing (and able to decline) working on the weekend. If anyone in the department is working less than that, either they get more dumped on their desk or rounds of layoffs ensue until everyone's grinding their lives away to keep their career alive.

Which is why I'm so much happier in my hourly rate job then my previous salary job. Its now twice the pay for almost half the work. I didn't like it because I found myself sticking around trying to look "busy" even though I had all my shit done.

 

[Grahamkracka]

In the salaried world of US corporate employment, there is an expectation that you work a minimum of 60 hours a week. That means 10 hour days if you're not willing (and able to decline) working on the weekend. If anyone in the department is working less than that, either they get more dumped on their desk or rounds of layoffs ensue until everyone's grinding their lives away to keep their career alive.

I'm a salaried engineer in a big bad US corporation. I work 9 hour days with every other Friday (plus weekends, obviously) off. If my boss catches me (or anyone else) beyond 9 hours, he will kick us out. There ARE some companies that give a shit about work/life balance.

 

[nutzo]

The idea that poor people are lazy and that's what makes them poor is a fallacy.

No, it's not fallacy, it's largely true.

They also tend to make poor choices, like dropping out of school, smoking, doing drugs, having kids they can't afford to support, etc.


The secret to success really isn't that difficult, it just requires a lot of hard work, and delayed gratification.
Graduate from school, get a job and work hard, wait to get married until you can afford it, wait to have kids, stay married.

 

[Deleted member 204526]

No, it's not fallacy, it's largely true.

They also tend to make poor choices, like dropping out of school, smoking, doing drugs, having kids they can't afford to support, etc.


The secret to success really isn't that difficult, it just requires a lot of hard work, and delayed gratification.
Graduate from school, get a job and work hard, wait to get married until you can afford it, wait to have kids, stay married.

Anecdotal—but a good anecdote since I grew up in one of the very poorest parts of the nation in the Appalachian hills—but I have never known a perpetually poor person who wasn't sorry as whale shit or an idiot (or both). Everyone I've known—myself included—who had a good work ethic and a sense of responsibility eventually did alright for themselves.

Yes, I am sure there are some few hard working and responsible people out there who the universe conspires to keep poor through extended runs of extraordinary bad luck, but I guarantee they are extremely few in number.

 

[Ashbringer]

And where are you going to get the money to pay for that?

Don't even think to respond with some BS about the government could do it cheaper than all the cut-rate docs who are already doing it as cheap as they can.

Ok I won't. Instead I ask you how does the UK, Canada, France, Japan, and Australia do it? They pay less for health care and rank higher than USA.

 

[wirk]

Ok I won't. Instead I ask you how does the UK, Canada, France, Japan, and Australia do it? They pay less for health care and rank higher than USA.

But the US medical doctors, insurance industry and other in the health care sector are the fatest cats in the world, that must be paid somehow. Be proud .

 

[Rob94hawk]

Congratulations. You live your life to work and go to the gym.

I hope that makes you happy.

To me that sounds like a pretty sad existence.

You determined it to be a sad existence just based on that?

Sounds like someone is jealous cause he can't get anything other than a blow up doll.

Seems to me the only joke around here is you. Fatty.

 

[Deathroned]

6-hour work day means more to to spend playing with Swedish women.

Do you have a prison wish or something.

 

[Deathroned]

You determined it to be a sad existence just based on that?

Sounds like someone is jealous cause he can't get anything other than a blow up doll.

Seems to me the only joke around here is you. Fatty.

Leave him be. Zara is your typical American beta male.

 

[dcds1]

Personally I feel the exact opposite about the shorter work days. In the summer time we work 4-10 hour days and in the winter time we go back to 5-8 hour days. The difference in those 2 hours is a lot. You can actually get more done in the 10 hour day then you can in a 8 hour day. The time you spend to go to the job site, get all the equipment up and running, and then get started working, and then shutting down the equipment at the end of the day, that time doesn't change.
A 6 hour day would mean only around 4.5 hours of work in a day for what we do, road repair and maintenance. That or the equipment would start getting abused more and not be getting its daily service it needs.

 

[krotch]

Agreed. Hindsight being what it is, there ought to have been some form of debt limit linked to a percentage of GDP requirement to enter and remain in the Euro zone.

...and now Europe is paying for it.

There eis nothing wrong with maintaining a responsible percentage of your GDP in national debt, but she. you don't have much in the way of industry, like Greece, you can't have as large of a public sector as they have had.

FYI, there are economical requirements to join the EU. Places like Greece lied about it and hid their finances in a variety of different ways.

 

[Nenu]

I was made aware that the EU also disregarded or changed some of the basic requirements for joining as well, that reduced the margin of safety.
Also that they were aware of Greece issues but sought to hide them.
Not sure of the truth but some decisions look very rash.

 

[Nenu]

I was made aware that the EU also disregarded or changed some of the basic requirements for joining as well, that reduced the margin of safety.
Also that they were aware of at least some of Greece issues but sought to hide them.
Not sure of the truth but some decisions look very rash.

 

[Dekoth-E-]

No, it's not fallacy, it's largely true.

They also tend to make poor choices, like dropping out of school, smoking, doing drugs, having kids they can't afford to support, etc.


The secret to success really isn't that difficult, it just requires a lot of hard work, and delayed gratification.
Graduate from school, get a job and work hard, wait to get married until you can afford it, wait to have kids, stay married.

I largely agree outside the get married part. Marriage does a lot of things, helping you build wealth isn't one of them.