Why not Dell 8400?

[Scali]

Ok pxc you got me, never realised there were that few fans in his system going by the amount of noise it put out. My system actually has 5 fans, however it is much much quieter and still runs cooler. His one actually heats up the room that it's in. Most of this heat is coming from the powersupply, so theres obviously something dubious about whatever brand they use.

Or he could just be having bad luck and have a faulty unit. These things happen, even with the best brands in the world. Only if it's a structural thing, you can say there's something wrong. Don't base everything on a single unit.

 

[selizo]

Dell 8400s are pretty good, mine perfroms flawlessly in terms of reliability. I did screw up some driver installations but thats user error and not Dells. I have 2 harddrives, X800XL and dvd+rw, and a cd rom. I have no stability issues and if anyone cares, it scores 48xx 3d05 marks which is among the highest with stock speeds with everything. Using FM's comparasion, my X800Xl even beats out some overclocked systems....

 

[Dan_D]

Holy jeebus, this is a long one.

The cases are metal. Some cases have plastic panels covering the sides. Why? It keeps the case quieter.

Dell hasn't used a "proprietary" PSU since the Pentium 3 models *years* ago. All P4 systems use standard 20 or 24-pin ATX 12v PSUs. I thought this was a rumor that died years ago. *IF* (with an emphasis on if) you worked on these systems as you claimed, you should easily be able to recognize a standard ATX PSU pinout.

The parts are standard. Nothing is "cheapened". You can install drivers from the manufacturer if you want. I do since the manufacturer tends to have newer drivers. nvidia "created" the 6800GTO, not Dell. nvidia said it has 12 pipelines enabled on the NV45 core, so that's what it ships with. Creative sells both the full and value edition (fewer connectors) cards. The same models wind up in Dell systems. In fact, the *retail* Creative (Audigy 2 line and others) sound cards come with a strange white connector on top. Guess where that goes to? A Dell front panel!

Dell covers on-site service for both parts and labor for desktops. The only Dell warranty that has mail in service is the base laptop warranty... and Dell picks up and returns the laptops in under a week for no charge. ALL desktops have on-site service included for hardware problems. Software problems of course just get phone support, which i agree is pretty lame. Sadly, their phone support is consistently ranked #2 by a couple of percent behind Apple. FYI, that means that all other PC manufacturer support is WORSE than that, a fact I don't find hard to believe.

C'mon, don't make up stuff if you want to complain about Dell.

The parts are different versions than the standard ones and often are missing hardware. Look at a Dell SB Live and a Retail SB Live. They are missing things. On those model cards I have tried to download drivers from Creative labs, when you key in the CT model number, the web site will give you a page that tells you that the drive must be obtained form the original manufacturer and is unsupported by Creative.

The thing I have against the 6800GTO is the blurry distinction between those and 6800GT's. No one else but Dell sells the 6800GTO. Not that I've ever seen Alot of people buy them not realizing they are getting what might as well be a 6800NU. My SB Audigy 2 is a retail card and has no white connector on it at all. In the past there have been 3Com modems and Sound cards where the retail drivers would *NOT* work on the Dell part. I didn't say that all the Dell hardware was like that. But in many cases even today, you get neutered hardware. This is a fact. I know the 6800GTO card will work with standard nvidia drivers. I never said otherwise. Many of the other hardware devices aren't so easy though.

Notice I said some models came with the proprietary PSU. I wasn't making a distinction between P3 and P4 models. Perhaps I should have. But I didn't. As far as the power supply goes, while the new ones are indeed standard 20 pin or 24 pin the fan grills are reversed and the way the back of the case is, you have to take a dremel to them to make a standard PSU fit where the fan isn't blocked and the power port isn't obstructed. Then you have to use a drill to tap the proper screw holes.

Furthermore the cases flex too much and they are covered in cheap plastic. I didn't say there wasn't any metal on them or in them at all. But as far as cases go the design leaves much to be desired. I can't stand the way the drive bays are made and I hate the rails. Just personal preference.

I personally have never investigated the warranty, but many customers come to me telling me what a problem it was to get Dell to take the system or that it would be gone for awhile. Implying they couldn't get onsite support for some reason. It happens frequently. Like two times a week easy.

For a tech shop that doesn't service Dell's under warranty we see ALOT of them. Many of which should be covered under Dell warranty.

 

[pxc]

The parts are different versions than the standard ones and often are missing hardware. Look at a Dell SB Live and a Retail SB Live.

You mean that Dell sells the "sb live value edition"? Yep, creative sells that too. The regular SB Live drivers install. One of my 2 8400s came with one. The problem isn't that Dell sells it, it's that you don't even know what cards Creative offers in retail.

The thing I have against the 6800GTO is the blurry distinction between those and 6800GT's. No one else but Dell sells the 6800GTO. Not that I've ever seen Alot of people buy them not realizing they are getting what might as well be a 6800NU.

The fact remains that nvidia created the cards and the specs. Blaming Dell for it is ridiculous. The specs for the 6800GTO were available right during configuration. The differences between the old 6800nu (12 pipeline NV40) and 6800GTO (12 pipeline NV45) are: the original 6800nu is an AGP card and the 6800GTO is a PCI-E card (when the 6800GTO was introduced an AGP 6800nu wasn't an option for the same system), the 6800GTO has much faster GDDR3 memory, the 6800GTO has 256MB not 128MB like the 6800nu. Too bad that looks the same to you.

My SB Audigy 2 is a retail card and has no white connector on it at all.

My last 2 retail creative Audigy 2 ZS cards do and the 10 pin connector is even pictured right on the retail box. I have it right in front of me. Would you like me to scan it? You shouldn't need that since you also have a retail Audigy 2 ZS that you can verify (LOL).

In the past there have been 3Com modems and Sound cards where the retail drivers would *NOT* work on the Dell part.

Good that you backtracked because the statement is simply not true. Selecting the right drivers to install is a basic skill for a tech. Too bad some can't manage that simple task.

As far as the power supply goes, while the new ones are indeed standard 20 pin or 24 pin the fan grills are reversed and the way the back of the case is, you have to take a dremel to them to make a standard PSU fit where the fan isn't blocked and the power port isn't obstructed. Then you have to use a drill to tap the proper screw holes.

Another completely false, ridiculous statement. The only thing that doesn't fit is if the replacement ATX PSU has a rear power switch since there's no cut out for it. No dremel is required to put another ATX PSU in the case except if it has a rear power switch.

Furthermore the cases flex too much and they are covered in cheap plastic. I didn't say there wasn't any metal on them or in them at all. But as far as cases go the design leaves much to be desired. I can't stand the way the drive bays are made and I hate the rails. Just personal preference.

Technically it's a polycarbonite and it doesn't flex at all (only 1 side is removeable on the 4 slot case and the rest is riveted together, the clamshell 5 slot case has clips on the top and bottom). I like the drive rails on the 5 slot cases (the 4 slot cases don't use plastic covers or drive rails). The 5 slot case has a great design. It's strange to read someone so "knowledgeable" complain about it. Tool-free, swings open 90 degrees, cables routed neatly. It's the easiest case to work in that i ever had.

I personally have never investigated the warranty, but many customers come to me telling me what a problem it was to get Dell to take the system or that it would be gone for awhile. Implying they couldn't get onsite support for some reason. It happens frequently. Like two times a week easy.

Your unfamiliarity with even the basic parts of the systems make me question how much you know at all. Saying that desktops have mail in service was the big clue you didn't know what you were talking about.

 

[Brucee]

Check the outlet at the end of hours. They add stuff then. You can get killer deals.

Bought a 8400 with a P4 650, 1GB Ram, 80GB HD, and x850xt PE card for $860. The CPU and vidcard itself retails at over 1000 bucks.

where do I check it out. Do you have link?

 

[elfletcho]

Just at the dell outlet store.

outlet.us.dell.com

 

[Gullop]

I own a Dell 8300, and i would if you need a pre-built system i would recommend it.

The few problems i have come across are:

• The PSU is different to ones you buy from the shops, it is the otherway round and doesn't have a switch, so i had to cut off the back which was suprisingley hard.
• The case opens retarded(like a book), which is very annoying.
• Computer makes a racket, one fan to cool the whole computer(minus the PSU, obviously).
• The PSU sucks.

Otherwise its pretty sound, but don't listen to me, i know feck all about computers.

 

[Big Worm]

Only noobs that feel the need to bash large prebuilt companies like Dell.

Go for it, there systems are about the best out of all the prebuilt companies.

 

[CrazyCurl]

Personally I would build my own computer but thats only because I like to do it, its fun, and I have the knowledge to do so. However at work I am currently a 1 man show with business continuity plans, 10 servers, image systems, HIPAA compliance, switches, routers, printers, copiers, paperless board meetings, and various other management tasks to do. I have 35 dell optiplexes, 2 precision 240 and 3 precision 360 and several dell inspiron notebooks.

Actually reading this thread has made me realize I have not had a single hardware related problem with any of those machines in the 3 years I have had them so far except the occasional mouse or keyboard failure. I have not had to change any innards of the computers yet and I am very satisfied with them as of right now.

We are running on a 3 - 5 year cycle for updating computers and as of right now this being the third year I have no plans to upgrade any of them as of yet.

They are 2.4 ghz machines with 512 meg of ram and users constantly have atleast 4 different screens open at once.

I always say if you are not tech savvy and need some type of support to get a manufacture's computer. Dealing with any kind of tech support is not always a pleasant experiece but atleast its there if you need it.

 

[Dan_D]

You mean that Dell sells the "sb live value edition"? Yep, creative sells that too. The regular SB Live drivers install. One of my 2 8400s came with one. The problem isn't that Dell sells it, it's that you don't even know what cards Creative offers in retail.

The fact remains that nvidia created the cards and the specs. Blaming Dell for it is ridiculous. The specs for the 6800GTO were available right during configuration. The differences between the old 6800nu (12 pipeline NV40) and 6800GTO (12 pipeline NV45) are: the original 6800nu is an AGP card and the 6800GTO is a PCI-E card (when the 6800GTO was introduced an AGP 6800nu wasn't an option for the same system), the 6800GTO has much faster GDDR3 memory, the 6800GTO has 256MB not 128MB like the 6800nu. Too bad that looks the same to you.

My last 2 retail creative Audigy 2 ZS cards do and the 10 pin connector is even pictured right on the retail box. I have it right in front of me. Would you like me to scan it? You shouldn't need that since you also have a retail Audigy 2 ZS that you can verify (LOL).

Good that you backtracked because the statement is simply not true. Selecting the right drivers to install is a basic skill for a tech. Too bad some can't manage that simple task.

Another completely false, ridiculous statement. The only thing that doesn't fit is if the replacement ATX PSU has a rear power switch since there's no cut out for it. No dremel is required to put another ATX PSU in the case except if it has a rear power switch.

Technically it's a polycarbonite and it doesn't flex at all (only 1 side is removeable on the 4 slot case and the rest is riveted together, the clamshell 5 slot case has clips on the top and bottom). I like the drive rails on the 5 slot cases (the 4 slot cases don't use plastic covers or drive rails). The 5 slot case has a great design. It's strange to read someone so "knowledgeable" complain about it. Tool-free, swings open 90 degrees, cables routed neatly. It's the easiest case to work in that i ever had.

Your unfamiliarity with even the basic parts of the systems make me question how much you know at all. Saying that desktops have mail in service was the big clue you didn't know what you were talking about.

I am plenty familiar with the Dell's. I work on alot of Opti Plex and Dimension desktops. Also my SB Audigy 2 ZS DOESN'T HAVE the connector you speak off. Also there ARE many SB cards in the Dells that won't take the retail drivers.

I won't argue this with you anymore. Chances are I've worked on alot more computers than you. I've been doing it for 8 years in high volume service centers.

I wish I could remember the specific models, but there are Dell cases that DO NOT take standard power supplies.

Do NOT call me a liar or tell me I do not know what I am doing. Maybe I've run into different models than you. Again I am not necessarily talking about current production models. I work on alot of them and I don't pay attention to whats inside them. They are Dells are rarely are they high end ones. I do not care what's in them as I am not excited to see them.

And as I've said, I DIDN'T check out the Dell warranty. I just based that on what a bunch of customers tell me. I don't care about the Dell warranty, and I just do to the systems what these people tell me to do with them. End of story.

As far as the Dell 6800GTO, I simply don't like it. Dell's the only one who sells them. It doesn't matter. I NEVER said they wouldn't work with the NVidia drivers. I mentioned sound cards and modems specifically. NOTHING ELSE. I wish I could remember the exact model of SB Live card that only takes Dell drivers. They do exist and so do the modems, if you can't prove they don't then quit ripping on me. You don't know as much as you think you do. I am tired of you telling me the that.

I wish I had a camera, I'd take pics of the machines next time I see some more of them with reversed fans and power plugs. They may be Optiplex only and not the Dimension. I am really not sure. Also I'd love to take a picture of my sound card as there is no white connector like you described at all.So I guess you don't know every card Creative sells retail either?

I also didn't backtrack on any statement that I recall. I'm through arguing with you.

For someone who "knows what they are doing" why the hell are you buying Dells?

 

[Fark_Maniac]

This is what I've found out about Dells

My parents bought some Dell about a year ago. I forget the exact model, but it had a P4 2.4 w/ 1GB of ram and a SATA hard drive. Well anyway, it arrived DOA. That night I spent 3 hours on the phone with their tech support (requiring 4 beers or so...) that I swear a retarded monkey could do better. They had no tech knowledge and forced me to go thorugh their little routine 3 damned times cause their phone system kept hanging up on me...go Dell. They had purchased "next day parts and labor." This is what it means translated: Tomorrow, we'll ship out the part to our authorized tech support in your area (which will take a few days), then once he has the part, he will contact you to setup an appointment. I found it oddly humorous that "Next Day Parts & Labor" turns into 2 weeks. Somehow in the process, they got shipped 2 machines instead of one replacement. For shits and giggles, I set them both up....one of them was also DOA doing the same thing.
** The above relates to a specific model that Dell ran. It was verified by one of their higher tiered techs that that model has a motherboard issue and that they were having very bad returns on that model."

I worked at a university where we were being forced to start using Dell GX280's. They were snappy machines, but I did find a few things that unsettled me. The PSU was not standard. When supporting up to 600 machines in a department that relies on heavy use of computers....PSUs tend to fail. We could not put an aftermarket unit in...that sucked.
While working on one, I had it upright as it normally stands and decided to just slide/spin it. Well, I'm pretty sure I broke the case doing this as one of the latches popped and that side never did want to close all the way.


These experiences with Dell has taught me some ideals. *IF* I had to buy Dell machines, I'm going to research said model for return rates and other issues. *IF* I had the choice, I'd purchase assembled machines using *ALL* aftermarket/standard parts for ease of part replacement. It is highly irritating being the middle man having a broken PC sitting there waiting on parts while the user constantly probes when their machine will be ready. When it would have just been easier to grab a spare part and slap it in and send it on its way.
Dells are for Mom & Dads with no critical files for business. Aftermarket PCs are for modularity.

Granted, the OP is a single person. The machine spec'd out should do the individual fine....it just gets rougher to deal with Dells when you have large numbers of them to support.

 

[pxc]

Only noobs that feel the need to bash large prebuilt companies like Dell.

Yep. I think it is almost a mental illness. Fact goes out the window and is substituted by made up stuff. Pretty sad.

 

[Dan_D]

Yep. I think it is almost a mental illness. Fact goes out the window and is substituted by made up stuff. Pretty sad.

Made up my ass. I am looking at a Dell Dimension 4300 tower RIGHT now in the tech shop. Most standard PSU's will not fit in that case without modding it. Simple as that. A standard PSU would fit in this case, if there was a space cut out for a rear power switch. There isn't however. While there are plenty of PSU's that would fit it, most of the better brands of PSU have a power switch on the back.

There are plenty of worse brands out there. I am not saying Dell is a bad brand. They are better than most if not all retail brands in most respects.

Personally if I had to buy pre-built machines for a business or something I'd go with HP workstations. They are reliable and easy to work on. As far as warranty and support, I've had parts delivered in four hours for servers and next business day for workstations. Not they'll ship it next day, but the part actually arrives next day around 9-10am as long as you get your part order in before 2PM.

 

[pxc]

Made up my ass. I am looking at a Dell Dimension 4300 tower RIGHT now in the tech shop. Most standard PSU's will not fit in that case without modding it. Simple as that. A standard PSU would fit in this case, if there was a space cut out for a rear power switch. There isn't however.

You're hilarious. A couple of posts ago you said the fan and power cord cutout were in a non-standard place and needed a dremel to fit (did you try to put it in upside down before? ). When I pointed out the obvious lie that was and told *you* that only ATX PSUs with power switches on the back won't fit, you changed your story. LOL

The conversation is right above. Glad to see that you're finally accepting the truth now instead of making up stuff.

But I get the point. You hate Dells and no facts will get in your way.

 

[elfletcho]

pxc, the only thing you need to know is this guy prefers HP machines over Dell in the prebuilt area. I don't think facts are a big part of his thinking.

 

[BlindedByScience]

I'm at work looking at the Dell 530 (Dual Xeon's) I've had for about three years now. Of course there's no OC, nor do I game at work, but this thing typically runs about ten windows of apps (CAD / circuit simulation / MSOffice / Outlook / etc.) and has been 100% solid. For "basic" systems or workstations, they seem pretty solid. I don't have any experience with their "performance" machines but based on my experience with this one, I've got no rocks to throw.

Regards - B.B.S.

 

[Dan_D]

You're hilarious. A couple of posts ago you said the fan and power cord cutout were in a non-standard place and needed a dremel to fit (did you try to put it in upside down before? ). When I pointed out the obvious lie that was and told *you* that only ATX PSUs with power switches on the back won't fit, you changed your story. LOL

The conversation is right above. Glad to see that you're finally accepting the truth now instead of making up stuff.

But I get the point. You hate Dells and no facts will get in your way.

No. I still maintain that I have seen units that have reversed fan and power cord placement. I'll find a model eventually. I am not worried about this.

I don't hate Dells, I do prefer other brands. I didn't change shit. I am not making up stuff. I am sorry that you think you know every Dell and Soundblaster model out there, but I assure you that you don't.

pxc, the only thing you need to know is this guy prefers HP machines over Dell in the prebuilt area. I don't think facts are a big part of his thinking.

Defend Dell all you like. Facts are apart of my thinking and as soon as I find a model that does fit the crteria I'll post about it and you can research it yourself.

What pisses me off here is the fact that pxc thinks he's right and will accept nothing else. I say that there are Dell models that have reversed power supply fan and cord placement and no spot for a power switch. I didn't say that it was current production and I didn't say that all models were like that.

My Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS doesn't have the white connector he refers to and it is a FACT. If I had a digital camera I'd take a pic of it and post it. Fact is he's wrong. Not all of them have that port.

There are SoundBlaster OEM cards that are sold to Dell and presumably other companies that Creative Labs doesn't support. I've tried to download drivers for them from Creative and they refer me to the manufacturers website. Plain and simple. As soon as I encounter another one, I'll post the model. They do exist.

I don't ask that he conceede those points, he can choose to believe them or not. Flaiming me and saying I don't know what I am doing is what pisses me off.

 

[Big Worm]

Made up my ass. I am looking at a Dell Dimension 4300 tower RIGHT now in the tech shop. Most standard PSU's will not fit in that case without modding it. Simple as that. A standard PSU would fit in this case, if there was a space cut out for a rear power switch. There isn't however. While there are plenty of PSU's that would fit it, most of the better brands of PSU have a power switch on the back.

Honestly who cares about the PSU... If it breaks down call Dell to get another one. 96 times out of 100 the PSU in the Dell will live out the life of a machine. Concentraiting an entire argument about Dell being poor quality around the non standard PSU is re-friggen-diculous.

Personally if I had to buy pre-built machines for a business or something I'd go with HP workstations. They are reliable and easy to work on. As far as warranty and support, I've had parts delivered in four hours for servers and next business day for workstations. Not they'll ship it next day, but the part actually arrives next day around 9-10am as long as you get your part order in before 2PM.

I have had the exact same experiences working on higher end Dell workstations/servers.

I really dont know what you are arguing about other then the fact that you are biased against dell.

 

[Dan_D]

Honestly who cares about the PSU... If it breaks down call Dell to get another one. 96 times out of 100 the PSU in the Dell will live out the life of a machine. Concentraiting an entire argument about Dell being poor quality around the non standard PSU is re-friggen-diculous.




I have had the exact same experiences working on higher end Dell workstations/servers.

I really dont know what you are arguing about other then the fact that you are biased against dell.

I never said the PSU's were of low quality. Honestly of all the things I have to replace on them the PSU doesn't come up very often. In many cases its because the user attempted to install something and screwed up the machine. Or Spyware, virus infections and the standard stuff.

Upgrades and so fourth. They aren't any worse than other brands. They are better than most. I never said they weren't. What we're arguing about here is the existance of a certain PSU form factor and the Sound card driver issue concerning non Creative Supported OEM cards.

I say that they exist, he says otherwise. However I was researching the PSU thing today and I've found alot of information on the older PSUs that do have a proprietary wiring scheme on a standard ATX shaped connector, but alas I have found no pictures of a power supply as I described above. It is possible that I remember that wrong, or it was a different system altogether. I have been known to be wrong from time to time.

I just swear I remember seeing a machine and working on one where a standard PSU didn't work in the case, not for wiring reasons but for the case itself. Since I can't remember a specific model I can't back that up with fact.

Not making it up, I swear I saw one, I remember one being that way but that doesn't mean that I remember accurately. I work on alot of systems so I may have gotten that Dell confused with another brand or PC that may have had a similar look.

The Sound Card thing, I've just got to find the model I am thinking of. I've run into that one plenty of times when reloading a OS from scratch on a Dell that the customer lost the recovery disks for. We get that alot too. People throw that stuff away or lose it all the time. Dell of course won't run the recovery for them or replace those disks for free in most instances. So customers bring them into various shops trying to get them fixed out of warranty.

In some instances its just been a bitch to find the right drivers for some hardware in those Dell's. The video card has never been an issue, nor have motherboard chipset drivers. Its always sound cards and modems.

Everyone's experiences differ, even amongs techs who know what they are doing they disagree on some points based on experience. Just like how some people think Nvidia drivers suck while others have had nothing but good experiences with nVidia and poor ones with ATi drivers.

I am not hardcore biased against Dell desktops or servers. I have a preference for another brand, but I'd take a Dell over alot of other brands any day. Gateway being one, Compaq Presario's are teh suck.

I will admit that I am biased against Dell notebooks. That is true. However if Dell were to change some of the things I hate about them, I wouldn't keep hating them because I hated them in the past.

 

[ColinR]

Personally if I had to buy pre-built machines for a business or something I'd go with HP workstations. They are reliable and easy to work on.

Qft! Get yourself a lovely 6200... mmmmmmm. Dual 64 bit Xeons! We have quite a few of these at work... very nice!

 

[Scali]

What we're arguing about here is the existance of a certain PSU form factor and the Sound card driver issue concerning non Creative Supported OEM cards.

You must realize that you may be 1 in 1000000 people who would actually care about that.
For most people it really doesn't matter what's in their PCs, as long as it works. And you even admit that Dell works well.
Other than that, well I don't know about you, but if I were to manage such a large park of computers, I'd make sure I'd have some spare parts in stock. Did you bother to contact Dell and ask if they could send you a batch of PSUs upfront, just in case? I'm sure they will, if you just bought a large amount of PCs from them.
I doubt you go out and buy some OEM PSU in some store everytime one breaks down, even if it is standard form factor, right? That'd be rather silly. Not to mention it'd get messy. You'd get a very inhomogenous computer park after a few breakdowns. Better to stick to original parts. How the hell would you manage a park of Apple computers, or non-x86 workstations/servers etc?
So if anything, I think we should argue your unprofessional way of working, rather than your bias against Dell.

 

[Dan_D]

Qft! Get yourself a lovely 6200... mmmmmmm. Dual 64 bit Xeons! We have quite a few of these at work... very nice!

Yeah the 6200's are nice. HP commercial units are generally pretty good. Although in the past they have had some craptastic models. The XW4100 case sucks. Other than that I have no complaints about that model.

The 5000, 6000 series case is pretty damn nice. Very easy to work in. One of the better designed pre-built machines out there.

You must realize that you may be 1 in 1000000 people who would actually care about that.
For most people it really doesn't matter what's in their PCs, as long as it works. And you even admit that Dell works well.
Other than that, well I don't know about you, but if I were to manage such a large park of computers, I'd make sure I'd have some spare parts in stock. Did you bother to contact Dell and ask if they could send you a batch of PSUs upfront, just in case? I'm sure they will, if you just bought a large amount of PCs from them.
I doubt you go out and buy some OEM PSU in some store everytime one breaks down, even if it is standard form factor, right? That'd be rather silly. Not to mention it'd get messy. You'd get a very inhomogenous computer park after a few breakdowns. Better to stick to original parts. How the hell would you manage a park of Apple computers, or non-x86 workstations/servers etc?
So if anything, I think we should argue your unprofessional way of working, rather than your bias against Dell.

That's nice, the personal attack.

I don't use Dells at my IT job. I don't know how well they support their business machines vs. HP. I don't get to choose what gets purchased for the most part. Our corporate has a corporate standard and that is HP. Fortunatley I happen to like them for the most part as they've been reliable and out of the different models I've worked with over the years, there have only been a couple that I thought sucked ass. If I need a part I get one from HP, next business day at the latest. I've got several extra units that can be deployed and imaged remotely should one fail. Most of our units are under warranty and as I said we've got extra units. Keeping parts on hand isn't necessary as they aren't usually needed. Other equipment we do keep some parts on hand for. When units are out of warranty I do order parts from the manufacturer of the machine and keep the most common components that fail in stock.

So your questioning my methods without even knowing what they are? Nice.

At my bench tech job, CUSTOMERS bring me these units. They bring them in for repair. I don't always work with current and brand new machines. I don't like Dells for the same reasons I don't like alot of units. Proprietary non-standard motherboards and power supply designs. While Dell's newer models don't have those anymore, I still have to work on MANY units that do still have those older PSU's. Guess what not every Dell customer owns a new one. I hate the look of the case and some units are kind of a pain in the ass to work on compared to some others, The cases feel cheap to me and I simply don't like them. Are Dell's of poor quality? No. They are onpar if not superior to many or most of the companies that sell pre-built machines.

I am speaking about Dell as a whole, not specific models. I am free to dislike them for any reason I wish. Get over it. I am sorry if I upset the Dell whores. Your chosing to be offended by it. Like it or not the reasons may be minor but there are technical reasons why I don't like Dells. If I *HAVE* no choice but to get a PSU from Dell I don't like that. Say I want to use a 600Watt Enermax in one because I loaded it down with drives, and a high end video card? Can't do it. My Enermax has a PSU switch. So unless I want to get out a Dremel I'm screwed. That's just because of the switch! I haven't even gotten into anything about proprietary wiring. I found out through some research that about a year ago or two, something like that. Dell stopped doing the PSU's that way. Great. FACT is they did it from 1998 on to sometime a year or two ago. I think that's bullshit and it sucks. There is no need to deviate from established industry standards and I do not like it when ANY company does that.

Not to mention that most OEM's use weak power supplies. Generally they are of good quality and can handle being pushed fairly hard but I've seen many brands including Dells that couldn't handle what the user was trying to install in them.

Plus, when customers lose their 2 and 3 year old recovery disks and I have to re-install an OS on the machines, I have run into some hardware in those machines that don't want to use the non-Dell supplied driver. Thats been my experience. Sure if I look long enough I can get the right driver from Dell, I don't know about in the last couple months as I haven't been there in awhile, but the Dell site wasn't the easiest to navigate that I can recall. Again its my expereience and my preference. Simple as that. It rarely comes up that I have to deal with a model like that. Usually they just have integrated video and audio and they are a snap to get drivers for and get running. Not always though.

I have many other biases against most pre-built PC manufacturers. I'd be willing to bet that many of the users of this forum don't like pre-builts either. Hence why everyone will tell a newbie not to buy one and to build for themselves. Its so easy to us that we don't often consider just how daunting it can be for the novice. People who aren't comfortable with building should buy a pre-built machine. I might steer them twords another brand perhaps, that I may like better but Dell isn't a bad way to go. Especially now. I think they've gotten better recently. When I work on units, in many cases I don't pay much attention to how new it is. If its real old I tell customers to buy a new one as its not cost effective to repair the old one much of the time. I work on quite a few Dells and a large number of the units I encounter have the proprietary PSU design. Since most of the units I have to work on from Dell have everything integrated, one of three things takes place, 1 a drive fails, no big deal. 2 a motherboard fails, or three the PSU fails. Since out of warranty parts from any manuacturer can cost a ton of money, especially when they aren't really worth that much, the customer is screwed. Because of that motherboard design and the PSU design. They can't just throw a normal ATX PSU and mobo in that Dell case. Doesn't work like that on most of the models I've seen. The same problem exists for many OEM's and I would have said the same crap about them.

That is MY choice as a technician and as someone who is advising customers based on my experiences. I've got quite a few Dell warranty horror stories, as I do for almost every brand out there. There is no reason to start a flame war because I disagree with you. Personally attackng me and saying that my methods are questionable without them ever being discussed is rediculous.

 

[Donnie27]

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1818396,00.asp

Donnie27

 

[UnlimitedMP]

I don't OC and I've been thinking of getting an 8400 in the summer or later. I'll check out the outlets around that time for some deals. I never thought of using the outlets.

 

[elfletcho]

Bought an 8400 with a P4 650 (3.4GHZ) 2x512 PC2-3200 80GB HD, 256MB PCIe ATI X850XT PE for $871 after tax last week. The deals are out there, you just have to catch em.

 

[Darvon]

Why not Dell 8400?

Because it's a Dell? What the hell is wrong with you, pre built computers are dirty.

Maybe if you found a $20 under the couch and you decided to use it to buy grandma a computer to write emails on it would be worth a thought I guess.

 

[pxc]

Because it's a Dell? What the hell is wrong with you, pre built computers are dirty.

says the guy with a 17 line signature.

 

[Dan_D]

Because it's a Dell? What the hell is wrong with you, pre built computers are dirty.

Maybe if you found a $20 under the couch and you decided to use it to buy grandma a computer to write emails on it would be worth a thought I guess.

That's a little harsh. Dell isn't the worst brand you can get. Pre-built computers are good for people who need warranty and need a computer and aren't capable of building one.

Better they buy a Dell than some piece of shit house brand from Fry's, Microcenter or Comp USA.

Alot of first time DIY computer builders also build machines out of shitty ECS and PC-Chips motherboards. For these people, they would have likely been better off with a Dell or even some other brand.

Just because you can build a machine, doesn't mean that everyone else can or even should build one. There are many situations where pre-built machines make sense.

Take my work for example, If I had to build the 400 PC's at the site I work at, it would be a massive undertaking. Especially even for a tech department of 7 guys. With no warranty contract and standardized spare parts, the systems would be a mess to maintain and image due to the differences the machines would develop over time.

 

[E4g1e]

Alot of first time DIY computer builders also build machines out of shitty ECS and PC-Chips motherboards. For these people, they would have likely been better off with a Dell or even some other brand.

Not me. (Though my brother's first couple of builds, during the 486DX and early Pentium days, were based on f#c&ing piece of crap no-name motherboards, and even those builds I helped him put together.) My first builds (for myself) did not come until late in the Pentium MMX era (though I did help my brother on some of his better Pentium builds prior to my first build). At that point, I went straight for Asus mobos.

Since then, I have built systems based on varying brands of mobos. I've made a mistake when I bought parts for my first AMD build (an Athlon XP 1600+) by going with an ECS mobo (which had stability problems when the processor got hot - much hotter than what its in-socket thermistor reported). After living with that ECS piece of crap for less than two months, I replaced it with an Abit KT266a-based mobo (the one which now resides in my "guest rig" - running an Athlon XP 2000+ CPU).

And I agree with your statement on Dell systems. You can do a lot worse than Dell, as far as pre-builts are concerned. But you can get some retailers' house brands which use good-quality innards. (Trouble with those brands is that you'd never know what they use until you open the case.)

 

[Scali]

That's a little harsh. Dell isn't the worst brand you can get.

Indeed not. Look around for reviews of Dell computers, and you'll find that their better models are ace performers. I started building PCs in the 486 age, and for me, Dell was the brand to beat. I looked at what parts they used (mostly the videocard), and if I could get close to their performance, that meant my computer was tweaked properly.
They've always had supergood motherboards in them, and apparently the timings were tweaked for great performance too.

Take my work for example, If I had to build the 400 PC's at the site I work at, it would be a massive undertaking. Especially even for a tech department of 7 guys. With no warranty contract and standardized spare parts, the systems would be a mess to maintain and image due to the differences the machines would develop over time.

Funny, now you say exactly the same as I did when you said it was a personal attack!

 

[jon67]

Because it's a Dell? What the hell is wrong with you, pre built computers are dirty.

Maybe if you found a $20 under the couch and you decided to use it to buy grandma a computer to write emails on it would be worth a thought I guess.

You have no idea how stupid you sound. Dell are always amongst the first to offer systems with the latest tech (X850XT-PE, GeForce Go 6800U, dual-cores etc).

 

[Fark_Maniac]

Take my work for example, If I had to build the 400 PC's at the site I work at, it would be a massive undertaking. Especially even for a tech department of 7 guys. With no warranty contract and standardized spare parts, the systems would be a mess to maintain and image due to the differences the machines would develop over time.

There's an option over looked. Where I just recently worked (I graduated), we used "IBM-Clones". We would buy intel motherboards and nvidia video card based pre-assembled machines from either Mwave.com or Ace Computers (based out of chicago). About the only things that changed over time were processor speeds (does not affect ghost images) and chipsets. We overcame the last one by having an image for each chipset. I was at the university department and we only had 5 chipsets (440bx, 815, 845, and 865). When we put out a bid for a batch of computers, we'd specify our latest supported chipset. This was not a problem supporting 500+ machines in this manner with 1 full time 'boss-man' and 5 part time students (though 2 were useless).


...but this is a far digression from the OP's topic

 

[chrisf6969]

Dells are great PC's. You can't beat the price. And if a good functional maintenance-free PC is important to you, you can't go wrong with a Dell.

Now if you're a "tech monkey" like most people here in the H. You'll want a motherboard with overclocking options, etc... to squeeze every bit of power possible out of your system.

BTW, "tech monkeys" are the nerd equivalent of "grease monkeys". (the guys that love to squeeze more horsepower from their cars, adding exhaust, chips, etc...)

But for most of the population a stock, maintenance free PC (or car) is perfectly fine, though. And Dell is the ticket.

I've got a Dell 3.06Ghz at work, and its been great the past 2+ years, very quiet, no problems, etc... Now at home where I game, etc... I build my own PC's.

 

[Peach]

At my bench tech job I get more HP, Compaq, and Gateway PC's than I get Dells, That would say something about how good Dell support takes care of their customers. I have owned Dell PC's, and they have worked perfectly fine. When I was a big computer n00b my first PC was a Dell and I hosed Windows 98, I called Dell Support, they walked me through the entire reformat process, and when I couldn't find my license key, they gave me a new one! So to the thread starter, ignore the massive flame war going on right now, and pick up a dell. At least you have piece of mind that if something goes wrong, it won't take months to fix.

 

[chizu]

so I'll go ahead and ask it here.

Which processor would be a better choice for me if I rip a lot of DVDs and burn them. AMD or Intel?

Intel rips DVDs faster right?

 

[Peach]

Intel Encodes faster, I don't know about ripping, if encoding is involved, 9 times outta 10 intel comes out on top.

 

[chizu]

How fast is faster? And could you tell without doing bench marks?

 

[Skrying]

How fast is faster? And could you tell without doing bench marks?

Actually its very dependent upon what program you are using to do the ripping. Sometimes the A64 comes on top sometimes the P4 does.

When it comes down to it though its about a 65/45 split with the P4 just slightly on top. Now, that's just winning, but the actually difference between the two is very small.

 

[jon67]

Actually its very dependent upon what program you are using to do the ripping. Sometimes the A64 comes on top sometimes the P4 does.

When it comes down to it though its about a 65/45 split with the P4 just slightly on top. Now, that's just winning, but the actually difference between the two is very small.

yeah, definitely a 65/45 split...

You can easily compare benchmarks for different CPUs in thg's interactive guide:

http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html

 

[Blitzrommel]

In the past, Dell had what I felt were really chinzy-built systems, surrounded by horrible shells of plastic (Still applies to some today). They've gotten much better, however, and I now own a Latitude D610 which is built solid.

What really makes me dislike Dell was their home consumer tech support. Always giving you canned answers (no matter what your expertise level was, and making it known to them) and getting anything resolved was like pulling teeth. And God forbid you need something replaced! (*cough powersupply*)

Their small business (and higher) deptartment on the other hand... They've provided me with wonderful customer service and the level of attention their home division can learn much from.

Note: I didn't really read more than the first two-three posts of this thread.