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Why is Vista good for Computer Audio?
- Thread starter Donnie27
- Start date
Fees?There are no fees with OpenAL.
Hehehe I got it!
Everybody I have talked to says for the most part audio has improved in Vista. Gaming not withstanding. The overall sound quality is said to be very good. You would think sound quality would be better in the new OS the audio routines are all brand new, the mixer is also brand spanking new. Improvements across the board it seems.
First I don't use the Windows KMixer or UMMixer (User Mode Mixer). So I wouldn't know. I've heard folks say all 3. I mean I have heard folks say it sounds; Worse, the Same and Better. The simple fact that these folks are about evenly divided shows inconsistency. For computers, that sucks! Again, I said what I said but also stated that I hope I'm wrong as hell
I'll defer until after Service Pack 1 and maybe up to SP2.
From what I have heard so far it sounds pretty good. Directsound is still available for Audio player Plugins. I am mentioning that becasue I have had to help a few people thinking that these plugins won't work becasue Directsound HAL was removed. I like the new setup and properties available for each input and ouput. This is DirectX 10 so one would think the new sound routines would be fiarly good. I have more testing and playing to do. Alot of people have also been complaining and Crackling and popping under certain situations.
Well, Microsoft's audio team talk about hardware acceleration globally, which means both 2D and 3D components of DirectSound. If you were to say that removing hardware acceleration is only detrimental, in some aspects, to Creative card owners, you'd really be somewhat wrong -- thus my original point. The opinion that Microsoft was "targeting" Creative owners is quite absurd when we know that many other sound cards perform rudimentary hardware acceleration in XP. Maybe buffer acceleration was the main culprit in XP instability, and maybe it was other aspects, such as SRC, positioning, mixing or extensions that were the primary culprits. They really haven't said precisely what the issue was, which I take to mean that hardware acceleration in general was fubar.
As these are the only Windows components. ASIO and OpenAL are really entirely separate things, as they have no real interaction with the stack in XP nor in Vista. If neither are installed on a given machine, then there are no hardware accelerated audio APIs in Windows Vista.
The best Microsoft could do to prevent either of them working is to somehow lock down I/O, I guess.
First it's Microsoft that's Totally FOS to try and distence themselves from DRM by trying to say Problematic Drivers was the reason for moving the Audio stack. Equally silly is folks picking out Creative Labs when MS's Rep just said "Faulty or Bad Audio Drivers". I've used far worse drivers from nVidia for my Asus A8N SLI, sorry Phide but NV-RAID and the Firewall Crap-o-la is worse than ANY software Creative ever shipped IMHO!
I say again Magnetic, PLEASE re-open that WInXp X-Fi Driver question thread? Why?Then we could see how lame claims of Bad drivers really are.
Please link us to the cards with HW Accelerated DS3D?
The sound card's Hardware Drivers were moved though
I'm complaining about removal of the HAL and running the card from User mode. All I'm saying it is easier for DRM when done this way. DRM is the real reason, not bad Audio drivers that affect how much of the Market?It is easier for MS to *try (already cracked) to lock down Video and Audio via Protected Paths, Protected Multimedia Path and etc....... An honest MS would put DRM on table and say why, not bs and lie.
Oh I agree, I don't think Microsoft removed HAL support in spite of Creative, but I think we can all agree that Creative is certainly most affected by this move.
IMO Microsoft saw a problem (Windows crashing at an alarming rate due to HAL related issues) and took an extreme (and also probably the easiest) way of solving the problem. I don't blame them for trying to fix a problem, but they seemed to do without thinking of the consequences (or how it affected all the parties involved, even the end user). There were probably alternative solutions (albeit probably harder) to the problem (perhaps having stricter audio driver requirements like they did with video card drivers), but instead of trying to work directly with the major sound card companies to find a fix/compromise (like they do all the time with video card companies), they took the solution that was easiest for them (instead of what was best for everyone).
Everyone can agree that there was a problem, everyone can agree that Microsoft needed to address the problem, but did Microsoft have to take such extreme measures to solve the problem? I would like to think no, but obviously that's debatable.
IMO Microsoft saw a problem (Windows crashing at an alarming rate due to HAL related issues) and took an extreme (and also probably the easiest) way of solving the problem. I don't blame them for trying to fix a problem, but they seemed to do without thinking of the consequences (or how it affected all the parties involved, even the end user). There were probably alternative solutions (albeit probably harder) to the problem (perhaps having stricter audio driver requirements like they did with video card drivers), but instead of trying to work directly with the major sound card companies to find a fix/compromise (like they do all the time with video card companies), they took the solution that was easiest for them (instead of what was best for everyone).
Everyone can agree that there was a problem, everyone can agree that Microsoft needed to address the problem, but did Microsoft have to take such extreme measures to solve the problem? I would like to think no, but obviously that's debatable.
Unlike others, I don't have SCP and Dumped the one board that did cause problems. The A8N32 SLI that I almost upgraded to.
Please note, I already have different sound setting for Each X-Fi mode and the Bloatware works LOL! I have Creative DVD-A player, Foobar 2000, WMP 11, WinAMP, Nero's and Roxio's players and at least of Couple others, this whole __________ sounds better is VERY subjective. Yes, I did test Digital and Analog
Sorry guys, I'd take 24-96 straight to my receiver any-day. The player? Not settled on one.Well, that's one experience, anyway. I've had far more issues with Creative software and drivers than I've ever had with NVIDIA software or drivers. I've been quite truthful when I've said that I can't recall any specific issues I've had with ForceWare, nTune, NVIDIA firewall or other applications, but that isn't the issue here.
Your experience is the opposite of my own, as it stands. It doesn't mean much. In fact, it means practically nothing. It's two individual experiences out of some random six or seven digit number. Drawing conclusions from two experiences or twenty is, statistically, quite stupid.
I think it's much less about Creative's drivers than it is about drivers from other vendors and, yes, DRM. It seems like dropping the HAL was the main way to wrangle the protected paths, but it seems out of place that DRM could also function perfectly well when using other APIs, such as ASIO or OpenAL, as you've said. For that reason, I think it's a combination of drivers issues, HAL issues and DRM.
Like I said, twenty or thirty responses to a thread in a little-visited sub-forum on some site is totally insignificant. It's data I'd instantly dismiss, not because of Creative, or Microsoft, or whatever, but because the data ends up being meaningless from a statistical perspective.
I know of none that are anywhere nearly as functional in that area as Creative cards, but I also don't know if other chips, like C-Media's Oxygen HD 8788, lack all acceleration of DS3D functions. This kind of information is not printed on the sides of product boxes, nor is it something that could be realistically tested. Quite frankly, I have no fucking idea, and I wish I did. Coming across this kind of information is exceedingly difficult.
That's the million-dollar question, isn't it? Any ballpark I could make would end up being based on absolutely zero evidence, as we don't know the true extent of what "hardware acceleration" entails across all chips.
However, the default setting in Windows XP is full hardware acceleration, which means acceleration of secondary buffers as well as acceleration of extensions (of which how many chips utilize?). Do all chips utilize both? Do some chips utilize neither? Do all chips do everything to certain extents?
We know for a fact that X-Fis do it all, but what we don't know is what other chips can do. The best we can assume is that most, if not all, chips accelerate secondary buffers, which may or may not be the big XP stability culprit.
The path of least resistance is generally the best path. Maybe it's lazy; maybe it was a compromise; maybe it was the only way. I'd like to think that Microsoft's competence is not always at the apex in the industry, so I'd definitely assume like the pure software path was an exercise in laziness.
Then again, how much blame rests on hardware manufacturers? Microsoft played a blame game to some extent, but who knows how truthful they're being there. Microsoft certainly isn't prone to honesty.
Like I've said, though, it may be a good thing in the long run. I'm an X-Fi owner, I like EAX, and I want EAX to work in Vista on all games I own, but I'm also not afraid to sacrifice that if it ends up being for some sort of greater future. Then again, maybe I'm way too a glass-half-full kind of guy in my thinking.
my hope is that with vista, better cards will come out using the new standard. I dont care how the audio gets done as long it sounds better, costs cheaper and is more stable. Id really like to see something like EAX 5.0 in a non-proprietary format. Working with vista, card companies can develop a standard where everyone have their own 'EAX' or simply everyone has the same one but each company implements it different.
As a gamer, i have no other choice for sound. EAX is by the far the best for FPS gameplay. Software developers know this, so they code for EAX 5.0. Creative then comes out with another version and the cycle continues. Its very hard for other companies to get into the gaming sound market if its only a 2 player party. If some standard was designed with access to all, then we could test all the cards from creative,razer etc and truely see who has the best solution, not having creative win by default just because it has EAX 5.0
As a gamer, i have no other choice for sound. EAX is by the far the best for FPS gameplay. Software developers know this, so they code for EAX 5.0. Creative then comes out with another version and the cycle continues. Its very hard for other companies to get into the gaming sound market if its only a 2 player party. If some standard was designed with access to all, then we could test all the cards from creative,razer etc and truely see who has the best solution, not having creative win by default just because it has EAX 5.0
Well, to be fair, Creative's won the market because EAX is fundamentally a good thing. Integration isn't complex, it's fast, and it works well. They didn't win by default because of EAX, but they did win because of EAX and because of robust hardware features.
There doesn't truly need to be a standard, as software processing of effects is a reality today, and some sound engines feature "off-the-shelf" effects. What would be ideal is something that could accelerate API-level software effects.
And really, it's a one player market. There are truly no other products like the X-Fi and EAX 5.0, but Creative isn't to blame here.
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I did not close that thread. Kyle did. reason? reps for companies must follow procedures to get a proper label before posting as a rep for a specific company. This was due to users in the past posing as reps that weren't. They need to be verified.
(and I am NOT saying that the creative rep was doing this)
He can post all he wants when he goes through the right channels.
I hope this clears things up once and for all.
alg7_munif
Supreme [H]ardness
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I think that he was refering to his "working" X-Fi thread not the alchemy thread.
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if that's the case.. I will reopen it if the thread stays civilized. I gave forewarning and let that thread go too far before I closed it.
I'll do my part to keep it as civil as possible! Please note, I left the other thread and have NOT returned. I'd asked the others to do the same for this thread
?I think your always gonna have arguments in that thread becasue of the nature of the thread itself. Just because drivers work for some people on certain systems doesn't meant they unuversally work. This is just a fact of the PC. Can't really see what the point of the thread is anyway, My drivers work!, My drivers don't, My drivers work!, My drivers don't. It's not gonna solve anything or prove anything in the least you states this fact a few post ago. If you think it's gonna help or be informative great.....
I think your always gonna have arguments in that thread becasue of the nature of the thread itself. Just because drivers work for some people on certain systems doesn't meant they unuversally work. This is just a fact of the PC. Can't really see what the point of the thread is anyway, My drivers work!, My drivers don't, My drivers work!, My drivers don't. It's not gonna solve anything or prove anything in the least you states this fact a few post ago. If you think it's gonna help or be informative great.....
That's true but we don't need 2 people telling 35 people they're lucky because their drivers work while the 2 had problems. Or that after 1.5 million cards are sold, 2 or 3 thousand sign a petition to sue. The thread wasn't taken off topic by the question but by folks trying to sell XMeridian. Then the mod should simply delete those post and warn those posters to stay on topic or leave the thread. Seen me posting on Alg7's thread lately?
So let the thread answer the question? The thread showed at least 13 or 15 to 1 and many of the posters had nVidia based motherboards with no SCP or problems. There are certain problematic motherboards, weak power supplies and etc.. that's just as much at fault. As I pointed out to the Dan, [H]'s Motherboard Editor. The drivers aren't perfect, I just asked if they work?
As for Vista audio, Has anybody tried any comparisons yet with a measuring application to see if there is a measurable increase in sound quality?
I personally don't really like RMAA but for this type of thing it'll give us a idea of any sound quality optimizations. Might show nothing who knows.
I personally don't really like RMAA but for this type of thing it'll give us a idea of any sound quality optimizations. Might show nothing who knows.
Been following this thread.
http://forum.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=2156761&postcount=139
You then see why I asked the question about if Vista is good for Computer Audio? I honest wish Microsoft would have left HAL as an Option in Vista Ultimate Edition. Where you could have the choice to Install or not. I have a friend running his tests right along with Stormy at Guru's forum and said, "He's dead on Donnie". Vista Audigy 2(+) users should give this a shot?
http://forum.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=2156761&postcount=139
You then see why I asked the question about if Vista is good for Computer Audio? I honest wish Microsoft would have left HAL as an Option in Vista Ultimate Edition. Where you could have the choice to Install or not. I have a friend running his tests right along with Stormy at Guru's forum and said, "He's dead on Donnie". Vista Audigy 2(+) users should give this a shot?
Note, I said that thread, and that he provided it. NOT that he invented, came up with it or etc....
Yeah, He no longer works for them. What is really funny is a few people asked him if by changing the Ini files you could get the ALchemy wrapper to work with the Audigy's and he repsonded NO. Kinda funny that's what alot of guys are doing and they are working just fine...
Yup!
Yeah, He no longer works for them. What is really funny is a few people asked him if by changing the Ini files you could get the ALchemy wrapper to work with the Audigy's and he repsonded NO. Kinda funny that's what alot of guys are doing and they are working just fine...
Both events is why I re-posted it here
No. Actually it's for playback. I use Kernel Streaming with Foobar, which blocks out audio from any application that uses DirectSound. However, if I use ALchemy, I can use Kernel Streaming and still get audio from applications that use DirectSound (since it's being mapped to OpenAL).
In my case, I like to use Ventrilo (uses DirectSound) basically 24/7 so I can easily be in contact with friends. If I listen to music (with Kernel Streaming), I can't hear my friends. But if I use Ventrilo with ALchemy, everything works perfectly (because OpenAL bypasses the kmixer). However that currently limits me to "gaming mode", which obviously isn't very optimal for music. So I am trying to get ALchemy working in different modes so I can optimally listen to music and still be able to hear my friends. We'll see if I can get it going, so far no luck.
In my case, I like to use Ventrilo (uses DirectSound) basically 24/7 so I can easily be in contact with friends. If I listen to music (with Kernel Streaming), I can't hear my friends. But if I use Ventrilo with ALchemy, everything works perfectly (because OpenAL bypasses the kmixer). However that currently limits me to "gaming mode", which obviously isn't very optimal for music. So I am trying to get ALchemy working in different modes so I can optimally listen to music and still be able to hear my friends. We'll see if I can get it going, so far no luck.
Using waveout yields the same results as DirectSound. I think because they both use the kmixer. The ASIO plug-in is too flaky for version .9 of Foobar; so I am stuck with Kernel Streaming. It's not a big deal, I just have to sacrifice a little audio quality for [44.1kHz] music till I figure out an alternative solution (I haven't put much time trying to get ALchemy working with other modes, so I am hoping I can work something out).
How much of the Creative THX or the other Consoles does Vista let you run?
None. I was under the impression they didn't work. I'm not sure how they would help me in this situation anyway.
If you could make the appropreate setting in Creation Mode to bit matched or Entertainment modes. I since found something that said they didn't work but was being worked on. That was about a 10 days ago.