Why is everything a TN panel?

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Gawd
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I'm looking for a decent 20'' screen that ISN'T a TN panel. I recently picked up a Dell E248WFP and returned it the next day because I couldn't stand the weak viewing angles and coloring shifting when turning my head. I thought instead maybe I should look at the UltraSharp 2009W, but it turns out that is now also a TN panel!

I already own a 2005WFP and a 2007WFP, both of which are have been really great screens. I'd like to keep that streak going.

I'm having a very tough time finding any screens these days that don't use TN panels. Does anyone have any suggestions?
 
What's your budget? Maybe you don't need to stick to 20". If you want to consider 24"Wide
BenQ FP241VW is good choice with reasonable price around $450 which you can get if from BenQ online store.
 
Here's what I was told by an NEC rep.: BestBuy and the other big brick-and-mortars decided a couple years ago that they would no longer sell the expensive IPS and higher-end VAs, when you can get a much cheaper TN/VA the same size and resolution for much less money. They didn't care about panel types, quality, features, etc., they were just tired of trying to explain why a 20" 20WMGX2 (IPS) was $600 and the other 20" sitting next to it (TN) was $5, or even worse, why you could spend $10 and get a 22". All the customer knew was 22" was bigger and cheaper.

He told me that's one of the main factors that killed the 20WMGX2 in the US, and also why its long-rumored replacement was cancelled. At that point, NEC cleanly split their product lines into Consumer and Business, and from then on, the Consumer models were going to be cheap-ass TNs and slightly better VAs. He was obviously disgusted by the whole turn of events, but said ViewSonic had reached the same fork in the road, which explains why the "consumer" VX2025 was killed off, and the high-end Professional Series IPS was replaced by a similar size PVA that looked identical.
 
IPS is the best LCD technology today but it is still not good enough for me.
LED backlight is an interesting improvement but I am afraid it is not enough.
I cannot wait for OLED!
 
EW27 said:
...BestBuy and the other big brick-and-mortars...didn't care about panel types, quality, features, etc., they were just tired of trying to explain why a 20" 20WMGX2 (IPS) was $600 and the other 20" sitting next to it (TN) was $5, or even worse, why you could spend $10 and get a 22". All the customer knew was 22" was bigger and cheaper.
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The B&M salespeople weren't spending any time explaining the difference between panel tech. First, hardly any of the manufacturers list the panel type in the specs. After all, that would make it harder for them to conduct a panel lottery. Second, the salespeople have no idea there exists different types of panel. I went into a Microcenter last year and asked to see a monitor that was PVA, MVA or IPS. Everyone there was clueless and admitted to not knowing what I was talking about. Finally, I went over to the Mac section because I was reasonably sure the displays over there were IPS (but the staff didn't know enough to suggest this.) And this was a computer store. You get _less_ competance at a BB.
 
yea these retail guys are clueless. But what do you expect from a minimum wage day job? They could care less what the difference between panels are. They know nothing about the products they are selling. There were numerous times when I was at BB i heard them recommend things to clueless consumers that were just plain wrong. Its as much the consumers fault as the retailer becase they dont do their research before they go there and believe everything they are told at the store...if the consumers go to the stores with a little more knowlegdge at least they can challenge and make the BB managers and reps look clueless, then maybe BB will start implementing a decent product training system...
 
Malatesta said:
They push $100 monster cables because they end up making $95 dollars profit on them. The idiots are the people who buy them, not the sales people.
Click to expand...

right, that would be the point he was trying to make . . . .but the analogy is way off.

a $10.00 HDMI cable will produce the same results as any that is more expensive.

But for most computing needs, a top flight $200.00 TN will produce results that are
as close to if not better than a comparably sized IPS panel worth twice as much.
The price to performance difference between these two technologies is idiotic and
unjustifiable . . .. for the typical user.

IPS panel producers should take note of Pioneer plasma's fate.
 
Stop blaming the retailer. The consumer chose this.

We are heading (mostly there) toward the Walmartization of America. Most people buy cheapest regardless of loss of quality. Eventually you have a hard time finding anything other than cheap junk. More expensive quality products are simply forced off the market.

I paid 3 or 4 times the price for my IPS LCD monitor, than you would for the average TN screen. Probably not 1 in a 1000 people would do that. Would you?

BTW Dell has a very decently priced IPS panel:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1387587
 
Enjoy the free market. Where the average consumer decides what is available and what isn't ;)

I'm still firmly sticking to CRTs until something with equal or better specs comes along. The 15" OLED screen LG is releasing later this year seems like a promising start :)
 
Still remember seeing a salesman at a B&M store recommending a small LCD TV and ignoring cheaper same sized CRTs nearby with much better picture quality. I imagine that happened all of the time...

Premature demise of CRT, rise of TN, etc., it's been a pretty rough go for display enthusiasts...
 
Mindoculus said:
But for most computing needs, a top flight $200.00 TN will produce results that are
as close to if not better than a comparably sized IPS panel worth twice as much.
The price to performance difference between these two technologies is idiotic and
unjustifiable . . .. for the typical user.

IPS panel producers should take note of Pioneer plasma's fate.
Click to expand...

I'll stick with IPS (or at least *VA). Thank you very much.
 
Snowdog said:
Stop blaming the retailer. The consumer chose this.

We are heading (mostly there) toward the Walmartization of America. Most people buy cheapest regardless of loss of quality. Eventually you have a hard time finding anything other than cheap junk. More expensive quality products are simply forced off the market.
Click to expand...

Sad, but true. I help a lot of family and friends with computers, including purchases. Almost everyone wants CHEAP! JUNK! One of the reasons why is because they think it will be out of date in a couple of years. Another reason is because they are badly over spent already.

The next BIG economic disaster will be credit cards. Too many people are way in over their head.

Back to topic. Hopefully TN tech will improve over time.

I really have a hard time getting people, (even some that are computer savy) to see the difference in panel types, and to me it is very obvious.

Dave
 
TN panel tech won't significantly improve. LCD tech as a whole is pretty much at the pinnacle, as the limitations inherent in twisted crystal display technology will prevent it from ever reaching the image quality of CRTs and soon OLED, FED and SED displays. TN is and has always been the lowest common denominator of display technology. They're like the passive matrix TFTs you saw years ago: awful quality and barely usable in day-to-day usage, but bloody cheap and therefore popular by the general public.

In my experience most people are completely oblivious to (to me) obvious differences in visual and audio quality. 64-kbit MP3s with horrible artifacts and noise, anyone? Colour- or brightness-shift on most types of LCD panels? Heck, I'm already horribly annoyed by the tinny sound of my laptop's speakers and the fact that my CRTs need to be recalibrated (nearly there, but a tad too dark).

*shrugs*

Perhaps this is what audio and videophiles go through whenever they enter a discussion with 'others' ;)
 
It really is for most people they do not even know there are other panels out there. I didn't till I started coming here. And really I doubt that for most people they would care. I think its easy to get caught up in believing that the difference are huge for all when its really only big to people like us. Most people want to go to Wal-Mart pick up whatever dell POS they find with a 19 ws lcd and take it home and be done with it. While I would never buy a pre-made computer. The average consumer doesn't care if a panel is 6 bit or 8 bit, they just want whatever they buy to be a cheap as possible... especially in this economy. If IPS or VA survive its going to be because they bring prices down to TN level. Same for OLED or any other tech.
 
Snowdog said:
I paid 3 or 4 times the price for my IPS LCD monitor, than you would for the average TN screen. Probably not 1 in a 1000 people would do that. Would you?
Click to expand...

That's all good and well if you can afford 3 or 4 times the price of a TN to go for IPS. To me, I have better and more pressing things to do with my money and this constant TN/VA bashing is so annoying.

TNs yes, are cheap, but they're great for gaming and while viewing angles are poor, just because it bothers you or me, doesn't mean it bothers everyone so why would they pay more for something they don't need. And as for VAs, the only problem I see is a slight brightness shift from edge to center but the fact of the matter is that I'd rather have that than the off angle white glow found in the bulk of IPS monitors that don't have ATW polarizers. Main point is different strokes for different folks. I bought my HP LP2465 for $250 with Live cashback and the performance it offers is great. It's a P-MVA and offers amazing black levels, natural whites, and great color accuracy for the price; I don't need a $650 LP2475 or worse a $1000 2490 to say that I have a good monitor that satisfies my needs. I do a lot of PS work and have never seen a monitor, calibrated or not, display colors as printed, so the point that IPS is better for "Pros" is moot to me as well.
 
I had an IPS 24" monitor, sold it, and got a 28" TN monitor.

I gotta say once calibrated correctly, I really had a hard time telling any difference in quality.

Shrug
 
Elledan said:
They're like the passive matrix TFTs you saw years ago: awful quality and barely usable in day-to-day usage, but bloody cheap and therefore popular by the general public.
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Yup, my Acer H213H is DEFINITELY "awful quality and barely usable"..... :rolleyes:

As far as I know, the H213H is a TN panel. And I couldn't ask for a nicer picture. Well, hell, I probably could; and expect to pay ALOT more than $200 for it....

But it's DEFINITELY NOTHING LIKE a passive matrix TFT...... Heck, I have absolutely zero complaints about it, viewing angle included.
 
For me it isn't the color accuracy, nor the 6 bits that bothers me about TN.
It's the damn color shifting. As I shift around in my chair, or look at different parts of the screen, it's like a subtly rotating rainbow. Light gray-on-white is the perfect example, at the top of the screen the whites look brighter, and at the bottom the grays look brighter, and part of the screen they look the same. Whites are never white, they're either bluish or yellowish depending on where my eyes are relative to the screen. I have two TN panels at work and they really gross me out. The TN I have at home was a rush purchase to replace my beloved CRT and when I have the money it's getting replaced.
Shame on Best Buy, etc. for not carrying any decent monitors. I'm having a heck of a time even finding a PVA/MVA monitor anywhere.
/rant
 
Mindoculus said:
right, that would be the point he was trying to make . . . .but the analogy is way off.

a $10.00 HDMI cable will produce the same results as any that is more expensive.

But for most computing needs, a top flight $200.00 TN will produce results that are
as close to if not better than a comparably sized IPS panel worth twice as much.
The price to performance difference between these two technologies is idiotic and
unjustifiable . . .. for the typical user.

IPS panel producers should take note of Pioneer plasma's fate.
Click to expand...

Yes they should. I think LG understands that over priced IPS panels will not stand as it is in the market.

I do have to take issue with the statement you made, that I italicized.

IMHO, IPS panels are visually far nicer in almost every category than equivalent size and resolution TN panels. Comparing my fairly well-priced 22" Dell 2209WA vs. any other 22" TN panel I've seen is like night and day, regardless of any issues I've experienced with it. It is not perfect, but it is pretty damn good.

Outside of the non-polarized white mirror glow/haze I see off-angle with blacks, it has a virtually perfect viewing angle horizontally and vertically, and provides a very stable image, not possible on TNs. And the price difference compared to the best quality 22" TNs like the LG L227WT is only $50.00 Canadian.

Compared to an HP W2207H with 1 year warranty (vs. Dell's 3) there is only a $40.00 difference, and it's not even close. Even better, in regards to input lag, I can't notice any difference between the W2209A and any 22" TN panel I've used. Digitalversus says it averages 9ms and peaks at 20, which I'd believe in this case.

Even these days, most S-PVA panels have reduced the horizontal gamma shift and on-angle "dark spot" off-angle brightness shift compared to older MVAs making them more compelling outside of input lag. While they trail in viewing angles and text sharpness to IPS, they are improving.

Unfortunately in the viewing angle category, I haven't seen TNs get any better over time. Additionally it's a crap shoot with them. If I compare two BenQ screens, the E2400HD, and E2200HD, the E2400HD has pretty good 6-bit + HiFrc which shows no visible dithering or excessive banding. The E2200HD (also a 1080p TN) shows visible temporal (moving) dithering, banding, and other visual artifacts which is very disappointing.

I don't see these issues on any IPS.

Snowdog said:
Stop blaming the retailer. The consumer chose this.

We are heading (mostly there) toward the Walmartization of America. Most people buy cheapest regardless of loss of quality. Eventually you have a hard time finding anything other than cheap junk. More expensive quality products are simply forced off the market.

I paid 3 or 4 times the price for my IPS LCD monitor, than you would for the average TN screen. Probably not 1 in a 1000 people would do that. Would you?

BTW Dell has a very decently priced IPS panel:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1387587
Click to expand...

To me it's just good money over bad. Spend cash on disposable items without thought or reasoning. I might spend excessive money on monitors and vid cards, but at least I buy top notch stuff that (most times) fulfill my requirements and wants.

Down with Wal-Mart :)
 
skyline889 said:
I do a lot of PS work and have never seen a monitor, calibrated or not, display colors as printed, so the point that IPS is better for "Pros" is moot to me as well.
Click to expand...

That's 'cause monitors create colors using RGB (Red, Green, Blue) while printed material is base on CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black). Since color creation standard is different it is difficult to ensure what is on the screen matches what is printed out.
 
the_b_man said:
For me it isn't the color accuracy, nor the 6 bits that bothers me about TN.
It's the damn color shifting. As I shift around in my chair, or look at different parts of the screen, it's like a subtly rotating rainbow. Light gray-on-white is the perfect example, at the top of the screen the whites look brighter, and at the bottom the grays look brighter, and part of the screen they look the same. Whites are never white, they're either bluish or yellowish depending on where my eyes are relative to the screen. I have two TN panels at work and they really gross me out. The TN I have at home was a rush purchase to replace my beloved CRT and when I have the money it's getting replaced.
Shame on Best Buy, etc. for not carrying any decent monitors. I'm having a heck of a time even finding a PVA/MVA monitor anywhere.
/rant
Click to expand...

Ditto !!

I argued that same point till i got my new rig together. Moving around in my chair with a samsung t240 was pissing me off with my old rig.

My i7 rig with Planar PX2611W is a dream to look at. Did not really calibrate it yet, just minor tweaks to brightness and contrast. The reds stand out a little on this site but i can live with that till i tweak it. Rig has been up for less than a day.
 
I get compliments from fellow college students (ones who know nothing about computers or display) about the viewing angles on my soyo. We go watch movies on their cheapo 20" lcd and nobody but the person sitting straight ahead can see whats going on. But then again, that may be a situation only typical to college students (20 people crowded in a dorm room watching a 24" screen... some from the lofted bed, others from the floor, and some from the far side)
 
skyline889 said:
That's all good and well if you can afford 3 or 4 times the price of a TN to go for IPS. To me, I have better and more pressing things to do with my money and this constant TN/VA bashing is so annoying.

TNs yes, are cheap, but they're great for gaming and while viewing angles are poor, just because it bothers you or me, doesn't mean it bothers everyone so why would they pay more for something they don't need. And as for VAs, the only problem I see is a slight brightness shift from edge to center but the fact of the matter is that I'd rather have that than the off angle white glow found in the bulk of IPS monitors that don't have ATW polarizers. Main point is different strokes for different folks. I bought my HP LP2465 for $250 with Live cashback and the performance it offers is great. It's a P-MVA and offers amazing black levels, natural whites, and great color accuracy for the price; I don't need a $650 LP2475 or worse a $1000 2490 to say that I have a good monitor that satisfies my needs. I do a lot of PS work and have never seen a monitor, calibrated or not, display colors as printed, so the point that IPS is better for "Pros" is moot to me as well.
Click to expand...

Afford it? Are you being serious or what?

Displays have NEVER been cheaper today than what is offered in terms of screen size/price available.

What do you mean by "Afford" it? Displays have always been expensive, only in the past couple years have 22"+ displays EVER become "affordable".

Just a few years back you couldn't get a good 22" LCD under $400, and a 24" was even more, yet now we have people on these forums of all places whining about paying over $200 for a 22" TN panel, LED backlit display.

People had no problem affording PC's and peripherals when they were around three to four times as expensive as they are now, but now, in 2009, consumers want their electronics DIRT CHEAP and enthusiasts in many areas are paying the price.
 
steal said:
Afford it? Are you being serious or what?

Displays have NEVER been cheaper today than what is offered in terms of screen size/price available.

What do you mean by "Afford" it? Displays have always been expensive, only in the past couple years have 22"+ displays EVER become "affordable".

Just a few years back you couldn't get a good 22" LCD under $400, and a 24" was even more, yet now we have people on these forums of all places whining about paying over $200 for a 22" TN panel, LED backlit display.

People had no problem affording PC's and peripherals when they were around three to four times as expensive as they are now, but now, in 2009, consumers want their electronics DIRT CHEAP and enthusiasts in many areas are paying the price.
Click to expand...
Preaching to the choir. Did I ever write about prices being too high for TN panels? No. I paid $450 for my 17" Samsung TN back in 2002. Does this ease the fact that decent IPS monitors start at $650 and go up from there? No. Do I have better things to do with my money then spend $600-1200 on a monitor that doesn't perform any better to my personal preferences than the $250-400 I've spent on my VA panel monitors? Yes. If you can write off a $1k monitor as cheap, kudos to you. Not all of us can afford the same luxury.
 
I have an Acer AL1917W (19" widescreen TN) that a relative gave me because it came with a laptop bundle and he wasn't going to use it.

Yeah, if you try to view it from a side angle, it doesn't look as good, but sitting directly in front (which one normally does) it looks crystal clear, the colors are deep and vibrant and the text is crisp. I hooked up an older flatscreen CRT recently to check a few things, and it looked like crap in comparison.

Hubby has a Samsung Synchmaster 275T 27". It looks great, but I really couldn't justify the cost for my use since I don't game at all.

For someone who's just web surfing or using Word, I can't see the need to spend more on a monitor than is necessary. Like how you can spend more on a high-end video card than for an entire lower-end PC.
 
steal said:
Afford it? Are you being serious or what?

Displays have NEVER been cheaper today than what is offered in terms of screen size/price available.

What do you mean by "Afford" it? Displays have always been expensive, only in the past couple years have 22"+ displays EVER become "affordable".

Just a few years back you couldn't get a good 22" LCD under $400, and a 24" was even more, yet now we have people on these forums of all places whining about paying over $200 for a 22" TN panel, LED backlit display.

People had no problem affording PC's and peripherals when they were around three to four times as expensive as they are now, but now, in 2009, consumers want their electronics DIRT CHEAP and enthusiasts in many areas are paying the price.
Click to expand...

I rember paying over $1700.00 for My 21 in. Sony GDM-F520 and it is still worth every penny. I rember when a soso desktop computer sold for about 3500.00 too, or how about paying an extra $400 for the 80487 math coprocesser.

Yep those were the days.

Dave
 
daveswantek said:
I rember paying over $1700.00 for My 21 in. Sony GDM-F520 and it is still worth every penny. I rember when a soso desktop computer sold for about 3500.00 too, or how about paying an extra $400 for the 80487 math coprocesser.

Yep those were the days.

Dave
Click to expand...

I remember when people got pissed when they found out that 80487 wasn't really a math processor but a 486 with it FPU not disabled and they could have gotten a 486DX-33 computer for $200 less and had a faster computer.


As far as TN goes, I've got a 28" TN that I paid $500 for a year ago and have been happy with it since. I even like it better than the 20.1" S-PVA that it replaced.
 
Unfortunately, TN is just how it is going to be with LCD technology. Most people aren't that interested in quality, they are interested in size. Thus monitors with good panels don't move well in stores. People see a 26" monitor for $1000 and a 26" monitor for $400, they buy the cheap one.

It's the same thing you find with all kinds of stuff. The widespread "consumer" stuff is low quality, low price.

The good news is since there is a market for higher end stuff, some companies will fill that market. So you CAN get higher end displays. Bad news is that they are going to be more costly, and you'll have less options. The general area to look as professional stuff. That's true in most arenas. When you want something high quality, you get what the pros use.

For monitors, I'm a big NEC fan. Now not all NEC's monitors are high quality, they make consumer grade monitors too. However their Multisync 90 series is targeted at graphics professionals and uses great IPS panels. The major downside is, of course, the price. You are talking like $50 for a 19", $1000 for a 24" and $2000+ for a 30". However they have a top quality image. I love mine.

So while TN is here to stay as cheap consumer panels, there's good ones and companies haven't stopped making them. If you can't find them you are doing one of two things:

1) Not looking in the right places. Like I said, have to look at more professional displays. You'll probably have to buy online, as most big box stores aren't interested in carrying them as they don't sell enough. Online retailers like Newegg carry them, also video places like B&H carry them.

2) Being cheap. You are demanding high quality for low prices. Well that you can't have. It costs money to get quality. So if you have the attitude of "I'm only willing to spend $200," well then accept that you get a lower quality display. If you want a higher quality one, change your budget. You can have cheap or you can have quality, you can't have both. Which one you want is up to you.
 
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