Why doesn't the industry do anything about backlight bleeding?

Megalith

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I'm seriously sick of tired of that shit. With their resources, why haven't companies integrated some kind of scanner that checks panels for their light uniformity during the manufacturing process? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems perfectly feasible.

I'm not asking for 100% uniformity, but it's sad when every device I buy (that isn't OLED) has a spike of light coming from a random edge on the panel.
 

ThinJ

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Because the vast majority of people aren't like us and don't give a shit.
 

kossair

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Above user is right. If people were more informed or actually gave a shit to what they buy, then the industry would be more wary.

Just the other day I've returned a TV which clearly had very bad uniformity, banding, DSE, and a dead pixel on top of it all. The clerk working there looked at me all puzzled when I showed him the panel and explained my reasons. Got my money back though.

Mind you, I've also returned countless monitors and I still can't find anything without some kind of flaw and I've been on the market for a new panel for almost two years now...My old TN panel still goes strong. It's so frustrating though!
 

d8lock

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If you're lucky enough to have a friend that actually knows his stuff then I'd have them let you test out all the monitors there to pick which one has the least amount of bleed without any dead/stuck pixels. The Korean monitors off ebay have "pixel free" versions, but that is less than a guarantee. The one I ordered came without any bad pixels but does have very slight light bleed in the bottom right corner.
 

NCX

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These are the same people who decided to make all of the launch 24"+ affordable S-PVA & IPS panels wide gamut yet failed to provide any sort of warning for the average consumer, use grainy matte coatings on monitors meant for critical color work and use LED PWM Dimming despite being aware of the negative effects it can cause.
 
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999

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I need to link EIZO USA to this thread to get an answer from them as well.

$900 monitor, three areas of light bleeding and three dead pixels is "within specs" for EIZO.
 

Namelessme

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That's what bugs me and what I also don't get.

Cheap consumer model with bleed, okay... it shouldn't happen, and is still wrong, but I can understand the saying: 'You get what you pay for'. If I spend $150 for a cheapo monitor and it has bleed, I can at least understand it ... I took a risk paying less.

If a person pays $300+ for a monitor, or goes high end with an Eizo or pro NEC, there is no excuse at all for bleed. Yet it still occurs quite often. I guess the only reason it happens is that manufacturers look at it from a cost analysis: it's cheaper for them to refund those who complain/send back their monitors, than simply use proper quality control.

The danger for companies like NEC and Eizo is it then means consumers have no valid reason for paying a high price for their monitors to begin with. The only supposed value in a high end monitor is better quality control. You'd think they'd understand this.
 

Panmaster

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How exactly would you even fix backlight bleed? Is it a case of applying more adhesive inside the panel?
I know that pressing down on it makes it worse so it's definitely not simply due to gaps in the edges or maybe it really is simple and easily preventable if panels were made by hand?
If only the panel was as easy to open as the tower case. Alas there are no screws or any other obvious means of detachment. Forcing it is too risky.
 

Liggywuh

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How exactly would you even fix backlight bleed? Is it a case of applying more adhesive inside the panel?
I know that pressing down on it makes it worse so it's definitely not simply due to gaps in the edges or maybe it really is simple and easily preventable if panels were made by hand?
If only the panel was as easy to open as the tower case. Alas there are no screws or any other obvious means of detachment. Forcing it is too risky.

You need to make sure that the light source is even (as in the whole of the light source, be it CCFL tubes or LEDs are of roughly the same intensity), and that the distance from the panel to the light source is kept as uniform as possible. I cannot fathom why this is so hard either, you can bin all the LEDs to be used for backlights, very easy to check them during the testing phase before assembly, and use LEDs from the same bin for a specific monitor.

Or I guess you could not give a shit, and throw it together with whatever panel and backlight you want, like the industry does these days!

EDIT: Looking at this... http://www.choosethebestmonitor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/array_vs_edge-lit_backlights.jpeg it seems that the way the panel is fixed, and the diffuser seems to effect the backlight bleed. No reason that one specific corner of a screen would have higher intensity LEDs, etc
 

Nenu

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How exactly would you even fix backlight bleed? Is it a case of applying more adhesive inside the panel?
I know that pressing down on it makes it worse so it's definitely not simply due to gaps in the edges or maybe it really is simple and easily preventable if panels were made by hand?
If only the panel was as easy to open as the tower case. Alas there are no screws or any other obvious means of detachment. Forcing it is too risky.

Make the panel slightly larger, coat the edges that are hidden behind the bezel with a black coating.
 

Ocellaris

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It doesn't matter how much the display costs, manufacturers will be trying to manufacture it as cheaply as they can get away with.

For each person that cares about this stuff, there is probably a whole office of people that will upgrade to displays based on them wanting pro displays. I've seen $700 flat panels get delivered by the pallet, all that mattered was that they turned on.
 

StoleMyOwnCar

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That's a very good point.


Part of the problem with pro displays is that a lot of them are probably simply paid for by a company that just hands them to a worker to use. When you're a worker at a company that's working on a piece of equipment that's not yours.... well... do you give a crap if it's not perfect? Nope, it works and it's not on your money. Kind of an example of corporations screwing the consumer over indirectly (and technically directly in the case of the ones producing these things).

This laptop that I'm working on that the corporation gave me to work on right now. Do I care how much it sucks or about its flaws? Nope. What about this monitor and this keyboard and this phone and this desk and drawers? Nope. I can work on them and I didn't pay for them.
 

Namelessme

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We do tend to underestimate just how blind most users seem to be with displays.

Many will assume bleed is normal, or bleed is no big deal. That is who most manufacturers cater to, unfortunately. An example would be my brother-in-law ... I checked out his lousy TN display, and noticed he didn't even run it at the correct resolution. I corrected it for him, explained why running an LCD at the wrong res matters... yet he didn't care. He just liked the fact that text was big and the monitor was bright.

Sort of similar to how he sets up his TVs.... super saturated, bright colors, tint is off... but he doesn't seem to care. I just remember not to watch TV or look at his computer when I visit.

But good manufacturers should still care. Perhaps as consumers get better educated, realize every manufacturer uses the same panel as everyone else, that quality control and extra features is what makes certain manufacturers stand out. Although if all manufacturers stink, then we just play the buy/return game, a lot.
 

Panmaster

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Manufacturers should be forced by the EU to have a maximum backlight bleed say around +-10% ISO-thingy just like there is for dead pixels.
There are posts somewhere about warranty returns being refused for backlight bleed which is unacceptable. Backlight bleed is never mentioned on spec sheets so why would one not think it is a fault? :mad:
 

Ocellaris

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I checked out his lousy TN display, and noticed he didn't even run it at the correct resolution. I corrected it for him, explained why running an LCD at the wrong res matters... yet he didn't care. He just liked the fact that text was big and the monitor was bright.

Sort of similar to how he sets up his TVs.... super saturated, bright colors, tint is off... but he doesn't seem to care. I just remember not to watch TV or look at his computer when I visit.

Yep, I think we all know people like that. Drives me crazy, I know people with TVs so bright I cannot look at them in a dark room without eyestrain. Tons of people screw up HDMI full/limited settings as well. Apparently they don't understand it, and they don't notice everything that should be black is a bright gray instead. I watched Shutter Island on someone's badly configured TV, there was zero shadow detail and the room was being brightly lit by the TV. After spending $1000+ on a TV and Blu Ray player, one might think people should put a few minutes into setting it up?

When it comes down to it, those are the people who determine how the market goes. Even people that don't know how to calibrate displays will often want "good" displays just because they can afford them. My parents bought an upper tier Samsung smart TV last year because they thought it was better than a "normal" TV. 16 months into owning it and they haven't even considered pressing the SmartTV function buttons on the remote. That TV is still set to "Vivid" or whatever blinding light mode it came out of the box as.

Money doesn't translate to knowledge or good decision making. Here is a glorious example of this:
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/...s-owners-think-their-car-is-front-wheel-drive
 
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Outbreaker

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That's true but the industry has found out that it is more rentable to fool people than producing good quality.
For example Displays:
+20000:1 Contrast
-6 Response Time
+170 Viewing Angle
...
Yeah for sure. :D
The state should put a stop to this illegal industry tactics it's out right lying to customers.
 
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Megalith

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Also, riddle me this. Why is it that most of the display technologies that don't have similar issues never take off?

Plasma, dead.

VA panels, hardly any on market. (Monitors, anyway.)
 

Nenu

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Lack of marketing.
Plasma improved in a lot of ways that most people havent got a clue about.
Some still think you need to recharge the plasma cells periodically !
Most people, even techies think they use a lot of power and have bad burn in issues.
They use a little more power than LCDs, an extra 1/2 sip and to get close to matching the quality you have to spend about 3x the amount on an LCD equivalent.

I dont remember ever seeing an advert that pushed the advances and gave a perspective that made sense for a purchaser.
Sales people dont know how to sell them either, they are largely responsible for lots of misinformation.
 

Namelessme

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That's true but the industry has found out that it is more rentable to fool people than producing good quality.
For example Displays:
+20000:1 Contrast
-6 Response Time
+170 Viewing Angle
...
Yeah for sure. :D
The state should put a stop to this illegal industry tactics it's out right lying to customers.

I've wondered how they even get away with false claims. There is some leeway, I expect, legally, but sometimes manufacturers flat out lie. How many static contrast claims are actually accurate? 1000:1 contrast quite often equals 800:1. 5000:1 can equal 3000:1. Isn't that deceptive marketing? That doesn't even count dynamic contrast, which is another form of a lie. Or response times.
 

Morkai

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Maybe its a social-economical-technical entanglement.
Most people don't seem care about quality in any part of their lives, so professionally they never make enough money to buy things of high quality that they don't really need anyway, since they don't care that much about quality of the first place. The market adjusts to this.

The vast majority of products become like the vast majority of humanity; poor quality ;)

I mainly mean it as a joke, but i'm sure it has a grain of truth.

The median gamer probably plays on an aging console, on a blurry unsmooth 60hz LCD with incorrect colors, gray blacks, backlight bleeding, input lag - and is quite happy with it!
 

StoleMyOwnCar

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Yeah, after reading through reviews and considering our budget of around <=1k, I decided upon a Panasonic plasma as our living room TV. Haven't really regretted it, it's got a pretty decent picture. For the price probably can't be beat. At first a family member kept whining about how it wasn't as thin as some person's LCD and I sat their facepalming while ignoring that family member.

... Though that person whining tells you about how tech-stupid normal people are. "BUT IT AIN'T AS THIN".
 

Chad_Thunder

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Yeah sad news, I am writing a calibration guide for the last series of Panasonic plasma monitors which I will post here at hardforum first (I doubt there is many left)

[PF50]
42PF50U, 42PF50E, 42PF50ER, 42PF50J, 42PF50W 42"
50PF50U, 50PF50E, 50PF50ER, 50PF50J, 50PF50W 50"
60PF50U, 60PF50E, 60PF50ER, 60PF50J, 60PF50W 60"
65PF50U, 65PF50E, 65PF50ER, 65PF50J, 65PF50W 65"

[PF30]
42PF30U, 42PF30E, 42PF30ER, 42PF30J, 42PF30W 42"
50PF30U, 50PF30E, 50PF30ER, 50PF30J, 50PF30W 50"
60PF30U, 60PF30E, 60PF30ER, 60PF30J, 60PF30W 60"
65PF30U, 65PF30E, 65PF30ER, 65PF30J, 65PF30W 65"

[BT300]
42BT300U, 42BT300E, 42BT300ER, 42BT300W 42"
42BT300U, 50BT300E, 50BT300ER, 50BT300W 50"

[VX300]
65VX300U, 65VX300E, 65VX300ER, 65VX300W 65"

North America(U) / Europe(E) / United Kingdom(ER) / Japan(J) / Asia, Oceania, Middle East, South America(W)
 

Chad_Thunder

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When you are talking about plasma there is no back light, every pixel is self illuminated same as OLED ;)



Sony Trinitron 21" vs Panasonic 42PF30 42" contrast and uniformity
 

geok1ng

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems perfectly feasible.

I would suggest you to read more threads about backlight bleeding fixes so you get a grasp of what causes BLB and how hard it is to avoid it.

Larger flat panels must be fixed in the frame WITHOUT TENSION, then the monitor must be shipped across the pacific ocean towards your country. all the while temperatures and shaking can bend the panel and you end up with BLB. If a TFT panel could be installed with tension maybe BLB was not such a common finding in larger monitors. a possible workaround would be a system that allowed the end user to re-seat the panel in the frame using knobs and moving rulers, but any larger monitor case with such a system would either be too flimsy or too fat, and the market wants thin and sturdy bezels.

Returning a monitor for BLB and expecting the replacement to have less BLB is about as useless as asking a plesure services provider your money back because your toy is too small to make things enjoyable.
 

NCX

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Used Apple's online chat to ask if thew new Macbook Pro Retina's use LED PWM Dimming. Answer: "Apple does not publish any information about the dimming technology behind the Retina display." Fail.
 

RadXge

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When will Panasonic be releasing 4k plasmas? (apart from the £600k one obviously:p)

Unless your seating distance is unusually short, 4K is useless for televisions smaller than 70". Another issue is the lack of format supporting 4K (e.g. cable network / blu-ray). For most peoples including myself, I really do not see the point of 4K for HDTV purposes.
 

Namelessme

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Unless your seating distance is unusually short, 4K is useless for televisions smaller than 70". Another issue is the lack of format supporting 4K (e.g. cable network / blu-ray). For most peoples including myself, I really do not see the point of 4K for HDTV purposes.

Yeah, that's how I feel about it too. I think people forget that there isn't actual content to even play at 4K, so all it will do is upscale. It's like buying a 1080p display, and only being able to play SD channels or old DVDs on it (slight exaggeration). And that doesn't even include the fact, like you say, unless you are getting a giant TV or sitting really close, you won't even be able to see the difference.

I wish there was more of a marketing push for OLED over 4K stuff.
 

Nenu

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Its not that things are being forgotten, its a new standard and like most new standards will take time to become established.
There are some very good uses for larger res displays, they arent just for TV.

Also upscaling 1080p to 4K can help extract detail.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/upscaling-4k

As pointed out, for most situations, a larger TV will help a lot.
4K will push (force :)) larger TVs to become more the norm.
Its gonna take years, it will happen.

My main beef is the quality of early displays, lack of display port / HDMI 2 and prices need to stabilise.
If those were sorted now, there would be much less reason to buy a 1080p TV especially for enthusiasts.
A 4K TV with fast input will do 1080p at 120Hz+ too.
 

Namelessme

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As pointed out, for most situations, a larger TV will help a lot.
4K will push (force :)) larger TVs to become more the norm.
Its gonna take years, it will happen.
.

Well, one problem I see is that not everyone has the room for larger TVs. 65-70" TVs require quite a bit of space, and the alternative of sitting super close isn't that common either. The market may push in that direction (as it's more expense for consumers, so it's obvious they would)... I am just not so sure the consumer will play along.

Then again, as this thread has illustrated, marketing trumps logic with many consumers. if HD is standard, 4K will be fantastic... regardless if the consumer can actually see any difference on the screen, or if they have any 4K content to play.
 

Nenu

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If you dont have the room for a larger TV, chances are you have to sit closer anyway, so a 4K TV will still work out well.
You dont need to see all the extra detail to benefit.
 

Namelessme

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If you dont have the room for a larger TV, chances are you have to sit closer anyway, so a 4K TV will still work out well.
You dont need to see all the extra detail to benefit.

Not necessarily. 70" may take up more space than people want. And I expect it'll take up more of their bank account than they'd want too.

I'm not saying there is no market for 4K, nor that it won't benefit some people. I just think that it'd be nice if manufacturers spent more effort and marketing on improving image quality (OLED) vs 4K. Personally I think the potential benefits of OLED would outweigh 4K.
 

Nenu

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Not necessarily. 70" may take up more space than people want. And I expect it'll take up more of their bank account than they'd want too.
Backtracking, already covered.

I'm not saying there is no market for 4K, nor that it won't benefit some people. I just think that it'd be nice if manufacturers spent more effort and marketing on improving image quality (OLED) vs 4K.
You are starting a different debate thats nothing to do with 4K.
 
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