Why do you hate Apple? (intelligent discussion)

[!@#$%^&*()]

It is probably because I mainly hang in PC forums but I agree, the amount of vitriol and arrogance I see is far worse coming from the PC elitist side than the Mac side. If you are like me and happily use both you are still a fanboy in their eyes, it is pretty funny.

Yea!

While my posts in this thread may indirectly support the idea that I think PC's/android is inferior -- I do not! I always have had and always will have a PC desktop for gaming, and I love it!

I've used Android and also loved it, but in the end wasn't for me. I went and bought a product that I felt better suited my lifestyle, that is all!

There is no middle grounds anymore -- people expect someone who is pro-PC or Android, or someone who is pro-Apple

I get bewildered looks when I insist that a true enthusiast will embrace all technologies!

 

[J Macker]

Overpriced hardware.
Not enough game support.

Overpriced hardware. Older generation hardware.
I believe Apple should be move manufacturing to the USA because with the prices they charge, they should be able to shrink their profit margin and provide some American jobs.

They've got so much money they don't know what to do with it. Hm... let's pay dividends to the investors!

Oh, how about you move the manufacturing jobs into the USA instead?
Or lower your prices so the hardware isn't so overpriced?

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

The same could be said about HP, Dell, etc. But building your own is only a small amount cheaper, but with much better components. Apple uses the same crappy components but add $1000 for OSx. The touchpad is better on an Apple but not $500 better, neither is the display for that matter.

Re-read what you quoted from me. Try to make it to the end before you quote someone.


At this point this is a blatant troll attempt and I will not be responding.

 

[viralcow]

You just proved my point

you're comparing a plastic jet engine to a business class laptop that are not even remotely close in form factor (13.3" vs 15.6")

Go look at the HP Envy Spectre 14" for a far better comparison.

edit: apparently HP stopped using aluminum for their casings in the envy line

The 15 inch MBP is $1800. The cpu and gpu are comparable to the $650 HP.

So. You are telling me that the aluminum chassis is worth $1150? But I would hardly say the HP pavilion lines are plastic jet engines. I think they look and feel rather nice, actually. And you're rather missing the point. The specs of your 13 inch MBP is... comparable to a $400 budget PC.

Of course, Apple caters to a high-end products. And the disdain PC enthusiasts have for macs is similar to how audiophiles look at Beats condescendingly. A $400 headphone should have the sound quality and comfort respectable of that price tag.

By the way. My friend also has an envy 14 (when it used to be aluminum) and he got it for $900 shipped with far better specs.
Still cheaper.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

The 15 inch MBP is $1800. The cpu and gpu are comparable to the $650 HP.

So. You are telling me that the aluminum chassis is worth $1150? And I would hardly say the HP pavilion lines are plastic jet engines. I think they look and feel rather nice, actually.

By the way. My friend also has an envy 14 (when it used to be aluminum) and he got it for $900 shipped with far better specs.

Still cheaper.

Actually yes, it is a plastic jet engine. It doesn't hold a candle to a MBP.

You're comparing a turbo civic to a mercedes. It is faster, and therefore better!

As someone else mentioned the EliteBook line -- http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/e...45-3955549-5056949-5056952-5232794.html?dnr=1

Feel free to make comparisons of something that makes sense.

 

[Empty_Quarter]

They're comparable to equally built/specced machines from Dell and Lenovo. In some cases, even cheaper.

No.

Oh, I got an example:

As mentioned, you can also use coupon codes in addition to these discounts.

 

[viralcow]

What is this prejudice against plastic computers? Why pick ridiculously overpriced "business" laptops that are trying to copy Apple to begin with? No, that comparison doesn't make sense.

And why not compare Civics to Mercedes? If the Mercedes costs four times more, it makes little sense it should be worse performance wise. Most people will agree that luxury car brands are overpriced compared to budget-friendly family cars that gets the job done at half the price.

I think it's clear performance/price wise, PCs are the way to go.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

No.

Oh, I got an example:

As mentioned, you can also use coupon codes in addition to these discounts.

How thick is that? What sort of battery life? Backlit keyboard? Wonderful trackpad? a quadro 1000m? Plastic construction?

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

What is this prejudice against plastic computers? Why pick ridiculously overpriced "business" laptops that are trying to copy Apple to begin with? No, that comparison doesn't make sense.

And why not compare Civics to Mercedes? If the Mercedes costs four times more, it makes little sense it should be worse performance wise. Most people will agree that luxury car brands are overpriced compared to budget-friendly family cars that gets the job done at half the price.

I think it's clear performance/price wise, PCs are the way to go.

No one compares Civics to Mercedes. If a person has the intent of getting a car in the 35-40k range because they want the luxury, they will not be looking at civics.

To even suggest a Civic to that person would be lol-worthy.

 

[viralcow]

You don't know what a thinkpad is... I see I've been arguing with a troll all this time.

As proven by these last several posts, you don't add anything constructive to this "debate" at all. Sigh. I'm out, no need to discuss further.

 

[Snowdog]

It is probably because I mainly hang in PC forums but I agree, the amount of vitriol and arrogance I see is far worse coming from the PC elitist side than the Mac side. If you are like me and happily use both you are still a fanboy in their eyes, it is pretty funny.

They still call you an Apple fanboy, even if you never owned an Apple product in your life, but happen to point out their childish behavior.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

You don't know what a thinkpad is... I see I've been arguing with a troll all this time.

As proven by these last several posts, you don't add anything constructive to this "debate" at all. Sigh. I'm out, no need to discuss further.

I've owned ThinkPads.

They're great machines. I never said otherwise.

Just pointing out the obvious design/quality differences, that is all.

 

[PointandClick]

I used to be an Apple "hater". In Jr. High we had some old G3's that we used in typing class then in HS it was all Macs. I think a lot of it was just that they were different from what I was used to and worked differently from what I expected they should. I didn't like that the plus button didn't "maximize" the window, I didn't like that the close button didn't quit the app, didn't like that I couldn't alt tab between windows. When I really think about it I can't really give a good reason why I disliked them so much. I was just young and dumb I suppose. Now I'm not as young and barely more smarter.

When Apple switched to Intel I couldn't wait to get my hands on a MBP. I don't dislike Windows now, I just prefer to use OS X. OS X window management could still be better. My browser window doesn't need to take up the whole 24" screen, but I would prefer if it kept the windows on top of each other instead of moving them over when you launch a new one. Windows 7 feature where it fits a window to half the screen is really slick.

I feel like once I got used to OS X, and with the help of a few apps like Witch and Quicksilver, it provides a better workflow. System Preferences isn't perfect. Sometimes I find myself searching through the panels trying to find what I'm looking for, but it's nowhere near as convoluted as the Control Panel. The Control Panel just feels like your playing Minesweeper.
From a Techie standpoint, OS X (imo) is the perfect platform. The GUI lets me get work done when I need to, but since it's built on Unix it has all the power you might need. I have the Terminal available to ssh into my server and do some configuring or shut it down, but if I don't want to I never have to touch it.

As far as pricing, it seems to vary based on several factors. Since Apple has relatively few different models and only refreshes them every so often a machine purchased right after an update will probably be competitively priced. It's fairly obvious that if you want the cheapest machine that will get the job done you're looking in the wrong place.

In regards to Apple's business practices, they're a company just like any other. They're out to make money. If you think Apple does anything any other company wouldn't do given half a chance you have more faith than I.

 

[Empty_Quarter]

How thick is that? What sort of battery life? Backlit keyboard? Wonderful trackpad? a quadro 1000m? Plastic construction?

Thickness is great, pretty standard, thicker than MBP if you want to get nitty and gritty, sure. Battery is pretty good, much much better than my older W500, 4 hours, i've never run into a situation where I desperately needed to plug in. The trackpads are actually pretty darn good, you don't get gestures, but its texture/build is pretty good, its gotten even better on the W520.

Yes 1000m, workstation VGA?

The construction is carbon-fiber/glass-fiber reinforced plastic, and the reputation of the build quality of thinkpads I think speaks for itself, they are built like tanks.

This debate is about PCs being cheaper, and PCs being cost effective. This topic has been beaten to death, and its known that macs cost more (all of them, the imac alas has excellent value, just because of the screen). If you want to spend more on a mac for whatever reason (looks, thin-ness, whatever), that's fine, but from a performance/dollar perspective, mbps are expensive as shite. If you want to spend an extra $450 on its aluminum build and large trackpad, by all means do so, but that doesn't make it a better value than a PC.

The Thinkpad I linked already has better performance than the MBP with a $450 difference. I can do lots of upgrades with that, imagine the performance for the same cost as an MBP.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

Thickness is great, pretty standard, thicker than MBP if you want to get nitty and gritty, sure. Battery is pretty good, much much better than my older W500, 4 hours, i've never run into a situation where I desperately needed to plug in. The trackpads are actually pretty darn good, you don't get gestures, but its texture/build is pretty good, its gotten even better on the W520.

Yes 1000m, workstation VGA?

The construction is carbon-fiber/glass-fiber reinforced plastic, and the reputation of the build quality of thinkpads I think speaks for itself, they are built like tanks.

This debate is about PCs being cheaper, and PCs being cost effective. This topic has been beaten to death, and its known that macs cost more (all of them, the imac alas has excellent value, just because of the screen). If you want to spend more on a mac for whatever reason (looks, thin-ness, whatever), that's fine, but from a performance/dollar perspective, mbps are expensive as shite. If you want to spend an extra $450 on its aluminum build and large trackpad, by all means do so, but that doesn't make it a better value than a PC.

The Thinkpad I linked already has better performance than the MBP with a $450 difference. I can do lots of upgrades with that, imagine the performance for the same cost as an MBP.

Thing is though, it really wasn't:

Originally Posted by !@#$%^&*()
They're comparable to equally built/specced machines from Dell and Lenovo. In some cases, even cheaper.

Make note of equally built.

No one will tell you a ThinkPad is a bad machine -- but as you've admitted, it doesn't contain half of the luxuries of a MBP. Those luxuries are totally subjective in terms of if they're worth it -- to some they're not, to some of us they are.

To say a machine is outright better because you don't believe the luxuries are worth it is a bit silly to me.

 

[GeekTech]

I still chuckle when an Apple owner starts going on about how vastly superior Apple computers are for multimedia (Photoshop, video editing etc), and that is why professionals use them instead of Windows machines. Apple hasn't had an upper leg in that arena in years, at least since Windows 7 landed.

I don't hate Apple. I loathe certain products, mostly just the piece of shit that is iTunes, and if I had the cash to blow, I would own a MBP as a general use lappy. But, because I like the styling, build quality etc, not because it's supposedly superior spec wise.

Every OS and manufacturer has their perks and their misses.

 

[viralcow]

I'm assuming we're all in agreement here- that PCs are cost effective, and that Apple offers high-end products, neither of which were contested.

Speaking of luxuries, thinkpads offer possibly the best keyboard in the industry. Much more practical, imo.

To say a machine is outright better because you don't believe the luxuries are worth it is a bit silly to me.

Then would you argue that Beats by Dre are "competitive" compared to true audiophile headphones? What about Dyson vacuums? Both are infamous for being overpriced.

When talking strictly about cost-efficiency, luxuries become irrelevant.

 

[dr.stevil]

I still chuckle when an Apple owner starts going on about how vastly superior Apple computers are for multimedia (Photoshop, video editing etc), and that is why professionals use them instead of Windows machines. Apple hasn't had an upper leg in that arena in years, at least since Windows 7 landed.

well, to be fair... a lot of professionals do use macs in that field. I wouldn't say they're superior though. Since PC's and Mac's all run the same hardware these days, it's really personal preference with the OS. With a few exceptions, they both run the same software and they can both, technically, run both OS's natively.

Like I said in the OP, I was forced to use one in college for graphic design and I was slow as hell on one. They made us learn on macs though because that's what most of the industry was using.

 

[Empty_Quarter]

Thing is though, it really wasn't:




Make note of equally built.

No one will tell you a ThinkPad is a bad machine -- but as you've admitted, it doesn't contain half of the luxuries of a MBP. Those luxuries are totally subjective in terms of if they're worth it -- to some they're not, to some of us they are.

To say a machine is outright better because you don't believe the luxuries are worth it is a bit silly to me.

I never said "better" too mind you, I said better value. Objectively, the thinkpad is better value, because I can take the two specs, and compare it on an even playing field. Anything beyond that is subjective, and how the user "feels" about it, other than battery time.

I am simply comparing the 15 mbp with other laptops because I've done this multiple times over. If you are looking for a laptop in this range, performance is somewhat important, and sort of a big deal.

Using your statement, what other laptop from dell and lenovo can you find, that is 1) similarly built to the mbp 15 according to your definition 2) has equal performance and 3) may even be cheaper? That's what I'm confused about.

The Dell Latitude with better CPU and 1080p is cheaper than mbp base.

 

[dr.stevil]

When talking strictly about cost-efficiency, luxuries become irrelevant.

Obviously

That's why most of us build PC's instead of getting a pre-built machine. Best bang for the buck

 

[wonderfield]

I'm assuming we're all in agreement here- that PCs are cost effective, and that Apple offers high-end products, neither of which were contested.

PCs aren't always very cost-effective, however. The machine I built — one I spared really no expense on — is really no more powerful than my Mac and was more expensive to build (it is, however, quieter). The effort involved in finding the right parts which offered the right aesthetic value with the right specs and the effort in assembling those parts only adds to the true cost of the machine (in terms of time, energy and component cost). The Mac? I ordered it. I plugged it in. I was done. Words don't effectively convey how simple that process really is. People really don't seem to understand the value in that simplicity.

Granted, the machine I built myself is very unique and, to me, well worth the expense, while the Mac I bought is not in any way unique, but neither is universally better than the other. Each machine excels in different ways.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

I'm assuming we're all in agreement here- that PCs are cost effective, and that Apple offers high-end products, neither of which were contested.

Speaking of luxuries, thinkpads offer possibly the best keyboard in the industry. Much more practical, imo.



Then would you argue that Beats by Dre are "competitive" compared to true audiophile headphones? What about Dyson vacuums? Both are infamous for being overpriced.

When talking strictly about cost-efficiency, luxuries become irrelevant.

Much more practical until you're in a dark room and can't see the keys. Right. Your practicality is different from others.

No one was talking about strictly cost-efficiency until you guys realized I was in fact, correct in my statements.

A similarly built and specced machine from any other manufacturer would be close in price.

Obviously a lower end plastic machine will be a "better value".

 

[heatlesssun]

PCs aren't always very cost-effective, however. The machine I built — one I spared really no expense on — is really no more powerful than my Mac and was more expensive to build (it is, however, quieter).

It doesn't make any sense that you spared no expensive building a PC and couldn't build one that kicks a Mac or most any other retail machine to the curb.

 

[scaarbelly]

Much more practical until you're in a dark room and can't see the keys. Right.

Not only can I see the keys on my notebook keyboard, but I can make them change colors. You know that there a quite a few non-mac laptops with backlit keyboards. Right.

It doesn't any sense that you spared no expensive building a PC and couldn't build one that kicks a Mac or most any other retail machine to the curb.

QFT!

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

Not only can I see the keys on my notebook keyboard, but I can make them change colors. You know that there a quite a few non-mac laptops with backlit keyboards. Right.





QFT!

We were talking about ThinkPad's -- specifically the w520. Do you own one, and is that backlit?

 

[scaarbelly]

We were talking about ThinkPad's -- specifically the w520. Do you own one, and is that backlit?

Thinkpad's? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about Apple.


Back to the topic at hand. I really love the ipod touch and the ipad. They are definitely more reasonably priced and great products, but their HUGE downfall is itunes limitations.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

Thinkpad's? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about Apple.

It is. You entered and claimed your laptop has a backlit keyboard as a retort to me questioning the practicality of the non-backlit keyboard of the Lenovo. I asked if you owned that Lenovo. So, do you?

So, either you can contribute like an intelligent human being and state what laptop you're talking about, or I'll just chalk this up to mindless trolling.

Judging by everything you've said in this thread thus far, I'm leaning towards the trolling option.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

I don't hate apple per sae as they are masters at getting people to buy average every day electronics at exhorbant prices.

lets give an example

Dell Vostro 1400 bought in 2008 has been in once for repair (thank you Nvidia for craptastic manufacurering of your video card) Now 4 years later it is still running strong with no futher repairs. Machine cost was $1050 as delivered with a Core 2 Duo, 4 GB Nvidia 8400GS-M, 320GB hard drive, Wireless G, Bluetooth, DVD writer and 1440*900 display

Mackbook Pro with Intel Core 2 duo, Nvidia 9X00 graphics, 500GB hdd, Wireless G, Bluetooth, 1440*900 LED display, backlit keyboard has been in the shop no less than 5 times for various repairs ranging from hard drive to cables to keyboard etc.... machine is about 3..8 years old. Machine cost ws $2300

Dell studio 1558 Core i5 520m, Ati 5470, 500GB 7200 rpm drive, 1080p display, Wireless N, backlit keyboard still working trouble free total cost $1208

Iphone batteries seem to die relatively quick I have fixed several of them after 1-2 years for dead batteries. by comparison my LG KM 900 is still on it's original battery since 2009.....my HD 2 is still on original battery since 2010...

The people not to like are the apple fanboys who think apple is great and everyone else sucks

 

[GeekTech]

It doesn't make any sense that you spared no expensive building a PC and couldn't build one that kicks a Mac or most any other retail machine to the curb.

This! If he spared no expense and couldn't build a PC that would crush a stock Apple for less, he's obviously doing something wrong or doesn't know much about computers.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

This! If he spared no expense and couldn't build a PC that would crush a stock Apple for less, he's obviously doing something wrong or doesn't know much about computers.

Depends on the parts he used.

It's not as black and white as you say, at all.

High end monitors, high end casings, high end keyboards and mice, speakers, etc, can all add up and place a similarly spec'ed machine well above the price of a pre-bought.

If anything, it appears that you're just looking at the spec for spec aspect, when he very clearly stated he was also looking at aesthetics.

I think a lot of you should slow down and read the posts here twice before you comment.

The effort involved in finding the right parts which offered the right aesthetic value with the right specs and the effort in assembling those parts only adds to the true cost of the machine (in terms of time, energy and component cost).

 

[Stone Cold]

Why I hate Apple, let me count the ways:

1) More expensive. In the past, similar PC power was often available for half the price.

2) Limited software, especially games. Deal breaker.

3) Apple's pursuit of style often results in less ergonomic products.products.

4) Closed system.

5) Apple has a history of obsoleting the investments of their customers, such as by changing platforms or quickly dropping legacy ports.

6) If money is no object, a more powerful PC can be had than the strongest Mac.

7) My school used Macs. I hate school.

8) Apple is a satanic symbol, the traditional fruit used by Satan to destroy paradise.

9) I didn't buy Apple stock in 1999.

10) Linux is free, if I choose not to use Windows.

 

[heatlesssun]

Depends on the parts he used.

It's not as black and white as you say, at all.

High end monitors, high end casings, high end keyboards and mice, speakers, etc, can all add up and place a similarly spec'ed machine well above the price of a pre-bought.

If anything, it appears that you're just looking at the spec for spec aspect, when he very clearly stated he was also looking at aesthetics.

I think a lot of you should slow down and read the posts here twice before you comment.

You're missing the point. He said he spared no expense that should include, you know like everything including the compute hardware.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

You're missing the point. He said he spared no expense that should include, you know like everything including the compute hardware.

I'm missing no point.

I think you just didn't actually read and correctly comprehend the message he was trying to get across and said his claims "make no sense" without knowing the full situation and without providing support for the claim.

 

[scaarbelly]

I'm missing no point.

I think you just didn't actually read and correctly comprehend the message he was trying to get across and said his claims "make no sense" without knowing the full situation and without providing support for the claim.

Ya, like I spend $10,000 on my computer speakers, so my pc from 2005 can play all current 2012 games at max settings and still blow away anything on the market today. Maybe his case is made of gold,

 

[wonderfield]

It doesn't make any sense that you spared no expensive building a PC and couldn't build one that kicks a Mac or most any other retail machine to the curb.

Performance was not the primary consideration. The goals were silence, aesthetics and performance, and in that order. I spent money on components which gave me a good combination of these three criteria. I didn't waste money, either, buying things to inflate the build cost, but only items that served one of the three main considerations.

When you take aesthetic value strongly into consideration, you'll be prepared to pay for it, as you'll often need to pay more for components which satisfy your aesthetic criteria. The same can be said of cooling performance and silence. This stuff costs money, and the cost of small components that most people dont bother to outfit their machines with adds up quickly.

 

[wonderfield]

This! If he spared no expense and couldn't build a PC that would crush a stock Apple for less, he's obviously doing something wrong or doesn't know much about computers.

You're in no position to make such claims.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

Ya, like I spend $10,000 on my computer speakers, so my pc from 2005 can play all current 2012 games at max settings and still blow away anything on the market today. Maybe his case is made of gold,

I have no idea what you're rambling on about.

 

[Empty_Quarter]

Much more practical until you're in a dark room and can't see the keys. Right. Your practicality is different from others.

You do realize that Thinkpads have "thinklight", right? You can see your keys in the dark if you really have to. If you've used a thinkpad, you would know this, and you would know that they cant use backlit keyboards, because they dont have space to do so, because their keyboards are essentially heavy duty and well built. On that note, the dell latitude has backlit keyboards, so whether I use the Dell or Lenovo to compare vs mac, it doesnt change anything.

You make it seem like backlit keyboards are worth the premium, any value $300 laptop at best buy will feature backlit keyboard nowadays. It's not that big of a deal. Even more so, its the era of touch typing, who still "looks" at their keyboard. Nevertheless... moving on.

A similarly built and specced machine from any other manufacturer would be close in price.

This is the second time you've said this, but have not provided any example. Last time I checked, the Lenovo W520, Dell Latitude 15" and HP Elitebook all compete directly with the MBP 15, unless there was a memo I never got. All three provide better specs, are just as durable, and are cheaper than the MBP. EDIT: I do remember a particular XPS model that was a popular alternative to the mbp, but that's because it was cheaper, dont remember which.

If similar built means unibody aluminum casing, then none of those compete, but dont disregard the build quality of the other three just because its not in a unibody casing.

 

[GeekTech]

You're in no position to make such claims.

Why, because I recently finally signed up after lurking on this site for 5 years?

So, he spent a lot of money on a slow, pretty, quiet computer. Good for him. Most people would spend less and have a PC that runs circles around anything Apple offers for much more money. By his own subsequent responses, it's clear performance wasn't a consideration, puts him in the third category, more money than brains. An area I have frequently been known to delve into myself, just in other hobbies.

 

[!@#$%^&*()]

You do realize that Thinkpads have "thinklight", right? You can see your keys in the dark if you really have to. If you've used a thinkpad, you would know this, and you would know that they cant use backlit keyboards, because they dont have space to do so, because their keyboards are essentially heavy duty and well built. On that note, the dell latitude has backlit keyboards, so whether I use the Dell or Lenovo to compare vs mac, it doesnt change anything.

You make it seem like backlit keyboards are worth the premium, any value $300 laptop at best buy will feature backlit keyboard nowadays. It's not that big of a deal. Even more so, its the era of touch typing, who still "looks" at their keyboard. Nevertheless... moving on.



This is the second time you've said this, but have not provided any example. Last time I checked, the Lenovo W520, Dell Latitude 15" and HP Elitebook all compete directly with the MBP 15, unless there was a memo I never got. All three provide better specs, are just as durable, and are cheaper than the MBP. EDIT: I do remember a particular XPS model that was a popular alternative to the mbp, but that's because it was cheaper, dont remember which.

If similar built means unibody aluminum casing, then none of those compete, but dont disregard the build quality of the other three just because its not in a unibody casing.

Aware of "Thinklight". Thought it was garbage.

The keyboard was mediocre at best.

You're trying to shift attention to the keyboard -- no point in going down that route. Lots of people don't touch type, especially when there are function keys involved.

None of those are true competitors. One machine I do consider to be a true competitor to the Macbook Pro lines is the VAIO Z series. Beautiful machines.