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Why do card makers try to confuse the average consumer?

J

joemama

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 13, 2000
Messages
9,576
We have the obvious (to those who know) like the 9800SE performing more on par with a 9600xt at stock speeds and then we have ATI using XT for top end cards and SE for mid-range and Nvidia using both XT and SE for mid range..

Then there's this beauty I found which is probably not much faster (if at all) than a 9500 W.T.F??
PowerColor RADEON 9550 Video Card, 256MB DDR 128-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model R96-LD3, Retail

Model# R96-LD3
Item # N82E16814131243

Specifications:
Chipset/Core Speed: ATI RADEON 9550/250MHz
Memory/Effective Speed: 256MB DDR/400MHz
BUS: AGP 8X
Ports: VGA Out (15 Pin D-Sub) + TV-Out (S-Video) + DVI-I
Support 3D API: DirectX 9.0, OpenGL 2.0
Cable/Accessories: A/V cable, S-Video cable, Installation Guide, Driver CD, WIN DVD Player
Max Resolution@32bit Color: 2048X1536
Retail Box (See pics for details)
 
So the card maker makes more money?

same in every bizness.
 
I couldn't find the 9550 anywhere on ATI's site. Im guessing its just an altered 9500 by sapphire and powercolor.
 
Forums such as these exist to keep people from buying things like this. People who don't make use of all available resources will wind up getting hosed.

ATi produces cards for pretty much every price range. You get what you pay for.

The same can be said for Nvidia. Execpt of course for the $550 6800U.

That price needs to drop, SOON.
 
133 said:
So the card maker makes more money?

same in every bizness.
Click to expand...
By duping n00bs into buying a card and then finding out later it's not what they thought it would be? Just imagine for a moment you are the average user who doesn't hang out on hardware sites and you go shopping for the best videocard within your budget..
 
Find me a retail store selling these cards.

The "average joe" tends to buy his cards in these stores.

If a person has an internet connection and does no research on computer component purchases, he deserves what he winds up with.

I like the naming scheme ATi uses. At the very least it makes the Average Joe happier. The Average Joe just want s as many big numbers in his system as possible. Look at how well Celeron 2.7Ghz systems sell at Walmart.
 
i think its just funny when a guy goes into best buy and spends more than $120 on a single stick of junky ram.

also when they get people to install the ram for them.

everyone wants everything done for them these days...only if they knew how easy it i

The adverage person probably thinks computers are too "complicated" on the insides just because of how it looks and all the wires.
 
I don't change my own oil. They don't install their own RAM.

what's the dif?
 
ameoba said:
I don't change my own oil. They don't install their own RAM.

what's the dif?
Click to expand...

yep thats exactly right. no human can 'do it yourself' with everything in life, regardless of how easy some person might say it is.
 
ameoba said:
I don't change my own oil. They don't install their own RAM.

what's the dif?
Click to expand...

You know, thats a good way to put it. Mechanics on mechanic message boards probably say the same thing :)

Many people dont have the time, or want to "do it yourself" People have jobs and families and lack the time it takes to learn, and keep up on computer hardware.

Anyways, i agree with the first poster. To many versions, to many models. I like the x300/x600/800 scheme. But i dont like the XT/PRO versions of each, and probably the SE's to come.

Whats wrong with having one chip for each market segment? Instead they take on the XT just so they can charge more. Pfft.
 
ameoba said:
I don't change my own oil. They don't install their own RAM.

what's the dif?
Click to expand...

Wow. That really is a great analogy. We passionate about computers and they are passionate about cars [and many of us fall into both categories].
 
ameoba said:
I don't change my own oil. They don't install their own RAM.

what's the dif?
Click to expand...
Perfectly put!
Like the poster above mentioned, mechanic message boards all probally laugh at us n00bs :p Each person has their own specialty I guess ;)
 
Yup, each person has a specialty. My dad still throws up his hands at me when I cant figure out the difference is between an to what will give better torque and what will give better horsepower.
 
the worst ways they have tricked the average consumer are the Geforce 4MX, which was acctually much slower than a geforce 3, and is basicly a geforce 2, and 256MB of ram on basic cards like an FX5200. Most people think more ram = more speed.
 
V0ltage said:
the worst ways they have tricked the average consumer are the Geforce 4MX, which was acctually much slower than a geforce 3, and is basicly a geforce 2, and 256MB of ram on basic cards like an FX5200. Most people think more ram = more speed.
Click to expand...
Yeah, exactly! The Geforce"4" MX sham is probably the worst one so far. I guess you really can't blame the video card guys when they see Intel pushing ghz and AMD using numbered names to mask the true clock speed of their processors.
Btw..to the above poster who mentioned oil changes, you can blame the car makers for padding the pockets of mechanics everywhere...my first car was a 66 Mustang that I did almost all of the work myself. Cars these days are designed in such a way that the average backyard mechanic is at a total loss just looking under the hood. The oil filter on my car can only be seen from the top but can only be reached from underneath. I save myself the pain in the ass by going to quicky lube but I don't have to.. ;)
 
nah, i think "se" for ati and "xt" for nvidia are worst. nvidia used "se" first on the gf4ti 4200 when "se" actually meant good...ati uses it and it turns to be a crapped out, half bandwidth/lower clocked version. ati used "xt" first on the 9600xt and it was good...nvidia uses it on their 5600xt and it was as slow as a gf4mx...
 
joemama said:
By duping n00bs into buying a card and then finding out later it's not what they thought it would be? Just imagine for a moment you are the average user who doesn't hang out on hardware sites and you go shopping for the best videocard within your budget..
Click to expand...

Reminds me of my early days..back when the Intel Pentium 133mhz was the shit back in early 1997. I bought a Creative Labs 3D Blaster that had some sorry ass 3D Labs chipset on it. If I would have known better I would have gotten the VoodooGraphics 1 board to start with. But I learned the hard way.

It's alot easier nowdays with the Internet having sites like this one and Anandtech. Back then, AOL was bigger than the internet which basicly sucked..hehe...memories.
 
Lowtax said:
If a person has an internet connection and does no research on computer component purchases, he deserves what he winds up with.
Click to expand...

While I understand your sentiment and kind of agree, that's harsh man.

My father in law, for example, buys good stuff, doesn't get the flashy expensive stuff, but doesn't get the cheap crap either.

He could research all he wants and he wouldn't understand half of the stuff.

Search for a review for a 5600, you'll find some bashing it, some swearing its the best midrange card out there. It all depends on what games/apps are benched by who and what driver set, etc...

The only way to really know what you're getting is to stay in this tech soap opera constantly, taking notes on who gets what score with what program with what driver vs what score with what program with what driver and coming to a reasonable conclusion.

For every site that bashes Nvidia for cheating (or optimizing, whatever) with lower visual quality but higher performance numbers, there are two claiming a performance win, never once mentioning the 9600 looks much better.

The entire industry has this problem with smoke and mirrors lately and its making me damn sick.
 
"It is said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

This would fall under that catergory. Normally these products are aimed at lowend/mid-range oem/online channels. This is not a new issue and has plagued the 3d industry since it inception. Voodoo2 CE anyone? S3 Virge? The person ordering knows enough to look online, enough to look for a 9800, but not quite enough to know that a 9800se is a 4 pipeline version normally with limited bandwidth.
 
Back on topic :p

The Radeon 9550 is faster than the 9600SE, but slower than the 9600NP. It's now the card of choice when I'm building non-gaming systems for clients (if the budget allows it, of course). I'd say it's pretty good for the very casual gamer.
 
I agree that vid cards (and puter hardware as a whole) is not ment to be intuitive..

I just ordered a new 9800 pro (should get it today from newegg)... And I'd say I spent a good 4-6 hours reading up to figure out what the differences were between the se, pro and xt cards.. and how nvidia cards compare to ati... and what gives the best bang for the buck.

Then the real capper, looking for the cheapest price, I noticed that not all 9800 pro's have the same specs, some of the cheaper cards had slower clock speeds (which they generally dont tell you in the specs)
 
ameoba said:
I don't change my own oil. They don't install their own RAM.

what's the dif?
Click to expand...

This is a good point...
Except that it actually takes more time and effort to unplug all the components and bring the puter into a store, than it would to just plug in a stick of ram.
 
eldiet said:
This is a good point...
Except that it actually takes more time and effort to unplug all the components and bring the puter into a store, than it would to just plug in a stick of ram.
Click to expand...
it would take me longer to drive to a lube place than just to change my own oil. heh.

This is why I do most of my work on site, its easier on the customers and there are occasions where the problem just doesn't manifest itself outside of those exact circumstances.
 
I totally don't agree that people who dont do the research deserve to get the shaft. It doesnt work that way and ATI has done a lot to go above and beyond recently in confusing the consumer. Yeah the SE and stuff, yeah its misleading, if it doesnt mod it's the "shitty edition" more than anything else. Thats not what gets me though. This newest thing with all the gay 9800 pro's out.

We'll say I have a friend named Bob who likes to game but doesnt know much about comps. He is over and he is intrigued by the graphics coming out of my rig with a 9800 pro. He sees my water setup and prometia and is a little curious what the hell the shit is so I fill in him. He comes away from this feeling like hey this guy knows his shit. While not wanting a prommie etc, he also certainly sees the power of PCs over XBox etc and a few months down the road he wants a gaming card, goes to the store and for his first gaming rig picks up a 9800pro Hacked Edition. This to me is too far. He figured if a 9800 pro is good enough for prommie having uber-geek its good enough for me. Consumers should not have to know what a 256 bit bus is to get a good card. In fact, if they did do some research but we'rent computer geeks they would even see stellar reviews for "9800pros" and not know they were getting a card very reminescent of the old 9500 pro.

I like the mechanic examples, yeah hardworking single moms should be ripped off because they don't know what a catalytic converter is. I dont think so. This si disgusting and way to far. Yeah I guess google would reveal that 8500>9200 and that 9500pro>9550 but that has been that way all along and while not exactly optimal, this new move is undefendable.
 
0ldman said:
it would take me longer to drive to a lube place than just to change my own oil. heh.

This is why I do most of my work on site, its easier on the customers and there are occasions where the problem just doesn't manifest itself outside of those exact circumstances.
Click to expand...
To me that's not a very good analogy especially when we talk about installing ram. Changeing oil requires special tools, some kind of catch pan, some way to lift front end (except trucks) and then some way to dispose of the used oil. Ram simply pops in the slot and either works or doesn't.
 
well if we're going to really discuss the analogy..

I'd compare installing ram to replacing an air filter in a car (or a headlight)
 
Of course, if you look at the way Intel & AMD are going to start labeling chips, it looks like the confusion in the computing world is only going to increase. As long as I can still get my specs & look at some benches, Inothing'll really change for me, but people like my dad are going to be lost.
 
Anyone who faults someone else because of what they dont know sounds a lot like an elitist.

Even though someone on this side of the fence thinks its "so easy" to install a stick of memory, someone on that side of the fence probably thinks using a backhoe to dig a 50ft swiming pool is something they do before most people eat breakfast.

Heres some "easy" things:

Installing an outlet.
Running new wire from box to outlet
Extracting a Tooth.
Changing 4 tires, while putting new tires on old wheels.
Changing oil.
Replacing brakes
Replacing a batroom toilet.
Running/soldering copper pipe.
Driving a rig to deliver goods.
Taking someone somewhere in a limo.
Grading lumber.

These are all things that are "easy" in their respective fields, yet most people wouldnt attempt. Because they lack the proper knowledge if something were to go wrong. Ever change the wax seal in a toilet? Its basic, if you have you probably think its easy. A doctor or mechanic may think "piss on that" Ever grade lumber? Replace a brake booster in a car? How about wheel cylinders? If you're a mechanic that does it every day, its not so bad.

The special tools in the computer field is knowledge. A lot like a doctory actually. All he may use for a surgury is a scalapal and some other things, does that mean its easy and anyone can do it? How is someone to know what kind of ram they need? Or size? Speed? How would they even know where a ram slot is?
 
the reason manufacturers try to confuse people is simple...they just want the "average consumer" to think that just because the box has a higher number on it, it must be better. why would they want this? so they can sell the crappy stuff to someone instead of throwing it in the dumpster.

as far as people deserving to get ripped off, yes and no.

no, because it sucks ass to get sold something that's sub-standard for your needs just because you don't know as much about that product as the person selling it to you.

yes, because although you shouldn't have to spend all your free time reading reviews, trying different things, etc., etc., this is not a perfect or "just" world, and you should at least recognize that, "hey, i don't know which of these products is actually better, maybe i should ask someone that knows about this stuff, but someone who also isn't going to be making a profit from me...that takes away all the incentive to be fed misinformation to force a purchase"
 
this all comes down to money. manufacturers only get so many parts per yield that meet the supposed pro-xt-se spec. now are they going to throw this silicon out. not likely. so I confuse and mislead you into buying something by sticking catchy numbers and phrases. I will fill the front of the box with bullshit and leave the average guy confused. In one simple step I am able to get rid of my garbage yields and make it look like I am giving you a deal. And anybody who says do your research... okay you have a family that are purchasing a new pc form dell. they see the options for a 8500 or a 9200 for only 50 dollars more. so they jump on the 9200 ooops that is the same card. now they don't have the time to research all this crap and unless they have somebody in the family who know pc's they are gonna get screwed. In the end you have to remember companies are in business to make money not friends. do I like the current marketing NO do I know why they do Yes. If you don't like something write a letter to the company and voice your opinion. saying it here is just preaching to the choir.
 
ameoba said:
Of course, if you look at the way Intel & AMD are going to start labeling chips, it looks like the confusion in the computing world is only going to increase. As long as I can still get my specs & look at some benches, Inothing'll really change for me, but people like my dad are going to be lost.
Click to expand...

Bad analogy because for instance though AMD is phasing out the FX51 they dont go and call something else that. If AMD and Intel call there next chip X10K-64, it sure as hell is confusing but can't raelly be considered a rip-off. We expect the bus, clockrate, and cache to be the same on the X-10K-64 a year from now. Process size, as well as whether it was once a much larger cache'd chip (larger die) that has been castrated, only matters to the overclockers but things that are considered the basic statistics that make a chip perform the way it does should remain the same through the product titles life.

Hm... sorry. Maybe this is my interpretation of the thread. I am mad at peole being misled and ripped off. It doesnt bother me that average joe gets confused but this is beyond the intentional dizzying of joe with bigger numbers. The goal doesnt seem to have bigger numbers uneducatedly turned into performance ratings but instead to even maybe get someone to buy a product when in reality it is something else. Hell they used SE for half pipes! If they went with ultra edition at least it would be what they've been doing all along and a google search would have the skinny on the actual card you'd be purchasing.
 
9550 is a lowerclocked 9600 (SE I think), it disgraces the 9500 name. Atleast with a real 9500 you could possibly mod it, the 9550 is just plain slow. :rolleyes:
 
trudeak said:
And anybody who says do your research... okay you have a family that are purchasing a new pc form dell. they see the options for a 8500 or a 9200 for only 50 dollars more. so they jump on the 9200 ooops that is the same card. now they don't have the time to research all this crap and unless they have somebody in the family who know pc's they are gonna get screwed. In the end you have to remember companies are in business to make money not friends. do I like the current marketing NO do I know why they do Yes.
Click to expand...

trudeak- I think you unknowingly made another point for me. Not anything that refutes your own points so don't read it like that. Guess what bud, the 9200 is the same as the 9000 (an already budgetted version of the 8500) only with 8x AGP or something like that. The 8500 was renamed the 9100 to help clear up the confusion that the 9000pro was better becuase it's not. Then a barely modified 9000 reissue was named the 9200pro. Completely blowing that move away. Getting confused yet? ;) Probably didnt need to get rid of the more expensive R200 cores at that point to care anymore. Point is no, it's not the same card as the 8500. The 8500, err 9100, is in fact better. It has all the same features with more oomph. We have hobbyists making these mistakes and for the love of our fellow man/woman we can't give them more leeway. Again my biggest problem is not what I outlined in the preceding paragraph because at least the 9200pro is a 9200pro... always... and if not it's an SE or a non-pro... something. Can you tell I dont like the 128 bit "9800Pro's" yet :D

Maybe I should make my voice heard to the company, but I dont feel Im preaching to the choir. I dont want people to buy these things.
 
an informed consumer is abd for business. That about sums it up
 
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