Why bother with AGP?

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Jakalwarrior

2[H]4U
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Aug 6, 2005
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I know AGP is still fast enough and the fastest cards probably wouldnt be any slower if they were made for it BUT when its cheaper to buy a new motherboard and video card than buy an AGP card, why bother?
 
For a Socket A system I understand the feeling. You'd have to get a new proc, possibly memory, board AND a vid card.

I just updated a NForce 3, Skt 939 system to a NF4 PCI-E. It was justifiable, I got a nice board for cheap from a co-worker and ax1800xt from the bay for 200 bucks. Total of 240. 240 bucks wouldn't have gotten me a equally speedy card, so I made the jump. Transferred RAM and Proc over and life was good.
 
Lock this thread NOW.

but to comment... it's impossible to have a dual card setup (CF/SLI) and I suspect the newer cards, paired with a conroe, ARE using all that PCIe 8x bandwidth.

Other than that, yeah, I agree with you.
 
Put yourself in my shoes:

I'm a socket 478 right now. AGP. In order to upgrade, I'd, bare min. need:
MoBo
RAM
CPU
Video
Possibly HDDs (depending on if MoBo of choice has PATA or not)
Possibly PSU (mine wouldn't cut it most likely)

So, a new X1950Pro will cost about $250ish. Or I could jump ship and spend $100ish on mobo, $150ish on CPU, $200ish on RAM, $450 on new video, $100 on HDDs, $100 on PSU.

$250 versus $1100. That's a pretty much sealed and done deal. And there's A LOT of people in my shoes. I think if more companies would support AGP, the people would buy it.
 
What about guys with pentium 4 that runs 800fsb 3.2ghz - 4.0ghz on a AGP system? It should die when the processor doesn't have enough fps power to push the video cards....
 
Decibel said:
Why accept forced obsolescence?
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Folks should not take this the wrong way, but all of this boils down to poor system planning and not being knoledgable about what your options are now and on the horizon.

I was building a system 1.5 years ago and wanted to keep the AGP Card I had at the time with an Eye toward the Future, so I researched and purchased the ASROCK with both Slots. Now I have a PCIe Graphics card. Good for me, I was looking toward the future.

PCIe Has been arround for a while now and you could have speced a system for yourself with PCIe in mind too.

There are ALWAYS options. The problem is that most people dont take the time to consider not only what they want now, but what they will possibly want in a year or two.


How many people are angry they can't get a modern chip for their 387 co-processor socket?
 
I was wondering this too. I have a socket 939 cpu and ddr400 ram but an AGP mobo. I can get an AGP 7600GT for $160 but I can get a PCI mobo and a 7600GT for probably around $180
 
yup, my p4 3.6 is just fine, ill wait till sapphire comes out with the agp 512 X1950 pro
 
Eulogy said:
$250 versus $1100. That's a pretty much sealed and done deal. And there's A LOT of people in my shoes.
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I am. And as far as planning goes, ~2 yeas ago (when I built my system) PCIe would not be a reality for another six or so months.
I have, however, learned from this. Right now, with the x1950pro agp available, if you have a decent agp system, I cannot see why you would not wait another six or so months and see what shakes out with DX10 and the refreshed 8800 and R600, and upgrade at that point.
 
I guess all this depends on ones needs.

A $450 video benchmarks about twice as fast as a $150 video. (Recalling the numbers from lst week's excursion into not buying a video card.)

For a lot of uses perhaps not games the onboard video is fast enough. ($150 video is perhaps 5 times as fast as on board.)

A reasonble upgrade computer (using old case, power supply, mouse ...) is only $450 - Motherboard & video $75, CPU $180, Memory $200,

One can add faster video after the fact.

I like PCIe but ...
 
Jakalwarrior said:
I know AGP is still fast enough and the fastest cards probably wouldnt be any slower if they were made for it BUT when its cheaper to buy a new motherboard and video card than buy an AGP card, why bother?
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Because its not just a motherboard and video card, its a motherboard, processor, video card, and probably memory you have to update, and thats around $500 for something decent.

So to those of us who dont want or cant spend enough for everything, AGP is going to be the way to go for a while yet.
 
Read this:

I have a S754 system with a single core Venice 3400+ (2.4GHz/512KB) and I had 1GB of DDR400 (single channel) and an X850XT overclocked and it played all my games (Q4/D3/Fear/HL2) at my LCD's native (1280x1024) and at least 2x AA.

Had I not got bitten by cheap-and-fun overclocking Opteron I would've kept gaming on that system. I took out the X850XT and sold it for $180 and bought a $20 GeForce 6200.


The point of the story is AGP is JUST FINE for today's needs. In some cases it's really nice to have 1.5GB-2GB of RAM just to help with large textures and level loading (i.e. FEAR, it wasn't silky smooth till I upgraded to 1.5GB from 1GB)
 
I just came from a 478/AGP system.

I used the same PSU, RAM, and HDD's.

Just last week, I bought a 939 3000+, Biostar tforce mobo, and 7800GT CO for $240 shipped, used. I didn't want to have to buy RAM, since prices are absurd right now. Especially considering I want to move UP in RAM, 2 gigs would be all that I would buy.

Buy used, you can upgrade to PCI-e on the cheap. my new rig in my sig is worlds faster than my old:

3.0E w/ HT @ stock (too hot)
6800nu w/ unlocked pipes and OCed
Abit AI7

My old rig probably put out more PPD in F@H because of two instances running, but this chip OCed is much quicker in everything else. You can see I was in the same shoes as a LOT of people. 939 was just about the only feasable upgrade because of me needing to still use DDR. Can finally play DoD:S maxed out!

In another couple years when I'm less broke, I'll be able to buy the most current socket and the latest RAM. But that's a ways off, and right now I can play most games that I actually *want* to play! DOD:S!!!!! <3

:)

EDIT: Don't forget, you can still sell all your old gear to help pay for the upgrade. Ballpark for my old mobo, chip and video card... $120-$150ish? So how much out of pocket was the upgrade? If I'd had more money, I'd definitely gone dual core, but they were quite a bit more than what I wanted to spend. I'm pleasantly surprised with this little chip anyway. Half the temperature.
 
Jakalwarrior said:
I know AGP is still fast enough and the fastest cards probably wouldnt be any slower if they were made for it BUT when its cheaper to buy a new motherboard and video card than buy an AGP card, why bother?
Click to expand...

You’re making a lot of assumptions here, primarily that everyone looking at an AGP Videocard is in a situation where they could just drop in a new motherboard and videocard into their existing setup. You’re assuming they wouldn’t also have to upgrade things such as their Ram, CPU, Powersupply, etc. When you factor in even just one of those additional things your price comparison begins to fall apart.

So yes, if you happen to have a system where basically every single component could swap over to a new PCI-E motherboard, then maybe that’s the route you should take. For the majority of us however, going to PCIE would be an investment that would easily surpass the cost of something like an x1950 Pro AGP.

I posted this in another thread but I’ll post it here also:

My reasons for not going with a full PCI-E setup is that I’d have to spend too much money replacing stuff I already have that is still good.

I have 2 PCI soundcards that would have to be replaced by at the very minimum a $$$ X-Fi Elite-Pro to get what I get from the two cards combined. The X-Fi would still take a PCI slot on the new board.

I have a PCI SCSI card for my 15k RPM SCSI boot drive. I’d have to replace it with at least a new raptor to get similar performance, but I’d rather just keep the scsi drive.

I have a PCI PhysX card that I either wouldn’t be able to use in a new rig or I’d have to buy a PCI-E version when they come out. I want to keep using this at least until I can see what it can do in ut2007.

I’d have to guy 2 gigs of DDR2 even though my 2 gigs of DDR still work fine

I’d probably have to buy a new PSU, as even though my powersupply is 24+8 pin (EPS12V spec for the xeons which seems to have evolved into the current 24+8 spec), It only has 2 12v rails.

That’s a lot of money into stuff I’d have to replace and that’s not even talking about the big $$$ items like CPU, GPU, and ideally something better than a $50 bargain motherboard. I guess if I was still stuck with a single core/processor box I might be in a bit more of a hurry to do a full upgrade.
 
I plan on getting a new agp card than upgrading my whole system. ati 1950agp card. I have a athlonxp mobile at 2.6Ghz with 2GB ram, HISx800pro256mb. Upgrading the whole system would cost a fortune i don't have. :)

I would save up for a whole new system if it was extremely slow but it runs fast for everything. The games run good right now but i want more bells and whistles ;).
 
TheBluePill said:
to the OP, You have the same ASROCK board I have, Why are you complaining? :confused:
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Because I also have a Neo2 which I have no idea what to do with since any decent video card for it costs way too much.

"they have an old P4 or AMD setup and would need cpu + mobo"
There is stuff like this. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2530051&CatId=1619
For a little over 100 bucks they can get a 939 system, use their same ram and the rest. Crappy motherboard in that one I know but still. Anyway, I wasn't trying to start a flame war and sofar it isn't one except for a few people coming close to attacking me. I was wondering at the logic behind it. What I was missing. One of those things where you go wth? and hope for an answer that makes you go Oh!
 
Well, I'm kind of broke and still on my Socket A board. No one had even thought of PCI-E when I was putting this system together. If I want to upgrade, then I would have to buy a new mobo, CPU, RAM and video card. I don't have that kind of money at the moment, but I did have $90 for a new AGP Geforce 6600. Yeah, it's old and not that fast, but I can only get so far with an AthlonXP 2000+, so it's not worth it to buy anything fasater.

My next upgrade will be to an all new PCI-E system, though. Anyone that buys an AGP mobo now is just nuts.
 
Jakalwarrior said:
I know AGP is still fast enough and the fastest cards probably wouldnt be any slower if they were made for it BUT when its cheaper to buy a new motherboard and video card than buy an AGP card, why bother?
Click to expand...
Everyone else's needs maybe not be the same as your needs. Did ya think of that?
 
Jakalwarrior said:
I know AGP is still fast enough and the fastest cards probably wouldnt be any slower if they were made for it BUT when its cheaper to buy a new motherboard and video card than buy an AGP card, why bother?
Click to expand...
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yup, that pretty much sums it up
 
Eulogy said:
Put yourself in my shoes:

I'm a socket 478 right now. AGP. In order to upgrade, I'd, bare min. need:
MoBo
RAM
CPU
Video
Possibly HDDs (depending on if MoBo of choice has PATA or not)
Possibly PSU (mine wouldn't cut it most likely)

So, a new X1950Pro will cost about $250ish. Or I could jump ship and spend $100ish on mobo, $150ish on CPU, $200ish on RAM, $450 on new video, $100 on HDDs, $100 on PSU.

$250 versus $1100. That's a pretty much sealed and done deal. And there's A LOT of people in my shoes. I think if more companies would support AGP, the people would buy it.
Click to expand...

No, you'd only need a 939 PCI-E board ($50) and A64 3200+ ($50). Then get a $150 7900GS. You don't need a new PSU or ram.

Bingo, you have a new faster system than 478 + x1950pro for the same money.
 
In order for me to go PCI-E I would need a new mobo, processor, possibly ram, and a video card. The 6600GT I have runs every game out so I'm good for now.
 
puppetzz said:
I was wondering this too. I have a socket 939 cpu and ddr400 ram but an AGP mobo. I can get an AGP 7600GT for $160 but I can get a PCI mobo and a 7600GT for probably around $180
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In that case, I'd go PCI-E. AGP cards are commanding a price premium these days as more fabs switch to PCI-E parts.

If you're in a hole (like the guy who'd basically need a new computer to get PCI-E) then I'd save for an entirely new system, and use incremental upgrades to keep the old rig going. If I were like you puppetzz, I'd make the jump to PCI-E now.
 
Varmint said:
No, you'd only need a 939 PCI-E board ($50) and A64 3200+ ($50). Then get a $150 7900GS. You don't need a new PSU or ram.

Bingo, you have a new faster system than 478 + x1950pro for the same money.
Click to expand...

Not only that, but the s478 stuff is still worth $40-50 for the motherboard and $40-50 for the CPU if you sold it. I know I'm looking for a good s478 board and would pay someone $40 for it :). I think if you're looking to do an AGP upgrade, you can do a nice sidestep performance wise and keeping a lot of your same parts and move to PCIe without too much trouble or cost.
 
Varmint said:
No, you'd only need a 939 PCI-E board ($50) and A64 3200+ ($50). Then get a $150 7900GS. You don't need a new PSU or ram.

Bingo, you have a new faster system than 478 + x1950pro for the same money.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is upgrade to a nearly obsolete standard in order to meet another standard. Riiiight. It makes sense if you go to AM2 or C2D, but going to 939 or before just seems like defeating your own argument for staying up-to-date!
 
PCIE allows for a larger bus, not everyone is using 15 inch monitors anymore... people are moving on to larger high res displays. Also with the newer games putting larger strains on graphics cards the only way to go is up. The computer industry has always been this way and will continue to be a race to the top. If you're broke, get a job. If you're tired of having to upgrade all the time, get a game console. My system is able to play the newest games with med-high settings on a 17' display fine with an AGP card so I don't see why so many of you are complaining.
 
jordan172005 said:
In order for me to go PCI-E I would need a new mobo, processor, possibly ram, and a video card. The 6600GT I have runs every game out so I'm good for now.
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To go 939 you'd need a mobo, processor, and video card. You could use your RAM, and if your PSU has a 20+4 power connector, you're golden. Don't forget you can sell off your old mobo, chip, and video card.

Check my post above to see how I went 478->939.

Aelfgeft said:
So what you're saying is upgrade to a nearly obsolete standard in order to meet another standard. Riiiight. It makes sense if you go to AM2 or C2D, but going to 939 or before just seems like defeating your own argument for staying up-to-date!
Click to expand...

You make a VERY valid point. However, look how long you've been with 478/754, whatever. For those of us that go a long time between upgrades, upgrading to 939 is NOT that senseless. It's not perfect, but it's cheaper and can easily last a couple more years. Especially considering how cheap used 939 chips are selling for now that 939 is "obsolete" and C2D is mopping the floor. Obsolete is in quotes but "obsolete" shouldn't define something that can play DoD:S on max settings and get a 33% OC at stock voltage.

I went with my 478/AGP rig for several years. It played what I played just fine, until I met DoD:S. To go to 939, it only cost me $240 for the rig in my sig (see my post above to see what I did)... That $240 is not including the old hardware that I can now sell off. I might be able to get $150 or so for it... which would be an awesome upgrade for $90. I'll have this rig for a long time too... Maybe by the time I'm ready to upgrade again I won't be so broke and I won't care which hardware I can still use from my old rig.

This is not aimed at those with special circumstanses like the guy above with multiple soundcards, and a SCSI card or so. However, you can get non-SLi motherboards with the same amount of PCI slots as the 478 rig you had.
 
I agree totally. I went from a shatty P4 in a pre-made white box that I got when I couldn't afford anything better, to my current 939 setup in my sig that can play all the newest games on medium settings, including certain games I am beta testing. I've got two gigs of ram, a hefty overclock, and an AGP slot. If I can just swap out the video card and keep everything else that has lasted me, why not?
 
Aelfgeft said:
So what you're saying is upgrade to a nearly obsolete standard in order to meet another standard. Riiiight. It makes sense if you go to AM2 or C2D, but going to 939 or before just seems like defeating your own argument for staying up-to-date!
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm saying. He has DDR ram - perfectly good - there is basically zero benefit to DDR2, so why buy AM2 and throw out your ram? Core 2 Duo is expensive. So for those on a budget, a motherboard swap to gain PCI-E makes the most sense, imo.

I don't care about keeping up with the Jones, I just want to play new games w/out spending more than I need to.
 
the fact that the X1950PRO AGP even exists kinda makes the argument for AGP. if there wasn't a market the card would never exist. i'm still waiting for the card to come out from vendors other than BestBuy before I decide, and I'm not against swapping motherboards., but I'd rather have the option than have no option.
 
people who complain about "having" to upgrade all the time should stop complaining

you dont "have" to upgrade anything you "choose" to upgrade for your own needs.


%99 of computer users could still runa PIII system with 512 of ram and integrated graphics for their tasks, but they would rather be able to brag they got some new technology.
 
Varmint said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. He has DDR ram - perfectly good - there is basically zero benefit to DDR2, so why buy AM2 and throw out your ram? Core 2 Duo is expensive. So for those on a budget, a motherboard swap to gain PCI-E makes the most sense, imo.

I don't care about keeping up with the Jones, I just want to play new games w/out spending more than I need to.
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Core 2 is expensive? $20 more for a 1.8 core 2 duo over an AMD lowest X2 i beleive (last i checked) and the power savings and better performance you get.... i dont think it is more expensive. grab the Asrock mobo for your ddr and agp card and the "core 2 duo is so expensive" is now a giant myth that people keep using as an excuse to tout AMD.
 
dej166 said:
the fact that the X1950PRO AGP even exists kinda makes the argument for AGP
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Really good point.

I have heard rumors of a 7950gt agp in the works as well...
 
MrGuvernment said:
Core 2 is expensive? $20 more for a 1.8 core 2 duo over an AMD lowest X2 i beleive (last i checked) and the power savings and better performance you get.... i dont think it is more expensive. grab the Asrock mobo for your ddr and agp card and the "core 2 duo is so expensive" is now a giant myth that people keep using as an excuse to tout AMD.
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He can build an Athlon 64 system for 100 bucks. Please show us a Core 2 system for $100. You're not getting the whole idea of a budget are you?
 
MrGuvernment said:
Core 2 is expensive? $20 more for a 1.8 core 2 duo over an AMD lowest X2 i beleive (last i checked) and the power savings and better performance you get.... i dont think it is more expensive. grab the Asrock mobo for your ddr and agp card and the "core 2 duo is so expensive" is now a giant myth that people keep using as an excuse to tout AMD.
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core2 requires ddr2...? that nulls the price argument. boards are more expensive for 775 too. you'd also have to buy ddr2...
 
MrGuvernment said:
Core 2 is expensive? $20 more for a 1.8 core 2 duo over an AMD lowest X2 i beleive (last i checked) and the power savings and better performance you get.... i dont think it is more expensive. grab the Asrock mobo for your ddr and agp card and the "core 2 duo is so expensive" is now a giant myth that people keep using as an excuse to tout AMD.
Click to expand...

It's expensive if you have to buy all the parts to accommodate Core 2 Duo... Going from a p4 on a 845-875 chipset means you have to buy new processor, motherboard, ram, video card, and maybe even power supply which would cost them at least $500 if not $1000 if you want something good... Although you can get little something back for your old components...

That asrock motherboard is a budget board and can't compare to 965p chipsets... It can't overclock and it performs significantly less than 965p chipsets or even AM2 systems with the same caliber... Sooner or later you still have to upgrade to a PCI-X components and ddr2 ram... In the end you still have to upgrade that mobo which is just a "buffer board" for people with AGP until they can afford something better...
 
Since I have socket 939 already I just need to make a mobo swap. Can anyone find me a cheap $60 mobo with a $120 PCI-E card to go along with it?
 
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