Why are video cards so expensive now?

[maleficarus]

The problem is this in a nut shell:

No new technology has been really released since T&L. So the only thing for NVIDIA and ATi to promote is faster core and memory speeds. Unfortunately faster memory (DDR3) is what is pushing these cards up into the realm of console prices. Also they add adding more memory like 512/768 etc.

The secondary problem to that is because of the faster speeds they are forced to use bigger and bulky cooling solutions that in turn take up any extra PCI slots you might have had. Now what I find truly amazing is guys on this forum are hoping that PPU's come on the video cards. Guess what will happen then? You think it is bad now, just wait if that happeneds...

This is primarily why I think this won't happen as the pricing would get to the point of silly knowing that upgrading a video card once a year will be out of even the most hardcore PC geek reach. You remember the last time NVIDIA or ATi had something really new and exciting to offer? Last time I remember was the GF2 with its transform and lighting technology. I personally never spend more then $250 on a video card. I usually go mid-grade knowing that I won't ever play in 1600x1200 resolution anyways as reading the font in games at that resolution requires nothing short of hawk vision. My biggest frustration with today’s cards is there cooling solutions. I think it is a joke to have to use a cooling solution that is the size of a small toaster eating up all your PCI slots.

Just my 2 cents....

 

[phide]

Card prices are predominantly driven by the BOM, yes. There are a slew of other factors, certainly, but for the most part, I believe we're pumping most of our dollars into the raw materials, production costs and R&D (no small sum is R&D).

There's a real lack of perspective from people who bitch about today's card prices, I think. From one perspective, factoring out the market for a moment, these cards are almost dirt cheap. These high-end cards are phenomenally powerful, and, as such, they should realistically be priced high.

 

[keldegar]

but of course, if Intel wants to compete like an equal to ATI and nVidia then Intel has to do a LOT of research and development and that would be a process that would take some time, yes there are making built-in 3d accelerators for their mobos but those IMHO are crap, they´re like a TNT or Geforce 1 tops !! I´m not saying they can´t do it, i´m just saying that IF they REALLY want to do it, well it´s gonna take some time.

The GMA950 is hardly like a Geforce 1. I'm not saying it's as good as other dedicated video solutions, but it is far from crap. I'd say it's more like a Nvidia Geforce 6200 Turbo cache.

Hell can you even play HL2 and WoW on a Geforce 1??

 

[phide]

Actually, the 6200 w/ TurboCache is orders of magnitude more capable than GMA 950 in many scenarios.

The GMA 950 is really the crux of Apple's Mac Mini and many other desktops.

 

[Dunamis]

LOL!
Well I'm over in New Zealand... and all the high end cards are in the $1000's, so its something I used to since our dollar totally sucks.

8800GTX = $1021.00
8800GTS = $718.00

That's why you pretty much never buy high-end cards over here. It's always 1 or two down....My X1950Pro cost $393...Thats pretty reasonable over here.

Hear ya bro..

NZ is not the best place to keep up wif technology, first it's in middle of nowhere so shipping cost is higher; secondly since the market is small, the economies of scale is always against us hence the bloated price, especially the higher end products.

Thank God for PriceSpy

 

[ButterFlyEffect78]

I still remember paying 399.99 for my Nvidia 4600ti the first week it came out. I honestly don't think prices haven't changed that much at all. But, I do believe no video card, no matter how powerful it is should be more then 500 bucks, and I would never dish out more then that for a video card, ever.

 

[SentToSchool]

I am not bitching about it. I am giving my opinion so people please...

I think a lot of you have misunderstood the original post.

Yes, you have choices but I am talking about the highend cards. You used to be able to get an amazingly fast card for $200-$300. Now, you have to shell out $1000 for the same freaking experience. And the worse part is, there doesn't seem to be an end for it.

I used to be able to get highend parts and enjoy the premium experience but now, I can't! There is absolutely no way that I can afford the top of the line video card set up. I have to wait for the weaker card in the $200 range 5 months after the highend card comes out. That's bullshit. Here I am, with a C2D build sitting here with a X300 SE card waiting for the 8600Ultra... for several months because my $250 can't get me anything DX10.

Not to mention as the cards get more powerful, you need a more expensive PSU(sometimes a second PSU dedicated to GPUs), more cooling, which leads to more money and more noise.

The GPU market has gone down the drain. It's great for Nvidia and ATi, yes but horrible for consumers and people who just want to game.

I really wish a 3rd competitor can join. It would push Nvidia and ATi to design better GPU cores, not just packing each generation with more transistors.

And people say that the PS3 is expensive. At least with the PS3, you can watch Blu-Ray, DVDs, and play games 5 years from now. No console war please.

 

[BlessedBullet]

I don't think 600 is too bad if it turns a regular computer into something comparable or better than a PS3 or 360.

What I do hate is all the indirect stuff that I have to pay for when upgrading for games. Specifically bigger cases and power supplies. So, a 600 dollar video card upgrade turns into a 1000. I thought hardware was supposed to get smaller and more efficient.

 

[JDAdams]

I bought a pair of X1900s last March for approx. £700 ($1365), along with the rest of my rig total outlay was ~£2000 ($3900) - I had no problem doing this, nor will I spending the same again (probably a bit more) to upgrade to a pair of X2800s and 4x4 (the Intel quad-core doesn't have enough upgrade potential for me, and V8 has no Crossfire support).

That kind of money once a year is a reasonable outlay for me, since I want the best graphics out of my games and I don't find it an excessive amount. If you're not too bothered - and let's face it, the 14xAA and 16xHQAF at 1600x1200 I'm playing at is really overkill - you don't need to spend that amount of cash. It's the high-end that carries the premium, step down a few rungs and you save buckets of cash.

 

[phide]

Yes, you have choices but I am talking about the highend cards. You used to be able to get an amazingly fast card for $200-$300. Now, you have to shell out $1000 for the same freaking experience. And the worse part is, there doesn't seem to be an end for it.

What single consumer-level card costs $1000? If you wish to "debate", then at least try to use reasonably accurate numbers. The absolute maximum price for a consumer-level, air-cooled card is currently around $650.

Define "amazingly fast". Has the entire scale shifted, or has just the pricing structure shifted? "Amazingly fast" today is much more difficult for a graphics card to achieve today than it was in years past, thus the higher BOM and higher MSRPs for these cards. The advancement of real-time graphics has not been linear -- it has been exponential, and thusly we might expect hardware prices to increase exponentially. $300 doesn't even cover the estimated BOM for the 8800 GTX, so don't be stupid about your expectations.

And people say that the PS3 is expensive. At least with the PS3, you can watch Blu-Ray, DVDs, and play games 5 years from now. No console war please.

Great. But the PS3 is not a computer. It's truly an apples to sewing needles comparison, and a mindless, blind comparison at that.

And yes, you are bitching. The distinction between sharing one's opinion and bitching is pretty easy to make, I think. I'm not rocket scientist, but I'd like to think that even I can make that distinction.

This "debate" shows up on doorsteps from time to time. Typically, the originators are just upset that they can't afford to play with the toys the rest of us work like hell to be able to afford. Hell, this is something of an inexpensive hobby compared to some, don't you think?

 

[coldpower27]

I don't think 600 is too bad if it turns a regular computer into something comparable or better than a PS3 or 360.

What I do hate is all the indirect stuff that I have to pay for when upgrading for games. Specifically bigger cases and power supplies. So, a 600 dollar video card upgrade turns into a 1000. I thought hardware was supposed to get smaller and more efficient.

It does if you want the same level of performance as before then the newer more up to date version would be less power hungry and hopefully take up less space.

You can't have the tri fecta these days anymore, it's either way faster, hotter and bigger. Or marginally faster, smaller and cooler, your choice.

 

[coldpower27]

I am not bitching about it. I am giving my opinion so people please...

I think a lot of you have misunderstood the original post.

Yes, you have choices but I am talking about the highend cards. You used to be able to get an amazingly fast card for $200-$300. Now, you have to shell out $1000 for the same freaking experience. And the worse part is, there doesn't seem to be an end for it.

I used to be able to get highend parts and enjoy the premium experience but now, I can't! There is absolutely no way that I can afford the top of the line video card set up. I have to wait for the weaker card in the $200 range 5 months after the highend card comes out. That's bullshit. Here I am, with a C2D build sitting here with a X300 SE card waiting for the 8600Ultra... for several months because my $250 can't get me anything DX10.

Not to mention as the cards get more powerful, you need a more expensive PSU(sometimes a second PSU dedicated to GPUs), more cooling, which leads to more money and more noise.

The GPU market has gone down the drain. It's great for Nvidia and ATi, yes but horrible for consumers and people who just want to game.

I really wish a 3rd competitor can join. It would push Nvidia and ATi to design better GPU cores, not just packing each generation with more transistors.

And people say that the PS3 is expensive. At least with the PS3, you can watch Blu-Ray, DVDs, and play games 5 years from now. No console war please.

You still can get some pretty good performance levels for $200-300USD territory, that's from the X1950 XT to 8800 GTS 320MB which offers quite a decent experience in relation to everything else.

Ah, I see where your coming from your not satisfied that $200-300USD won't get you the top of the line card like it did back in the year 2000, well the top of the line price has moved up not to mention the production and R&D costs as well. So it cannot be helped, your not actually asking Nvidia/ATi to eat into their profits to make you happy are you?

The top of the line experience has been extended because Nvidia and ATI want to address those consumers which CAN afford to drop 1200USD plus accessories for the top of the line experience. They also found out there are people out there who are willing and can pay those price so they are making products to fill those peoples needs.

They didn't forget about the consumers at the $200-300USD level, they still make products for that segment.

Do you need DirectX 10 right now? Because for $200USD that could buy you an X1950 Pro, or for a little more you can get the X1950 XT, or the 7900 GS and 7950 GT both of which are very capable cards for the exception of lacking DirectX 10, which isn't necessarily required yet. Even DirectX10 games that come out will only have them on as an after effect because the majority won't have DX10 hardware this year.

Additional power requirements cannot be helped as the amount of core logic each successive generation has is much higher then the last.

It's not unexpected as well that the prviledge of owning DirectX10 first falls with the flagship cards first and slowly makes it down to the mainstream, there is no game coming out that requires a DirectX 10 card to run yet, they have fallback modes this generation. Even 5 months after the 8800 GTX is released I don' t see very many DirectX10 games, and by this I mean games which use DirectX10 optionally.

 

[SentToSchool]

What single consumer-level card costs $1000? If you wish to "debate", then at least try to use reasonably accurate numbers. The absolute maximum price for a consumer-level, air-cooled card is currently around $650.

Define "amazingly fast". Has the entire scale shifted, or has just the pricing structure shifted? "Amazingly fast" today is much more difficult for a graphics card to achieve today than it was in years past, thus the higher BOM and higher MSRPs for these cards. The advancement of real-time graphics has not been linear -- it has been exponential, and thusly we might expect hardware prices to increase exponentially. $300 doesn't even cover the estimated BOM for the 8800 GTX, so don't be stupid about your expectations.


Great. But the PS3 is not a computer. It's truly an apples to sewing needles comparison, and a mindless, blind comparison at that.

And yes, you are bitching. The distinction between sharing one's opinion and bitching is pretty easy to make, I think. I'm not rocket scientist, but I'd like to think that even I can make that distinction.

This "debate" shows up on doorsteps from time to time. Typically, the originators are just upset that they can't afford to play with the toys the rest of us work like hell to be able to afford. Hell, this is something of an inexpensive hobby compared to some, don't you think?

1. I did NOT state any $1000 card but rather an SLI setup or Crossfire setup to play at high resolutions while a 9800Pro back in the days can handle anything at any setting.

2. Amazingly fast means the highest end. Was the 9800Pro the highest end card once? Yes, it was the fastest card in the world once and it was around $250.

3. $300 doesn't cover the BOM for an 8800GTX? Do you work for Nvidia? Any source?

4. I didn't mean to turn this into a console vs PC thing but aren't video cards designed for gaming like a console? We're not talking about PCs as a whole here so it's not comparing apples to sewing needles. You can pick up an Xbox 360 for $300 with Gears of War and spank every single PC game on the graphics level(for now).

5. How is this bitching? I stated my opinion of how the industry is going so what is wrong with it. You think people who protested the Vietnam war were bitching? You think every newspaper article is bitching? Because they all argue a point. You think saying that video cards are becoming more expensive by the day is bitching? Maybe you shouldn't ever talk or try to state a point because you're bitching.

6. You are not understanding the bigger picture here. This is a like a monopoly with ATi and Nvidia. It's not about hanging with the big boys or working hard to get highend computer parts. You work like hell to be able to afford an 8800GTX? Congratulations. What if you work like hell for several weeks, earn $600 and buys an 8800GTX? Sounds great right? Now what if you had a chance to buy it for only $300 and save the $300 for your girlfriend?( I doubt you have one).

I appreciate opinions from others as long as they are respectful.

 

[Hurin]

You used to be able to get an amazingly fast card for $200-$300. Now, you have to shell out $1000 for the same freaking experience.

. . .while a 9800Pro back in the days can handle anything at any setting.

These statements are nonsensical to me. Or, at least, they demonstrate a tremendous lack of perspective.

I just don't understand what possible value this has for the conversation. Is it not sound-poundingly obvious that the "experience" five years ago and the "experience" we get today are very different? Just compare a game like Company of Heroes or Oblivion to a game from the 9800 Pro era. . . like Quake 3.

Back then, most people considered 1024x768 as "high res" and only the uber-rigs chugged along at 1600x1200. AA was in its infancy and AA + AF were often not used at all because of the performance hit.

I just don't see how any reasonable person can look at Quake 3 and then look at CoH and say: "It's the exact same experience."

While I think market forces have more to do with the prices of video cards than some others I respect here, the fact of the matter is that video cards of today's era are just as complex (if not moreso) than CPUs and are now priced accordingly. . . and it's just downright silly to say that they aren't providing any more to us than their predecessors did four or five years ago.

 

[coldpower27]

1. I did NOT state any $1000 card but rather an SLI setup or Crossfire setup to play at high resolutions while a 9800Pro back in the days can handle anything at any setting.

2. Amazingly fast means the highest end. Was the 9800Pro the highest end card once? Yes, it was the fastest card in the world once and it was around $250.

3. $300 doesn't cover the BOM for an 8800GTX? Do you work for Nvidia? Any source?

4. I didn't mean to turn this into a console vs PC thing but aren't video cards designed for gaming like a console? We're not talking about PCs as a whole here so it's not comparing apples to sewing needles. You can pick up an Xbox 360 for $300 with Gears of War and spank every single PC game on the graphics level(for now).

5. How is this bitching? I stated my opinion of how the industry is going so what is wrong with it. You think people who protested the Vietnam war were bitching? You think every newspaper article is bitching? Because they all argue a point. You think saying that video cards are becoming more expensive by the day is bitching? Maybe you shouldn't ever talk or try to state a point because you're bitching.

6. You are not understanding the bigger picture here. This is a like a monopoly with ATi and Nvidia. It's not about hanging with the big boys or working hard to get highend computer parts. You work like hell to be able to afford an 8800GTX? Congratulations. What if you work like hell for several weeks, earn $600 and buys an 8800GTX? Sounds great right? Now what if you had a chance to buy it for only $300 and save the $300 for your girlfriend?( I doubt you have one).

I appreciate opinions from others as long as they are respectful.

You only need an SLI or Crossfire setup meaning 8800 GTS SLI or 8800 GTX SLI for 2560x1600 with AA and AF applied. You probably can get by with a Single 8800 GTX if you are limited to 1920x1200 AA and AF. The top resolutions have extended upward, so it will take some time for video hardware to catch up on that front.

No, a 9800 Pro while good back in the day, couldn't handle everything at any setting, if you had a high end CRT and had resolutions greater then 1600x1200 like 17x13 or 19x14 then your sunk.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDM5LDQsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0

Unreal Tournament 2003 16x12 4XAA/8XAF 43.3 which isn't adequate since it is an FPS. Go up to 6XAA and your FPS dips into the 30's. Now imagine what would happen at the higher end resolutions that I listed, the 9800 Pro would be crushed. The only reason that they didn't test higher then 16x12 is that most video cards can't handle resolutions of that magnitude from that period in time.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/content/32/8/

This shows that the performance of the Radeon 9800 Pro is 32 FPS in UT2k3 in 1600x1200 4XAA/8XAF not exactly the most fluid experience considering it's a shooter.

The price you quoted of 250USD didn't come in till well after the 9800 Pro wasn't the flagship anymore, by then it was supplanted by the Radeon 9800 XT. Remember the introduction price of the Radeon 9800 Pro is 399USD not 250USD like your quoting that came much later in the lifetime of the card.

It's the same situation today with the Radeon X1950 XT for 250USD or so, and the Radeon X1950 XTX for around 400USD.

250USD hasn't been the top of the line card price for awhile now, that ended probably back in the TNT2/Geforce 1 days.

No there is unlikely to be any direct source as Nvidia doesn't exactly publish exactly how much it takes to makes its products for anyone to look at. Though for something like the 7800 GTX, the numbers quoted were on the order of 350USD, and that card introduced at 599USD.

Video cards are designed for gamers and for professional graphic artists. They give computers the ability to play games at higher graphic details, in addition to the other abilities computers already possess. A console is more limited in the functions it can do, the modern versions are designed as an entertainment hub. The PC is far more then just an entertainment center for some people.

Two players isn't a monopoly, more like an oligopoly.

As explained beforehand Nvidia and ATI cannot sell what they are making now for only 300USD and have any hope of turning out a profit. Compare the Geforce 2 GTS to a Geforce 8800 GTX and you see why, the GPU core is more then 4 times larger, the number of memory chips on board is larger, the PCB is far more complex to handle the additional power requirements and the wider memory interface. The list goes on and on.

 

[hfc]

It's funny, all this talk of market forces and cost keeps reminding me of the good old United States, fiat money and the Federal Reserve.

Now, considering most things have more than doubled in price over the last decade, videocards are doing quite well at keeping the prices 'respectable'. This has to be said of most hi-tech products, since the fast evolution of such products normally would negate monetary inflation.

Most people can't afford these 'Big Boy' toys because the purchasing power of their money is so diminished that they have to do without.

Let's face it, in the real world of market forces without currency manipulation and depreciation by private banks aka the Federal Reserve, prices would be coming down, not going up. Odd concept, isn't it?

For all those interested in the US Constitution, look here http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531&q=federal+reserve

 

[phide]

I did NOT state any $1000 card but rather an SLI setup or Crossfire setup to play at high resolutions while a 9800Pro back in the days can handle anything at any setting.

Nonsense. The 9800 Pro was fast, surely, but it certainly wasn't overkill for the time. It was still incapable of satisfying many owners (myself included). The 8800 GTX is actually the nearest to an overkill product in quite some time, though its performance will soon be inadequate for many.

And yes, you used the term "card" when you mentioned the $200-300 price point, so one would naturally assume that your $1000 reference would also apply to a single card. Not a poor assumption.

$300 doesn't cover the BOM for an 8800GTX? Do you work for Nvidia? Any source?

Please note that I used the word "estimated" quite specifically. The Inquirer estimated the BOM at around $325, if I recall, though that was probably the estimate by an outside source, as that's typical for the Inq. I'll try to dig up the link for you when I have a moment, as the search terms are somewhat Google-flooded due to the BOM/resistor issue.

You can pick up an Xbox 360 for $300 with Gears of War and spank every single PC game on the graphics level(for now).

You're right. However, high-end video cards are a good deal more powerful than console GPUs, and video cards have other components that increase their cost (VRAM being one of the most significant). Consoles are typically sold at a loss, as well, while high-end cards typically enjoy "good" profit margins, or so we would assume from what we know about respective BOMs. Also, the number of high-end graphics card units sold is far less than the number of units sold to Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. Thusly, profits on high-end cards must be achieved by means of relatively high product prices, as the quantity sold is relatively low. In addition, Microsoft and Sony only purchase or license GPU designs (currently). Their manufacturing is either internal or independently outsourced, reducing cost to the respective companies. This is rudimentary economics.

You think people who protested the Vietnam war were bitching?

Depends entirely on the wording and how the wording reflects the "protester's" emotion toward the subject. In this case, the term "bitching" can be applied quite fittingly, I believe. But yes, some Vietnam protesters were quite bitchy, I assure you.

This is a like a monopoly with ATi and Nvidia.

I believe what you intended to say was "oligopoly". A monopoly is indicative of one supplier, while an oligopoly refers to a market in which there are a small handful of suppliers (a non-ideal situation for consumers).

What if you work like hell for several weeks, earn $600 and buys an 8800GTX? Sounds great right? Now what if you had a chance to buy it for only $300 and save the $300 for your girlfriend?( I doubt you have one).

Firstly, personal attacks are always appreciated, especially when they're inserted in context with such precision, grace and intelligence as you have done here. Kudos.

Secondly, do you expect NVIDIA's AIB partners to sell 8800 GTXs for cost or less than cost?

 

[phatbx133]

I remember last time i spend expensive video card ever i bought was 3dfx voodoo with 8 or 12mb and bunch free full versions games for about 299 i think i like the way video card come with few games back old day

NOW expensive video card with NO Games at all.(rare few such GRAW, what else? not much.

ALL owner 88xx should get free games with full blown directx 10 all the way right out of box.

SLI still not working right out of box and why need SLI first place if they cant fix SLI driver stable right off the bat.

Then cut down SLI no more, will give boost lower price.

my2cent

phatbx133

 

[Scream And Fly]

Haven't they always been expensive? I remember paying $500 for a Voodoo 5500 when it came out.

You got ripped off. At that time I was working for 3dfx, and the launch price for the Voodoo 5 5500 AGP was $299.99.

 

[Stereophile]

People talk about free markets, but remember that markets work ideally only so long as they are competitive. The current performance videocard market is a duopoly. Without going into a lecture on economics and game theory, the consumer is at a disadvantage. ATi and Nvidia are making "above normal profits" by maximizing the barriers to entry and effective price leadership.

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some diversion to raise prices."

-Adam Smith

 

[LazyBum]

I think it's pretty damn expensive, but I still paid the price for an 8800GTX, and don't regret it a bit I can't remember the last time I bought a PC component and didn't overclock it because it was fast enough out of the box. If you want to be an early adopter who is riding the bleeding edge of technology, it will be expensive, no question about it, but every hobby is like that.
I think the LCD adoption has really pushed video card upgrades, it certainly has for me. With a CRT you could always downscale to make the card last a little longer between upgrades. Downscaling on an LCD looks like hammered dogshit, if i want to watch crappy graphics I will play PS2 on my HDTV

Are they expensive? Hell yeah, but compare what a $500 card now will do compared to a $500 card two years ago. My 8800GTX can take a card from the 9800 era, whip its ass, screw its girlfriend, and kick its dog on the way out the door - with 2/3 of its RAM surfing pron and a beer in one hand. These cards are damn expensive to develop and make, so early adopters are gonna pay a good chunk of change - basic economics.

 

[Fuzzy Logik]

I think the entire hardware and software industry completely sucks and has always sucked.

Did you all forget that this is about making money off retards like you and I?

Geez...

What about vehicles, why not complain about vehicle cost, and gasoline?

I -refuse- to own a vehicle. I was born and raised in Baton Rouge, Louisiana all my life until I turned 24 and moved to Portland, Oregon. I had owned vehicles and basically sold my soul to keep them running.

Most general computer related jobs don't pay that much. I'm sorry but 11-13bucks an hour equates to less than 20k a year. That's standard PC Tech wages, and that really isn't enough to get by on int his economy.

I moved to a city with public transportation so I would never have to own a car again... How is that for a paradigm shift?

So when I see someone complain about the cost of hardware in today's market It surprises someone like myself because of how expensive everything else is.

Remember when IBM PCs cost 2 grand back int he 80s and they couldn't do shit?

Dude.. I didn't own a computer until 1999 when I built my own, my parents couldn't afford to buy one.

I mean... why not complain about a 1000 dollar CPU. It's top of the line, does it give astonishing performance over a less expensive version... not an extra 700 dollars worth.

Just like you drive a honda and the rich guy drives a jaguar.

It's still a car, cars travel, and a jag. doesn't go 100 mph faster than your honda... it just what? That's right... looks a lot cooler.

Don't be mad at the companies be mad at the condition of being human and feeling the necessity to be envious of others.

Think of it this way... the douche who can afford 2 800gtxs that didn't win it or earn it in a competition, probably still wishes he had something better.

This is what companies exploit.

 

[0ptional]

Without reading the rest of the thread, and only reading the title of it;

My answer is because people keep paying for them, if people didn't pay for the high end stuff, didn't buy it, it would fall in price until people did buy them and then they'd find a way to be able to sell something at that price range. PS3's are dropping in price in Japan and randomly around other places and other deals are being offered towards selling them, so I can only see that as a much larger version of the same effect happening. Sony hates the US though apparently because we aren't getting price drops.

 

[Painman]

I think it's pretty damn expensive, but I still paid the price for an 8800GTX, and don't regret it a bit I can't remember the last time I bought a PC component and didn't overclock it because it was fast enough out of the box.

I'm with ya, I also have an MCW60 and a small army of 'sinks stuck to mine and it's like WTF is the point of OC right now. Driving it @ 19*12 even.

When the card starts to slide down the curve a little, I know I got some headroom to explore.

 

[mlambert890]

This thread is surreal. ESPECIALLY since it is on [H]

People cheering a horrific bureacratic monstrosity like the EU fining business hundres of millions of Euros?? (yeah, b/c THAT wont get passed onto the consumer while the govt officials use the money for hookers and coke) People calling for the govt to step in because "video cards are a duopoly" People complaining that there has been "no change in 5 years but prices go up" People claiming the last advancement to GPUs was hardware T&L

I dont even have the energy to go into the inanity of most of these points. All I can say is, last I checked, a high end PC gaming rig was an EXTREME luxury. We arent talking about food and water here people. If you feel that Microsoft and NVidia and Intel and ATI are "raping you" and you are getting "nothing" in return, then STOP BUYING THE PRODUCTS. You arent chemically addicted and you dont need this crap to live. By your OWN admission, you derive nothing new from it. To keep paying money in that case would really be the definition of insanity.

We have such an entitlement society its amazing. Basically, what people are saying is "I WANT ALL THIS STUFF BUT I WANT IT CHEAPER B/C I CANT/WONT SPEND WHAT IT COSTS!!!" So lets not pretend there is no value in this gear, that there has been no advancement in the technology since 2002 and certainly, lets not hide behind complete BS debates about market economies and diminishing returns. The thread exists because people WANT these parts. If there were NO value in the parts, if hardware T&L was all thats changed since the GeForce 2, if games havent advanced since Quake 3, then people wouldnt be bitching and moaning and debating about the prices of an 8800GTX. Put all of that economic know how and passion to use and MAKE some big money and you wont have to care.

Sorry to sound like an ass, but there are plenty of things I want but cant afford. Yet I dont feel that we need the govt to mandate that everyone should be able to drive a Ferrari. Very immature attitude, to be honest.

 

[mlambert890]

Without reading the rest of the thread, and only reading the title of it;

My answer is because people keep paying for them, if people didn't pay for the high end stuff, didn't buy it, it would fall in price until people did buy them and then they'd find a way to be able to sell something at that price range. PS3's are dropping in price in Japan and randomly around other places and other deals are being offered towards selling them, so I can only see that as a much larger version of the same effect happening. Sony hates the US though apparently because we aren't getting price drops.

This is almost true, but you miss one important point. You just CANT MAKE a cheap Ferrari, PS3 or 8800GTX no matter what all of the arm chair conspiracy theorists want you to believe. So if there were no market to support these items, they *wouldnt exist*. If no one had money and the economy were truly dismal, people would be killing for food rather than playing video games.

People seem to think that somehow its possible to make a cutting edge 300M transistor 45nm advanced computing part for the price of a plastic widget. I guess they just cant fathom the BILLIONS it costs to make a chip fab to even crank that out and the THOUSANDS of PhDs making $100k+ per year you need to design it.

This is the same problem on car forums. People want the Ferrari, but are angry and frustrated that they cant afford it, so support groups form about how "its wrong" and "overpriced" and "not worth it" and "a waste" and how "no one needs it" and how "someone needs to do something about it damn it!". Its always the same bullshit. Its human nature.

 

[pfunkman]

Prices are high but pretty par for the course there has always been discussions like this every so often regarding all forms of computer components...Not that long ago it was RAM and still is IMO What your getting this generation with the G80 and eventually the R600 justifies the cost but 2 GB of quality RAM is still $250-$300 anymore that is fucking ridiculous and performance wise makes these next gen cards look like a steal. Pretty sad when you can get one of the best video cards on the market for about the same price as the industry standard amount of ram (8800GTS 320 VS. 2GB of ram).

But when its all said and done this shit comes and gos. who knows maybe the next batch of mobos to hit the market will be the new gouging monster.

 

[Hurin]

People talk about free markets, but remember that markets work ideally only so long as they are competitive. The current performance videocard market is a duopoly. Without going into a lecture on economics and game theory, the consumer is at a disadvantage. ATi and Nvidia are making "above normal profits" by maximizing the barriers to entry and effective price leadership.

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some diversion to raise prices."

-Adam Smith

Define "above normal."

Prove that ATi and nvidia are colluding in some way to keep out competitors or otherwise manipulate price (thus leading to "above normal" prices). I remember Matrox when they tried to compete. They sucked (though I owned several Matrox products because I liked their 2D performance). They're no longer competing.

Regardless, I'll worry more about such things when food and shelter are too expensive. . . not when bleeding-edge video cards intended only for the super-enthusiast are making a few people feel abused because they choose not to afford them.

 

[phide]

Yet I dont feel that we need the govt to mandate that everyone should be able to drive a Ferrari. Very immature attitude, to be honest.

Bingo. The attitude is "I can't afford it, ergo; it should be cheaper", "I can't afford it; ergo, it's not right" and "I can't afford it; ergo, these companies are greedy swine".

Ridiculously absurd.

 

[0ptional]

This is almost true, but you miss one important point. You just CANT MAKE a cheap Ferrari, PS3 or 8800GTX no matter what all of the arm chair conspiracy theorists want you to believe. So if there were no market to support these items, they *wouldnt exist*. If no one had money and the economy were truly dismal, people would be killing for food rather than playing video games.

People seem to think that somehow its possible to make a cutting edge 300M transistor 45nm advanced computing part for the price of a plastic widget. I guess they just cant fathom the BILLIONS it costs to make a chip fab to even crank that out and the THOUSANDS of PhDs making $100k+ per year you need to design it.

This is the same problem on car forums. People want the Ferrari, but are angry and frustrated that they cant afford it, so support groups form about how "its wrong" and "overpriced" and "not worth it" and "a waste" and how "no one needs it" and how "someone needs to do something about it damn it!". Its always the same bullshit. Its human nature.

Oh yeah I know that's the truth, but the Xbox 360 for example was initially sold at a loss, but the process got refined and over time it's become a product that earns money with every sold console. So initially it's difficult to create a product that can be dropped in price and still make the company money, so over time things get more refined and easier to make and prices drop or companies make more and are able in turn to drop the price to the consumer.

Of course I've been using consoles this whole time for examples and this is related to video cards, but in general it's just a market analysis.

 

[Painman]

lotsa stuff

I think you get it I may end up being wrong, but I predict a little cooldown in the GFX race for a while. We've reached a milestone of 1080P/WUXGA performance on the GPU side, but over on the display side we've got a lot of commoditization going on - cheap TN panels have breached the HD barrier. Crazy high res LCD tech is out there, but not catching on in any way with the mainstream market. I think new panel tech like SED/OLED/whatever will have to find a way to crash the cheap LCD party before GPU makers can really try to sell more megapixels than they already are. Maybe this would give process tech some time to catch up and get smaller/cheaper too.

 

[SentToSchool]

People talk about free markets, but remember that markets work ideally only so long as they are competitive. The current performance videocard market is a duopoly. Without going into a lecture on economics and game theory, the consumer is at a disadvantage. ATi and Nvidia are making "above normal profits" by maximizing the barriers to entry and effective price leadership.

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some diversion to raise prices."

-Adam Smith

There you go.

 

[Stereophile]

Define "above normal."

Prove that ATi and nvidia are colluding in some way to keep out competitors or otherwise manipulate price (thus leading to "above normal" prices).

I said above normal profits, not prices. They are making "above normal" profits in an economic sense. More than they would if there was more than 2 companies selling performance videocards. They realize this and want to keep other companies from getting into the market. They accomplish this with patents, lobby the government for trade protection, spend tons of money on advertising, and snatch up as many of the limited pool of people educated, talented, and experienced enough to design the next big thing.

They don't need to collude to avoid competitive pricing. I said price leadership not price fixing. The usual checks and balances in a perfectly competitive market go out the window with a duopoly or oligopoly market. They are not competing with each other on price. In fact, if either company were to lower prices, they would both end up losing money.

Their marginal revenue curves have gaps below their demand curves. The gap creates a cost cushion. This means they don't reduce output when costs rise or increase output when costs go down. The gap in the marginal revenue curve allows them to maintain a given price for longer. The prices stick.

Both of these companies do not want to compete against each other on price. In pure competition, there is pressure to maintain an equilibrium price. In a duopoly, it works differently. If Nvidia found some way to reduce its costs and therefore passed that savings on to the consumer, supply and demand suggests they would sell more cards since they lowered the price. The problem is there are not infinite suppliers of performance videocards.

In normal markets, one company cannot dictate the market price. But if Nvidia lowers its price, and increases sales, those sales are at the direct expense of ATi. Now ATi will be forced to lower its prices too, and then industry profits for both go down. The bottom line is they are not "fighting" to give you the best videocard for the least money possible. They both have very strong economic reasons to maintain the status quo.

 

[trinibwoy]

Heh, I see someone is fresh out of econ class. Too bad trying to apply sterile theoretical models to the real world isn't the point of economics. It's a framework to help you understand how markets work by using very simplified models of the world. Above average profits is a very common phenomenon in real world capital markets so don't see your point there.

An "average profit" is actually a zero profit which occurs in the model where competitors produce homogenous goods and have no advantages in cost of materials, patents or manufacturing technology. There are a few industries like this but the GPU market certainly isn't one of them.

We're not talking bread or milk here. GPU's are a luxury good and like all luxury goods have pretty high price elasticity. That's the point of segmentation by price point - nobody is forcing you to buy the most expensive version and you're not entitled to it either. Buy whatever falls into your price range and be happy that your new card is probably twice as fast as the last generation card for the same price.

 

[trinibwoy]

In normal markets, one company cannot dictate the market price. But if Nvidia lowers its price, and increases sales, those sales are at the direct expense of ATi. Now ATi will be forced to lower its prices too, and then industry profits for both go down. The bottom line is they are not "fighting" to give you the best videocard for the least money possible. They both have very strong economic reasons to maintain the status quo.

What you just described is called the Bertrand trap which firms try to avoid at all costs. The outcome is no change in sales, lower prices and lower revenue. There is absolutely zero incentive for a firm to be a first mover - it will NOT result in higher sales in the end.

 

[Axion22]

It seems like a better investment now than has been. I bought a GF Ti4600 for $400, and it was having trouble running current games in less than two years.

It was immediate succeeded by the GF 5 series, which sucked. I can't remember, was the rush that went, essentially, from GF4x to GF6x due in part to competition from ATi? What Radeon came out then?

Now, my 6800GS a year old and only outdated by the fact that it's not DX10. There isn't a ton of DX10 games coming out any time soon.

 

[Freddo]

The prices of graphic cards hasn't changed at all here in Sweden. The high-end cards now cost about the same as high-end cards back in 2000.

However, the US dollar lost about a third of it's value since Bush stepped in as a President. At least compared to the swedish currency. Might be a good explaination if things gotten more expensive in the US.

But then again, video games are still much cheaper in the US than here, even with shipping included. So I tend to by most of my console games on ebay, even if they are new and wrapped in. Cause it's noticeably cheaper than going to the local game store.

 

[leSLIe]

ok capitalism is the name of the game !! so that would mean that if we all were to live in a socialist society we all would have a 8800 GTX ?

 

[wee96]

Spoken like a true rich boy But seriously, of course your going to feel this way since you can afford the latest and greatest(sig proves this), you have to remember most people arent as lucky as you. I agree with most of what your saying though.

This thread is surreal. ESPECIALLY since it is on [H]

People cheering a horrific bureacratic monstrosity like the EU fining business hundres of millions of Euros?? (yeah, b/c THAT wont get passed onto the consumer while the govt officials use the money for hookers and coke) People calling for the govt to step in because "video cards are a duopoly" People complaining that there has been "no change in 5 years but prices go up" People claiming the last advancement to GPUs was hardware T&L

I dont even have the energy to go into the inanity of most of these points. All I can say is, last I checked, a high end PC gaming rig was an EXTREME luxury. We arent talking about food and water here people. If you feel that Microsoft and NVidia and Intel and ATI are "raping you" and you are getting "nothing" in return, then STOP BUYING THE PRODUCTS. You arent chemically addicted and you dont need this crap to live. By your OWN admission, you derive nothing new from it. To keep paying money in that case would really be the definition of insanity.

We have such an entitlement society its amazing. Basically, what people are saying is "I WANT ALL THIS STUFF BUT I WANT IT CHEAPER B/C I CANT/WONT SPEND WHAT IT COSTS!!!" So lets not pretend there is no value in this gear, that there has been no advancement in the technology since 2002 and certainly, lets not hide behind complete BS debates about market economies and diminishing returns. The thread exists because people WANT these parts. If there were NO value in the parts, if hardware T&L was all thats changed since the GeForce 2, if games havent advanced since Quake 3, then people wouldnt be bitching and moaning and debating about the prices of an 8800GTX. Put all of that economic know how and passion to use and MAKE some big money and you wont have to care.

Sorry to sound like an ass, but there are plenty of things I want but cant afford. Yet I dont feel that we need the govt to mandate that everyone should be able to drive a Ferrari. Very immature attitude, to be honest.

 

[larkin]

We should all remember that the mfg costs of these behemoth cards is not cheap either... typically companies like Nvidia and ATI do not make their profit margins fat with these uber high end cards.. it's the deals they strike with Dell and other mass-market computer making companies to fit them with medium and low level OEM chips/cards, selling HUGE amounts of that product is what they profit the most from.. the uber high end stuff is kind of mostly good branding and bragging rights.. well, maybe not mostly, but a good part of it is.

Yepp. That's why Intel is the biggest and most successful producer of graphics chips, cause they sell a LOT to OEMs, more than any other manufacturer. nV and ATI make some profit i'm sure from the upper end but it's about image, if you are known to be on the fore front of gfx then you are a more attractive brand to companies like dell, even if they aren't putting in the bleeding edge cards in.