why are people so anal about temp?

w1retap said:
0 degrees Kelvin ftw!!!!!
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You mean for the lose.

Silicon experiences what's known as freezeout below 150 or so Kelvin. The material ceases to be a semiconductor because the dopants no longer have sufficient energy to act as donors or acceptors.
 
lol.. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Ever hear of sarcasm? 0K is absolute zero. rofl.
 
w1retap said:
lol.. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Ever hear of sarcasm? 0K is absolute zero. rofl.
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Thank you for that stunning reply. :p

There are obviously many people who don't know these things, of course. :(
 
mwarps said:
The Arrhenius Equation for diffusion. Git.
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After reading this, I am correct in understanding you think the chemical composition of the silicon wafer is breaking down at 70ºC ? Maybe the aluminum housing is breaking down ? Ah, the ink printed on top maybe ?

"At higher temperatures, the probability that two molecules will collide is higher." Please explain which 2 different types of molecules are colliding inside the core 2 duo.

It was posted that:
Chernobyl1 said:
An increase of 10C approximately halves the life of silicon devices.
Conversely, a decrease of 10C will approximately double the life.
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Where is the source for that? Not a link to an equation you cannot provide the numbers for. You can PM me the answer, so as not to hijack this thread (again)

Everyone knows lower temps the better, what I'm talking about is the kids that cry bloody murder about other people's temps (60ºC) when they are perfectly acceptable real world numbers. They are for reference only.
 
calvieee said:
why are there so many is my temp too high threads all the time?? If your computer is stable n pass prime/othos... then its GOOD. dont be afraid of 60c or whatever.. mine 6400 idles at 55c/ full load around 70c.. but its 100% stable..can pass 12+ hours of othos...been running at 3.4ghz like that for 2 months. my point is, unless ur computer is not stable, dont worry about ur temp unless its 100C
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Maybe people don't want to risk overheating, and frying. Having a CPU borderline burning hot, but gaining a few megahertz, in my opinion, isn't wise.

I would much rather sacrifice a few megahertz, and maintain a cooler temperature.

And the other components in your system are getting the heat given off from the CPU, raising there temperatures... Not a good thing.
 
este said:
After reading this, I am correct in understanding you think the chemical composition of the silicon wafer is breaking down at 70ºC ? Maybe the aluminum housing is breaking down ? Ah, the ink printed on top maybe ?

"At higher temperatures, the probability that two molecules will collide is higher." Please explain which 2 different types of molecules are colliding inside the core 2 duo.

Where is the source for that? Not a link to an equation you cannot provide the numbers for. You can PM me the answer, so as not to hijack this thread (again)

Everyone knows lower temps the better, what I'm talking about is the kids that cry bloody murder about other people's temps (60ºC) when they are perfectly acceptable real world numbers. They are for reference only.
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I can't believe I'm at work and have nothing better to do :rolleyes:

Dopants in semiconductors diffuse. At an amazingly slow rate, but they do diffuse. The higher the temperature of the lattice, the faster the dopants diffuse. The devices that we are talking about are so small now, (32nm? channel length (too lazy to look at the ITRS)) that they can no longer be run at high temperatures (90C? of the Northwood) because the dopants will diffuse across the channels of the transistors and kill them.

I am not going to provide numbers, as I don't have my modeling software with me, nor the diffusion constants, and I don't know which orientation the lattice is in a core2duo.

Suffice it to say that is has been determined that a 10 C rise in temperature approximately doubles the diffusion speed and visa versa.

You also have mobile charge in the gate, and due to gate leakage, more charge might be added and trapped each time the device is turned on and off (think single electron each time, maybe) and this also depends on temperature. The charge is completely miniscule, but again, we are dealing with devices so small that picofarads of capacitance can make a difference.

Not to mention that temperature also plays a minor role in electromigration, which is separate entirely from diffusion and gate charge.


This is not threadjacking, btw, this is the absolute core (bwaha) of why we go nuts about temperature (even if most of us don't know it), unless we do it for e-peen.

I do not know how Intel determined 60C as the magic number, or how long that is supposed to buy you. I personally don't think it's that long. I'm gonna guess about 10 years under ideal conditions at 60C. And obviously, none of these chips are perfectly manufactured. Something that's off by a few nm is going to cause a problem. Not today, not tomorrow, not next month. Maybe next year. Maybe the year after that.
 
Why did the OP post here at all? Flame bait? He claims his E6400 runs at 3.4ghz which I doubt is true without serious overheating. So what is his anal obsession with overclocking a CPU that is designed to run at 2.13GHz? If he is so anal about overclocking his CPU that runs hot, what is wrong with us being anal about temperature? Time to move on to more important matters.
 
direowls said:
If you read the specs carefully, this temp spec is referring to Tcase, or the thermal diode on the IHS. That's different than what Core Temp or TAT measures (they measure from the DTS at the core). Tjunction (or throttling temp) for Conroes is 85C. Thus, this explains the 15-20C discrepancy between some mobo's cpu temp measurements (like ASUS PC Probe) and core temp or TAT and why 70C on core temp is fine, but cutting it really close.

But the point stands: cooler CPU = longer life = lesser chance of dying when you least expect it.
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*clapping* You recieve points for being the first person to read the details.
 
let me ask this. How many people have a stable cpu (pass prime/othoas) but have high load temp (60c to 80c) failed/died suddenly???
my guess ZERO. cpu fail because of high voltage i would think weather than high temp.
stable n high temp equal okie to me. unstable n high temp is what u should try to fix. I m running othoas right now, 71c load on coretemp.. i will run it for 10 plus hours at that temp and post a pic because a few post up doesnt believe my 6400 is at 3.4 n 71c load. thinks that i m just flame bait.
 
Are you drunk? Or really that bad at typing/spelling/grammar?


You were the one that come here flaming people that were concerned about their temps. No one's telling you what to do. If you want to run your E6400 at 95C, I could give a rat's ass. Many people are new to overclocking and come to these forums for advice. I know that if I was overclocking for the first time and saw my temps go from 30C-ish at stock idle to 70C+ overclocked at load, I'd probably run here and ask too.

You an Este are entiteled to your opinions, but you are spewing out bad advice to the uninformed, telling them that temps don't matter.
 
este said:
Right on brotha!

Those little girls that complain about OMGZ T3MPZ 22 HI are the same ones that lie about their own temps, have systems high rpm fans louder then their speakers will go, and/or even better might not even have the chip that your talking about. Temps are not a competition, they're a reference.
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btw, este, I think you just made yourself look like a hypocrite:

este said:
RMA'ed my Allendale (E6400) bc it ran hot and didn't OC great. Just got my Conroe (E6600) today.

Don't know if it'll go any higher, but it sure as hell won't go lower and will probably be cooler.
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Interesting...coming from someone who doesn't care about temps like "Those little girls".
 
Cintirich said:
btw, este, I think you just made yourself look like a hypocrite:


Interesting...coming from someone who doesn't care about temps like "Those little girls".
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Pwned.
 
este said:
Chernobyl1 said:
An increase of 10C approximately halves the life of silicon devices.
Conversely, a decrease of 10C will approximately double the life.
Click to expand...

Where is the source for that? Not a link to an equation you cannot provide the numbers for. You can PM me the answer, so as not to hijack this thread (again)
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Twice you asked this same question and twice you have proved how much of an idiot you want to remain.
Whats wrong with looking up simple facts yourself.

The first time you said this
este said:
cough cough bullshit where is your source cough cough

I don't care what that intel site says, if that were truely the case it would throttle at 60ºc and not 85º.
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Its you thats full of bullshit, you just made up the statement that a cpu would throttle at 60C if my statement were true.
Firstly dont call people when you havent got a clue yourself.
Secondly, get off your lazy ass and do some research!

In a way I wish mwarps hadnt given you the answer as I would have enjoyed watching you make a further idiot of yourself :)
 
calvieee said:
let me ask this. How many people have a stable cpu (pass prime/othoas) but have high load temp (60c to 80c) failed/died suddenly???
my guess ZERO. cpu fail because of high voltage i would think weather than high temp.
stable n high temp equal okie to me. unstable n high temp is what u should try to fix. I m running othoas right now, 71c load on coretemp.. i will run it for 10 plus hours at that temp and post a pic because a few post up doesnt believe my 6400 is at 3.4 n 71c load. thinks that i m just flame bait.
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lol its your kit do what you want.
You arent in a good position to advise anybody about temps though.
And you are correct, you were guessing when you said zero.
I've seen many CPU's and Graphics Cards dead or only able to reach much lower clock speeds after overclocking too far.

The voltage isnt what causes the damage, its the localised heat spots generated by the voltage damaging/changing the silicon enough so that it no longer performs its required function.
This is the principle that allows people with Water Cooling and Refrigeration Cooling to use higher voltages without killing the cpu!

Why dont you see how high a temp your chip can do and still run.
Keep it like that for a few weeks and keep us updated :)
 
Far from pwned.

I rma'd my 6400 b/c its temps were higher then I liked for its overclock. Over 70ºC, which I'm neither worried nor whining about. It was just hindering the oc. My E6600 btw is a much better so far.

The guy who talked about 10ºc and halflifes is full of shit until I see a respectable website with THAT info. Really don't care if you don't have your 'modeling software', or use big words I (an EE) would have never heard before. Its not intimidating in the least. Everyone on these forums is anonymous, you could tell me that you've cured cancer, I'm not going to believe it until I see a creditable source. So, this 10ºc sounds like a well known truth the way you put it, should be easy to find this info somewhere right ?

And Chernobyl1, if 60ºC were the limit, doesn't it make sense it would throttle there? A few people have pointed out that the chart you posted does not mean 60c is the limit. You've already been corrected on this, let it go.

I try and not argue on forums, so if you have anything else to say to me and/or its off topic for this thread just PM me.
 
este said:
The guy who talked about 10ºc and halflifes is full of shit until I see a respectable website with THAT info. Really don't care if you don't have your 'modeling software', or use big words I (an EE) would have never heard before

And Chernobyl1, if 60ºC were the limit, doesn't it make sense it would throttle there? A few people have pointed out that the chart you posted does not mean 60c is the limit. You've already been corrected on this, let it go.

I try and not argue on forums, so if you have anything else to say to me and/or its off topic for this thread just PM me.
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Right, so you start an argument by telling me that I bullshit, then in the above post I am full of shit and then suddenly dont want to argue. lol.
Childish behaviour to start with and then lack of backbone to stand up for yourself.

I'm not going to give you any help in finding out about the 10C rule as quite simply its funny watching you make a further ass of yourself :)
Regarding the 60C throttle point thats something you made up and not worthy of any merit.
You also have me mistaken with someone else as I havent posted any charts.

It seems to me that you want people to believe your uneducated take on the world so you can avoid doing any research.
Stop being so lazy and do something for yourself.
 
este said:
Far from pwned.

I rma'd my 6400 b/c its temps were higher then I liked for its overclock. Over 70ºC, which I'm neither worried nor whining about. It was just hindering the oc. My E6600 btw is a much better so far.

The guy who talked about 10ºc and halflifes is full of shit until I see a respectable website with THAT info. Really don't care if you don't have your 'modeling software', or use big words I (an EE) would have never heard before. Its not intimidating in the least. Everyone on these forums is anonymous, you could tell me that you've cured cancer, I'm not going to believe it until I see a creditable source. So, this 10ºc sounds like a well known truth the way you put it, should be easy to find this info somewhere right ?

And Chernobyl1, if 60ºC were the limit, doesn't it make sense it would throttle there? A few people have pointed out that the chart you posted does not mean 60c is the limit. You've already been corrected on this, let it go.

I try and not argue on forums, so if you have anything else to say to me and/or its off topic for this thread just PM me.
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http://www.overclockers.com/tips30/


Start reading.

Then, get back in your cave troll.



There is a message here - Heat does degrade and in a measurable way. Heat will kill your CPU, and the more heat, the quicker. It should be your objective, overclocking or not, to run your systems at the lowest possible temperature. Whether or not the projected CPU Life coincides with economic life is a decision we each make and obviously impacts what you will tolerate as to how hot your CPU runs.
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/THREAD.
 
Last post, No one is arguing that heat damages chips. Ofcourse heat damages chips!

I'm calling bullshit on the guy who put an exact number (10ºc) as a silicon chips half life. THAT is bullshit no matter how you look at it. Thats all I ever said.
 
este said:
Last post, No one is arguing that heat damages chips. Ofcourse heat damages chips!

I'm calling bullshit on the guy who put an exact number (10ºc) as a silicon chips half life. THAT is bullshit no matter how you look at it. Thats all I ever said.
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lol, all of a sudden heat is an issue, well whodathunkit?

Um, you have a short memory.
Remember this post made to me by you claiming I'm the one spreading bull:
Originally Posted by este
"cough cough bullshit where is your source cough cough"

How about you provide some information to the contrary seeing as you are the only person claiming that the 10C rule doesnt exist?

You are the only one adding bull to the argument, no one ever claimed exactly 10C is the measure taken.
Please re-read what others have posted to you.
Ah, I forgot, reading is not your strongest skill so I'll spell it out for you:

mwarps said
"Suffice it to say that is has been determined that a 10 C rise in temperature approximately doubles the diffusion speed and visa versa."
I said earlier
"An increase of 10C approximately halves the life of silicon devices.
Conversely, a decrease of 10C will approximately double the life."

Note the use of the word "approximately" :)
 
Well, I'm anal about very few things, but getting the most out of an investment is one of them. And maybe I am a "little girl" about it. I am a girl. And this is my first OCd rig, and I built it entirely myself, so I care about it A LOT. Unlike a lot of people, I don't have $300-500 a month to throw around on toys so the ones I do get have to last. So I damn well care about temps and stability, and not frying a brand-new processor.

That being said, my brand new Scythe Ninja dropped my load temps from 62c to under 40c, and well back into the green. 20c drop. I am most pleased. :)
 
darkesnow said:
Well, I'm anal about very few things, but getting the most out of an investment is one of them. And maybe I am a "little girl" about it. I am a girl. And this is my first OCd rig, and I built it entirely myself, so I care about it A LOT. Unlike a lot of people, I don't have $300-500 a month to throw around on toys so the ones I do get have to last. So I damn well care about temps and stability, and not frying a brand-new processor.

That being said, my brand new Scythe Ninja dropped my load temps from 62c to under 40c, and well back into the green. 20c drop. I am most pleased. :)
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I'm with you on every point apart from the girl bit :D
Thats a nice temp drop, what cpu/speed was that and was the temp difference compared with the default heatsink?
 
Just a tiny OC right now, It's an e6700 overclocked to 105% just using the AIBooster that came with my Asus MoBo (p5n32 SLI SE Deluxe, if you're interested).

Now that I have temps down I'm going to push it harder. When I get home tonight (damn you, real life!!) I am going to step it up in 5% increments until I get to a place where I'm happy with it and it's stable.
 
cool(!)
Do tell us what you end up with and of course the temps to keep in line with the thread :)
 
Whats your obsession with chips throttling at 60C? lol. Do you think Intel would release an official statement saying that 60C was the cuttoff for throttling on all chips? Its simply a number based on their tests that states a chip can begin to throttle at those temps. Its the beginning of the danger zone. The number is obviously lower than the true average degree for throttling, this is for legal purposes.

Stop playing so dumb, you go tit for tat but pick weak points at which to argue, Chernobyl gave a great explanation as to how heat effects chips, and every chip is different, and as a result we will all experience slightly different results.

Post in a year running your C2D at 70C, it will probably still be running, maybe not.
What people are telling you is you are shortening the lifetime of your chip via high temps, the effects of which are all relative to the user and his computer setup.
 
It amazes me how people post. Basic grammar is actually a very good idea, especially when you're trying to be taken seriously.

On topic, as people have stated, it is all personal preference. I like my chip running as cool as I can, I don't have the money to buy a new one. If I run this at 75c, I KNOW there is a MUCH greater chance of early death than if I run it at 45c. You raise temperatures primarily through voltage. Think about it. Your clock is requiring more power. Raise the core. Uh oh, the added power makes things warmer.

Ever wonder why, when processors die and things get very ugly, it smokes? It's called 'heat'. Or, in some cases, 'fire' which generates 'heat' and comes from 'heat'.
 
FighterAce124 said:
It amazes me how people post. Basic grammar is actually a very good idea, especially when you're trying to be taken seriously.
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I totally agree. I try not to be a grammar Nazi, but my grief, if I had a nickel for every time I saw someone use bad grammar (and for some reason tech boards seem to be horrible about this - someone needs to get the memo - netspeak is for lamers, newbies, and the uneducated) I'd have a hell of a lot of nickels, and I might be able to buy a new processor every six months so I could run it at 80c with no problems. :D
 
este said:
Far from pwned.

The guy who talked about 10ºc and halflifes is full of shit until I see a respectable website with THAT info. Really don't care if you don't have your 'modeling software', or use big words I (an EE) would have never heard before. Its not intimidating in the least. Everyone on these forums is anonymous, you could tell me that you've cured cancer, I'm not going to believe it until I see a creditable source. So, this 10ºc sounds like a well known truth the way you put it, should be easy to find this info somewhere right ?
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You're an EE but you know absolutely nothing about solid-state/semiconductor physics. This is more than obvious by your demonstration of a total lack of comprehension regarding simple physics terminology. Diffusion is not only a semiconductor concept. You cannot get an EE degree from a respectable institution without taking classes on basic electronics.

Please feel free to pick up any solid-state/semiconductor physics book and there will be any number of chapters regarding what I've covered. I suggest Pierret, Semiconductor Device Fundamentals, or Semiconductor Fundamentals Volume 1. These books describe in great detail, and provide equations for, every single reason (except I think electromigration, sadly) that cooler is better and high voltage isn't a good idea.
You can get those on Amazon, both.

You do not get to dictate the terms of the internet, in that there is not a website with the information contained in those books. The information in those books is subject to copyright and licensing. Just because you can't "get it off a website" doesn't mean it's not hard scientific fact. No engineer worth his calculator would say "show me a link or it's not true". A 13 year old child would, though.
 
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q191/bucketmee/Snap4.jpg
19+ hours of orthos at 74c load... core2 6400@ 3.4ghz
How much longer do i need to go on before my cpu 'cook to death???" I am only telling people not to worry about if 50c or 60c is too hot. If my cpu can run PERFECT for 19+hrs @74c load, i am sure ur full load at 65c or 55c or whatever is FINE. DONT WORRY!!!
Snap4.jpg


*****Why did the OP post here at all? Flame bait? He claims his E6400 runs at 3.4ghz which I doubt is true without serious overheating. So what is his anal obsession with overclocking a CPU that is designed to run at 2.13GHz? If he is so anal about overclocking his CPU that runs hot, what is wrong with us being anal about temperature? Time to move on to more important matters. ****
 
calvieee said:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q191/bucketmee/Snap4.jpg
19+ hours of orthos at 74c load... core2 6400@ 3.4ghz
How much longer do i need to go on before my cpu 'cook to death???" I am only telling people not to worry about if 50c or 60c is too hot. If my cpu can run PERFECT for 19+hrs @74c load, i am sure ur full load at 65c or 55c or whatever is FINE. DONT WORRY!!!
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Again, no one cares if you fry your cpu, but don't come in here and tell people that may not know better that as long as they're stable, heat doesn't matter.

Of course your proc can run for a short period of time at 74C. No one here is disputing that. If you think that running that same cpu at that temp over a long period of time (months/years) isn't going to prematurely end the life of that e6400, you're insane. If you don't care, then fine, but don't try pushing your limited forsight on the rest of us.
 
khanable said:
http://www.overclockers.com/tips30/


/THREAD.
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According to this article thermal cycling is a bigger hazard than high temperatures within spec. Following this principle, one should not only keep the system up 24/7, but also keep it at constant load 24/7, which inevitably needs to be 100%. Seems that Folding not only expands our medical knowledge, but increases the service life of CPUs as well. Excellent :)
 
jon67 said:
According to this article thermal cycling is a bigger hazard than high temperatures within spec. Following this principle, one should not only keep the system up 24/7, but also keep it at constant load 24/7, which inevitably needs to be 100%. Seems that Folding not only expands our medical knowledge, but increases the service life of CPUs as well. Excellent :)
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Also very true. :D
 
I am only telling people to relax and not too worry about their temp. I am not telling everyone to follow me. And if you think that my 6400 will die becauses of high temp over time, you can take that 74c and shove it.


Cintirich said:
Again, no one cares if you fry your cpu, but don't come in here and tell people that may not know better that as long as they're stable, heat doesn't matter.

Of course your proc can run for a short period of time at 74C. No one here is disputing that. If you think that running that same cpu at that temp over a long period of time (months/years) isn't going to prematurely end the life of that e6400, you're insane. If you don't care, then fine, but don't try pushing your limited forsight on the rest of us.
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Most prototype chips are run in... well... the worst possible conditions during RnD testing.

These chips are normally run at 75-80c for months at insane overclocks, in order to get the MTBF values (at least, values they can extrapolate on for regular conditions).

No, you are probably fine running your CPU at 70'c. If it's stable, well, awesome.

Historically, high temps have created instabilities in a chip. My X2, as I said before, Would die at anything over 55'c at 2.66ghz. I took the heat down to mid 40's (watercooling) and it primed for hours at 2.66.

If you're stable at 70'c, I see no real reason to be worried.

Worried is different than obsessed. I'm obsessed over getting good temperatures, because that's my hobby. No architect/construction worker that builds a house is going to say, "Well, the foundation should be stable for at LEAST 30 years if I save a bit of cash and skimp on the concrete" I'm the same way with my processor.

There's PRIDE to be found in running a high clockspeed at low temperatures.

I one degree celcius improvement is just that! AN IMPROVEMENT. One that I can feel good about. It's the thrill of optimizing your system to the next level.
 
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