Why 80 PLUS® is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU @ [H]

[Sovereign]

I think it was probably relevant in the past (assuming PSU efficiency used to be crap--I only built my first serious PC after "80+" came out). Now it's become a marketing tool and not a true method to differentiate power supplies.

 

[nösferatu]

80 PLUS® is Irrelevant???? but the article itself is a 80+ platinum certified by me, well done
Cheers and Beers for the [H]orde.

 

[DarthVain]

4 Things.

1) I use the 80Plus certification as a indication of "better than shit" quality pretty heavily. Mostly do to the fact that it seems most manufacturers repeatedly lie through their teeth about their product. Blatantly. With no consequences. It is also remarkably hard (other than a few exceptions) to find current (pardon pun) and quality reviews of PSU. Thus having some independent body say, that this PSU was at least quality enough to meat some set of specifications was a good idea.

2) I am disappointed, and shouldn't be surprised, that the same companies are trying to cheat this system to their own marketing advantage. It is too bad that the folks that monitor 80Plus do not do a better job of it. It will seriously make me think twice now when I see the certification, which of course it too bad for those that are honest. Though it does put more reliance on branding again. In both cases I would agree that Silverstone (which I owe the 500), and the Corsair (which I have heard mostly positive reviews) are two of the more quality PSU.

3) One thing that should have been mentioned in the article is the amount of "re-branding" that happens in this industry. It is pretty rampant. Where one PSU is made, and then re-branded by 5 different companies and sold as different PSU, when basically the guts are all the same. For me I see the efficiency as simply a sign of quality, the savings, or energy saved is negligible. Really the two best indicators for a PSU are A) can it hit the actual Max under load? and B) how stable are the lines (does it spike or dip when pressed)? In my mind those that honestly pass 80Plus have a better shot at both A and B in my estimation.

4) I think it is awfully funny that whatever Ad intelligence is being used at [H], seeing all the references to "80 Plus" on the page, decided to advertise ALL PSU 80 Plus ads all around the article. Too funny!

 

[MetalX]

Curious side question, Obviously power supplies aren't linearly efficient correct?

So where are most of them most efficient? And shouldn't that matter more on what size PSU you buy? Trying to hit the best efficiency average load?

Still a great effort on HardOCPs part, and really sticking up for the consumer and not letting advertising change that.

Usually 50-60% of their capacity, depending on the unit.

 

[Kluden]

Great editorial. We can only hope that QC efforts would go beyond the manufacturing side, but there is no policing for this kind of thing when its such an international business. Sad but true. One thing the 80plus people could do is when finding a mislabeled unit, that company or OEM must now pay double for the testing of their next 10 units, or something. But then price is just passed on to consumer again in that model.

 

[codeflux]

This article summarizes my gut feeling: labels are worthless, what's important is features and real-world performance and price to me, the consumer. I do and will continue to buy PSUs based on those three criteria, after reading reviews from respectable review sites, such as this one. Thank you [H]!

 

[malih]

Great article, I'll keep it in mind whenever deciding to buy a new PSU..

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I use the 80Plus certification as a indication of "better than shit" quality pretty heavily.

This was the only way I was using it as well. I care about efficiency and all, but I didn't trust the ratings for that purpose. I was using them to get a feel for that at least SOMEONE looked at them, and they are not likely to short/burn up, at least not in the near term.

After reading this article, I see that even that may be asking too much of the certification, since they can send one thing in for testing, and then ship something completely different...

 

[jonnyGURU]

Man, you are such a sellout. You should be subsisting on ramen packets and not shaving like a real nerd.

Who said I'm not?

 

[Zero82z]

Who said I'm not?

Touché.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I think it is time to re-examine the claim that 80-PLUS certifications are "irrelevant". Irrelevant means, "not important", "not connected", "to be dismissed" and "not considered". In 2011 when this article was written, that may have been true. But it is not today.

I am NOT saying 80-PLUS guarantees quality or reliability. And certainly there is the possibility an unscrupulous PSU maker will claim 80-PLUS certification but never submit the supply for testing - so potential buyers must still do their homework.

BUT 80-PLUS certification IS relevant because it promises a relatively flat efficiency curve of at least 80% at 20, 50 and 100% loads (90% efficiency at 10% load too, for Titanium PSUs too).

That is relevant because computers don't typically run at the same load levels all the time. In fact, the loads seen by PSUs are constantly changing.

A PSU that is not 80-PLUS certified may claim an outstanding efficiency rating of "up to" 85%, for example, but if you research carefully, you typically find that is at just one load level, often 100% load. In other words, the efficiency "curve" is not flat, but bell shaped and that is not, in any way, ideal in electronics that pose varying loads, like personal computers.

By their very nature, in electronics, power supplied tend to be inefficient devices, with a peak efficiency at just one or two load levels. This is fine for electronics that present constant loads. But computers don't. Computer loads are constantly changing from minimal when idle, to maximum with heavily tasked.

To achieve the required relatively high and flat efficiency rating for 80-PLUS certification, a PSU must have a better design and use better components. I did not say "top quality" - just better than a basic, generic supply.

IF 80-PLUS certification was "irrelevant", why do the professional review sites, including Hard|OCP test to ensure a PSU meets 80-PLUS compliance? The answer is clear. Because it is relevant!

That is NOT to say 80-PLUS certification on your next PSU is an absolute requirement, but meeting 80-PLUS standards is, or should be. And that makes it relevant. And you start by selecting ("considering") a PSU that is 80-PLUS certified - again making it relevant. Then do your homework and hit the professional review sites to verify the PSU does, meet those standards, because that is "important" - thus relevant.

Like it or not, having that 80-PLUS Certified logo on the box does mean something. If you need a PSU now, with no time to do your homework and research all the professional review sites and you walk into BestBuy, Fry's or Walmart, would you buy a PSU that didn't have that logo?

 

[FrgMstr]

IF 80-PLUS certification was "irrelevant", why do the professional review sites, including Hard|OCP test to ensure a PSU meets 80-PLUS compliance? The answer is clear. Because it is relevant!

Like it or not, having that 80-PLUS Certified logo on the box does mean something. If you need a PSU now, with no time to do your homework and research all the professional review sites and you walk into BestBuy, Fry's or Walmart, would you buy a PSU that didn't have that logo?

Our thoughts that we state in every review:

While 80Plus compliance is NOT part of any official specification for power supplies similar to what is seen with the ATX12v and EPS specifications, it is a widely used advertising talking point that many users seem to use to guide their buying decisions. As such, we will be examining whether units claiming certain 80Plus specifications really meet these advertised levels.

That all said, most units we review barely, if at all, make the actual rating on our test equipment.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Thanks for your [quick!] reply Kyle.

I realize you post that disclaimer in each review (even for non-80 PLUS supplies). But the mere fact you do, makes that certification "relevant" - otherwise, you would not care about it.

And the fact you have found most units fail to achieve that rating makes it significant that you do test for compliance - and report it so consumers have that information and so the manufacturers are put on notice!

I read most of your reviews and it seems to me that more and more recent supplies do meet (even if just barely) the 80-PLUS standards they claim - even with your different testing parameters. I note the recent review of the Cyonic AU-650x 650W you spend a great deal of page 6 real estate discussing how this supply fairs in your 80 PLUS "compliance testing" stating (my bold underline added to emphasize my point),

This puts the unit well inside the 80 Plus Gold standards. This in itself is a great result... .
...the 80 Plus Gold rating for this unit is very plausible on production units as our unit today was easily passing.

You test for 80 PLUS compliance. You say this supply fell "well inside" and "easily passing" 80 Plus Gold "standards".

How are those not "relevant" when it comes to consumers making purchasing decisions?

If you put that much emphasis in your reviews testing for and reporting on how well a supply complies to the 80 PLUS certification standards (and I applaud you for doing so!) then clearly you put at least some significant "relevance" on that 80 PLUS certification.

I note you already test for 25, 50, 75 and 100% loads. I am not asking you change that to 20, 50, and 100 (though I do think you should do something lower than 25% too, but that's for another discussion). I see no reason you cannot extrapolate from your own more rigorous testing and draw "plausible conclusions" whether or not a PSU will comply with 80 PLUS standards - without claiming 80 PLUS certs are irrelevant.

To be sure, as an electronics technician looking at this from a purely technical standpoint, I agree with everything you say. But I am speaking as an advocate for "normal consumers", that is, non-technical users looking to do a little DIY repair or upgrade. And knowing Hard|OCP has determined 80 PLUS compliance is "relevant" enough to test for and report on, AND because (whether we like it or not) 80 PLUS Certification has become thee standard for consumers to look for, then 80 PLUS certification is relevant for the "normal consumer" researching power supplies.

Stating 80 PLUS certification is irrelevant gives the normal user the impression he or she can buy the cheaper, non-certified PSU because the 80-PLUS standards are not important, not to be considered, and irrelevant.

 

[xorbe]

Not here too, at TPU is enough.

Edited- Paul_Johnson

Efficiency is good -- not for $$$ primarily, but keeps my home cooler.

 

[[Spectre]]

I think it is time to re-examine the claim that 80-PLUS certifications are "irrelevant". Irrelevant means, "not important", "not connected", "to be dismissed" and "not considered". In 2011 when this article was written, that may have been true. But it is not today.

Actually, no. 80 Plus certification is less relevant today than it was in 2011 when this was written. I'll look for what the actual word is for less than irrelevant later.

Not least of which because my local electricity costs have not changed since 2011 ( hate to tell folks that but we are still paying ~$0.08) and the national costs have run dead on that of inflation while the market has progressed forward making the metric less relevant than it's previous irrelevancy from a cost perspective.

BUT 80-PLUS certification IS relevant because it promises a relatively flat efficiency curve of at least 80% at 20, 50 and 100% loads (90% efficiency at 10% load too, for Titanium PSUs too).

80 Plus promises you nothing. The product you buy is not used the way 80 Plus certifies a product nor is it the exact same product.

That is relevant because computers don't typically run at the same load levels all the time. In fact, the loads seen by PSUs are constantly changing.

That is how 80 Plus tests the units. At the same static load all the time.

A PSU that is not 80-PLUS certified may claim an outstanding efficiency rating of "up to" 85%, for example, but if you research carefully, you typically find that is at just one load level, often 100% load.

No, it is not often at 100% load. If you were familiar with the actual test results of the units (which you can find here for a large number of units) you would observe what basic physics and electronics tells you. The peak efficiency is not often at 100% load.

IF 80-PLUS certification was "irrelevant", why do the professional review sites, including Hard|OCP test to ensure a PSU meets 80-PLUS compliance? The answer is clear. Because it is relevant!

No, the obvious answer is because it is a testable claim. If the manufacturer of a boat claimed that a boat could float without the engine running and a hole in the hull below the water line that is 3 inches in diameter for 30 minutes in still water in order to help people survive a sinking and we reviewed boats we could test that as well. It doesn't mean it is relevant to actual marine emergencies as rarely are boats sunk by perfect 3 inch diameter holes in still water.

Like it or not, having that 80-PLUS Certified logo on the box does mean something.

Yes, it means someone cut ECOS/ECOVA a check.

If you need a PSU now, with no time to do your homework and research all the professional review sites and you walk into BestBuy, Fry's or Walmart, would you buy a PSU that didn't have that logo?

People do all the time.

I note the recent review of the Cyonic AU-650x 650W you spend a great deal of page 6 real estate discussing how this supply fairs in your 80 PLUS "compliance testing"

Less than three non-formatted sentences is literally an editorial error in the amount I write about each unit.

How are those not "relevant" when it comes to consumers making purchasing decisions?

Simple, if you read the article you are commenting on you will notice that users are extremely unlikely to notice the difference in their TCO nor are likely to ever realize a return on the investment from one unit of one class to another of another class let alone between units of the same class or between one that misses by a percent in one test.

I see no reason you cannot extrapolate from your own more rigorous testing and draw "plausible conclusions" whether or not a PSU will comply with 80 PLUS standards - without claiming 80 PLUS certs are irrelevant.

If you see no reason then you simply don't understand what is being tested. We don't test using 80 Plus's standards in our load tests. You have said time and again that loads are different and efficiencies are different at different loads. Correct, apply that here and then understand that environmental factors alter efficiency levels as well. If you are an electronics technician this is very basic. Look at the AC input voltages use, look at the temperature, look at the load pattern, etc.

Stating 80 PLUS certification is irrelevant gives the normal user the impression he or she can buy the cheaper, non-certified PSU because the 80-PLUS standards are not important, not to be considered, and irrelevant.

That is correct. If two products are equal otherwise and have the corresponding difference in cost between 80 Plus levels or 80 Plus certification the far cheaper, less efficient unit over the normal usage pattern and life span has a lower TCO. That makes it irrelevant to users. Efficiency standards like CAFE and 80 Plus are artificial regulatory market pressures that are not meant to increase the performance of a product in its intended goal only to make them more efficient in the process. As such, when the TCO tips against the artificial standard their irrelevance becomes readily apparent.

If you want to argue a macro-economical scale, go ahead but realize we aren't in the business of subsidizing macro-economic solutions that address a fraction of the real issue.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Clearly I have hit a personal nerve here. That was not my intention. And sadly, several of my comments have been taken out of context, misinterpreted and misrepresented. And there is some misunderstanding about the 80-PLUS certification process.

First, I did not realize everything depended on the cost of electricity in your area. That said, you are lucky to live in an area where electricity costs have not risen. That certainly is not the norm across most of the US as noted here for the last 5 years through 2014 and here for the last year from May 2014 to May 2015 - again, for most of the country, not all. With that, many people are concerned (some, admittedly to extreme tree-hugging levels) with being as "green" and eco-friendly as possible.

I never said 80 PLUS promises anything. In fact I specifically said, "I am NOT saying 80-PLUS guarantees quality or reliability". I am just saying it is here, you test for compliance, and therefore, IMO, it is relevant.

If it NOT, by any means, the only thing to look for in a PSU. ATX compliance is another - though certainly we can agree they allow too much leeway in things like ripple suppression, regulation and even voltage tolerances.

That is how 80 Plus tests the units. At the same static load all the time.

No it's not. They test at 20, 50, and 100% loads, and 10% for Titanium.

No, it is not often at 100% load. If you were familiar with the actual test results of the units (which you can find here for a large number of units) you would observe what basic physics and electronics tells you. The peak efficiency is not often at 100% load.

See, this has NOTHING to do with what I said. I don't understand why you are twisting my comments around. I am very aware of the Laws of Physics and how it applies to electron flow. Please note that I said, and you quoted me - that they (the PSU makers) "may claim" a high efficiency, often at 100%. I NEVER said for any PSU the peak efficiency will be at 100% load.

Yes, it means someone cut ECOS/ECOVA a check.

True, they have to pay ECOS, but they also have to submit the supply for testing. If the supplied fails to meet 80-PLUS standards, the unit fails testing and it can not be 80-PLUS certified. They pay to be tested in the hopes of being certified. And you noted yourself, ECOS tests the units, only you said only at one constant load, which again, is incorrect.

People do all the time.

And that makes it okay?

Perfect 3 inch holes? ??? That makes no sense here. IF the current industry standard calls for testing how long a water craft remains afloat with a perfect 3" hole in still water, then testing for that is relevant. Of course in real life scenarios a perfect 3" hole is highly unlikely but that is not the point of the test, is it? Real life scenario testing is impractical because there are just too many variables. A perfect 3" simply "simulates" how long the craft stays afloat with a hole the area of ~7 square inches in it hull.

That is no less realistic than you testing at a perfect 25, 50, 75 and 100% loads or 80 PLUS testing 20, 50, and 100%. They are just as arbitrary as a perfect 3 inch hole, but for testing purposes that is what you have too do.

****

Clearly you still believe 80 PLUS certification is irrelevant and I am not going to change that - this in spite of the fact it has become, whether any of us like it not, the de facto industry standard for consumers to use in comparing PSU efficiencies. So be it.

Once again, I had no intention to incite any personal feelings here or to invite any personal affronts. I am sorry that happened anyway. Good day.

 

[FrgMstr]

Clearly I have hit a personal nerve here. That was not my intention. And sadly, several of my comments have been taken out of context, misinterpreted and misrepresented. And there is some misunderstanding about the 80-PLUS certification process.

No one's feelings are hurt here, you are simply wrong on that being "clear." You put forth YOUR opinion of why our opinion is wrong. We addressed those specific points. Sorry you feel as though this is something personal, it is not. Sorry we did not roll over and say, "You know what, you are correct, our views are all wrong."

If you would like to pen your own opinion on your own website, I will happily give you a link on the front news page and we can let the rest of HardForum goers chime in whether your views are wrong or right.

 

[FrgMstr]

Clearly you still believe 80 PLUS certification is irrelevant and I am not going to change that - this in spite of the fact it has become, whether any of us like it not, the de facto industry standard for consumers to use in comparing PSU efficiencies. So be it.

That is your opinion and you are welcomed to it. I would however point out that HardOCP is an "enthusiast PC hardware" website. You are arguing your point for the uninformed consumer roaming the aisles at Best Buy. That is not who we focus our opinions or reviews on. I think it is a given that anyone that takes the time to read a 8 or 9 page PSU review is not that person relying on 80 Plus to make their purchasing decision for them. So is 80 Plus relevant for the uninformed consumer? Yes, I would totally agree with you, but that person is in no way part of the HardOCP audience. Your arguments have merit, you are simply sharing those with the wrong demographic.

We address 80 Plus ratings because it is a marketing claim made by the ODM, the same as we test marketing statements by many ODMs across the PC hardware spectrum.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Sorry you feel as though this is something personal, it is not. Sorry we did not roll over and say, "You know what, you are correct, our views are all wrong."

Sorry but some of the replies sure feel personal, as though I poked a raw nerve with a sharp stick - again, not my intention and I did not expect anyone to just roll over. But I was hoping there would be more consideration of the points I made - if for no other reasons than because the enthusiast demographic is but a tiny percentage of PC users, and because the 80-PLUS standards have, whether we like it or not, become industry standards in which review sites, like yours, test for compliance.

I did say from a technical standpoint, I agreed with everything you said. But that I was being an advocate for the normal consumer. But you have stressed the normal consumer is not your intended audience. I wonder where they are supposed to go for information then? The product packaging? Amazon?

So is 80 Plus relevant for the uninformed consumer? Yes, I would totally agree with you,

Thanks. I sincerely appreciate this - very much!

but that person is in no way part of the HardOCP audience. Your arguments have merit, you are simply sharing those with the wrong demographic.

Again much appreciated and I understand now this is where I clearly erred. But I have to say, I don't understand limiting your content only for enthusiasts - only to people who already know and understand the ins and outs of how the PSU industry markets their products.

The PC market is in serious decline thanks to more and more users moving to notebooks and smartphones and such. It just seems a bit odd to me site owners would want to limit site growth to a dwindling segment of the population.

Where else is someone else to go? The user who doesn't want to pay a shop but who wants a good PSU has very few options for information, other than technical review sites. There are many more advanced users who are not enthusiasts but willing and able to upgrade or to replace their own a failed PSU. Because let's face it, replacing a PSU is one of the easiest tasks, picking the right PSU is the challenge. Do they go to the geek squad or Wal-mart sales clerk?

Should they just buy a PSU that could not even achieve 80-PLUS standard (white) certification? How would they know if not to look for the 80 PLUS logo?

Does Bing Google only send enthusiasts here? No. Should there be a banner at the top of every review here that says if not an enthusiasts, this review is not for you? No.

Car and Driver is certainly a car enthusiast magazine/site but does that not mean someone thinking about a SUV or mini-van - someone who also needs a well built and reliable product - shouldn't read the reviews too?

No need to respond and address this further - I guess I am really just thinking out loud now and I accept your position you wish to keep this site focused on this "niche" market of enthusiasts only - there no need for either side to keep beating a dead horse.

And do please note I said before I personally read most of your reviews, and have for the nearly 10 years since I first found and joined this site. I would not if I thought they were not professionally done or "not to be considered".

Sorry again and have a great day.

 

[FrgMstr]

Sorry but some of the replies sure feel personal, as though I poked a raw nerve with a sharp stick - again, not my intention and I did not expect anyone to just roll over. But I was hoping there would be more consideration of the points I made - if for no other reasons than because the enthusiast demographic is but a tiny percentage of PC users, and because the 80-PLUS standards have, whether we like it or not, become industry standards in which review sites, like yours, test for compliance.

I did say from a technical standpoint, I agreed with everything you said. But that I was being an advocate for the normal consumer. But you have stressed the normal consumer is not your intended audience. I wonder where they are supposed to go for information then? The product packaging? Amazon?

Thanks. I sincerely appreciate this - very much!
Again much appreciated and I understand now this is where I clearly erred. But I have to say, I don't understand limiting your content only for enthusiasts - only to people who already know and understand the ins and outs of how the PSU industry markets their products.

The PC market is in serious decline thanks to more and more users moving to notebooks and smartphones and such. It just seems a bit odd to me site owners would want to limit site growth to a dwindling segment of the population.

Where else is someone else to go? The user who doesn't want to pay a shop but who wants a good PSU has very few options for information, other than technical review sites. There are many more advanced users who are not enthusiasts but willing and able to upgrade or to replace their own a failed PSU. Because let's face it, replacing a PSU is one of the easiest tasks, picking the right PSU is the challenge. Do they go to the geek squad or Wal-mart sales clerk?

Should they just buy a PSU that could not even achieve 80-PLUS standard (white) certification? How would they know if not to look for the 80 PLUS logo?

Does Bing Google only send enthusiasts here? No. Should there be a banner at the top of every review here that says if not an enthusiasts, this review is not for you? No.

Car and Driver is certainly a car enthusiast magazine/site but does that not mean someone thinking about a SUV or mini-van - someone who also needs a well built and reliable product - shouldn't read the reviews too?

No need to respond and address this further - I guess I am really just thinking out loud now and I accept your position you wish to keep this site focused on this "niche" market of enthusiasts only - there no need for either side to keep beating a dead horse.

And do please note I said before I personally read most of your reviews, and have for the nearly 10 years since I first found and joined this site. I would not if I thought they were not professionally done or "not to be considered".

Sorry again and have a great day.

To address some of your points above:

If we took this personally, we would have stopped doing it a long time ago.

Sorry that you think your points were not considered. Not to be flippant, but it is not the first time we have heard these arguments, so there is not much for us to mull over when we know the answers. That said, I think Paul and I have taken a lot of time to personally address your thoughts in a very specific manner. Should you want to meet in North Texas and buy me a beer, I would be happy to give you more personal time.

Normal consumers go to hardware enthusiasts if they are smart.

Normal consumers do not read PSU reviews. Therefore we do not spend money on writing content for them. These pages and pages of content every day do not happen for free when you are getting as granular as we do.

Work me up a full business model on how you think we should combat "the PC market in serious decline" and I will give that a read. I have no idea how you are supposed to grow a PC enthusiast site when as you put it, is a dwindling segment of the population.

We have built a system for the uniformed consumer. www.PCHound.com They just want to be told what to buy, not a review of what might be bought.

You have a lot of questions about regular consumers that I am not equipped to answer. But let me know if you want to devote a lot of resources to fixing that situation and I will give it press.

Obviously you don't like our site model. Well you know what, I don't care what you think about it. Please go fix someone else's website business model.

Thinking outloud? I would agree with you there.

No apologies needed. We are the largest independently owned hardware site in the world. It is a daily event that I get told that I am doing it wrong from people that have zero experience in the business.

 

[[Spectre]]

Just to clarify a couple of details since I was out and they were directed at my reply.

First, I did not realize everything depended on the cost of electricity in your area.

No, they don't. Please read what was written again.

I said

and the national costs have run dead on that of inflation while the market has progressed forward making the metric less relevant than it's previous irrelevancy from a cost perspective.

Inflation is a normal market force and has NOTHING to do with electricity costs by itself. If you are going to complain that inflation occurs then you should frequent an investment or macroeconomic forum instead as that is outside our purview.

That said, you are lucky to live in an area where electricity costs have not risen. That certainly is not the norm across most of the US as noted here for the last 5 years through 2014 and here for the last year from May 2014 to May 2015 - again, for most of the country, not all. With that, many people are concerned (some, admittedly to extreme tree-hugging levels) with being as "green" and eco-friendly as possible.

The EIA data clearly shows that the cost of electricity is DOWN June 2015 versus June 2014. Further, if you actually look through the EIA data you will notice that in the 2011 data the average cost was $12.06 (data was not available when the article was written so I used 2010 final data when people asked AND you should never use a single month's data but rather a year or rolling 12 month) in that month versus $12.93 in the same month this year. If you look at annualized inflation in the United States you will see for the the intervening time between the article and today for full years the inflation rates have been (depending on whose exact calculations use as some have it as high as 3%) ~2.1%, 1.5%, and 1.6% (plus this years) making that change in the last 4 years just about bang on general inflation.

I never said 80 PLUS promises anything. In fact I specifically said, "I am NOT saying 80-PLUS guarantees quality or reliability". I am just saying it is here, you test for compliance, and therefore, IMO, it is relevant.

Yes, you did say that 80 Plus promises you something. You said it promises you a flat curve (which wouldn't be a curve ). It does not promise you that. It simple says the non-retail, non-final product we tested in an artificial set of parameters did X. Unfortunately, as we have seen time and again, that doesn't mean anything. On top of that, the numbers provided as baseline are baseline...so if I have a unit that is 82%-89%-82% efficient that unit is just as much a Bronze unit as a unit that was 82%-85%-82% or a unit that was 82%-89%-87%. 80 Plus did not guarantee me a flat efficiency curve or even a comparable one between the three units.

See, this has NOTHING to do with what I said. I don't understand why you are twisting my comments around. I am very aware of the Laws of Physics and how it applies to electron flow. Please note that I said, and you quoted me - that they (the PSU makers) "may claim" a high efficiency, often at 100%. I NEVER said for any PSU the peak efficiency will be at 100% load.

Ok, that is still incorrect. They don't often claim at 100%, they claim it at ~50% and typically say "up to".

True, they have to pay ECOS, but they also have to submit the supply for testing. If the supplied fails to meet 80-PLUS standards, the unit fails testing and it can not be 80-PLUS certified.

The hand picked and often modified test sample. Not a retail product. Until retail products are tested that are separate from the vendor the only thing the cert means is they cut them a check as you can see retail samples often fail.

And you noted yourself, ECOS tests the units, only you said only at one constant load, which again, is incorrect.

You need to slow down and understand context and what is written. I said static because I was responding to you and it was correct. You said PC's are not a static load which is correct. Disk drives spin up, CPU load changes, GPU load changes, etc. 80 Plus however, does not do dynamic testing. They set a 20% load that they generate a data point from and by definition keeping the exact same load and load distribution for a set period of time is static (there is no slew in the testing.). Which does not happen in a PC.

And that makes it okay?

Of course. There are lots of reasons to buy a product or a power supply beyond one artificially inflated metric. I work with power supplies all the time, and the very last thing I would consider is the efficiency of the unit because I do this all the time, I see the units, I run the numbers, and I know the applications I am using them in. Efficiency is simply too small a component for the environments they get used in to start off with "I have to buy an 80 Plus Gold/Platinum/Etc" power supply rather than the relevant characteristics. If after meeting what I am looking for it happens to be an efficient unit, great but I still am not going to care about the 80 Plus badge because I know it is not realistic.

Perfect 3 inch holes? ??? That makes no sense here. IF the current industry standard calls for testing how long a water craft remains afloat with a perfect 3" hole in still water, then testing for that is relevant. Of course in real life scenarios a perfect 3" hole is highly unlikely but that is not the point of the test, is it? Real life scenario testing is impractical because there are just too many variables. A perfect 3" simply "simulates" how long the craft stays afloat with a hole the area of ~7 square inches in it hull.

No, it does not simulate that at ALL. And no it is not relevant because those conditions never occur and that is precisely the problem with the example I constructed and 80 Plus (beyond the cheating, the lack of follow up by ECOS/ECOVA, and the lack of financial sense).

That is no less realistic than you testing at a perfect 25, 50, 75 and 100% loads or 80 PLUS testing 20, 50, and 100%. They are just as arbitrary as a perfect 3 inch hole, but for testing purposes that is what you have too do.

Yes it most certainly is less realistic. Please reread the actually testing procedures for both as you are missing most of how it works.

Once again, I had no intention to incite any personal feelings here or to invite any personal affronts. I am sorry that happened anyway. Good day.

You incited nothing or invited any personal affronts other than to the other poster who you started calling names. That is person you should be apologizing to.

 

[kensiko]

Wow this is an old article ! I completely forgot posting here.

FYI, I'm still completely satisfied with my Kingwin Platinum, still running rock solid.

 

[zaniix]

Wow this is an old article ! I completely forgot posting here.

FYI, I'm still completely satisfied with my Kingwin Platinum, still running rock solid.

But do you only think you are satisfied because it has a Platinum rating?

 

[kensiko]

Not only.

I'm satisfied because I never was able to hear it and it has been flawless since 4 years.

 

[FrgMstr]

Wow this is an old article ! I completely forgot posting here.

FYI, I'm still completely satisfied with my Kingwin Platinum, still running rock solid.

That was certainly a Diamond in the Rough that did not get the attention it deserved because of its Kingwin branding.

 

[kensiko]

Yes I read a lot about it and I think it was here that I found the deepest review.

The company seems to have left the power supply business. They probably didn't sell enough because they were good enough to last years !

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Yeah, this exposé back when it was released changed how I buy power supplies.

I never thought the small differences in efficiency where a big deal, but I trusted 80+ PSU's more because I was under the impression they were of higher quality and thus less likely to burst into flames or kill my components.

These days I make sure the H has reviewed the model (or a related one in the same family) before buying.

Currently I am rocking an older Silvrstone Strider Gold 1200 watt version from 2011, after the H favorably reviewed another model in the same family.

Even so, sometimes there is no way of knowing if the companies cherry pick the review samples they send out.

Only way to know for sure would be for a reviewer to buy a good sample size (30+) of them retail and test, and that's never going to happen.

It's always a danger to draw a conclusion from a sample size of 1, especially when the source of that one sample has a conflict of interest

 

[Deleted member 93354]

Did anyone make the argument that "The PSU fan is one of the noisiest components in your system. And generally speaking the more efficient a unit is, the less waste heat has to be vented and therefore LIKELY less fan noise as well."

I purchased my Corsair AX850 for this very reason. Enough power to expand and still stay relatively quiet.

 

[Tsumi]

Did anyone make the argument that "The PSU fan is one of the noisiest components in your system. And generally speaking the more efficient a unit is, the less waste heat has to be vented and therefore LIKELY less fan noise as well."

I purchased my Corsair AX850 for this very reason. Enough power to expand and still stay relatively quiet.

Except 80+ is almost entirely irrelevant to how efficient retail units perform, there is more to how quiet a PSU is than just efficiency, and almost all modern 850 watt units (including bronze units) with properly calibrated thermal systems are essentially silent at all loads. Especially in modern cases where PSUs draw air from outside.

 

[GeorgeHR]

It is THIS reason alone, that I continue to visit HardOCP. The reviews are valuable in assisting users in making an educated purchasing decision. I don't believe they are meant for people to just blindly go on the words of the reviewer, but to incorporate their experience into you own thought.

Information does not make one educated.

I use a certain brand and size of power supply, because I have a history of them working. They might not be available - it has been a long time since I purchased a power supply.

For most consumers the cost difference between power supplies may be more than the cost of the power used. I would estimate about $5/year savings moving from 70% to 80%.

Our server peaks out at 125w 24/7. So I am looking at an annual cost of $120/year. $12/year savings is not important for me.

Our notebooks and tables don't give a choice of power supplies.

 

[[Spectre]]

I NEVER said it did! Why are you implying I did???

Please stop and read what was written again in context. You didn't say anything, I pointed out to you where the price increase came from overall since you were unable to determine why the cost had increased.

You said, I pointed out that the national average has risen over the last 5 years.

STOP quoting me out of context. You are truncating the "and" with the text that followed

and the national costs have run dead on that of inflation while the market has progressed forward making the metric less relevant than it's previous irrelevancy from a cost perspective.

So, do NOT quote that truncated again, leave it in context.

Even if that is or is not related to inflation, so what???

Because that is a natural broad market force. If electricity rates were orders of magnitude higher than inflation you would have a point but since all prices rose you might as well complain about the cost of the paperboard that went into the packaging of the power supply since that went up as well.

Wages are not keeping up with the cost of living! So we (most of us anyway) are paying more for electricity!

Pick a statistic because you argue you aren't.

Not to mention we are paying more for food, Internet access, cell service, medicines, medical care, insurance and more.

Yes, it is called inflation. Those are part of the basket of goods or excluded due to their volatility when calculating CPI.

At least gas prices are dropping, but so are our 401Ks.

If your 401k is dropping since 2011 you are poorly invested , maybe you should switch to an index fund?

Out of context again!

No Bill, it was not out of context. I quoted your entire sentence you were just incorrect. 80 Plus does NOT guarantee you a relatively flat efficiency curve as I illustrated.

Come on Paul! I don't just make stuff up! You are not awarded MVP 9 years in a row for making stuff up when giving advice!

Bill, you are incorrect in this case.

Apex AL-8250SFX - Efficiency: 65% at full load​

That doesn't say anything about a high efficiency at 100%, it lists an efficiency at 100%. That isn't the same thing.

Rosewill SL-300TFX 300W - 70% min. under max. range load

Did you read that? It says 70% MIN. Min is an abbreviation for minimum. They aren't advertising the high.

Dynapower DP 300W - >68% @ full load

Again, that doesn't say anything about a high efficiency at 100%, it lists an efficiency at 100%. That isn't the same thing.

So, how about you look at some examples that actually give you data?

Here for instance
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTQzMzIwMTYyMnJsU3lpcVVSclFfMl8zX2wuanBn
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTQxOTM2MTcwOEFzN0pyZUZ0NFlfMl8zX2wuanBn
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTQwNjYwNTYxMUFlQWFVRHBYU2FfMl80X2wuanBn (here we even have a typical)
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTQwNTI3NTQwMnlna3VYWG53Z3VfMl8zX2wuanBn

I could literally do that all day long given what I do.

My point was, and still is that if the 80-PLUS logo is on the box, you can be pretty certain the supply is "at least" 80% efficient at 20, 50 and 100% loads. And that is important, significant, and relevant!

But it doesn't and it is not. Look at the actual data again.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Wow. I say some PSU makers may list at 100% load, you say I am wrong. So I list 3 that say show it and you say that is wrong. I guess "full load" is not 100% to you so I give. You win.

Have a good day.

 

[FrgMstr]

Wow. I say some PSU makers may list at 100% load, you say I am wrong. So I list 3 that say show it and you say that is wrong. I guess "full load" is not 100% to you so I give. You win.

Have a good day.

Not really sure what that has to do with the overall discussion, but whatever. The fact is that we are sticking with our stance for the HardOCP readership and do not see it as our responsibility to test PSU in a certain way or report on that for the uninformed consumer that you are championing here. Feel free to carry the torch for the unwashed masses. That all said, I have a SunMoon 8800 for sale if you would care to start testing PSUs yourself. And I am serious about that...

 

[Bill_Bright]

Not really sure what that has to do with the overall discussion

???

I said, "they (the PSU makers) "may claim" a high efficiency, often at 100%"

Paul says "I" am wrong and "No, it is not often at 100% load".

I said again, that makers "may claim" it often at 100%.

He again says, that "I" am wrong.

So I show 3 links showing where the makers "claim" 100% or full load. I did not say I claim 100%. I said "the makers" make those claims.

But Paul comes back again and says "I" am wrong!!!!

So I guess I hacked each of those sites and redirected you to my darknet counterfeit pages where it contained information I made it up.

There is no logical way to debate that kind of thinking - where I am said to be wrong about what the makers "claim"! Even when I show actual links to those claims. And because I don't want to get another infraction, or worse being banned for defending myself against another personal attack that adds no technical contribution to the discussion, then there is no use me discussing it further here.

and do not see it as our responsibility to test PSU in a certain way or report on that

I never once suggested you change how you test your PSUs. Never - not once. I didn't once ask that you report on anything either.

But to that, it seems to me if you feel 80-PLUS certification is irrelevant, you should be totally ignoring 80-PLUS completely. But instead YOU have decided to compare your test results to the 80-PLUS standards and report in your reviews if a supply complies to the 80-PLUS standards or not. If something was so irrelevant as you claim it to be, I just don't understand why so much importance is put on it that you feel it necessary in your reviews to (1) compare your test results to the 80-PLUS standards to see if a supply complies to the standards then (2) report on that compliance in your reviews.

Now this discussion has gone way off topic and I apologize for my part in that. I started this line of discussion by simply stating, "I think it is time to re-examine the claim that 80-PLUS certifications are "irrelevant". " That has been done. The last word is yours.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Did anyone make the argument that "The PSU fan is one of the noisiest components in your system. And generally speaking the more efficient a unit is, the less waste heat has to be vented and therefore LIKELY less fan noise as well."

I purchased my Corsair AX850 for this very reason. Enough power to expand and still stay relatively quiet.

I honestly can't say I've had a noisy PSU in decades.

Back in the day, certainly, but these days? Even with quiet case fans and PWM controlled CPU and GPU fans that spin down to almost nothing when idle, I don't recall hearing any PSU in recent memory.

Maybe I just buy better PSU's than I used to?

 

[Dangman]

I honestly can't say I've had a noisy PSU in decades.

Back in the day, certainly, but these days? Even with quiet case fans and PWM controlled CPU and GPU fans that spin down to almost nothing when idle, I don't recall hearing any PSU in recent memory.

Maybe I just buy better PSU's than I used to?

Definitely that. I unfortunately have to work with low quality PSUs and those can be fairly or relatively loud. Even when they have 120mm fans. Usual suspects of course for shitty quality PSUs.

 

[[Spectre]]

???

I said, "they (the PSU makers) "may claim" a high efficiency, often at 100%"

Paul says "I" am wrong and "No, it is not often at 100% load".

I said again, that makers "may claim" it often at 100%.

He again says, that "I" am wrong.

Bill STOP misrepresenting what you have previously said and what I have said in reply. Your exact quote was:

A PSU that is not 80-PLUS certified may claim an outstanding efficiency rating of "up to" 85%, for example, but if you research carefully, you typically find that is at just one load level, often 100% load.

You were wrong as I detailed above as it is not often and it is not an outstanding (of up to 85%) or peak efficiency they are claiming even in your examples.

 

[xorbe]

Hahaha I tried to warn you guys about B_B.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Gee whiz Paul! I am not trying to be insulting here, but why can't you follow what I said? I am not misrepresenting what I said. I am repeating it because you are not following.

I said it repeatedly, and you keep quoting me, and you still don't get it!

I said, "makers may claim". I provided links to 3 makers who claim. And instead of you saying they are wrong, you say I am wrong! ??? I was just showing you what they said!!!!! I did not make the claims! They did! I was point that out! I did not say I agreed with them!

Hahaha I tried to warn you guys about B_B.

And yet another post that contributes nothing to the discussion.

I am done here. I am unsubscribing so I promise you can say what you want and have the last word and once again claim I am wrong for something I am NOT claiming.

 

[FrgMstr]

You guys are funny.